Nicola Sturgeon

[Harry Potter]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

There is a general election every five years--or less. How is that not democracy?

 

The problem is systems where constitutional change can be enacted with a simple majority. That goes for Brexit and Scottish Independence. But it's the system in the UK. It's not the SNP or Indy supporters' ****ing fault it is that way, is it?

You make a valid point.

[Justin Z]

Just now, Harry Potter said:

You make a valid point.

 

Cheers. I edited my post as well after you quoted it, for what it's worth.

[Harry Potter]

Just now, Justin Z said:

 

Cheers. I edited my post as well after you quoted it, for what it's worth.

👍, im always up for a sensible debate.

[Justin Z]

14 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

👍, im always up for a sensible debate.

Same, ya auld goat

[Harry Potter]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

Same, ya auld goat

Ha Ha, very good, .

Was a shop steward for years bud, would rather talk the management round rather than taking industrial

action, thats a no winner .

[NANOJAMBO]

1 hour ago, Ron Burgundy said:

If you can't see that that is happening on both sides then you're very blinkered.

Im not blinkered.  I'm commenting on the obvoius trolling accompanied by deliberately insulting language of one newbie. But thanks for your pomposity. 

[Justin Z]

4 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Ha Ha, very good, .

Was a shop steward for years bud, would rather talk the management round rather than taking industrial

action, thats a no winner .

 

Well, I think that's a great example. Industrial action ought to be pretty close to a last resort, the final card you can play when the management ignore your entirely reasonable request to be treated as an equal partner in accordance with the company charter, your desire in accord with that to have some power to determine your own future and working conditions; or to agree for example that it should've taken a majority vote by all departments, independently, to exit from the factorean union.

 

Stuff like that. Failing that, industrial action--or starting your own factory, I guess--is pretty much all that's left.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Justin Z

[Governor Tarkin]

26 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

👍, im always up for a sensible debate.

 

 Oh ma sides...

[Ron Burgundy]

7 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Im not blinkered.  I'm commenting on the obvoius trolling accompanied by deliberately insulting language of one newbie. But thanks for your pomposity. 

I must have missed the obvious trolling of a newbie in amongst the masses of other posts by established members doing the exact same.

 

Wasn't intended as pompous but there you go.

[NANOJAMBO]

Just now, Ron Burgundy said:

I must have missed the obvious trolling of a newbie in amongst the masses of other posts by established members doing the exact same.

 

Wasn't intended as pompous but there you go.

Fair enough. 👍

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I must have missed the obvious trolling of a newbie in amongst the masses of other posts by established members doing the exact same.

 

Wasn't intended as pompous but there you go.

 

To be fair it's easy to miss the plainest things when your head is in fantastic clouds of your own creation.

 

Or as the Facebook tag group is so aptly named, "Conservatives getting angry over things they made up themselves".

[coconut doug]

53 minutes ago, Dunks said:

Just on the 'support' for independence, there have been many swings over the years as circumstances and opinion change. 

 

Historical Polling for Independence

1998    52%

2000    47%

2007    40%

2013    29%

2014    49%

2016    45%

2018    43%

2019    46%

 

I've taken a very rough polling result from the very many polls held throughout the year. Of note is that you need to go back to the last century to see consistent polling in favour of independence. In terms of the impact of a campaign on polls, we seen a dramatic rise from pre-2014 up to the actual vote, albeit the starting point appears low in comparative terms. Whether a new campaign combined with anti-tory feeling pushes opinion beyond 50% for a new vote, who knows.

 

My personal view is that a new vote now would see the same outcome as 2014. The Yes movement would require a strong campaign to turn it round and would need to go some way to separating the constitutional question from the political one. They failed to do that in 2014. Conversely, the No movement really needs to come up with a compelling argument as to why we should remain under Westminster control. Something better than 'because'. And we shouldn't discount the chance of further devolution being offered as a sweetener. This happened late in the 2014 campaign.

 

Interesting times ahead 

 

 

 

This is not how i recall the change in support for Indy. This is much more how i remember things especially the social attitudes survey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence   

[Ron Burgundy]

9 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

To be fair it's easy to miss the plainest things when your head is in fantastic clouds of your own creation.

 

Or as the Facebook tag group is so aptly named, "Conservatives getting angry over things they made up themselves".

I don't get the anger at all. It's a democracy and sometimes you get what you vote for and sometimes you don't.

I wonder how many are actual party members and contribute anything away from the internet.

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I don't get the anger at all. It's a democracy and sometimes you get what you vote for and sometimes you don't.

I wonder how many are actual party members and contribute anything away from the internet.

Morning Ron!

