General Election 2019

[dobmisterdobster]

😄

[Victorian]

Lindsay Hoyle saying he would not allow parliament the ability to take control of the order paper, etc.    In relation to the kind of anti- no deal MP proceedures allowed by Bercow.

 

Hmmmm....

 

 

Would ye nut,  aye?

 

Lindsay Hoyle's Chorley constituency was 56% leave.

 

[Francis Albert]

The reintroduction of workhouses and debtor prisons and abolition of the NHS has certainly been an unfortunate development.

 

VICTORIAN style indeed. Well worth capitalising.

 

Jeez. 

[Class of 75]

1 hour ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Exactly. Corbyn is proposing a "lifetime gifts tax" which is designed to target the lower-middle class not the mega rich.

He wants a state monopoly on education where private schools could have their assets seized.

These are not ordinary Labour policies.

Agree. Neither is the forcible seizure of public shares from investors 

[Class of 75]

56 minutes ago, RobboM said:

Of course, but the debate in the past page or 2 has been about "traditional" Labour versus  extremist "Corbyn" labour and my contribution was on that argument.

Incidently, since you mention the Berlin Wall, traditional Labour included a commitment to " the mutual and concurrent phasing out of NATO and the Warsaw Pact. "

With no Warsaw Pact would Corbyn be traditional or extreme to commit to the ending of NATO?

He would be extreme when he intends to reverse UK foreign policy and reject the traditional alliance with the US and replace with closer ties to Russia 

[Class of 75]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

 

The public sector and services have been degraded by such a level that they now require a radical investment.     It's certainly not communism.    It's rescuing our key services from horrendous decline.     Borrowing to invest and build a real economy.     If some grossly rewarded fat cats are disadvantaged along the way then it matters not a ****.

 

For the many.

You mention for the many which in politics is a reference to John Stuart Mill and Liberalism. I am afraid the current Labour Party are not thinking about the greatest good for the greatest number and are instead looking after their own section of the electorate. 

[Class of 75]

18 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Lindsay Hoyle saying he would not allow parliament the ability to take control of the order paper, etc.    In relation to the kind of anti- no deal MP proceedures allowed by Bercow.

 

Hmmmm....

 

 

Would ye nut,  aye?

 

Lindsay Hoyle's Chorley constituency was 56% leave.

 

Old Labour, a true gentleman. 

[dobmisterdobster]

18 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Lindsay Hoyle saying he would not allow parliament the ability to take control of the order paper, etc.    In relation to the kind of anti- no deal MP proceedures allowed by Bercow.

 

Hmmmm....

 

 

Would ye nut,  aye?

 

Lindsay Hoyle's Chorley constituency was 56% leave.

 

The Speaker's seat is uncontested by any party except for the Greens, UKIP etc.

 

His constituents aren't going to turf him out I'm any case.

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

What is everyone's obsession with Israel?

Enough is enough!

I agree. But this dude is now on the payroll of the Tories. He's gonnae shout for his new masters. Oh and he's Jewish and sees the LP leadership as anti-Semitic.

[dobmisterdobster]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

I agree. But this dude is now on the payroll of the Tories. He's gonnae shout for his new masters. Oh and he's Jewish and sees the LP leadership as anti-Semitic.

Who are you talking about?

[Justin Z]

2 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

No it is not. The Labour Party of say the post war years is completely the Polar opposite to the current incarnation. If you can't see that then I am afraid you don't understand politics 

 

Okay boomer

[ri Alban]

3 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Who are you talking about?

Ian Austin, the ex Labour MP who was appointed trade envoy to Israel by Theresa May and is now telling folk to vote for the Tories.

 

 

[maroonlegions]

41 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

The budgets for warfare and the NHS are higher than they have ever been.

 

Whether giving them more money has been effective is debatable.

 

Shite.

 

Not according to FRONT line NHS workers like Doctors , senior consultants  ect..

 

Time and time again NHS staff have said they are struggling due to CHRONIC UNDERFUNDING. 

 

So the budget for welfare is higher than ever you said.

 

Pity that could not save these people who died or suffered from this current welfare system.

 

 

 

[maroonlegions]

From misleading DWP ads to doctored TV footage, here’s proof you can’t trust a word the Tories say | The Canary

[maroonlegions]

Remember these faces.

