In the current climate...

[busby1985]

.....should we be pressurising Hearts to start acting on bigotry? As much as some of our own fans don’t like it, we seem to be the only club in Scotland that actively polices its own fans properly. We act on every incident and take proper steps to eradicate our own problem. We can argue if the way in which we act is correct on another thread, the point is that we do act, other clubs simply don’t. On Sunday for example, we have opened ourselves up to scrutiny by doing the right thing, looking to investigate that nonsense twitter allegation. Everyone and their dog can see that there was no racist slur/incident but instead of ignoring it, we have given the allegation proper thought. We never hesitate when it comes to investigating these situation and because no other club seems to take the same stance, we look like we have a huge problem. When In fact, it’s just that we are the only club really self policing. 
 

Take Sunday again as an example. Rangers have offered no such thought to the sectarian singing from 4500 of their own fans. Rangers haven’t opened any investigation into the chanting of the UVF, UDA etx. Then there is the fact that no one in the press has picked up on that either, kinda highlights the BIGGEST problem we have in the Scottish game. How can we openly talk about stamping out racism but no one wants to talk about bigotry? We can allow people to sing about killing Catholics, Protestants. We can allow songs about the IRA, the UDA, the UVF. We can’t allow hatred due to someone’s skin colour in our game but we can allow and ignore hatred towards someone due to their religion? It doesn’t make sense. 
 

So, as the only club in Scotland actively policing our own problems. Should we be looking to work with the club to start some form of campaign to tackle this sort of stuff or is the problem societies problem and let them deal with it? Like, would you support the club if it walked off at Celtic Park if 60k Celtic fans were chanting “the wee huns are sh*te” or if they walked off at Ibrox cause 50k were singing about the UVF?  Is that a stance yous would support? 

[jambostuart]

I think the biggest issue is we don't call other teams out. I'm aware you said it's an argument for another thread how we police our fans, and that's fair, but my gripe is we aren't mentioning 4500 fans singing or the Rangers radio guy calling Uche a "darkie" (although I understand in the context he said it, while the word used is ignorant, there was no motivation of racial hatred in it). 

 

As a club we have many bampots in our fans being weeded out so I guess we want to sort our own house out before throwing disparaging remarks at other clubs, however we should be highligting the issues exist within Scottish Football as a whole and while we are taking action, the media and other clubs are turning a blind eye to other corners. 

 

[busby1985]

2 minutes ago, jambostuart said:

I think the biggest issue is we don't call other teams out. I'm aware you said it's an argument for another thread how we police our fans, and that's fair, but my gripe is we aren't mentioning 4500 fans singing or the Rangers radio guy calling Uche a "darkie" (although I understand in the context he said it, while the word used is ignorant, there was no motivation of racial hatred in it). 

 

As a club we have many bampots in our fans being weeded out so I guess we want to sort our own house out before throwing disparaging remarks at other clubs, however we should be highligting the issues exist within Scottish Football as a whole and while we are taking action, the media and other clubs are turning a blind eye to other corners. 

 

I think we have, for the past 5 years, been consistent in the policing of our own fans. Like we said, rightly or wrongly can be debated on another thread, but we have been consistent at self policing. I know feel we are at a point where we can self police and highlight incidents of other fans, especially at home. Nothing wrong with us saying that as a club we no longer want away fans coming to tynie and singing offensive songs. Last season our manager had to stand on the touchline and listen to 30000 Celtic fans sing about how he was “a sad orange b*stard”. Was barely reported on and Celtic faced no punishment or scrutiny over it. I think it’s time we started acting as a club. 

[Robbo-Jambo]

3 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

I think we have, for the past 5 years, been consistent in the policing of our own fans. Like we said, rightly or wrongly can be debated on another thread, but we have been consistent at self policing. I know feel we are at a point where we can self police and highlight incidents of other fans, especially at home. Nothing wrong with us saying that as a club we no longer want away fans coming to tynie and singing offensive songs. Last season our manager had to stand on the touchline and listen to 30000 Celtic fans sing about how he was “a sad orange b*stard”. Was barely reported on and Celtic faced no punishment or scrutiny over it. I think it’s time we started acting as a club. 

