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Zlatanable

The Scottish Independence Referendum in 2020.

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Space Mackerel
11 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

No, just pointing out that you start name calling and playing the man when you are having a 'mare - you are so predictable.

 

 

I'm loving it too.  No more Indy Ref 2 for five years. 👍


That’s fine with me. Indy should be up to about 65% by then.

 

Chin chin chap. 😎

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Zlatanable
2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:


That’s fine with me. Indy should be up to about 65% by then.

 

Chin chin chap. 😎

In your imaginary world, it only goes up to 65%?

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Taffin
13 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

I am struggling with your sentence that says '  I don't have a fundamental issue with there being a collection of islands being referred to as the "British isles""

 

How much of globally agreed history do you intend to usurp in order to arrive at your personally invented current reality?

 

You said:

 

42 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

As ever, how do we solve the question of the British Isles?

 

What does that mean? The British Isles are just a collection of islands within proximity of each other, why would I have an issue with that? Is the issue the name? As that doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

I don't know what current reality you think I've invented. If you could point that out I'll try to explain it.

 

The post you've quoted there is me agreeing with part of what you said, then giving you an example of a country that does well for itself despite having other countries in proximity to it which you originally asked for and then me adding in whether you felt it leaving their current union would also be too hard like you had suggest the "British isles" would be too hard to break up (despite it not even being a union in the first place)

 

 

Edit: I'm out. I posted on here a bit about my personal experience then decided to engage you in discussion when you quoted me despite not really understanding what you were talking about so apologies if something is going straight over my head but in all honesty I'm completely lost as to what point you're trying to make so I'll leave you to it. 👍

Edited by Taffin

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Pasquale for King
12 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Using David Cameron as a reference isn't doing your case any favours given his predictions on the Brexit referendum pre and post.

 

I'm not denigrating Scotland, I'm asking for the SNP to actually tell us how they will do it.  As I repeat myself, its been six years since they lost in 2014 and they can't or more likely won't tell us the bad news.

 

 

A lot of people voted the SNP in at Holyrood to run a devolved government, which is something they seem disinterested in.

They’ve run the country for over a decade, they still win every election of every kind, do you think the voters believe your sad old rhetoric?

Have you heard of the growth commission? Most Yessers don’t agree with it but it lays out what might happen. As they’ve been busy running the country for the last six years, fighting Tory austerity there’s not been much time to prepare for Indy. Yet they get told to do the day job? Which is it?

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Zlatanable
Just now, Pasquale for King said:

They’ve run the country for over a decade, they still win every election of every kind, do you think the voters believe your sad old rhetoric?

Have you heard of the growth commission? Most Yessers don’t agree with it but it lays out what might happen. As they’ve been busy running the country for the last six years, fighting Tory austerity there’s not been much time to prepare for Indy. Yet they get told to do the day job? Which is it?

The SNP do not 'win every election of every kind' . 

The SNP failed to win majority control of any council in the whole of Scotland in 2017. 

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Pasquale for King
24 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Hardly recent history, and as for less resources I don't think you are correct.

Scotland has more varied resources than Norway, Denmark or Sweden. They make more money than the uk though because they don’t give it all away to the 1%.
https://www.businessforscotland.com/5-reasons-why-an-independent-scotland-will-be-one-of-the-worlds-wealthiest-nations/

Edited by Pasquale for King

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Pasquale for King
5 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

The SNP do not 'win every election of every kind' . 

The SNP failed to win majority control of any council in the whole of Scotland in 2017. 

They are the most popular party in every election, they get the most votes. Glad to see you realised you couldn’t pick on anything else I said though. They win a majority in Angus and in Dundee. Back to school for you and your lies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Scottish_local_elections

Edited by Pasquale for King

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Space Mackerel
6 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

They’ve run the country for over a decade, they still win every election of every kind, do you think the voters believe your sad old rhetoric?

Have you heard of the growth commission? Most Yessers don’t agree with it but it lays out what might happen. As they’ve been busy running the country for the last six years, fighting Tory austerity there’s not been much time to prepare for Indy. Yet they get told to do the day job? Which is it?


Word on the street is that Scottish Government couldn’t get on with the day job as Whitehall has been so consumed by Brexit for the last 3 years.

 

Theres only so much capacity the Civil Service has. 

