The Labour party

[jumpship]

Despite all polls pointing to the fact they were humiliated in the general election because of their leadership,  Jeremy Corbyn won't take the blame or apologise. Yet he is being allowed to continue as leader, no doubt trying to convince thoughs around him to choose another leader like him.

 

It's been said in Scotland for a few years now, Labour are finished... seems to be catching on in England as well.  

 

I thought when Brexit hits and is shown to be a disaster, labour would pick up again... now I'm not to sure. 

 

 

[Sarah O]

Labour are finished, certainly in Scotland.

 

The election result proves that with only Ian Murray winning a seat for them. Presumably helped by lots of idealistic English students who live in his constituency in Edinburgh.

 

I personally believe they need to gain independence from their London HQ and focus on being Scottish Labour should they wish to win back voters here. It would probably be a shrewd move to support a 2nd indie ref or even Scottish indie while they are at it. 

 

Their resistance to progress is costing them dear. Their traditional working class voters have evolved. They no longer work in the mines or on assembly lines. 

 

Let this sink in: they won fewer seats than the Lib Dems here.  

Edited December 21, 2019 by Sarah O

[EH11_2NL]

As I knew and supported it, died when John Smith died. And unless what's left of them up here get on the Indy bandwagon they will never recover. An independent Scotland would force people to have a long hard look at themselves and would produce a Labour party for Scotland and not the annexe that we have now. Just now SNP having total control is just as bad as back when Labour pulled all the strings. Look at the abortion that was Lanarkshire and GCC under their control. Rampant corruption, nepotism and sectarianism. One party having all the power is never a good thing. You will always need a strong opposition. Or maybe it is time for people to get a grip and work together to sort out our problems.

[Mikey1874]

Its could be seen as a success of politics in UK that we have a middle of the road consensus developed in last 30 years. Nothing too challenging to the public.

 

A middle of the road cautious SNP government. We await the Conservatives but despite people saying it will be right wing it was certainly a very cautious middle of the road election campaign and Boris already promises 'to bring people together'. 

 

Just keeps privilege and advantage in place with just enough for everyone else. 

[Cruyff]

It’s up to the party members and the unions to choose a new leader.

 

He needs forced out. Keir Stammer or Hilary Benn should be leader. 

 

Scottish Labour needs to change their leader as well and their entire policy towards Scottish Independence or both the Labour Party and it’s Branch office in Scotland will continue to be unelectable. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

It’s up to the party members and the unions to choose a new leader.

 

He needs forced out. Keir Stammer or Hilary Benn should be leader. 

 

Scottish Labour needs to change their leader as well and their entire policy towards Scottish Independence or both the Labour Party and it’s Branch office in Scotland will continue to be unelectable. 

 

Was it not them that choose Corbyn and unless that momentum lot are forced out, then it's very possible that a Corbyn lite will be put in his place, that's the way it's looking.

 

If that were to happen then Labour truely are finished.

 

[frankblack]

4 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Was it not them that choose Corbyn and unless that momentum lot are forced out, then it's very possible that a Corbyn lite will be put in his place, that's the way it's looking.

 

If that were to happen then Labour truely are finished.

 

 

Thats what is likely to happen, which will mean a Tory government for the next 10-15+ years who will stand up to the SNP.

[Cruyff]

3 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Was it not them that choose Corbyn and unless that momentum lot are forced out, then it's very possible that a Corbyn lite will be put in his place, that's the way it's looking.

 

If that were to happen then Labour truely are finished.

 

Yes they did. I don’t know why the membership and the Unions went hard left, perhaps it was a reaction to Tory policies and they wanted to distance themselves from Blair/Milliband New Labour. 

 

[Costanza]

If Labour want to recover in Scotland then they need to position themselves as a Social Democratic party (not as left as Corbyn but more radical than Blair) who will devolve more powers to Scotland. 

They also need to change leader as Leonard is woeful.