Think these 2 from Glasgow will always get away with it. 

 

The reason why is they say it is a minority of their supports.

 

That is frankly a lot of sh*te. 

 

There is more than a minority by a long way and they know they can't risk getting rid of a rather large per cent of their sad knuckle draggers who live in the past and will never change.

 

The authorities know that they sing constantly about religion but they are sh*t scared of doing anything about it. 😕

[The Treasurer]

To do as the OP suggests opens up our club to getting slaughtered whenever there is the slightest incident involving our own fans.

[busby1985]

Just now, The Treasurer said:

To do as the OP suggests opens up our club to getting slaughtered whenever there is the slightest incident involving our own fans.

Do you not agree that out of all the top 12 sides in the SPFL, we have probably the best stance on self policing? I don’t think we should be scared to stand up to these issues in fear of the spotlight being shown on us. We can tackle both. In my opinion of course. 

[kila]

Criticise the Old Firm and they won't take away ticket allocations for the clubs complaining. Might not be a dent in the Hearts finances but it is on other clubs, hence why they agree to sweep.

 

SFA suits are no doubt benefiting from Old Firm dealings, so they too won't want to shake the foundations too much. And the merry-go-round continues.

[busby1985]

Just now, kila said:

Criticise the Old Firm and they won't take away ticket allocations for the clubs complaining. Might not be a dent in the Hearts finances but it is on other clubs, hence why they agree to sweep.

 

SFA suits are no doubt benefiting from Old Firm dealings, so they too won't want to shake the foundations too much. And the merry-go-round continues.

Yeah I don’t dispute that. My point was more about us, Hearts making a stance. If Rangers fans were chanting about Uche being a “d*rky” then we’d be furious and demanding the club acted. We turn a blind eye to them singing songs that Mulraney, Whelan, Doyle and all the other catholic or Irish people connected to Hearts may find offensive Tho. I think in the current climate and with the spotlight firmly on eradicating this sort of stuff, id like to see Hearts act. 

[kila]

4 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

Yeah I don’t dispute that. My point was more about us, Hearts making a stance. If Rangers fans were chanting about Uche being a “d*rky” then we’d be furious and demanding the club acted. We turn a blind eye to them singing songs that Mulraney, Whelan, Doyle and all the other catholic or Irish people connected to Hearts may find offensive Tho. I think in the current climate and with the spotlight firmly on eradicating this sort of stuff, id like to see Hearts act. 

 

Yep, I think Hearts should reduce their allocation back to two sections regardless of whether we can fill the rest or not.

 

Was great when we did that prior to the new stand and increased capacity. Really muted their song book. Though beating Celtic 4-0 was that bit sweeter given they filled the Roseburn...

 

 

[busby1985]

4 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Yep, I think Hearts should reduce their allocation back to two sections regardless of whether we can fill the rest or not.

 

Was great when we did that prior to the new stand and increased capacity. Really muted their song book. Though beating Celtic 4-0 was that bit sweeter given they filled the Roseburn...

 

 

Yeah I’d like to see that. I’d also like to see us say why we are reducing the allocation. Highlight the sectarian singing etc. We need to stop hiding from it. 

[alwaysthereinspirit]

The Scottish government does nothing.

The Scottish police do nothing.

The Scottish football association does nothing.

The two clubs do nothing.

Why should we waste our time and our money on policing away fans.

Budge is doing the best she can on the home front. Let’s stick to what we can control.

The Neanderthals will continue their wicked beliefs right up until the government gets involved.

so forever and a day.

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by alwaysthereinspirit

[jambokev]

7 minutes ago, alwaysthereinspirit said:

The Scottish government does nothing.

The Scottish police do nothing.

The Scottish football association does nothing.

The two clubs do nothing.

Why should we waste our time and our money on policing away fans.

Budge is doing the best she can on the home front. Let’s stick to what we can control.

The Neanderthals will continue their wicked beliefs right up until the government gets involved.

so forever and a day.