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Zlatanable

 

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

They are the most popular party in every election, they get the most votes. Glad to see you realised you couldn’t pick on anything else I said though.

You said 'they still win every election of every kind...'

 

Which is incorrect. 

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Pasquale for King
3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:


Word on the street is that Scottish Government couldn’t get on with the day job as Whitehall has been so consumed by Brexit for the last 3 years.

 

Theres only so much capacity the Civil Service has. 

Only have to look at the budget debacle unfolding at this very minute to see that. These pesky facts really get in the way . . . for unionists obviously.

Edited by Pasquale for King

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Zlatanable
2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:


Word on the street is that Scottish Government couldn’t get on with the day job as Whitehall has been so consumed by Brexit for the last 3 years.

 

Theres only so much capacity the Civil Service has. 

'Word on the street' 

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Zlatanable
3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Only have to look at the budget debacle unfolding at this very minute to see that. 

Barely a person in Scotland gives a single hoot about your so-called 'budget debacle'

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Pasquale for King
Just now, Zlatanable said:

Barely a person in Scotland gives a single hoot about your so-called 'budget debacle'

I’m pretty sure all the fans whole who work for the councils and who won’t get paid if the councils don’t set a budget in February might care. Not good with numbers, typical side effect of  jockholm syndrome. 

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Zlatanable
1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

I’m pretty sure all the fans whole who work for the councils and who won’t get paid if the councils don’t set a budget in February might care. Not good with numbers, typical side effect of  jockholm syndrome. 

Language like 'jockholm syndrome' is just silly. It shows you can't communicate as a grown-up, about our grown-up situation. 

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Space Mackerel
8 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Only have to look at the budget debacle unfolding at this very minute to see that. These pesky facts really get in the way . . . for unionists obviously.


Yup. Looks like the uber capitalist a pond former Deutchse Bank derivatives chief,  who cocked up in 2008 Sajid David and had to go running for state bailouts (socialism is it called?) is under a bit of pressure.

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Space Mackerel
5 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I’m pretty sure all the fans whole who work for the councils and who won’t get paid if the councils don’t set a budget in February might care. Not good with numbers, typical side effect of  jockholm syndrome. 


You can tell Mr Z hasn’t got Council Tax to pay. Maybe I’ll have none now 😁😁😁

 

I wonder what his knowledge of local tax funding is?

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Zlatanable
1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:


You can tell Mr Z hasn’t got Council Tax to pay. Maybe I’ll have none now 😁😁😁

 

I wonder what his knowledge of local tax funding is?

You @Space Mackerel continue to be one of the most unpleasant people on this website. 

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Pasquale for King
10 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Language like 'jockholm syndrome' is just silly. It shows you can't communicate as a grown-up, about our grown-up situation. 

You call the lying cheat, with 6 kids by 4 women, some he’s never met, by his first name. A moron who can barely string an intelligent sentence together and you criticise me? Your poor grasp of facts and bare face lies make you beneath contempt and barely worth conversing with. As for Frank, I’ve had him on ignore for months and I think you might be joining him. 

Edited by Pasquale for King

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Pasquale for King
3 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

You @Space Mackerel continue to be one of the most clued up people on this website. 

FTFY.

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Pasquale for King
6 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:


You can tell Mr Z hasn’t got Council Tax to pay. Maybe I’ll have none now 😁😁😁

 

I wonder what his knowledge of local tax funding is?

He has little knowledge of most things, yet keeps starting threads exposing this flaw 🤷🏾‍♂️🤔🙈🤪😜.

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Space Mackerel
14 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Barely a person in Scotland gives a single hoot about your so-called 'budget debacle'


So Chief Financial Officers of Local Authorities are sitting back and are not really bothered? 
 

When is the last time you even understood that absolute bare minimum how the country is structured and financed?

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Pasquale for King
1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:


So Chief Financial Officers of Local Authorities are sitting back and are not really bothered? 
 

When is the last time you even understood that absolute bare minimum how the country is structured and financed?

The next time will be the first.

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Space Mackerel
3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

FTFY.


Honestly pal. It’s like having a conversation with a 5 year old.

 

Who does he thinks funds the local roads, old folks care, libraries, health services, street lighting, property repairs, parks, litter, bins etc etc etc and he says no one cares.

 

This is mad. 

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Space Mackerel
4 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

The next time will be the first.


lol. 
 

There must be a YouTube video about it, PLEASE! 

