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Poseidon

FoH poll - Short term direction

Short term direction of FoH  

268 members have voted

  1. 1. What should be the short term direction of FoH when we become majority shareholders upon repayment of the loan?

    • Immediately look to call and EGM and ask for a change in CEO
    • Leave CEO in charge but ask/campaign for more FoH representation on the Hearts board
    • Leave things as they are with current processes and representation in place
    • Other (add comments below)


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Poseidon

Following some comments on another thread, I was interested to put this out there to gauge opinion

Edited by Poseidon

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Prof

Cool heads make wise decisions. 

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Baxfee

Give this one a miss 

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jambobob61

Read the structure of the governance going forwards.........the FoH has a minority on the board and no right to interfere in the running of the club, then work out what influence there might be for yourself!

 

 

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Dirty Deeds

I suspect that Budge will move on soon after the deal concludes.  She would have to be masochistic to stay.

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Dunks

The AGM is later this month - raise any questions there.

 

I seem to recall the governance arrangements were voted through overwhelmingly at the time.

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Icon of Symmetry

Hopefully she stays on until we have time to find her replacement. Not looking forward to the Gorgie Suite committee types all jostling for position at the trough. :yucky:

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Poseidon
3 minutes ago, jambobob61 said:

Read the structure of the governance going forwards.........the FoH has a minority on the board and no right to interfere in the running of the club, then work out what influence there might be for yourself!

 

 

Myself? I'm seeking no influence. 

 

Interested to see what the current thinking is. 

 

If there was a large majority of FoH members that wanted to change things for example, I would hypothesise that pressure could be put on the current FoH board to review the governance so that more influence on the Hearts board could be sought. To suggest that 75% owners of a football club have no right to 'interfere' is an interesting opinion though, thanks.

 

 

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davemclaren
7 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

Myself? I'm seeking no influence. 

 

Interested to see what the current thinking is. 

 

If there was a large majority of FoH members that wanted to change things for example, I would hypothesise that pressure could be put on the current FoH board to review the governance so that more influence on the Hearts board could be sought. To suggest that 75% owners of a football club have no right to 'interfere' is an interesting opinion though, thanks.

 

 

They have the same rugh to interfere ss any 75% owner of a limited company. It’s what choose they choose to do that is important. The current governance ‘choice’ was overwhelmingly confirmed by FoH members last December. 

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Poseidon
1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

They have the same rugh to interfere ss any 75% owner of a limited company. It’s what choose they choose to do that is important. The current governance ‘choice’ was overwhelmingly confirmed by FoH members last December. 

Agreed. Not denying any of that. There may be a shift in peoples opinions however. 

 

Out of interest, does anyone have the number of votes cast for and against the governance proposal last December?

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jambobob61
27 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

Myself? I'm seeking no influence. 

 

Interested to see what the current thinking is. 

 

If there was a large majority of FoH members that wanted to change things for example, I would hypothesise that pressure could be put on the current FoH board to review the governance so that more influence on the Hearts board could be sought. To suggest that 75% owners of a football club have no right to 'interfere' is an interesting opinion though, thanks.

 

 

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/governance/

 

Try reading it, it opened my eyes, if it ever came to it (and we obviously hope not) and Hearts are sold the FoH are due nothing from any sale. Look at Blackburn, left in trust by Jack Walker but only years later that was set aside! The future is not 'set'.

From the info available it appears the 25% minority are the only shareholders with rights?

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davemclaren
12 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

Agreed. Not denying any of that. There may be a shift in peoples opinions however. 

 

Out of interest, does anyone have the number of votes cast for and against the governance proposal last December?

I looked on the FoH website but couldn’t find anything. I think it might have been only 5% or so voted against ( of those who voted ) but @Footballfirst will know I imagine. 

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davemclaren
1 minute ago, jambobob61 said:

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/governance/

 

Try reading it, it opened my eyes, if it ever came to it (and we obviously hope not) and Hearts are sold the FoH are due nothing from any sale. Look at Blackburn, left in trust by Jack Walker but only years later that was set aside! The future is not 'set'.

From the info available it appears the 25% minority are the only shareholders with rights?

All shareholders at Hearts have the same rights legally. It’s what people choose to do with those rights that is the important bit. 