 

[busby1985]

19 minutes ago, alwaysthereinspirit said:

The Scottish government does nothing.

The Scottish police do nothing.

The Scottish football association does nothing.

The two clubs do nothing.

Why should we waste our time and our money on policing away fans.

Budge is doing the best she can on the home front. Let’s stick to what we can control.

The Neanderthals will continue their wicked beliefs right up until the government gets involved.

so forever and a day.

 

I don’t disagree with any of that. I don’t mean that we police the away fans, I just think we should be highlighting ALL forms of unacceptable behaviour. We’ve set the bar with how we deal with our own fans, let’s start doing the same with away fans. 

[Rudolf]

21 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

Yeah I’d like to see that. I’d also like to see us say why we are reducing the allocation. Highlight the sectarian singing etc. We need to stop hiding from it. 

To be fair, we have cut their allocation to some degree with both bottom end sections empty, along with three or four rows directly behind the goals.

 

The whole stand only holds circa 3,400 so less than 3,000 of them there on Sunday. 

[joondalupjambo]

Rangers just announced a plea to fans going to the Porto game not to sing songs UEFA deem unacceptable.  Full article on BBC sport site.

Of course they are doing this not because it is the right thing to do but because they know another breach will get them fined again or worse still get sections of Ibrox closed for the home leg. Rangers know this will happen so they address the issue.

If the SFA followed the same protocols as UEFA and view sectarianism as as racist issue the problem would go a long way to getting solved.  Hit them in the pocket as soon as the songs start and continue to do so until they stop.

As many have said on here the SFA need to grow a pair.

[avhudtheteeshirt]

6 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Rangers just announced a plea to fans going to the Porto game not to sing songs UEFA deem unacceptable.  Full article on BBC sport site.

Of course they are doing this not because it is the right thing to do but because they know another breach will get them fined again or worse still get sections of Ibrox closed for the home leg. Rangers know this will happen so they address the issue.

If the SFA followed the same protocols as UEFA and view sectarianism as as racist issue the problem would go a long way to getting solved.  Hit them in the pocket as soon as the songs start and continue to do so until they stop.

As many have said on here the SFA need to grow a pair.

If the SFA followed the same protocols, do you think it would be Rangers or Celtic who would be punished first?

For me it will be Aberdeen, Hibs or us to get the first closure, the Uglies will be deemed it been going on for years so its normal to get it at their grounds!!!

Ann Budge is trying to clean out the bad side of our support, yet many on this forum don't always back her stance!

The best we can hope for is getting all our support to behave respectfully to who ever we are playing against, that way no one can point the finger of blame at our support!!!!

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, The Treasurer said:

To do as the OP suggests opens up our club to getting slaughtered whenever there is the slightest incident involving our own fans.

That’s kind of happening right now anyway. 

[JamboAl]

Sectarianism and colour prejudice are wrong.

That said, if the Glasgow ref had taken action against Morelos the incident may have beem largely avoided.

In fact, if the Glasgow ref had taken action last season, he presumably would not have tried to bait Hearts fans with his celebrations.

I haven't yet read read anything untoward about Morelos' antagonistic behaviour.

[joondalupjambo]

23 minutes ago, avhudtheteeshirt said:

If the SFA followed the same protocols, do you think it would be Rangers or Celtic who would be punished first?

For me it will be Aberdeen, Hibs or us to get the first closure, the Uglies will be deemed it been going on for years so its normal to get it at their grounds!!!

Ann Budge is trying to clean out the bad side of our support, yet many on this forum don't always back her stance!

The best we can hope for is getting all our support to behave respectfully to who ever we are playing against, that way no one can point the finger of blame at our support!!!!

I hear you.

Any major change is hard.

Having UEFA protocols could mean we could have UEFA officials at matches, maybe that might work if it could be implemented. They would have no baggage in terms of being local so could that work?

It would simply mean a list of do not do's and then reporting back by non SFA people if any breaches.

Big change I know but by thinking bigger and wider there is more chance of real change.  UEFA getting involved because SFA not implementing their ober arching protocols would be the challenge.  Not impossible though surely.