 

 

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Pasquale for King
2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:


Honestly pal. It’s like having a conversation with a 5 year old.

 

Who does he thinks funds the local roads, old folks care, libraries, health services, street lighting, property repairs, parks, litter, bins etc etc etc and he says no one cares.

 

This is mad. 

I felt you needed a hand, I don’t usually converse with them because of their lack of knowledge and their stubbornness to accept facts or admit to being wrong. Keep up the good fight mate, we will get there eventually.

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Zlatanable

Hi @Space Mackerel and @Pasquale for King.

 

I disagree with your politics about Scottish Independence, in this moment.

 

I don't like the attitude you both show toward people that disagree with you, but that is your business. 

 

I respect your opinion about the future of Scotland. I just disagree.

 

 

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Space Mackerel

I’ve found Mr Z this 😁😁😁

 

Its different up here but he LOVES England. It’s amazing!  

 

 

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Pasquale for King
1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

I’ve found Mr Z this 😁😁😁

 

Its different up here but he LOVES England. It’s amazing!  

 

 

I fell asleep as soon as that guy started speaking 💤😴😂

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Space Mackerel
2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I fell asleep as soon as that guy started speaking 💤😴😂


Eh?

 

50 multiple choice questions on it the morn at 10am sharp! 😂

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Zlatanable

I bet he hasn't fallen asleep.

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Del Monty
8 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:


Honestly pal. It’s like having a conversation with a 5 year old.

 

Who does he thinks funds the local roads, old folks care, libraries, health services, street lighting, property repairs, parks, litter, bins etc etc etc and he says no one cares.

 

This is mad. 

Ironic post given the finances of an independent Scotland. But I will never get through to your brave heart mind. So I hope your pointless nagging keeps being what it is. Useless, and pathetic. 😉

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Space Mackerel
4 minutes ago, Del Monty said:

Ironic post given the finances of an independent Scotland. But I will never get through to your brave heart mind. So I hope your pointless nagging keeps being what it is. Useless, and pathetic. 😉


Thank you for you valued and important contribution to the thread Mr Naw. 

 

A Purlitzer Prize awaits. 💪

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Zlatanable
1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:


Thank you for you valued and important contribution to the thread Mr Naw. 

 

A Purlitzer Prize awaits. 💪

Almost like Nicola Sturgeon is on this website. 

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ri Alban
8 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

They are trying group together unrelated people who support multiple parties into one enemy to attack - its a form of paranoia. The GE showed that despite the SNP getting less than half of the vote share they won the majority of the seats in Scotland.

The Tories did the same. And they is just further proof of your YES credentials. :Aye:

 

 

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ri Alban
8 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

It would be fair to say that, although the SNP had a great result last month, the assumption that this means a majority of people living in Scotland want independence, now, is not proven. Even Sturgeon admits that.

Would the SNP case not be strengthened by running the country from Holyrood, with more purpose than is happening now, instead of focusing almost entirely on a new independence vote. Show us what they can do and highlight how much an even better a job they could do without the funding from Westminster, if indeed they can. Have a credible plan that they can convince people of, by previous successful policies of running Scotland. 
In my opinion, many are happy to vote for them as an alternative to Labour, in particular, due to Labour’s previous arrogance of power in Scotland, but not convinced, by a long way, by their argument for independence.

Again, it's an Independence referendum not a vote for the SNP. Who gives a feck what they can do with no powers and pocket money at the admin centre.

Edited by ri Alban

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ri Alban
5 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

Almost like Nicola Sturgeon is on this website. 

You have no self awareness, at all, do you. You slag people all over this site and protest about other people's manners.

 

 

 

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SectionDJambo
38 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Again, it's an Independence referendum not a vote for the SNP. Who gives a feck what they can do with no powers and pocket money at the admin centre.

Yes.

But the SNP case for another referendum is based on a General Election result. The assumption being that people who voted SNP wanted their whole package, including another referendum.

The main case for another independence referendum, in my opinion, is that we were told by the politicians, supporting remain in the UK, that if we wanted to retain our EU membership, we should vote against independence. The opposite has happened. 
We are now being told that because we are part of the UK, we have to respect what the UK voted for at the EU referendum and that it is irrelevant what Scottish voters desired.

A twisted view by twisted politicians. Sadly, all of the political parties, including the SNP, have a fair number of twisted politicians, which is why we find ourselves in never ending arguments about the same old subjects.