[jumpship]

 

29 minutes ago, Costanza said:

If Labour want to recover in Scotland then they need to position themselves as a Social Democratic party (not as left as Corbyn but more radical than Blair) who will devolve more powers to Scotland. 

They also need to change leader as Leonard is woeful.

 

A lot of the Labour core support, councillors, community labour folk are hard-core britnats. These folk will never let Labour support Scottish independence. Good thing is these folk are not getting any younger. 

 

[frankblack]

5 hours ago, jumpship said:

 

 

A lot of the Labour core support, councillors, community labour folk are hard-core britnats. These folk will never let Labour support Scottish independence. Good thing is these folk are not getting any younger. 

 

 

That argument is flawed.  If the nationalists are told for long enough that a second referendum ain't happening then the Scottish vote may break up into voting for parties with policies.

[milky_26]

the biggest mistake labour made (well the unions) was to elect Ed Miliband instead of his brother David as leader

[frankblack]

10 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

the biggest mistake labour made (well the unions) was to elect Ed Miliband instead of his brother David as leader

 

Correct.  That was utterly baffling - I don't think the Tories could believe their luck with that one as David had a fighting chance of winning a GE.

[milky_26]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Correct.  That was utterly baffling - I don't think the Tories could believe their luck with that one as David had a fighting chance of winning a GE.

i think he had a better than fighting chance. he would have won a majority in a GE

[Jambo-Jimbo]

5 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

i think he had a better than fighting chance. he would have won a majority in a GE

 

And 9 years of austerity, brexit and Boris Johnson would never have happened.

[Roxy Hearts]

4 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Correct.  That was utterly baffling - I don't think the Tories could believe their luck with that one as David had a fighting chance of winning a GE.

I thought it was policies people voted for? 

[jumpship]

Ex-Labour (and another failed) leader Ed Miliband will sit on a panel of party figures to review its general election failure.

Labour Together, which describes itself as a network of activists from all traditions, is setting up a commission to "map out a route back to power".

It says the panel will view attempts to pin the blame on a single cause, such as Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, as simplistic and wrong.

Members, focus groups in heartlands, and defeated candidates will get a say.

 

I really don't think they will like their findings.. probably sweep it under the carpet and forget about it...

[Mikey1874]

On 21/12/2019 at 21:02, milky_26 said:

the biggest mistake labour made (well the unions) was to elect Ed Miliband instead of his brother David as leader

 

On 21/12/2019 at 21:13, frankblack said:

 

Correct.  That was utterly baffling - I don't think the Tories could believe their luck with that one as David had a fighting chance of winning a GE.

 

On the one hand a valid argument.

 

But misses the other view that the Blairite policy framework David Milliband represents has also been rejected. And that while Corbyn was an unpopular leader, their problems started with New Labour centralising control and losing touch with ordinary people. 

[Mikey1874]

[Mikey1874]

On 22/12/2019 at 01:50, Roxy Hearts said:

I thought it was policies people voted for? 

 

I for example had no time for Corbyn and argued against him.

 

Until the 2017 Labour manifesto. 

 

Toss up between a Boris Johnson and say a David Milliband Government. No obvious difference. Boris Johnson might do more for ordinary people. 

[frankblack]

33 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

On the one hand a valid argument.

 

But misses the other view that the Blairite policy framework David Milliband represents has also been rejected. And that while Corbyn was an unpopular leader, their problems started with New Labour centralising control and losing touch with ordinary people. 

 

The image and personality of the leader is also crucial.  It destroyed both Ed Milliband and badly crippled Theresa May who wasn't willing to go on TV debates nor was a strong public speaker.

 

This wasn't Corbyn's downfall, however.  The indecisive nature of his leadership since 2017 and issues like Brexit definitely hammered him the other week.

[AlimOzturk]

If they had gone for the other Miliband brother they would have absolutely cruised to victory 10 years ago. 

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

On the one hand a valid argument.

