Transgender athletes.

[Angel eyes]

https://news.sky.com/story/trans-cyclist-rachel-mckinnon-defends-her-right-to-race-in-womens-competitions-11838131

Surely has an advantage if born a bloke?

[Vic Vespa]

Saw this on news tonight, research shows even with all their hormone suppressants they have an advantage for years, ridiculous that a man who has swallowed a few tablets can compete against females.

 

Not that it matters but Rachel McKinnon still looks like a dude, I'd be raging if I was a female athlete who had trained for years only to be beaten by a "man"

 

I

 

[Sharpie]

I will possibly upset some but I am not sure I understand transgenderism. In the thread subject if  I am getting the gist of this the person was a male who wants to be accepted as a woman at least in the realm of the relative sport. In Canada the National airline, Air Canada has on passengers boarding an aircraft disallowed the use by flight staff to refer to ladies and gentlemen. What I don't understand, and before anyone takes offence I really have no problem with anyone wanting to change their gender identity, but is the whole purpose not the renewal of identity from male or female to the other gender. It would seem by Air Canada that transgender is a gender identity. Neither male or female, does this thus create a situation that a trans gender can adopt original birth gender or  the chosen gender as the circumstances most suit. Could the person subject of the thread male by birth female by choice enter athletic events as a male if the contest suits or as a female if that works better.

I thought persons taking surgery was to adopt the gender they feel they actually are  to wit a boy born in a girls body, or the opposite.After surgery they are now a man or a woman.

[Ray Gin]

46 minutes ago, Angel eyes said:

https://news.sky.com/story/trans-cyclist-rachel-mckinnon-defends-her-right-to-race-in-womens-competitions-11838131

Surely has an advantage if born a bloke?

 

Definite advantage. Sports need a new category so that transgender athletes can compete against each other fairly.

[JFK-1]

It shouldn't be allowed. There are 'women' in combat sports who were born men but are now fighting women. Does anyone think we will see that in the opposite direction? Born a woman and now been through the 'procedure' to be a man fighting men?

I haven't seen that happen it all happens in the opposite direction.

There is an MMA fighter called Fallon Fox who was born a man and is fighting women one of whom she beat to a pulp and actually broke her skull. This is what the opponent said afterwards.
 

Quote

“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right.

  

Are they going to wait till some woman is killed before doing something about this? As I said. Let me see a transgender man born a woman fighting men. To me there's a reason that's not happening. 

[redjambo]

If it can be shown scientifically that a transgender athlete has probably gained an unfair advantage from the body developed under their previous gender designation then they should not be allowed to compete against non-transgender athletes.

[AlimOzturk]

Unreal that transgender women can compete but Caster Seymour, a women born with naturally higher testosterone is not unless she suppresses her natural body functions. 

 

Rank behavioral. 

[gjcc]

If it’s allowed it won’t be long before the Russian’s take advantage of it. Some of their athletes are suspicious already.  

[dobmisterdobster]

Why not have a third category for transgender athletes?

[Lovecraft]

It really is quite simple.  Trans people should not be competing with women.

 

 

[Sooperstar]

2 hours ago, bobsharp said:

I will possibly upset some but I am not sure I understand transgenderism. In the thread subject if  I am getting the gist of this the person was a male who wants to be accepted as a woman at least in the realm of the relative sport. In Canada the National airline, Air Canada has on passengers boarding an aircraft disallowed the use by flight staff to refer to ladies and gentlemen. What I don't understand, and before anyone takes offence I really have no problem with anyone wanting to change their gender identity, but is the whole purpose not the renewal of identity from male or female to the other gender. It would seem by Air Canada that transgender is a gender identity. Neither male or female, does this thus create a situation that a trans gender can adopt original birth gender or  the chosen gender as the circumstances most suit. Could the person subject of the thread male by birth female by choice enter athletic events as a male if the contest suits or as a female if that works better.

I thought persons taking surgery was to adopt the gender they feel they actually are  to wit a boy born in a girls body, or the opposite.After surgery they are now a man or a woman.

There are a growing number of people now who no longer identify with either of the traditional genders. Rather than be known as 'he' or 'her' they are then known as...'they'. It is probably those people that Air Canada are trying to placate.

[Ricardo Shillyshally]

Pretty sure I'd run slower with a pair of boobs so don't really see the problem.

[RS86]

A friend of mine is travelling to compete in the world powerlifting championships and the defending champion in her weight division was born a man but now competes as a woman. Not even sure they have had surgery yet and they competed as a man as recently as 2016. Totally unfair advantage, paeticularly in a sport where male hormones, bone structure and connective tissue development will give a significant advantage.

 

There has to be a separate division for it IMO, otherwise it is just nonsense

[His name is]

Getting to the point where sports should be non gender. Man, woman, transgender, if your good enough to compete at the top, you compete at the top

[Cruyff Turn]

I seen that programme with Navratilova a year ago and it’s quite clear that transgender, male to female athletes, have a far greater advantage than their genetically female competitors. They have higher levels of testosterone and it gives them something like a 12% advantage even if they are taking female hormones.

 

It’s a shame that these folk can’t compete however, as they feel and class themselves as female, but it would also be demeaning for them if they were forced to compete against men and unfair on woman. Even if they are taking hormonal drugs to make themselves more feminine they would have much lower testosterone levels than male athletes. So as things currently stand there is no place in sport for Trans athletes.

 

Whether you are strongly against or strongly support trans people, they are ultimately part of society and therefore should have the same rights to compete as everyone else but competition needs to be fair.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

I'm with @bobsharp

in that I don't really understand all the different terms (I'm mid 40s though). I can't believe there's no advantage, though. Cut my knob off and I'm still 1.88 meters tall with thighs like Linford Christie.