 

 

 

These are the MPs who voted to keep government Windrush documents secret

[Class of 75]

46 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Okay boomer

Aye OK. I'm the one with the Politics degree but obviously talking nonsense. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Class of 75

[RobboM]

1 minute ago, maroonlegions said:

Remember these faces.

 

 

 

These are the MPs who voted to keep government Windrush documents secret

... and cover up the report on Russian interference in the Brexit referendum

Keeping people in ignorance is almost offical Johnson Government policy

[Class of 75]

43 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Ian Austin, the ex Labour MP who was appointed trade envoy to Israel by Theresa May and is now telling folk to vote for the Tories.

 

 

I am sure it will not just be Ian Austin. Respectable Labour MPs such as Kate Hoey and Frank Fields would probably think along similar lines. 

[RobboM]

3 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Aye OK. I'm the one with the Politics degree but obviously talking nonsense. 

That's right up there with a Z list celebrity complaining "Don't you know who I am??"

[Mikey1874]

2 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

I am sure it will not just be Ian Austin. Respectable Labour MPs such as Kate Hoey and Frank Fields would probably think along similar lines. 

 

They are not Labour MPs. 

[Victorian]

55 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

The Speaker's seat is uncontested by any party except for the Greens, UKIP etc.

 

His constituents aren't going to turf him out I'm any case.

 

Ah yes,  did not take that into account.   Suspicious rant retracted.    

[Class of 75]

3 minutes ago, RobboM said:

That's right up there with a Z list celebrity complaining "Don't you know who I am??"

Of course. I know a few people. 🤣

[RobboM]

Just now, Class of 75 said:

Of course. I know a few people. 🤣

You'd certainly never catch me mentioning, even obliquely, that I have a Politics degree too 😋

[Class of 75]

5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

They are not Labour MPs. 

Kate Hoey still is a member of the Labour Party and Frank Field although removed from the Whip has disputed his withdrawal of membership from the party. 

[Class of 75]

1 minute ago, RobboM said:

You'd certainly never catch me mentioning, even obliquely, that I have a Politics degree too 😋

Good. Where did you study? 

[RobboM]

3 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Good. Where did you study? 

This is how online fraudsters gather their precious information! 😉

Suffice to say down South and it was a long long time ago

[Justin Z]

32 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Aye OK. I'm the one with the Politics degree but obviously talking nonsense. 

 

You do love to bring that up. I'd be forced to say you clearly haven't learned a thing since. As someone earlier in the thread said, a lot has happened since the 70s.

 

28 minutes ago, RobboM said:

That's right up there with a Z list celebrity complaining "Don't you know who I am??"

 

Classic

[Justin Z]

24 minutes ago, RobboM said:

You'd certainly never catch me mentioning, even obliquely, that I have a Politics degree too 😋

 

Haha weird it's almost like you can have a strongly supported opinion with or without a piece of paper, and you can also have a load of rubbish with one.

[Space Mackerel]

Lol. 
 

 

[RobboM]

46 minutes ago, RobboM said:

... and cover up the report on Russian interference in the Brexit referendum

Keeping people in ignorance is almost offical Johnson Government policy

And another report suppressed for now. This time blocked for falling in the election period. A suspicious person would wonder if the report could have been released yesterday had it been good news.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-government-debt-deficit-economy-fiscal-watchdog-block-a9189381.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&#Echobox=1573146435

[Victorian]

Who was it again who compared Muslim women to suicide bombers and letterboxes?

 

But... "i wouldn't say Boris Johnson is unfit to be PM in the same way as Corbyn... I mean,   if you're not going to do the right thing on racism,   when would you do the right thing?"

 

Aye mate,   good yin.     

 

How that ***** sleeps at night is a mystery.      

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, maroonlegions said:

 

Shite.

 

Not according to FRONT line NHS workers like Doctors , senior consultants  ect..

 

Time and time again NHS staff have said they are struggling due to CHRONIC UNDERFUNDING. 

 

So the budget for welfare is higher than ever you said.

 

Pity that could not save these people who died or suffered from this current welfare system.

 

 

 

As far as I can see none of these tragic cases have anything to do with underfunding of the NHS and welfare services (although of course they are and always will be underfunded). Unless you believe that benefit claims should never be challenged they are in fact examples of another problem - waste of resources and inefficiency. They should never have got anywhere near a DWP assessment if any efficient process was in place to screen claims and possible abuse of claims.

