Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Victorian]

Just now, Lord BJ said:

Don’t see it the same 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Plans with no strategy incredibly common occurrence tbh. 
 

 

 

If it was simply governments we're talking about then maybe.   But I think it's fanciful to believe the scientific advisors aren't working to any strategy.   

 

But we'll no doubt just need to wait and see.

[vegas-voss]

8 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Sounds right. . Belgium has had the highest death rate per head in Europe so the obvious one to follow.

🤣 Sorry couldn't help but laugh it's so true

[Norm]

I get that the cases are increasing fast. But deaths are still very, very low. Certainly the mortality rate appears to be a hell of a lot lower than it was initially when you compare cases versus deaths. 

 

Personally, I think another lockdown at this stage is being a bit premature. 

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Why’s it fanciful?
 

They are scientist, planning and strategy isn’t their strength or what they do.🤷🏻‍♂️ They have all been very clear from Witty to Ferguson they provide advise, not develop strategy, 

They only have insight into one aspect to this crisis,  they are not looking at bigger pictures in terms of economics etc. They are just another expert in a myriad of experts advising. That’s why they are only advisors as their expertise lies in a specific area.

 

The scientist will not develop any strategy they will advise at govt, along with economist etc etc,  will develop strategy. It’s the govt job not the scientists or medical to develop strategy. 
 

Interestingly, the one country I do know that as removed politics due to their constitution, requiring them to and default to their public health experts and follow their advice is Sweden. I’m sure there are other countries just don’t know them. Though I do find mildly interesting the country that removed politics from it took a different strategy 

 

Of course they can strategise.   While they advise and no not decide things,  they can offer advice in terms of a strategy.    Whether it's adopted or not is down to the government.

 

 

[CavySlaveJambo]

32 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Hopefully all towards something specific,   vaccine shaped.

Or Treatments too. 

 

19 minutes ago, Normthebarman said:

Certainly the mortality rate appears to be a hell of a lot lower than it was initially when you compare cases versus deaths. 

 

Compare the case demographics in in March - June to the demographics now. 

 

And then look at the groups who are high risk.  
 

Death Rates in an age group who are not at the same level of risk as a different age group are always going to be lower. 

[Ray Gin]

58 minutes ago, Adam_the_legend said:

The restrictions in Sweden were much less draconian than the UK and elsewhere so how they behaved would be relative. My understanding is Sweden just cracked on as normal with a few small adjustments to shield the vulnerable, pretty easy to follow. 

 

Life was far from just cracking on like normal in Sweden

 

1. Cinema chains closed

2. The country's main ski operator closed all facilities

3. Their hospitality industry has seen an increase of businesses going into adminstration of 1400%

4. People were told to work from home where possible.

5. Gatherings of over 50 were banned

6. Bars and restaurants had a table-only service

7. People were told to avoid public transport where possible

8. People over 70 were told to avoid contact with others

9. People were told to avoid non-essential travel of greater than 2 hours

10. People were told to socially distance and keep away from others wherever possible

11. Shops could only let limited numbers in at any one time and were required to take steps to reduce social contact

 

 

Basically much the same as we had here in Phrase 3 until the recent tighter restrictions.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Ray Gin

[Francis Albert]

14 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Life was far from just cracking on like normal in Sweden

 

1. Cinema chains closed

2. The country's main ski operator closed all facilities

3. Their hospitality industry has seen an increase of businesses going into adminstration of 1400%

4. People were told to work from home where possible.

5. Gatherings of over 50 were banned

6. Bars and restaurants had a table-only service

7. People were told to avoid public transport where possible

8. People over 70 were told to avoid contact with others

9. People were told to avoid non-essential travel of greater than 2 hours

10. People were told to socially distance and keep away from others wherever possible

 

Basically much the same as we had here in Phrase 3 until the recent tighter restrictions.

Not the whole story or indeed anything like the real story.. Schools remained open for everyone below 16. Bars and restaurants remained open. Industry and business continued to operate to a much greater extent than elsewhere. The economy was not trashed to anything like the same extent. People carried on living their lives much more normally.