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Poseidon
12 minutes ago, jambobob61 said:

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/governance/

 

Try reading it, it opened my eyes, if it ever came to it (and we obviously hope not) and Hearts are sold the FoH are due nothing from any sale. Look at Blackburn, left in trust by Jack Walker but only years later that was set aside! The future is not 'set'.

From the info available it appears the 25% minority are the only shareholders with rights?

I know, I disagreed with large parts of the governance and still do

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Geoff Kilpatrick

FoH should be succession planning now. This managerial appointment farce is testament to that.

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jambobob61
14 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

All shareholders at Hearts have the same rights legally. It’s what people choose to do with those rights that is the important bit. 

Bar-room expertise counts for nothing, read the documents!

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davemclaren
Just now, jambobob61 said:

Bar-room expertise counts for nothing, read the documents!

I did, when I voted on them. FoH as 75% shareholder has constrained how it will influence the club via a vote of its membership. 

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Cruyff Turn

It ultimately depends on the appointment she makes. Can’t vote until we’ve seen the outcome of that. 

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jambobob61
1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

I did, when I voted on them. FoH as 75% shareholder has constrained how it will influence the club via a vote of its membership. 

Was that not my original point?

People assume the FoH can sort this mess out at will, or could have prevented it, but it cannot and did not!

The future direction is not within the remit or control of FoH, who is in control is for me the actual question????

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i8hibsh

FoH are fantastic but I feel they are too far up Budge's backside. There, I said it.

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davemclaren
9 minutes ago, jambobob61 said:

Was that not my original point?

People assume the FoH can sort this mess out at will, or could have prevented it, but it cannot and did not!

The future direction is not within the remit or control of FoH, who is in control is for me the actual question????

I thought that your original point was that FoH had no right to interfere in the running of Hearts? My original point is that the FoH has the same right as any 75% shareholder in a company but has chosen to constrain itself as per its member agreed constitution. 
 

Did you vote on the governance arrangements last year, assuming you are a member?

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davemclaren
6 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

FoH are fantastic but I feel they are too far up Budge's backside. There, I said it.

For about the 50th time. 🤪

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Hampden Demolition

As I said on another thread, I would be happy for Budge to be appointed club president but we need a football minded CEO who can make decisions for footballing reasons. 

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Famous 1874

CEO has to be changed otherwise we will go down and years of this below mediocrity will continue 

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o1djambo
1 hour ago, Dunks said:

The AGM is later this month - raise any questions there.

 

I seem to recall the governance arrangements were voted through overwhelmingly at the time.

Yes they were. However I agreed just to keep the show on the road. Being informed that the club would be fan owned and not fan run of which we have been informed never asked to vote on. Common sense would tell us this but we should decide not be told. Also the show is no longer on the road but in the ditch. Been a member of FOH for 5 years now and have felt a bit manipulated and all too cosy at times. Very carefull thought required as to the role of Foh for the future. 

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o1djambo
34 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

I know, I disagreed with large parts of the governance and still do

And Me.

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i8hibsh
10 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

For about the 50th time. 🤪

 

 

How dare you say I repeat myself

How dare you say I repeat myself

How dare you say I repeat myself

How dare you say I repeat myself

How dare you say I repeat myself

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davemclaren
4 minutes ago, o1djambo said:

Yes they were. However I agreed just to keep the show on the road. Being informed that the club would be fan owned and not fan run of which we have been informed never asked to vote on. Common sense would tell us this but we should decide not be told. Also the show is no longer on the road but in the ditch. Been a member of FOH for 5 years now and have felt a bit manipulated and all too cosy at times. Very carefull thought required as to the role of Foh for the future. 

FoH was always going to be a challenge when we hit big problems. Didn’t expect it quite so soon though. 

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davemclaren
1 minute ago, o1djambo said:

And Me.

I didn’t agree with all of it but felt it was ultimately, after revision, a reasonable compromise. 

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Poseidon

Obviously not been running for a long but looks to be a decent proportion that would like some of change, although as we know, FoH has voted itself to have no real influence at the moment which is a shame.

 

Timing not great either given that no candidate has chosen to stand for the FoH board with a view to challenging the norm/governance but there's always the chance to contact the existing fan members on the FoH board to voice opinions.