 

 

PS and of course in relation to the earlier absurd claim that we are being dragged back to VICTORIAN standards … this wasn't a problem in Victorian times because there weren't any benefits.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Adam Murray]

Is there any chance that any of the msm or the parties themselves, will focus on the positives, the difference certain parties or people can make to other peoples lives, or the countries future, or is it just going to be five weeks of slagging each other off.

Five weeks of, 'But, but, but, he/she/they can't do this, he/she/they done this, blah, blah, blah'

Politics is really at an all time low in this country, where the option for the voter is to pick the person or party whose just slightly not as bad as the others.

[Victorian]

Tories promise HUGE NUMBER investment.     "This is the time to borrow to invest.  We can borrow at negative interest rates".      Labour promise HUGE NUMBER investment.    Javid says it's fantasy economics and that the economy will crash.

 

Aye mate,   good yin.

 

The reality is Labour will borrow and spread the burden of managing the increased borrowing in a fairer way.    The Tories will borrow and the burden will be hoyed straight onto the least well off and JAMs of society.

 

The Tories will honour some of their bullshit promises.    It wont be the core Tory vote paying for it.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Victorian

[Class of 75]

1 hour ago, RobboM said:

This is how online fraudsters gather their precious information! 😉

Suffice to say down South and it was a long long time ago

No mate I am on the level. I studied up here also a long time ago 😂

[Class of 75]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

You do love to bring that up. I'd be forced to say you clearly haven't learned a thing since. As someone earlier in the thread said, a lot has happened since the 70s.

 

 

Classic

I do indeed mate. Proud of it though. 👍

[AlphonseCapone]

It's stupid and it's immature but I'd take a Tory majority in exchange for Jo Swinson being sucked into a black hole.

[Justin Z]

10 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

I do indeed mate. Proud of it though. 👍

 

Certainly every reason to be! But your appeals to authority on that basis are no good.

[Jambo dans les Pyrenees]

51 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

As far as I can see none of these tragic cases have anything to do with underfunding of the NHS and welfare services (although of course they are and always will be underfunded). Unless you believe that benefit claims should never be challenged they are in fact examples of another problem - waste of resources and inefficiency. They should never have got anywhere near a DWP assessment if any efficient process was in place to screen claims and possible abuse of claims.

 

 

PS and of course in relation to the earlier absurd claim that we are being dragged back to VICTORIAN standards … this wasn't a problem in Victorian times because there weren't any benefits.

 

I don't think it's about a process, effective or not.

 

It's a pervasive negative culture of demeaning those who have a welfare need.  Demonising the poor as if they somehow are deserving of contempt.

 

Just basic humanity.

[Class of 75]

27 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Certainly every reason to be! But your appeals to authority on that basis are no good.

I know mate I just wanted to make sure that I was speaking from an educated view point and wasn't taken as someone who had no clue. 

[Justin Z]

4 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

I know mate I just wanted to make sure that I was speaking from an educated view point and wasn't taken as someone who had no clue. 

 

And that's understandable too, but telling people they don't understand politics because you got a degree in it 45 years ago is not on.

[Shanks said no]

Question Time from Glasgow tonight

 

Conservative Kirstene Hair, shadow international trade secretary Barry Gardiner, Scottish government justice secretary Humza Yousaf, journalist and broadcaster Angela Haggerty, and businessman Iain Anderson.

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Adam Murray said:

Is there any chance that any of the msm or the parties themselves, will focus on the positives, the difference certain parties or people can make to other peoples lives, or the countries future, or is it just going to be five weeks of slagging each other off.

Five weeks of, 'But, but, but, he/she/they can't do this, he/she/they done this, blah, blah, blah'

Politics is really at an all time low in this country, where the option for the voter is to pick the person or party whose just slightly not as bad as the others.

 

A lot of the media love the drama - Tom Watson leaving. The ex Labour MPs saying vote Conservative. The Welsh Conservative MP with the rape case. 

 

Hopefully it will be the policies that take the attention. 

[Francis Albert]

46 minutes ago, Queensland Jambo said:

 

I don't think it's about a process, effective or not.

 

It's a pervasive negative culture of demeaning those who have a welfare need.  Demonising the poor as if they somehow are deserving of contempt.