The Swedish approach was widely  ridiculed as was anyone who suggested that it was an alternative model that was at least worth keeping an eye on.

Now apparently it was much the same as everywhere else.

It wasn't. It was almost universally seen as an outlier.

Too soon to say it will turn.out better in the long run but the fact history is being rewritten suggests the odds in its favour have narrowed.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Francis Albert

[Ray Gin]

8 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Not the whole story or indeed anything like the real story.. Schools remained open for everyone below 16. Bars and restaurants remained open. Industry and business continued to operate to a much greater extent than elsewhere. The economy was not trashed to anything like the same extent. People carried on living their lives much more normally.

The Swedish approach was widely  ridiculed as was anyone who suggested that it was an alternative model that was at least worth keeping an eye on.

Now apparently it was much the same as everywhere else.

It wasn't. It was almost universally seen as an outlier.

Too soon to say it will turn.out better in the long run but the fact history is being rewritten suggests the odds in its favour have narrowed.

 

It was much the same as our Phase 3, like I said if you'd read my whole post.

 

A few weeks of similar measures in the UK and cases rocketed again.

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Ray Gin

[Adam_the_legend]

33 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Life was far from just cracking on like normal in Sweden

 

1. Cinema chains closed

2. The country's main ski operator closed all facilities

3. Their hospitality industry has seen an increase of businesses going into adminstration of 1400%

4. People were told to work from home where possible.

5. Gatherings of over 50 were banned

6. Bars and restaurants had a table-only service

7. People were told to avoid public transport where possible

8. People over 70 were told to avoid contact with others

9. People were told to avoid non-essential travel of greater than 2 hours

10. People were told to socially distance and keep away from others wherever possible

11. Shops could only let limited numbers in at any one time and were required to take steps to reduce social contact

 

 

Basically much the same as we had here in Phrase 3 until the recent tighter restrictions.

fair point but compared to the UK that’s a massive difference. Relatively small adjustments compared with our economy crashing, education ruining approach. 

[Weakened Offender]

37 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Life was far from just cracking on like normal in Sweden

 

1. Cinema chains closed

2. The country's main ski operator closed all facilities

3. Their hospitality industry has seen an increase of businesses going into adminstration of 1400%

4. People were told to work from home where possible.

5. Gatherings of over 50 were banned

6. Bars and restaurants had a table-only service

7. People were told to avoid public transport where possible

8. People over 70 were told to avoid contact with others

9. People were told to avoid non-essential travel of greater than 2 hours

10. People were told to socially distance and keep away from others wherever possible

11. Shops could only let limited numbers in at any one time and were required to take steps to reduce social contact

 

 

Basically much the same as we had here in Phrase 3 until the recent tighter restrictions.

 

You're spoiling it for the internet know-alls. 😁

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Maybe we need to go back a phase 

[Costanza]

For Deaths per population,  Sweden is currently 11th highest worldwide with approximately 570 per million.

Denmark, next door to Sweden is 48th with approximately 110 deaths per million.

Both economies suffered approximately the same downturn in GDP (7.7 and 7.8%).

Shouldn't we have copied Denmark?

 

 

 

[Bull's-eye]

Should have copied The Falkland Islands.

[spirt of 98]

2 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Confirmed by who, Bojo the clown 

Typical idiot type response. 

[Nucky Thompson]

2 hours ago, The Roller said:

It’s a legitimate name change.

Aye. I now see it's the same clown with a different name 

[Francis Albert]

25 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

It was much the same as our Phase 3, like I said if you'd read my whole post.

 

A few weeks of similar measures in the UK and cases rocketed again.

 

Phase 3? When we relaxed the restrictions  Sweden didn't impose?

 

[Ray Gin]

11 minutes ago, Adam_the_legend said:

fair point but compared to the UK that’s a massive difference. Relatively small adjustments compared with our economy crashing, education ruining approach. 