 

If all that fails and we are (god forbid) in the same situation on the park (probably the biggest contributing factor) next time round then that'll be a good manifesto for someone to stand on.

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davemclaren
Just now, Poseidon said:

Obviously not been running for a long but looks to be a decent proportion that would like some of change, although as we know, FoH has voted itself to have no real influence at the moment which is a shame.

 

Timing not great either given that no candidate has chosen to stand for the FoH board with a view to challenging the norm/governance but there's always the chance to contact the existing fan members on the FoH board to voice opinions.

 

If all that fails and we are (god forbid) in the same situation on the park (probably the biggest contributing factor) next time round then that'll be a good manifesto for someone to stand on.

I was very surprised that there were no new candidates this time 

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jambobob61
12 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I thought that your original point was that FoH had no right to interfere in the running of Hearts? My original point is that the FoH has the same right as any 75% shareholder in a company but has chosen to constrain itself as per its member agreed constitution. 
 

Did you vote on the governance arrangements last year, assuming you are a member?

Yes I am a member so by your inference a genuine supporter, hence my interest in the governance and the lack of opportunity for the FoH board and ordinary FoH members to present a view that Anne B would possibly listen to. I lost faith when Anne B declared in the papers that she would not be influenced over Levein.

By your own admission the 75% chose to be constrained and are therefore an underclass of shareholder and absolutely not in a position to influence the football board and running of Hearts!

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scott herbertson

I voted other

 

We are better led as a business than any time in my lifetime. I do believe in fan ownership though. My preference would be a transition where things remain the same in the first year and AB is paid as CEO. She then moves up to an honorary function (?President?)  and a new CEO appointed by FOH takes the lead.

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davemclaren
1 minute ago, jambobob61 said:

Yes I am a member so by your inference a genuine supporter, hence my interest in the governance and the lack of opportunity for the FoH board and ordinary FoH members to present a view that Anne B would possibly listen to. I lost faith when Anne B declared in the papers that she would not be influenced over Levein.

By your own admission the 75% chose to be constrained and are therefore an underclass of shareholder and absolutely not in a position to influence the football board and running of Hearts!

There was no inference meant. I was more interested in whether you had just read the governance document now as opposed to a year ago. 
 

The 75% shares will be owned by FoH as an organisation which is, rightly, constrained by its members as per its constitution/governance. The members of FoH are not shareholders of Hearts. Not sure what you mean by underclass of shareholder. 

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davemclaren
3 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

I voted other

 

We are better led as a business than any time in my lifetime. I do believe in fan ownership though. My preference would be a transition where things remain the same in the first year and AB is paid as CEO. She then moves up to an honorary function (?President?)  and a new CEO appointed by FOH takes the lead.

I think something like that is pretty likely given where we are now. 

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jambobob61
18 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

There was no inference meant. I was more interested in whether you had just read the governance document now as opposed to a year ago. 
 

The 75% shares will be owned by FoH as an organisation which is, rightly, constrained by its members as per its constitution/governance. The members of FoH are not shareholders of Hearts. Not sure what you mean by underclass of shareholder. 

Gibberish!

The FoH members own the FoH. The FoH will  'own' the 75% of Hearts you say.

The 25% have full rights protected and possibly more?

The 75% have agreed an arms length relationship within a minority on the board(s) and no effective influence.

If it all goes wrong the 75% have no rights to any amount raised on sale of assets.

If that isn't 2 distinct levels of shareholder be it in person or in trust then I am at a loss as to what you are talking about and how you expect FoH to challenge the Hearts board?

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jambobob61
29 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I think something like that is pretty likely given where we are now. 

FoH does not appoint the CEO. It is included in the decision but has no majority!

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davemclaren
2 minutes ago, jambobob61 said:

Gibberish!

The FoH members own the FoH. The FoH will  'own' the 75% of Hearts you say.

The 25% have full rights protected and possibly more?

The 75% have agreed an arms length relationship within a minority on the board(s) and no effective influence.

If it all goes wrong the 75% have no rights to any amount raised on sale of assets.