 

 

[Old Hearts]

2 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I think the Unionists are sitting rather smugly today 

Very much this 😎😎😎

[Justin Z]

7 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I don't get the anger at all. It's a democracy and sometimes you get what you vote for and sometimes you don't.

I wonder how many are actual party members and contribute anything away from the internet.

 

I mean, there are certainly plenty of things to be angry about. I highlighted one in the Election thread, Katie Hopkins telling a Muslim woman of colour to **** off and that white working class Britain was now in charge. Pretty disgusting and the sort of attitude the Tories have courted since absorbing the UKIP types into their numbers.

 

So yeah, I get the anger. What I don't get, is the anger we saw from a couple of posters as all their wildest fantasies were coming true with the exit polls last night. One Tripper in particular . . . yet you even called him a "happy chap". I really don't get that conclusion, that an individual who should have been over the moon would come on the election thread not to gloat, not to have fun, but to spew pure vitriol.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Justin Z

[Ron Burgundy]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

I mean, there are certainly plenty of things to be angry about. I highlighted one in the Election thread, Katie Hopkins telling a Muslim woman of colour to **** off and that white Britain was now in charge. Pretty disgusting and the sort of attitude the Tories have courted since absorbing the UKIP types into their numbers.

 

So yeah, I get the anger. What I don't get, is the anger we saw from a couple of posters as all their wildest fantasies were coming true with the exit polls last night. One Tripper in particular . . . yet you even called him a "happy chap". I really don't get that conclusion, that an individual who should have been over the moon would come on the election thread not to gloat, not to have fun, but to spew pure vitriol.

Some posters on here are hoping for a cold winter to kill off elderly unionists. It's all internet bravado. Not pleasant but it is words on a page. It becomes more serious if these daft words are acted on.

 

Yeah there has been plenty horrible stuff during this election, I saw a photo of a tweet posted on facebook stating any unionists left in an independent Scotland should be gassed like the jews.

the ramblings of nutters are best ignored.

 

Even Spacey and I get along in real life, he's offered me shelter in his attic when they start rounding up non cult members ( but I think that's only cos he fancies me).

 

Why o why can't we all just get along.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

13 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Morning Ron!

 

 

Morning , do I need to bring my own sleeping bag and do you have that itchy insulation stuff between the rafters? That could be a deal breaker.

[Dunks]

27 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

This is not how i recall the change in support for Indy. This is much more how i remember things especially the social attitudes survey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence   

 

Every figure in my post is in that link

[Justin Z]

Just now, Ron Burgundy said:

Even Spacey and I get along in real life, he's offered me shelter in his attic when they start rounding up non cult members ( but I think that's only cos he fancies me).

 

 

1 minute ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Why o why can't we all just get along.

 

Although I'm hardly one to talk about keeping a level head sometimes when I see people supporting parties and candidates that tear the less privileged to shreds, this has pretty much consistently been my point. If the way to win is by capturing hearts and minds, getting along with them first is the only way.

 

No one would ever doubt @ri Alban's commitment to his ideals, but he's accidentally right about as many things as Tripper is simply wrong about, which to me may even be worse. He does his cause no favours by ramping up the emotive and angry language, a point I have made to @Pans Jambo as well.

 

@Governor Tarkin is a great example of someone I doubt I would see eye-to-eye with on most political issues, but could see myself knocking back several jars with, no problemo.

 

So yeah, I follow you Ron.

 

8 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Some posters on here are hoping for a cold winter to kill off elderly unionists.

 

For what it's worth, I took this to mean that the elderly were voting for the cold winter, if that makes sense, and the posters' attitudes were basically well, let the chips fall where they may then, if they want to sign their own death warrants. Given nine years of austerity and 120,000 needlessly killed, this is a cold (no pun intended ) but not entirely unjustified position. But that brings us back to the hearts and minds question again, eh?

[Don Dan]

Sturgeon showed no class or diplomacy when she was filmed celebrating Swindon losing her seat. 
Yes Swinson was a wet blanket and a useless leader but Sturgeon should have shown a bit humility and come across in a more magnanimous way. 
I suppose that’s the nature of the woman in real life. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Dannie Boy

[Justin Z]

Just now, Dannie Boy said:

Sturgeon showed no class or diplomacy when was filmed celebrating Swindon losing her seat. 
Yes Swinson was a wet blanket and a useless leader but Sturgeon should have shown a bit humility come across in a more magnanimous way. 

 

A hotly contested seat and a huge one for the SNP to win and she'd just seen the result, unaware of the camera. A very natural and very human response. She was subsequently extremely empathetic to Swinson in her interview, stressing her jubilation was for Amy Callaghan, who she considers a "young, rising star".