 

They could take a more measured approach. We had 10 times the number of cases they did when we locked down. They are also helped by many people already working remotely and more than half of the households in the country being single-person - that's around 20% more than the UK. (sauce: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/DDN-20170905-1?inheritRedirect=true)

[Ray Gin]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Phase 3? When we relaxed the restrictions  Sweden didn't impose?

 

 

 

Keep up with what is actually being said.

 

[spirt of 98]

1 hour ago, Adam_the_legend said:

The restrictions in Sweden were much less draconian than the UK and elsewhere so how they behaved would be relative. My understanding is Sweden just cracked on as normal with a few small adjustments to shield the vulnerable, pretty easy to follow. 

Folk in Sweden chose to social distance themselves. Over here we can’t even do it when told too. 

[Francis Albert]

24 minutes ago, Costanza said:

For Deaths per population,  Sweden is currently 11th highest worldwide with approximately 570 per million.

Denmark, next door to Sweden is 48th with approximately 110 deaths per million.

Both economies suffered approximately the same downturn in GDP (7.7 and 7.8%).

Shouldn't we have copied Denmark?

 

 

 

We locked down in a similar way to Denmark and most of western Europe. Sweden didn't. As I have said time will tell whether Sweden the outlier got it more or less right than others. 

 

[Robbofan99]

1 hour ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Life was far from just cracking on like normal in Sweden

 

1. Cinema chains closed

2. The country's main ski operator closed all facilities

3. Their hospitality industry has seen an increase of businesses going into adminstration of 1400%

4. People were told to work from home where possible.

5. Gatherings of over 50 were banned

6. Bars and restaurants had a table-only service

7. People were told to avoid public transport where possible

8. People over 70 were told to avoid contact with others

9. People were told to avoid non-essential travel of greater than 2 hours

10. People were told to socially distance and keep away from others wherever possible

11. Shops could only let limited numbers in at any one time and were required to take steps to reduce social contact

 

 

Basically much the same as we had here in Phrase 3 until the recent tighter restrictions.

Stop slavering . Our lockdown was far more severe than Sweden’s 

[Francis Albert]

7 minutes ago, spirt of 98 said:

Folk in Sweden chose to social distance themselves. Over here we can’t even do it when told too. 

So many experts on Swedish culture and character. Folk in Sweden are not much different from folk anywhere.

[Francis Albert]

20 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

 

Keep up with what is actually being said.

 

I asked a question about what you were saying. The dog's response didn't enlighten.me much. Maybe you can do better ... 

[Ray Gin]

1 minute ago, Robbofan99 said:

Stop slavering . Our lockdown was far more severe than Sweden’s 

 

I have never claimed otherwise. I gave a list of how life in Sweden was not just cracking on like normal. No slavering involved. 

 

Can you guys actually read? 

[Dennis Reynolds]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

So many experts on Swedish culture and character. Folk in Sweden are not much different from folk anywhere.

 

Are you an expert in Swedish culture and character?

[Ray Gin]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

I asked a question about what you were saying. The dog's response didn't enlighten.me much. Maybe you can do better ... 

 

Your question has no relevance to what I was saying. 

[Francis Albert]

Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

I have never claimed otherwise. I gave a list of how life in Sweden was not just cracking on like normal. No slavering involved. 

 

Can you guys actually read? 

No-one said it was cracking on as normal. Are you really saying Sweden's approach was not much different from the rest?

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Your question has no relevance to what I was saying. 

So why was your dog responding to it?

[Dennis Reynolds]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

No-one said it was cracking on as normal. Are you really saying Sweden's approach was not much different from the rest?

 

Someone literally said exactly that.

 

2 hours ago, Adam_the_legend said:

The restrictions in Sweden were much less draconian than the UK and elsewhere so how they behaved would be relative. My understanding is Sweden just cracked on as normal with a few small adjustments to shield the vulnerable, pretty easy to follow. 

 

[Homme]

Hospital / education rumours are we are headed towards 2 week full lockdown.

 

That's a teacher and my partner (nurse) both said same thing over past two days.

 

Could be a load of shite, although the guy in education says he is "actively preparing for it"

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, LMc said:

 

Are you an expert in Swedish culture and character?