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jambogaza

Douglas Ross of the Conservatives torn apart on BBC Radio Scotland. No way they are sustaining this. 

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frankblack
57 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

The Tories did the same. And they is just further proof of your YES credentials. :Aye:

 

 

 

You missed my point.  People who don't agree with the SNP and independence have different political allegiances and grouping them as unionists is not correct.  A lot of people are proud Scots who don't trust the SNP and it's that simple.

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frankblack
1 minute ago, jambogaza said:

Douglas Ross of the Conservatives torn apart on BBC Radio Scotland. No way they are sustaining this. 

 

Sustaining what.  The battle has been won unless the SNP want to try their luck in the courts when legal experts reckon it would be a long and costly case with the odds stacked against them.

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Justin Z
8 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Anyone with savings and pensions would get their money in a stable currency and sell their assets in advance before the ship sinks.

 

Your absolute certainty in how the mutually exclusive votes you made will work out--that they will work out exactly in line with the way you voted, or in other words, that you are right and anyone who doesn't think like you is wrong--is your problem, not mine. That is why your previous reply to me just confused me and I left well enough alone--until I saw this statement and it clicked.

 

Seriously. To confidently "know" the massive economic loss that has already demonstrably hit as a result of one of your votes is the fault of "the others", whilst simultaneously holding that a ship will "sink" with zero available evidence yet--and it will impliedly be all the fault of the fools who didn't vote the same way as you--it's the height of delusional arrogance.

 

As a person who assumes you are interested in finding out the truth about things, rather than dogmatic tribalism, I'm pointing this out so maybe you take a step back and think about why and how you can be so sure about the things you think you know.

 

Edited by Justin Z

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jambogaza
2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Sustaining what.  The battle has been won unless the SNP want to try their luck in the courts when legal experts reckon it would be a long and costly case with the odds stacked against them.

 

The battle has been won? Think that is slightly premature. Thr SNP will win 2021. The tories can't run away from this forever. 

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Justin Z

If you still find yourself needing evidence that this union and political system are not fit for purpose, Johnson's letter yesterday refusing to grant permission for a referendum, is facially extralegal for two reasons.

 

One is the Smith commission's recommendations, codified in the most recent amendments to the Scotland Act, which states the following:

 

2 The Sewel convention

In section 28 of the Scotland Act 1998 (Acts of the Scottish Parliament) at the end add—

“(8)But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.”

 

Johnson has doubled down on Westminster's refusal to abide by the Sewel convention and defer to matters for which the Scottish Parliament has competence within the EU withdrawal, in contravention of statute. He does this while taking a remark about generations made by leaders, out of context, and with no legal force, because that is how he and his ilk operate. As pointed out earlier, this sort of politicking and lawmaking is fraught with danger, and if taken to its absurd conclusions, would mean he should be dead in a ditch.

 

The second reason is something which has been repeated throughout history but apparently was a lie: that Scotland remains sovereign and the people of Scotland retain the right to determine how they wish that sovereignty to be exercised; that the union is voluntary. Whether The Claim of Right from 1989 or 1689, or dozens of legal analyses, statutes and court rulings in-between, this has been a consistent constitutional theme, and one which is supposed to underpin the Union.

 

It is now being ignored by the Tory government because it is expedient to do so.

 

There have been accusations in this thread, and others, of "SNP cultists" refusing to ever acknowledge that party's faults, of blind cheerleading. The voices shouting the loudest seem themselves entranced in such irrational hatred, that they cheer on the deepest, most fundamental wrongs being committed against the Union itself because it "gets it up" the SNP. The Donald Trump, "own the libs" form of politicking, of burning every institutional ideal and foundation of government down because it represents the lording of your power over those you despise, is reprehensible.

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frankblack
50 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Your absolute certainty in how the mutually exclusive votes you made will work out--that they will work out exactly in line with the way you voted, or in other words, that you are right and anyone who doesn't think like you is wrong--is your problem, not mine. That is why your previous reply to me just confused me and I left well enough alone--until I saw this statement and it clicked.

 

It's my opinion and the fact you don't accept it is of little concern to me.

 

50 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

Seriously. To confidently "know" the massive economic loss that has already demonstrably hit as a result of one of your votes is the fault of "the others", whilst simultaneously holding that a ship will "sink" with zero available evidence yet--and it will impliedly be all the fault of the fools who didn't vote the same way as you--it's the height of delusional arrogance.