 

But misses the other view that the Blairite policy framework David Milliband represents has also been rejected. And that while Corbyn was an unpopular leader, their problems started with New Labour centralising control and losing touch with ordinary people. 

I disagree. The global crash and anti Scottish Xenophobia, cost Gordon Brown and The Labour Party. Oh and not the small matter of Clegg, Swinson and the Libdems. 

Edited December 24, 2019 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

If they had gone for the other Miliband brother they would have absolutely cruised to victory 10 years ago. 

5 years ago, next May. 

Edited December 24, 2019 by ri Alban

[jumpship]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/27/tom-watson-i-quit-because-of-labour-brutality

 

Tom Watson talking about how toxic labour are behind the scenes. IMO showing himself up to be one of the causes and also how weak he is. Lost control, didnt like being challanged by his own labour and union folk so walked away to do something else. Stood beside Corbyn but was stadding him in the back by voting against him. 

[A Boy Named Crow]

On 24/12/2019 at 09:25, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

On the one hand a valid argument.

 

But misses the other view that the Blairite policy framework David Milliband represents has also been rejected. And that while Corbyn was an unpopular leader, their problems started with New Labour centralising control and losing touch with ordinary people. 

Is that really true though? I think you need to separate the Blairite policy framework from other things, like the war in Iraq then the effects of the GFC. I’d say, certainly  anecdotally, the war in Iraq was a major problem for many, but I’m not sure that people actually rejected the Blairite “third way” notion of a government that sat somewhere in between the traditional left and right.

 

we’ll never know though, Labour chose Wrong Brother after Brown had his day in the sun and helped set us on a course to the absolute car crash we see today.

 

If I hadn’t already left the country...I’d leave the country!

 

[maroonlegions]

This reeks of smug Tories .

 

Policies did not win the GE for the Selfservatives it was the right wing media and the BBCs crucifixion of Corbyn that won it.

 

One fact is that a very large part of  Scotland does not want Tory Boris, that is clear, they voted SNP to send a clear message to Westminster , it could have been Labour in days gone by but Labour in England have failed to get rid of the Tories, the SNP won the protest votes. 

[John Findlay]

11 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

This reeks of smug Tories .

 

Policies did not win the GE for the Selfservatives it was the right wing media and the BBCs crucifixion of Corbyn that won it.

 

One fact is that a very large part of  Scotland does not want Tory Boris, that is clear, they voted SNP to send a clear message to Westminster , it could have been Labour in days gone by but Labour in England have failed to get rid of the Tories, the SNP won the protest votes. 

Never Labour's fault is it. 

[Gorgiewave]

The SNP are an illusion, a con trick, professional liars and hangers-on. One day people will realise that their claimed interest in "social justice" is bullshit. They will be hated. This happened to Labour in Scotland in 2015, because they'd taken people for granted for decades. Now it's happened in the North East and other places.

 

If Labour can become a sincere left-of-centre party, they just need to wait for the SNP drug to wear off. But a lot of people - a lot of members of this board - are as blind as those in love, and they'll take years, and even decades, to come out of their dwam.

 

When they do, Labour will recover.

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

The SNP are an illusion, a con trick, professional liars and hangers-on. One day people will realise that their claimed interest in "social justice" is bullshit. They will be hated. This happened to Labour in Scotland in 2015, because they'd taken people for granted for decades. Now it's happened in the North East and other places.

 

If Labour can become a sincere left-of-centre party, they just need to wait for the SNP drug to wear off. But a lot of people - a lot of members of this board - are as blind as those in love, and they'll take years, and even decades, to come out of their dwam.

 

When they do, Labour will recover.

 

Boris will give them those years to recover - 5 to start with this parliament, plus another 5 after that if re-elected.

 

I think it will be interesting to see if SNP support holds up if a referendum is clearly not going to be allowed this parliament or the one after.