Oh and if other clubs outside the OF breach the rules they deserve punishment so it should not be a case of us and them, we would all be bound by any new protocols.  

Perhaps I just want to keep believing that change can be achieved and things will improve. As you say all we can do at the moment is sort ourselves out thus we lead by example.  If we stop believing then we give up.

 

 

[Finlay James]

If the SFA were to deduct clubs 3 points each time their fans sang offensive songs, the clubs would soon act and hand out bans

[7628mm]

2 minutes ago, Finlay James said:

If the SFA were to deduct clubs 3 points each time their fans sang offensive songs, the clubs would soon act and hand out bans

To any clubs apart from 2 you just know it will not happen to THEM.

Edited October 23, 2019 by 7628mm

[busby1985]

I like that Rangers ask the fans not to stop the bigotry, just asking them not to sing the songs UEFA deem offensive. There in lies the problem. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by busby1985

[alwaysthereinspirit]

2 hours ago, busby1985 said:

I don’t disagree with any of that. I don’t mean that we police the away fans, I just think we should be highlighting ALL forms of unacceptable behaviour. We’ve set the bar with how we deal with our own fans, let’s start doing the same with away fans. 

We'll be p!$$ing into the wind. No one in Scotland cares enough. At least anyone with any power to do something. We still allow marches to walk our streets promoting the hate.

We laugh about refs not wanting their house windows tanned in. We're actually being serious. Its happened. 

[Neon]

2 hours ago, Finlay James said:

If the SFA were to deduct clubs 3 points each time their fans sang offensive songs, the clubs would soon act and hand out bans

Due to possible and frankly the likelihood of opposing fans singing offensive songs in the other end of the ground this will never happen.

 

To the OP, we should sort out our own fans and are doing so, by such actions we should also be gathering evidence we can bring to bare

that will be irrefutable in the future regarding other teams behavior in our ground.

 

At least that is what I hope is happening.

 

 

[busby1985]

18 minutes ago, neonjambo said:

Due to possible and frankly the likelihood of opposing fans singing offensive songs in the other end of the ground this will never happen.

 

To the OP, we should sort out our own fans and are doing so, by such actions we should also be gathering evidence we can bring to bare

that will be irrefutable in the future regarding other teams behavior in our ground.

 

At least that is what I hope is happening.

 

 

That’s what I also hope is happening. Getting our house in order is absolutely fine. For me tho, we have a duty to protect our own fans and players from bigotry. The abuse Levein received from Celtic fans last season was a joke, it was that bad that it was briefly mentioned at a Celtic board meeting, it then turned into how the song they were singing was brought to these shores by rangers 🙄. We have been consistent with our self policing the past 5 years, I wanna see us start standing up against it. 

[Des Lynam]

We cannot sort society’s ills. 

[Absolute Scenes]

Craig Levein

[SectionDJambo]

Scotland is a small country, which has a disease of sectarianism that isn't dealt with by any organisation of authority, due to a fear of repercussion from the bigoted hordes. It has been going on for so long, it has become part of Scotland's dna. 

It has become acceptable to show hatred towards others, based entirely on loose connections to religion. I say "loose", because only a minority of the morons who have these tribal tendencies, actually practice religion by attending church or chapel on a Sunday. The only time they see the inside of a place of worship, is when they attend a wedding, funeral or christening.

We all wonder at the extremes we hear of, through the news channels, from the middle east, and decry the nutters who carry out terrorist acts in Europe,  in the name of Islam. We say that, in this day and age, why would anyone still think that some heavenly body will actually reward them for having such violent hatred of others, simply because of their lack of being part of their religious group. It's not that long ago that murderous groups in Northern Ireland caused untold misery, to many innocent people, in the name of sectarianism between Protestant and Roman Catholic communities.

And yet, our country has an abnormal number of people who still think of others as being an enemy because they attach themselves to one half of a nonsensical religious devide. They are dangerous idiots.