Well I have been to Sweden and met many Swedes. I never claimed to.be an expert unlike those who claim.the outcome of the Swedish approach can simply be explained by differences in Swedish culture and character.

[Ray Gin]

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

No-one said it was cracking on as normal. Are you really saying Sweden's approach was not much different from the rest?

 

1.The post I replied to literally said that. 

 

2.I've made no such claim. 

[Samuel Camazzola]

4 hours ago, Barack said:

Is JiH telling us he pisses on people or himself?

 

Projection is a strange thing.

 

🤔

JiH/Natural Odours likes to promote the water sports. All masked-up of course. 

[Costanza]

14 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

We locked down in a similar way to Denmark and most of western Europe. Sweden didn't. As I have said time will tell whether Sweden the outlier got it more or less right than others. 

 

Maybe. Although if we are similar to Denmark and had followed Sweden, would we then have had over 200k deaths i.e. 5 times what we have now?

Still not convinced you can take another countries approach and simply assume it would work here but regardless,  thus far it appears Sweden's approach is a lot worse than Denmark.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

9 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Only Swedes I've met have had a strong anti-authoritarian streak and a loveable sense of the absurd. I can't imagine they take being told what to do as well as the next man.

 

My wife's Swedish and does absolutely nothing I ask her to do so I would agree. Don't know if that's a cultural thing or a wife thing though....

 

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200328-how-to-self-isolate-what-we-can-learn-from-sweden

 

That's a decent article about how Swedish culture may have had a positive effect on the pandemic and I would tend to agree tbh.

 

Regarding lockdowns and things, I just don't think that there is a one size fits all approach and places are starting to notice this. Everywhere is different. We need a much better targeted approach. What works in Sweden/Denmark/France etc etc isn't necessarily the route we should be going down and comparing ourselves to other countries and their approaches is a bit pointless. 

[The Roller]

57 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Aye. I now see it's the same clown with a different name 

Whereas you leave no ambiguity.

[Enzo Chiefo]

2 hours ago, Robbofan99 said:

Absolutely fantasy island gibberish . The only plan the Govt has is no plan . They are like headless chickens . Stop giving them any form of respect by stating their so called “ plan “ . 

I'll continue to wear a mask when required, sanitise the hands and socially distance where possible. I won't , however, adhere to any other draconian, "science based" lockdown measures that either Johnson or Sturgeon lay down next week. 

[Costanza]

5 minutes ago, LMc said:

 

My wife's Swedish and does absolutely nothing I ask her to do so I would agree. Don't know if that's a cultural thing or a wife thing though....

 

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200328-how-to-self-isolate-what-we-can-learn-from-sweden

 

That's a decent article about how Swedish culture may have had a positive effect on the pandemic and I would tend to agree tbh.

 

Regarding lockdowns and things, I just don't think that there is a one size fits all approach and places are starting to notice this. Everywhere is different. We need a much better targeted approach. What works in Sweden/Denmark/France etc etc isn't necessarily the route we should be going down and comparing ourselves to other countries and their approaches is a bit pointless. 

Exactly. It would be like shouting New Zealand (4 deaths per million) whenever somebody mentions Sweden (570 deaths per million).

Although rarely someone ever mentions both...

 

[Francis Albert]

8 minutes ago, Costanza said:

Maybe. Although if we are similar to Denmark and had followed Sweden, would we then have had over 200k deaths i.e. 5 times what we have now?

Still not convinced you can take another countries approach and simply assume it would work here but regardless,  thus far it appears Sweden's approach is a lot worse than Denmark.

 

If only we could retrospectively choose to be like Denmark.rather than France or Italy or Spain or Belgium.

As I said Sweden may or may not prove to have done better than us. Time will tell. But the odds seem.to.be moving in Sweden's favour.