[XB52]

2 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

The SNP are an illusion, a con trick, professional liars and hangers-on. One day people will realise that their claimed interest in "social justice" is bullshit. They will be hated. This happened to Labour in Scotland in 2015, because they'd taken people for granted for decades. Now it's happened in the North East and other places.

 

If Labour can become a sincere left-of-centre party, they just need to wait for the SNP drug to wear off. But a lot of people - a lot of members of this board - are as blind as those in love, and they'll take years, and even decades, to come out of their dwam.

 

When they do, Labour will recover.

Please tell me you don't actually believe half the rubbish you post?? You and the rest of your dwindling band of British nationalists are getting more and more extreme in your desperation, quite funny really. So much hatred for the only party that cares about our country

[frankblack]

4 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Please tell me you don't actually believe half the rubbish you post?? You and the rest of your dwindling band of British nationalists are getting more and more extreme in your desperation, quite funny really. So much hatred for the only party that cares about our country

 

You are the one sounding desperate as you have no hope of getting a referendum in the forseeable future, and there are absolutely no options open to the SNP to do anything about it this parliament.

Edited December 28, 2019 by frankblack

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, XB52 said:

Please tell me you don't actually believe half the rubbish you post?? You and the rest of your dwindling band of British nationalists are getting more and more extreme in your desperation, quite funny really. So much hatred for the only party that cares about our country

 

The SNP don't give a toss about Scotland; they don't even know anything about it.

 

How often does Nicola Sturgeon come out and deplore this or that that the British government has done (not her remit) or demand indyref2 (not her remit)? How often does she declare the Union over (not her remit) or selectively compare Scotland to England (not her remit)?

How often does she come out and summarise what she's done that day, that week or that month to improve Scottish education (her remit)? When will she be sacking the calamitous cabinet secretary for health (her remit)? When will trains run on time in Scotland (her remit)?

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You are the one sounding desperate as you have no hope of getting a referendum in the forseeable future, and there are absolutely no options open to the SNP to do anything about it this parliament.

 

Yes, people might look elsewhere if they think they're wasting their time.

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Yes, people might look elsewhere if they think they're wasting their time.

 

If the other parties change the political focus to issues about implementing details of Brexit, Health, Education, etc and the economy is stable post-Brexit then the constant negative drone from the nationalists will start to be ignored.

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

If the other parties change the political focus to issues about implementing details of Brexit, Health, Education, etc and the economy is stable post-Brexit then the constant negative drone from the nationalists will start to be ignored.

We have to hope so.

 

I like the idea Boris has of proposing sitting down with Nicola Sturgeon to deal with serious matters in Scotland, such as the epidemic of drug deaths. If he offers a meeting, whatever expertise Whitehall can offer on the subject and whatever resources are needed, Sturgeon will look silly and dishonest if she then says "We need indyref2, it's our right", rather than "Let's get to work". He can call her bluff (and tackle a major problem) by doing that.

[Justin Z]

The increasing desperation in the rhetoric here is quite tasty indeed. Your fear and ignorance are palpable.

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Justin Z

[The Brow]

54 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

We have to hope so.

 

I like the idea Boris has of proposing sitting down with Nicola Sturgeon to deal with serious matters in Scotland, such as the epidemic of drug deaths. If he offers a meeting, whatever expertise Whitehall can offer on the subject and whatever resources are needed, Sturgeon will look silly and dishonest if she then says "We need indyref2, it's our right", rather than "Let's get to work". He can call her bluff (and tackle a major problem) by doing that.

 

England has just had the steepest increase in drug deaths in one year since records began. Until we stop criminalising users and actually try to help them, the 'war on drugs' will continue to be an absolute joke. The amount of cocaine use you see in pubs and clubs is actually mental, which has led to problems all over with crime. If I were Sturgeon I'd actually speak to experts rather than someone presiding over the sliding of England into an absolute grotty shit tip.  