 

Just basic humanity.

Not sure I understand. If you accept that claimants should be faced with some sort of process of challenge then it is all about the nature and efficiency and yes humanity of the process

Are you saying claimants should only need to.make claim? 

[Jambo Jim]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

As far as I can see none of these tragic cases have anything to do with underfunding of the NHS and welfare services (although of course they are and always will be underfunded). Unless you believe that benefit claims should never be challenged they are in fact examples of another problem - waste of resources and inefficiency. They should never have got anywhere near a DWP assessment if any efficient process was in place to screen claims and possible abuse of claims.

 

 

PS and of course in relation to the earlier absurd claim that we are being dragged back to VICTORIAN standards … this wasn't a problem in Victorian times because there weren't any benefits.

Underfunding and target setting leads to the despicable results we see above. If the same resource was spent “challenging” the rich and the super rich about their tax habits then we may save the taxpayer who is funding the NHS and welfare service the need to waste resources challenging the sick and disabled about whether they can rise off there sick bed to get a zero hrs contract or some minimum wage deal. Your comment on “Victorian Standards” is quite frankly deplorable. To suggest that “this wasn’t a problem” in Victorian Times must be a bad attempt at humour.

 

[Jambo dans les Pyrenees]

10 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Not sure I understand. If you accept that claimants should be faced with some sort of process of challenge then it is all about the nature and efficiency and yes humanity of the process

Are you saying claimants should only need to.make claim? 

 

My point is that defects in process which have this negative impact for so long don't normally go unfixed - unless - at a higher than process level (cultural, ideological, call it what you will) there is a desire to actually end up with this result, or at least to tolerate the collateral damage.  Look at the examples in the original post - people with downs syndrome; letters from GP's etc but still the "process" or it's application did harm.  

 

I'm saying that any process needs to be fair and proportionate, and not driven by an inhumane and morally contemptable dogma.

 

For us to have an intelligent and constructive debate, it's right that I offer the benefit of the doubt and hope that I've aided your understanding and also acknowledge that you've taken on board the point on humanity.  But it's poor form to lead the witness, and try to put words in his or her mouth that would narrow the argument.  If you don't understand, just ask.

 

[Jambo Jim]

23 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Not sure I understand. If you accept that claimants should be faced with some sort of process of challenge then it is all about the nature and efficiency and yes humanity of the process

Are you saying claimants should only need to.make claim? 

The “process of challenge” should be driven by acceptance of the limitations of the condition suffered and an encouragement to engage with the client to move forward in a supportive way. The removal or reduction of a benefit should be the last not first sanction.    The Tory  philosophy has always been to demonise the unemployed, the sick and disabled and ensure that their  friends in the right wing media support and back them up in suggesting that they are responsible for the problems we face in society. The problem is that they  seem to have a receptive audience amongst traditional working class people than ever before. 

[Francis Albert]

15 minutes ago, Queensland Jambo said:

 

My point is that defects in process which have this negative impact for so long don't normally go unfixed - unless - at a higher than process level (cultural, ideological, call it what you will) there is a desire to actually end up with this result, or at least to tolerate the collateral damage.  Look at the examples in the original post - people with downs syndrome; letters from GP's etc but still the "process" or it's application did harm.  

 

I'm saying that any process needs to be fair and proportionate, and not driven by an inhumane and morally contemptable dogma.

 

For us to have an intelligent and constructive debate, it's right that I offer the benefit of the doubt and hope that I've aided your understanding and also acknowledge that you've taken on board the point on humanity.  But it's poor form to lead the witness, and try to put words in his or her mouth that would narrow the argument.  If you don't understand, just ask.

 

I asked a question which you chose to ignore. Do you think.benefit claimants should be subject to some sort of process to justify their claim. The process should of course be efficient and fair

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Jambo Jim]

14 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I asked a question which you chose to ignore. Do you think.benefit claimants should be subject to some sort of process to justify their claim. The process should of course be efficient and fair

 

 

Can I ask FA why the sick and disabled seem to be on your hit list. I know from 20 years in the Employment Service fraud services that Tory govt policies are not driven by social justice. Not even by monitory savings but but social stigma and Daily Mail support.

 

[Pans Jambo]

Interesting list of who voted on what.