 

I said that others intentionally set out to stall and wreck the Brexit process, and succeeded until the GE, which had a cost.

 

Until the SNP prove they have an economic case for Independence following 2014 and the oil crash following it dismantaling their white paper then they lack credibility and trust.

 

50 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

As a person who assumes you are interested in finding out the truth about things, rather than dogmatic tribalism, I'm pointing this out so maybe you take a step back and think about why and how you can be so sure about the things you think you know.

 

 

Some people on here want to debate, which I will do as time permits while others want to be tribal and abusive.

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manaliveits105

Anyways it’s NAW gonna happen in this generation

We can get on with our lives 

 

mon the 55 

 

 

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Justin Z
10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

I said that others intentionally set out to stall and wreck the Brexit process, and succeeded until the GE, which had a cost.

 

After a government sat around for multiple years with contradictory red lines doing absolutely nothing to secure a sensible withdrawal arrangement, you ascribed the entire £120 billion cost to the others. Which even you realise, difference of opinion or no, whether you'll bring yourself to admit it or no, is an utter nonsense.

 

Tribalism indeed.

 

Edited by Justin Z

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Francis Albert
9 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

The evidence that people start off as lefties then turn into righties when they hit pensionable age?

 

And vote for the Union.

I am pushing 70 and can confidently assert that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, just from observation.

I don't need data and links to know that political (and other) views  change with age, having  observed that phenomenon for decades. 

I find debate by trading selective links and data which happen to favour your view tedious - the world is more complicated. (even the question you ask is ridiculously simplistic).

But for what it is worth I googled ""voting patterns and age" and the first two things listed were two Guardian articles which start (with confirming data) with the fact that the older people vote more conservative/right than younger people, and go on to discuss reasons and possible political responses.

Even the SNP with its reduction of voting age in an attempt to scrape past 50%,  don't seem entirely confident that the tide of history will soon sweep us to independence as young voters replace old.

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Boab
Just now, Francis Albert said:

I am pushing 70 and can confidently assert that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, just from observation.

I don't need data and links to know that political (and other) views  change with age, having  observed that phenomenon for decades. 

I find debate by trading selective links and data which happen to favour your view tedious - the world is more complicated. (even the question you ask is ridiculously simplistic).

But for what it is worth I googled ""voting patterns and age" and the first two things listed were two Guardian articles which start (with confirming data) with the fact that the older people vote more conservative/right than younger people, and go on to discuss reasons and possible political responses.

Even the SNP with its reduction of voting age in an attempt to scrape past 50%,  don't seem entirely confident that the tide of history will soon sweep us to independence as young voters replace old.


Your last two paragraphs confirm to me that it is only a matter of time.

I understand, but disagree with the Nats’ timing of going ahead with the request for a ref in 2020. 
I said in the Election thread they should bide their time and go again after our Elections in 2021. By then, it will be more popular, I’m convinced of that. 
BJ is a prize arsehole, and a racist to boot !

The people will want out of it, especially as the Brexit process will still be rumbling on.

The 31st of Jan means, basically, hee haw, as, sadly, we are about to find out !

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Francis Albert
25 minutes ago, Boab said:


Your last two paragraphs confirm to me that it is only a matter of time.

I understand, but disagree with the Nats’ timing of going ahead with the request for a ref in 2020. 
I said in the Election thread they should bide their time and go again after our Elections in 2021. By then, it will be more popular, I’m convinced of that. 
BJ is a prize arsehole, and a racist to boot !

The people will want out of it, especially as the Brexit process will still be rumbling on.

The 31st of Jan means, basically, hee haw, as, sadly, we are about to find out !

Not sure how my last two paragraphs confirm that it is only a matter of time. 

Young people grow old and data shows the rule that old people vote right/conservative has held true for many decades. Which can only be because young change as they get old.

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Boab
Just now, Francis Albert said:

Not sure how my last two paragraphs confirm that it is only a matter of time. 

Young people grow old and data shows the rule that old people vote right/conservative has held true for many decades. Which can only be because young change as they get old.


A whole new batch of voters in 2021. That’s the point I’m making. I’m hopeful most of them won’t vote to remain in a UK that is pressing the self-destruct button.

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