[Gorgiewave]

26 minutes ago, The Brow said:

 

England has just had the steepest increase in drug deaths in one year since records began. Until we stop criminalising users and actually try to help them, the 'war on drugs' will continue to be an absolute joke. The amount of cocaine use you see in pubs and clubs is actually mental, which has led to problems all over with crime. If I were Sturgeon I'd actually speak to experts rather than someone presiding over the sliding of England into an absolute grotty shit tip.  

 

But she won't, will she? She'll demand indyref2 and, if Scotland has better statistics than England in some regard, she'll brag about it and look angry.

 

But doing something - actually tackling it - no. She doesn't care and doesn't want to know.

[The Brow]

55 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

But she won't, will she? She'll demand indyref2 and, if Scotland has better statistics than England in some regard, she'll brag about it and look angry.

 

But doing something - actually tackling it - no. She doesn't care and doesn't want to know.

 

No - nobody ever does anything. Each political party is a mess and filled with self serving arseholes. Its an outdated pile of absolute shite that doesnt work.  

[ri Alban]

Any news about Labour?

 

GW and FB really are broken. Their tears and snotters are 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by ri Alban

[frankblack]

5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Any news about Labour?

 

GW and FB really are broken. Their tears and snotters are 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The denial is strong with you.

 

When's your Indy Ref 2 happening?  Jimmy promised one for 2020 but big bad Boris said no.

Edited December 29, 2019 by frankblack

[Diadora Van Basten]

I find the situation facing the Labour Party fascinating.

 

In the last two leadership elections they retreated to their comfort zone and paid the price in the elections partially hidden by how bad May was.

 

In my opinion they need to look to the Scandinavian countries to see how left wing policies and financial discipline can make a more fair and equal society. 

[ri Alban]

If the Labour Party ever want to govern Scotland again, they better shift to Pro Independence and quick!

[The Mighty Thor]

People talking about the Labour party in Scotland as though it has any relevance. 😂

 

It's a busted flush in Scotland. It hasn't resonated with Scots for years, probably due  to a series of inept and under skilled branch office leaders. Dugdale, Leonard etc have taken them backwards.  

 

Nationally Labour is done for too. If there was a viable alternative party that wasn't the Tory-lite Lib Dems, then Labour would be on its knees down south too as the third or fourth party. 

 

It can move left, it can pretend to be centrist but it won't see government for a very long time to come. 

 

It can probably save itself by cleaving in two and leaving the wide eyed lefty loons and union barons to become a socialist workers party whilst the few moderate/sensible members form a party that's relevant to the current era and political landscape. Otherwise they'd be as well shutting up shop. 

[frankblack]

16 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

I find the situation facing the Labour Party fascinating.

 

In the last two leadership elections they retreated to their comfort zone and paid the price in the elections partially hidden by how bad May was.

 

In my opinion they need to look to the Scandinavian countries to see how left wing policies and financial discipline can make a more fair and equal society. 

 

Fair comment - if they let the Momentum wing appoint another hard left leader they are in big trouble and will be out of power for another 10 years minimum.

 

My thoughts are they desperately need a David Milliband type to lead them, but a lot of their candidates are damaged goods following their stance on Brexit.

[manaliveits105]

As irrelevant as the snp in British politics - what they both want doesn’t matter anymore thankfully

[The Real Maroonblood]

12 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

As irrelevant as the snp in British politics - what they both want doesn’t matter anymore thankfully

[AlimOzturk]

4 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

As irrelevant as the snp in British politics - what they both want doesn’t matter anymore thankfully

 

How can you possibly say that the third largest party in the UK is irrelevant? Even the most die hard remainers would call your statement stupid. 

[frankblack]

4 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

How can you possibly say that the third largest party in the UK is irrelevant? Even the most die hard remainers would call your statement stupid. 

 

The SNP will vote against anything the government proposes at Westminster to make themselves feel important but that will not make a difference to the result.  Therefore they are irrelevant because they have backed themselves into a corner where they potentially could have negotiated something for Scotland but won't due to their unapproachable attitude.