Football, in Scotland, has been infected by this disease from the start. It's time that some club stood up and made it clear that it is no longer acceptable. The SFA have shown themselves incapable of taking action, maybe because they are infected by the disease. It would make me happy if my club, Heart of Midlothian, were the first club to take punitive steps against the 2 main sources of this disease, Rangers and Celtic followers, by drastically reducing their allocation at Tynecastle, until they stop glorifying terrorism and singing sectarian songs in our home.

It would be yet another example of the courage that our club has shown during it's history.

[Smoked-Glass]

Is section N still the rule britania section of the ground? 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Smoked-Glass

[Fozzyonthefence]

6 hours ago, joondalupjambo said:

 

If the SFA followed the same protocols as UEFA and view sectarianism as as racist issue the problem would go a long way to getting solved.  Hit them in the pocket as soon as the songs start and continue to do so until they stop.

As many have said on here the SFA need to grow a pair.

The SFA can’t take the same action as UEFA as they don’t have the power to do this.  UEFA operates strict liability on the clubs in the European competitions.  We don’t have strict liability in Scotland and never will because guess which two clubs would never vote for it?!

[coatbridgejambo]

7 hours ago, busby1985 said:

I don’t disagree with any of that. I don’t mean that we police the away fans, I just think we should be highlighting ALL forms of unacceptable behaviour. We’ve set the bar with how we deal with our own fans, let’s start doing the same with away fans. 

would be great, but we want that old firm $$$

[H2]

Sectarianism is taught and begins at home, then at school. The problems need to be addressed at the roots.

[Shaggy2]

I might be imagining this, but did Ann Budge not receive widespread criticism from Celtic and the media when she suggested they should control their fans? I’m sure there had been an incident which yet again (not criticising here) led to Hearts taking action against a couple of idiots in our support and Ann suggested that their mob were not entirely innocent. Might have been the night their fans were filmed from the old stand fighting with police.

 

The suggestion that we lead the way is a good one, but the two cheeks are not interested, I’m afraid. Neither are the SFA or higher due to the fear of losing £’s/votes. 

[The Treasurer]

16 hours ago, busby1985 said:

Do you not agree that out of all the top 12 sides in the SPFL, we have probably the best stance on self policing? I don’t think we should be scared to stand up to these issues in fear of the spotlight being shown on us. We can tackle both. In my opinion of course. 

It's not for Hearts to deal with the problems of other clubs or indeed society in general. That is for the SFA/SPFL, police and courts to deal with.

The only thing we can do about other clubs is to reduce their allocation. I'm sure if Mrs Budge were to do this it would have the full backing of ALL our support

[Sarah O]

17 hours ago, busby1985 said:

.....should we be pressurising Hearts to start acting on bigotry?

Stopped reading here. 

 

The answer is YES.

[WageThief]

15 hours ago, busby1985 said:

I like that Rangers ask the fans not to stop the bigotry, just asking them not to sing the songs UEFA deem offensive. There in lies the problem. 

 

The way the statement skirts around the issue as well is amazing.  The whole "Uefa view" suggests there is another view which doesn't get mentioned.

 

The below bit is almost like a statement you'd put out telling women travelling to Saudi to take care covering up.

 

"Be loud and be heard and hopefully celebrate a victory, but please keep in mind that Uefa's view of racism is wide-ranging, which means singing or behaviour that could bring much more serious repercussions for the club must be avoided,"   

[doctor jambo]

17 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

That’s kind of happening right now anyway. 

Indeed- we had 1 fan maybe shouting something bigoted at Morelos - days later still in the news.

same game we had thousands definitely screaming something bigoted at our catholic players. Not a peep.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, WageThief said:

 

The way the statement skirts around the issue as well is amazing.  The whole "Uefa view" suggests there is another view which doesn't get mentioned.

 

The below bit is almost like a statement you'd put out telling women travelling to Saudi to take care covering up.

 

"Be loud and be heard and hopefully celebrate a victory, but please keep in mind that Uefa's view of racism is wide-ranging, which means singing or behaviour that could bring much more serious repercussions for the club must be avoided,"   

 

 

Basically, what we get away with domestically we won't do when abroad. 

 

Not e en shy about it. 

 

The SFA are cowards.