 

Maybe those claiming Tynecastle is full of sit-on-your-hands sweetie rustlers were right, and you don't make a peep when we score a big goal in a tough derby or game against a Glasgow team.

[Don Dan]

7 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

A hotly contested seat and a huge one for the SNP to win and she'd just seen the result, unaware of the camera. A very natural and very human response. She was subsequently extremely empathetic to Swinson in her interview, stressing her jubilation was for Amy Callaghan, who she considers a "young, rising star".

 

Maybe those claiming Tynecastle is full of sit-on-your-hands sweetie rustlers were right, and you don't make a peep when we score a big goal in a tough derby or game against a Glasgow team.

Im sure she was well aware the camera was on her as she gave an interview on that very camera a short while later. 
All politicians need to be aware they are under constant scrutiny from all angles. 
You could be right about the direction of her jubilation but like most politicians actions it’s twisted  to suit the relevant narrative derogatory or otherwise.
 

Ive banged my napper a good few times on the rafters of Tynecastle when we score, not so much lately though as goals are few and far between at times. Looking forward to see us score for fun now Stendel has arrived 🤞🏼

Edited December 13, 2019 by Dannie Boy

[AlphonseCapone]

2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Did I miss the bit on the ballot paper which said a vote for snp was a vote for an independence referendumb 

Is she just thick 

 

[Justin Z]

Speaking of another referendum, a tenner says if a referendum is granted, Westminster will disenfranchise EU citizens from it, even though their vote last time swung it to No, because we all know what their vote this time would do.

 

Any takers?

[Jamhammer]

2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

We had the vote, was a NO, so now no matter what England and Westminster do in direct contravention of what they said they'd do in 2014, get over it and move on.

 

In a word: No.

 

This for me. I'm all for abiding by the result of a referendum and sucked it up at the time but the goalposts have moved considerably. 

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, XB52 said:

Sorry for my earlier reply to you. Just used to so many trolls on here, hard to accept genuine questions

 

[ri Alban]

30 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

 

Although I'm hardly one to talk about keeping a level head sometimes when I see people supporting parties and candidates that tear the less privileged to shreds, this has pretty much consistently been my point. If the way to win is by capturing hearts and minds, getting along with them first is the only way.

 

No one would ever doubt @ri Alban's commitment to his ideals, but he's accidentally right about as many things as Tripper is simply wrong about, which to me may even be worse. He does his cause no favours by ramping up the emotive and angry language, a point I have made to @Pans Jambo as well.

 

@Governor Tarkin is a great example of someone I doubt I would see eye-to-eye with on most political issues, but could see myself knocking back several jars with, no problemo.

 

So yeah, I follow you Ron.

 

 

For what it's worth, I took this to mean that the elderly were voting for the cold winter, if that makes sense, and the posters' attitudes were basically well, let the chips fall where they may then, if they want to sign their own death warrants. Given nine years of austerity and 120,000 needlessly killed, this is a cold (no pun intended ) but not entirely unjustified position. But that brings us back to the hearts and minds question again, eh?

Hardly accidentally, Jye zed

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Hardly accidentally, Jye zed

 

Not on everything, but way too often for your own good or the good of your cause, aussie.

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

Not on everything, but way too often for your own good or the good of your cause, aussie.

I don't have a cause. I just want Scotland to be sovereign again.

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I don't have a cause. I just want Scotland to be sovereign again.

 

Hey, so do I. But that is definitionally a cause. The cause of independence.

[John Findlay]

2 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

 

Why should the Scottish public be held to that vote forever when the Tories haven't been held to the promises they made in the campaign? (i.e. that we'd get devolution max powers and it would guarantee our place in the EU).

 

 

Now now dont be disingenuous. Leader of the No campaign was Alistair Darling former Labour chancellor of the exchequer and the vow. Printed in bold on the front page of the Labour supporting Daily Record was made by Gordon Brown, former Labour Primeminister. So Labour just as culpable if not more than the Tories.

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

Hey, so do I. But that is definitionally a cause. The cause of independence.

A dream. A cause, to me, is violent.

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

A dream. A cause, to me, is violent.

 

Mmm, I don't think that's a terribly common interpretation. The almighty Google has this to say:

 

 

Indeed, nothing implicitly or explicitly violent about advancing the cause of deaf people, or the homeless, or immigrants, or whatever.

[Ray Gin]

4 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Now now dont be disingenuous. Leader of the No campaign was Alistair Darling former Labour chancellor of the exchequer and the vow. Printed in bold on the front page of the Labour supporting Daily Record was made by Gordon Brown, former Labour Primeminister. So Labour just as culpable if not more than the Tories.

