Maple Leaf Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 6 hours ago, Spellczech said: I've always regarded WW1 and WW2 as seperate ideological conflicts. WW1 was people fighting for King and Country, for nationalism and defence of Empire. This was why so many survivors came to resent the waste and pointlessness of it, but people had a different viewpoint about doing their duty at that time so they'd signed up en masse and broken off their lives to fight in trenches. WW2 was about defence of the island from expansionist Fascist ideology. There was a bit more nobility about it in the end and I don't think the veterans of WW2 felt so embittered in the aftermath. Regardless of what underlay the rationale for fighting, both these conflicts resulted in people who did not particularly want to be soldiers going off to war. For this reason, I don't associate Remembrance with other conflicts like the Falklands, Iraq and Afghanistan, where professional soldiers were doing the bidding of their political employers for geo-political reasons. Remembrance is about the sacrifice of volunteers who did what they did out of a sense of duty, not as a career choice. I think there is a move to try to keep rolling Remembrance to include other conflicts, but that is not how I personally believe it should be... I do believe that the Govt historically let down veterans and continued to do so right up until the last few years. Otherwise things like Help for Heroes would not exist, but for me Remembrance is about WW1 and WW2 only. Me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eusabio Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Whilst appreciating that the Ceremony has to be at Haymarket, there is a problem with being able to see the proceedings unless you are at the very front, although the sound is fine. As a suggestion, keep the main Ceremony as it is but set up a beam back to Tynecastle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eusabio Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Maple Leaf said: Me too. Sorry I don't agree. I served in Egypt and Cyprus on National Service and in both these places service personnel were killed and injured, and those of us who "Nashies" had no choice about serving or Where we served..> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Of The Cat Cafe Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 10/11/2019 at 11:51, davemclaren said: I think Haymarket is the most appropriate location given that’s where the club war memorial is. Just out of curiosity, why was it erected at Haymarket rather than Tynecastle Park? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, eusabio said: Sorry I don't agree. I served in Egypt and Cyprus on National Service and in both these places service personnel were killed and injured, and those of us who "Nashies" had no choice about serving or Where we served..> I know. Also in Korea, where National Servicemen were killed. "Old enough to be killed, but not old enough to vote". I was a NS man as well, although I had a safe posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, King Of The Cat Cafe said: Just out of curiosity, why was it erected at Haymarket rather than Tynecastle Park? Not sure why Haymarket was selected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanks said no Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 17 minutes ago, davemclaren said: Not sure why Haymarket was selected. To quote Jack Alexander from 2008 The clocktower is an Edinburgh - not just a Gorgie - landmark, unique in the world of sporting endeavour. It stands as a proud reminder of the sacrifice of a generation of young British sportsmen. I would hate to see it moved from its prominent position at Haymarket, to be tucked away beside the stadium. In the same way that many of us were very much against the plans to move it to Atholl Crescent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbojambo Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I got handed a leaflet on Saturday about a trip to the Somme. I wonder is this one that MacRaes Trust have organised or a profit making venture by a commercial operator. Looked good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maroon Sailor Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 16 hours ago, Maple Leaf said: I visited the Somme in 2004 and walked through as many cemeteries as possible, but I ran out of time before I ran out of cemeteries. As you say, it was incredibly emotional. My overwhelming feeling at the end was one of guilt. I can't explain why I felt guilty and after 15 years I still can't explain it. Maybe because they were young and dead, and I was older and alive, and I'm not sure what their deaths achieved. Our tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upgotheheads Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, jimbojambo said: .I got handed a leaflet on Saturday about a trip to the Somme. I wonder is this one that MacRaes Trust have organised or a profit making venture by a commercial operator. Looked good If it's a Bona Fide non-profit organisation attached to Hearts then do it, I went to the 2016 Somme commemoration on my own initiative, take at least three days to explore the area and read at least a couple of books on the battle, especially books written by participants before you go, there's plenty of them. It might change your views on how we 'celebrate/commemorate' the Great war, personally I have been reluctant to wear a poppy ever since, though I do, but only at Tynecastle on remembrance weekend. It's a compact area and you could even hire a bike to explore it, if there's three or four of you hiring a car would get you around very successfully. Don't miss Delville Wood, you'll never think about war and politics the same way again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 39 minutes ago, The Frenchman Returns said: To quote Jack Alexander from 2008 The clocktower is an Edinburgh - not just a Gorgie - landmark, unique in the world of sporting endeavour. It stands as a proud reminder of the sacrifice of a generation of young British sportsmen. I would hate to see it moved from its prominent position at Haymarket, to be tucked away beside the stadium. In the same way that many of us were very much against the plans to move it to Atholl Crescent Agreed. It belongs at a prominent and busy city centre junction and Haymarket as the closest such to Tynecastle is ideal. It was not just for Hearts fans to remember but also for the general public to remember in passing and not just once a year. On a another point I am uneasy about the increasing "ceremony" that not just here but everywhere seems to become more of a show every year. The focus should as it was for many decades a simple two minutes of silent reflection not some sort of entertainment, with often giant poppies and street decorations and artworks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upgotheheads Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: Agreed. It belongs at a prominent and busy city centre junction and Haymarket as the closest such to Tynecastle is ideal. It was not just for Hearts fans to remember but also for the general public to remember in passing and not just once a year. a show every yearOn a another point I am uneasy about the increasing "ceremony" that not just here but everywhere seems to become more of. The focus should as it was for many decades a simple two minutes of silent reflection not some sort of entertainment, with often giant poppies and street decorations and artworks. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upgotheheads Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 On 12/11/2019 at 06:58, Spellczech said: I've always regarded WW1 and WW2 as seperate ideological conflicts. WW1 was people fighting for King and Country, for nationalism and defence of Empire. This was why so many survivors came to resent the waste and pointlessness of it, but people had a different viewpoint about doing their duty at that time so they'd signed up en masse and broken off their lives to fight in trenches. WW2 was about defence of the island from expansionist Fascist ideology. There was a bit more nobility about it in the end and I don't think the veterans of WW2 felt so embittered in the aftermath. Regardless of what underlay the rationale for fighting, both these conflicts resulted in people who did not particularly want to be soldiers going off to war. For this reason, I don't associate Remembrance with other conflicts like the Falklands, Iraq and Afghanistan, where professional soldiers were doing the bidding of their political employers for geo-political reasons. Remembrance is about the sacrifice of volunteers who did what they did out of a sense of duty, not as a career choice. I think there is a move to try to keep rolling Remembrance to include other conflicts, but that is not how I personally believe it should be... I do believe that the Govt historically let down veterans and continued to do so right up until the last few years. Otherwise things like Help for Heroes would not exist, but for me Remembrance is about WW1 and WW2 only. I agree with most of what you say, but we should also remember those who have been killed and wounded in more recent conflicts. The soldiers who carry the burden most are always the PBI (poor bloody infantry) quite literally poor because that's who the infantry mostly recruit while politicians, as ever, never go near the bullets. Also never forget the Arms Industry, of which so many seem so proud , and which makes so much money for shareholders, many of whom would have been wearing poppies over last weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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