If that isn't 2 distinct levels of shareholder be it in person or in trust then I am at a loss as to what you are talking about and how you expect FoH to challenge the Hearts board?

The individual members of FoH aren’t shareholders so there’s no ‘level’ to be considered for them. 
 

FoH, as 75% shareholder, has the same shareholder rights as the 25% and can use it’s majority as it wishes. It’s members has agreed a governance structure that limits how it will act with respect to the club and also how any proceeds will be used should the members agree  ( a super majority required iirc ) to sell the FoH share to another party. 

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davemclaren
3 minutes ago, jambobob61 said:

FoH does not appoint the CEO. It is included in the decision but has no majority!

Correct. The company ( Hearts ) board appoints the CEO which is what happens in all/most companies. 

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jambobob61
1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

The individual members of FoH aren’t shareholders so there’s no ‘level’ to be considered for them. 
 

FoH, as 75% shareholder, has the same shareholder rights as the 25% and can use it’s majority as it wishes. It’s members has agreed a governance structure that limits how it will act with respect to the club and also how any proceeds will be used should the members agree  ( a super majority required iirc ) to sell the FoH share to another party. 

Absolute rubbish!

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davemclaren
Just now, jambobob61 said:

Absolute rubbish!

Why?

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Jambo-Fox
1 hour ago, jambobob61 said:

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/governance/

 

Try reading it, it opened my eyes, if it ever came to it (and we obviously hope not) and Hearts are sold the FoH are due nothing from any sale. Look at Blackburn, left in trust by Jack Walker but only years later that was set aside! The future is not 'set'.

From the info available it appears the 25% minority are the only shareholders with rights?

That’s (sale) ok if it’s done properly.

 

The most important thing would be to sell to the correct new owner. And the second most important thing would be to sell at the best price. All money raised would go into the club (not pockets of FoH members).

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Dannie Boy

Is this the way forward every time we hit a bump on the road. 

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highlandjambo3

Let’s leave the thinking to the thinkers

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i8hibsh
3 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

Let’s leave the thinking to the thinkers

 

Woah woah stop. Rewind.

 

We have thinkers?

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highlandjambo3
Just now, i8hibsh said:

 

Woah woah stop. Rewind.

 

We have thinkers?

Course we do.......

I think it’s very important to think...

what do you think?

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jambobob61
1 hour ago, Jambo-Fox said:

That’s (sale) ok if it’s done properly.

 

The most important thing would be to sell to the correct new owner. And the second most important thing would be to sell at the best price. All money raised would go into the club (not pockets of FoH members).

1) Define correct owner, Vlad? The only offer made at what would be a time of crisis once more?

2) No mention anywhere of money raised going into 'new' club! Is this supposition/ hope on your part?

3) Best price! I'll buy it for e.g. £4m if I get the money straight back! Best price and Correct Owner are likely mutually exclusive!

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jambobob61
1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

Why?

This thread is about short term influence of FoH on Hearts.

Short term, none! It's Annes baw, she wants it she gets it!

Longer term little. FoH own 75% of next to nowt with 40% of any minor vote and an impossible dream to achieving a win on a major vote! The 25% hold sway, have the majority in decision making.

Who owns it, who controls it, who might benefit from it are all red herrings if it comes to another crash!

This mess has been created under Anne. She seems to have learned little on the football side in 5 years and for the past 3 made no preparation for life without Levein. The current manager recruitment debacle defies words. She is crushing hope and trust!

 

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loveofthegame

Leave Budge as Chairwoman but appoint a CEO who has a clue about football.

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davemclaren
1 minute ago, jambobob61 said:

This thread is about short term influence of FoH on Hearts.

Short term, none! It's Annes baw, she wants it she gets it!

Longer term little. FoH own 75% of next to nowt with 40% of any minor vote and an impossible dream to achieving a win on a major vote! The 25% hold sway, have the majority in decision making.

Who owns it, who controls it, who might benefit from it are all red herrings if it comes to another crash!

This mess has been created under Anne. She seems to have learned little on the football side in 5 years and for the past 3 made no preparation for life without Levein. The current manager recruitment debacle defies words. She is crushing hope and trust!

 

Ann currently has the majority holding but when she sells to FoH ( A few months away dependant on contributions ) they will have the majority holding. 

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