 

Agreed, Labour were just as instrumental in writing the pledge, but the Tories are the party who have been in power since it was made and are responsible for a failure to deliver on it.

[Ray Gin]

"As a nation, they have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way, however much we might regret their departure."

Margaret Thatcher on Scottish Independence, quote taken from her book, "The Downing Street Years"

 

Yet here we are with Baw Jaws trying to do exactly that and standing in our way.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Ray Gin

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Morning , do I need to bring my own sleeping bag and do you have that itchy insulation stuff between the rafters? That could be a deal breaker.

I’ll floor it for you and stick in a wee heater pal. 😊

[Harry Potter]

2 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

 Oh ma sides...

My new image, doubt it will last.

[doctor jambo]

43 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

"As a nation, they have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way, however much we might regret their departure."

Margaret Thatcher on Scottish Independence, quote taken from her book, "The Downing Street Years"

 

Yet here we are with Baw Jaws trying to do exactly that and standing in our way.

The nation needs to heal- both England, Scotland and the UK.

You don't do that by asking divisive questions and setting "man against man, until man exists no more".

If Nicola would shut her hole for a couple of years this would happen.

I suspect that BoJo actually wants to be a good PM to the whole of the UK- he sees himself as a statesman.

He has swayed the north of England.

I think he will try up here too.

[Space Mackerel]

20 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

The nation needs to heal- both England, Scotland and the UK.

You don't do that by asking divisive questions and setting "man against man, until man exists no more".

If Nicola would shut her hole for a couple of years this would happen.

I suspect that BoJo actually wants to be a good PM to the whole of the UK- he sees himself as a statesman.

He has swayed the north of England.

I think he will try up here too.

Utterly ragin’ ^^^^^ 

[kirkierobroy]

5 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

I suspect that BoJo actually wants to be a good PM to the whole of the UK- he sees himself as a statesman.

 

I suspect that Bonzo the Utter Johnson wants to be a good PM to Bonzo the Utter Johnson.

[Boab]

Just now, doctor jambo said:

The nation needs to heal- both England, Scotland and the UK.

You don't do that by asking divisive questions and setting "man against man, until man exists no more".

If Nicola would shut her hole for a couple of years this would happen.

I suspect that BoJo actually wants to be a good PM to the whole of the UK- he sees himself as a statesman.

He has swayed the north of England.

I think he will try up here too.

The racist **** can **** off.

[Justin Z]

18 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

The nation needs to heal- both England, Scotland and the UK.

You don't do that by asking divisive questions and setting "man against man, until man exists no more".

If Nicola would shut her hole for a couple of years this would happen.

I suspect that BoJo actually wants to be a good PM to the whole of the UK- he sees himself as a statesman.

He has swayed the north of England.

I think he will try up here too.

 

Nah.

 

Sorry, but you don't get to lay at the feet of the people moved to change a broken system, the faults of the broken system, and call them divisive in the face of all they have and continue to endure.

 

"If Nicola would shut her hole" = sit down and shut up Scotland, and that's bullshit.

[XB52]

4 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said:

So we keep having referendums every time Westminster does something that upsets Sturgeon?

If you don't like it, vote for another party. Unfortunately for you, the SNP are the most popular party in Scotland by a mile.

[XB52]

4 hours ago, Harry Potter said:

Very good post Dunks , still say again a 2nd vote would set a president for future voting, keep voting till its the right 

result for some, that is not democracy.

 

So in your world voting isn't democratic????

[Nucky Thompson]

4 minutes ago, XB52 said:

 Unfortunately for you, the SNP are the most popular party in Scotland by a mile.

It's not unfortunate for me as they won't have any power at Westminster to make a difference given the size of the Tory majority

Their nippy policies in Scotland like minimum pricing and a ban on multi buys gets on my tits granted, but I just buy all my booze in Berwick when I'm down at my caravan

[jack D and coke]

54 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Nah.

 

Sorry, but you don't get to lay at the feet of the people moved to change a broken system, the faults of the broken system, and call them divisive in the face of all they have and continue to endure.

 

"If Nicola would shut her hole" = sit down and shut up Scotland, and that's bullshit.

Mental isn’t it. 
Sit and watch a rampant English nationalism gathering pace and their first thought is for Scotland to STFU....

 

[Harry Potter]

42 minutes ago, XB52 said:

So in your world voting isn't democratic????

My world, ?

[manaliveits105]

By the time the Scottish Parliamentary Election comes along in 2021 the will of the Scottish people will kick indyref2 well into touch 

meanwhile Boris will tell Krankie to do one and there will be doubts that the Scottish people will want her as FM following her mentors trial 

 

Merry Borismas 

[Justin Z]