[magic roundabout]

This is fairly interesting.... I just pulled off the Covid 19 death stats from the NHS England website. Looking at the numbers just over 300 people under the age of 60 have died from Covid who didn't have any pre-existing medical conditions. In fact the total deaths without any pre-existing conditions is 1400. Given NHS England (until recently) were counting anybody who died after a positive test as a Covid death irrespective what the cause of death was the number is likely to be a lot lower. 

 

Ps I'm not saying we should ignore people with pre-existing conditions in fact the opposite they should be protected more... But it does question the need for future full scale lockdowns. 

 

. 

 

 

[Robbofan99]

32 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I'll continue to wear a mask when required, sanitise the hands and socially distance where possible. I won't , however, adhere to any other draconian, "science based" lockdown measures that either Johnson or Sturgeon lay down next week. 

Same here however they can stuff the household rules . Think most people will feel the same regarding that . Many have lost confidence and any semblance of respect for either Govt regarding Covid . People will naturally want their company and others if there is a full Ish type of lockdown , I like others adhered to the last one until we were allowed house visitors . This time they can do a bolt. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

7 minutes ago, Robbofan99 said:

Same here however they can stuff the household rules . Think most people will feel the same regarding that . Many have lost confidence and any semblance of respect for either Govt regarding Covid . People will naturally want their company and others if there is a full Ish type of lockdown , I like others adhered to the last one until we were allowed house visitors . This time they can do a bolt. 

👍

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Costanza said:

Maybe. Although if we are similar to Denmark and had followed Sweden, would we then have had over 200k deaths i.e. 5 times what we have now?

Still not convinced you can take another countries approach and simply assume it would work here but regardless,  thus far it appears Sweden's approach is a lot worse than Denmark.

 

But better so far than many including us.  But as you so rightly say before contradicting yourself ....

 

[Costanza]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

But better so far than many including us.  But as you so rightly say before contradicting yourself ....

 

Er, no. Note the use of  "I'm not convinced" and "appears".

[ri Alban]

10 hours ago, jambo89 said:

 

I thought that very thing yesterday. 

 

Probably the person living with him was tested and given the all clear. 

Do you not still have to isolate, just in case? 

 

9 hours ago, vegas-voss said:

That's exactly what happened.He tweeted it after Rayner done PMQs

 

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, Cade said:

Boris admits we're in a 2nd wave.

 

 

I just seen that. Why don't people help him and the other leaders, FFS. But no, I'm no fecking wearing a mask, I'm no washing my hands, pish and peanuts is my favourite treat standing at the bar of my local pub, with my mates I have to see because they like me, haunt hooses. 

Cheers ya Gonks! 

[Ray Gin]

No wonder it's spreading again when this is the level of idiocy we're dealing with: 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/edinburgh-college-student-went-class-after-positive-covid-test-2977006

Edinburgh College student 'went to class' after positive Covid test

[Victorian]

21 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

No wonder it's spreading again when this is the level of idiocy we're dealing with: 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/edinburgh-college-student-went-class-after-positive-covid-test-2977006

Edinburgh College student 'went to class' after positive Covid test

 

Similar to what I was about to mention.   A BBC article mentions that research suggests that only 1 in 5 people follow the self isolation rules when tested positive for CV.

 

And that,  following on from the bewilderment of some,  is how the virus transmits from young person (A) and eventually ends up in old person (B).

 

Welcome to society folks.   A place where people live and think only from day to day,  the future.. what's a future? Other people.. what's other people?  

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Lord BJ said:

So only young people don’t self isolate. 😂😂😂

 

 

 

 

 

That's not what I said.   I gave an example based on the other post about a student going to a class.

 

The general point is that,  if only 1 in 5 are following those rules whilst tested positive,  that's pretty bleak in terms of any notion of a collective effort.

[GinRummy]

2 hours ago, Brian Dundas said:

I’ve been looking for those stats and I still think that those are big numbers. Does that mean we could see 3000 deaths of under 60s with no underlying health conditions if we just let it run?

 

300 is a lot of people, especially if 90% of the population have still to catch the virus. 

The figures, as I’m reading them, are clearly wrong. Are they really saying nobody who died had an undiagnosed pre-existing condition.