[Lovecraft]

27 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

I seen that programme with Navratilova a year ago and it’s quite clear that transgender, male to female athletes, have a far greater advantage than their genetically female competitors. They have higher levels of testosterone and it gives them something like a 12% advantage even if they are taking female hormones.

 

It’s a shame that these folk can’t compete however, as they feel and class themselves as female, but it would also be demeaning for them if they were forced to compete against men and unfair on woman. Even if they are taking hormonal drugs to make themselves more feminine they would have much lower testosterone levels than male athletes. So as things currently stand there is no place in sport for Trans athletes.

 

Whether you are strongly against or strongly support trans people, they are ultimately part of society and therefore should have the same rights to compete as everyone else but competition needs to be fair.

Pretty much spot on.

 

The only way it could ever be fair, is if a third grouping of competitors is created.

 

90% of the male to female trans athletes will know they have an advantage.

 

Here's Hannah Mouncey.   100% fair.

 

 

He (at the time) played for the Mens national team up until 2016.

 

It's a 6 foot 2 man.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Lovecraft

[Lovecraft]

12 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

I'm with @bobsharp

in that I don't really understand all the different terms (I'm mid 40s though). I can't believe there's no advantage, though. Cut my knob off and I'm still 1.88 meters tall with thighs like Linford Christie.

 Your heart is also about 1/3 bigger than a woman's.

 

You know, that organ that pumps blood to your muscles.

 

Not sure how that could ever be construed as giving you an advantage at something that primarily uses your muscles though.   

 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

6 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 Your heart is also about 1/3 bigger than a woman's.

 

You know, that organ that pumps blood to your muscles.

 

Not sure how that could ever be construed as giving you an advantage at something that primarily uses your muscles though.   

 

Like I say, **** knows how it works. Just to confirm, I've got no plans of changing.

[Lovecraft]

1 minute ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Like I say, **** knows how it works. Just to confirm, I've got no plans of changing.

 Hope your knob grows back soon.

 

😉

 

 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

1 minute ago, Lovecraft said:

 Hope your knob grows back soon.

 

😉

 

 

It better. If not, the old one's in the pickled onion jar.

[Sharpie]

1 hour ago, Sooperstar said:

There are a growing number of people now who no longer identify with either of the traditional genders. Rather than be known as 'he' or 'her' they are then known as...'they'. It is probably those people that Air Canada are trying to placate.

 Appreciate the information,I have never actually heard of that position unil now. I know that when they were discussing the Air Canada thing on the news they mentioned transgender persons, but I will admit I suspect that they were part of the reason and what you have helped me with was in a way inferred to.

[Vic Vespa]

2 hours ago, His name is said:

Getting to the point where sports should be non gender. Man, woman, transgender, if your good enough to compete at the top, you compete at the top

Not sure if serious ?

 

If so, perhaps top athletes should be able to compete at School sports days, ageism = transgenderism surely.

 

It's all bollocks, level playing field is where it is at, that's sport....

 

On the plus side it won't be long till the Hearts Womans team will be playing in place of our first team 😀

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Why not have a third category for transgender athletes?

But then those transitioning from male to female or indeed having made the transition would have an advantage over those moving from or having moved from female to male.  so you would need at least  two categories in the transgender group. Maybe more if you take account of the stage transition has reached in individuals.

And then what about those who are not undergoing physical transition but "identify" as being of the opposite gender or both or none.

 

 

 

[Lovecraft]

17 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

But then those transitioning from male to female or indeed having made the transition would have an advantage over those moving from or having moved from female to male.  so you would need at least  two categories in the transgender group. Maybe more if you take account of the stage transition has reached in individuals.

And then what about those who are not undergoing physical transition but "identify" as being of the opposite gender or both or none.

 

 

 

 I wanna play for Brazil in the mens world cup football final......

 

If there needs to be several groups, there needs to be several groups.  It's a totally new thing for everyone to deal with.  The Paralympics didn't just happen overnight.

 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

8 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 I wanna play for Brazil in the mens world cup football final......

 

If there needs to be several groups, there needs to be several groups.  It's a totally new thing for everyone to deal with.  The Paralympics didn't just happen overnight.

 

 

 

The Paralympics are also full.of inconsistencies and  unfairness between different levels of disability.

The only "fair" and non-disvriminatory outcome would be to abolish competitive sport altogether. 

 

[Lovecraft]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The Paralympics are also full.of inconsistencies and  unfairness between different levels of disability.

The only "fair" and non-disvriminatory outcome would be to abolish competitive sport altogether. 

 

 Yep.  People abuse the systems in place to get an unfair advantage due to bad regulation. 

 

Paralympics is probably a bad example as there is a rather large scale TBH.  Not so much with transgender though, possibly only 2 or 3.

 

I guess it ultimately comes down to what the athletes themselves are happy with.  Several athletes have pulled out of the race that involves the Rachel McKinnon, who as far as I am concerned, should not be racing against women.

 

 There have also been several females talking about the races that involves Caster Semena and the other 2 African runners that, to be polite, quite clearly have an advantage against the other female runners.

 

[ri Alban]

6 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

I'm with @bobsharp

in that I don't really understand all the different terms (I'm mid 40s though). I can't believe there's no advantage, though. Cut my knob off and I'm still 1.88 meters tall with thighs like Linford Christie.

'Time for your medicine, Mr DeVito'

[ri Alban]

I thought the whole point was, they!!! don't like to be categorised. So I don't think trans track and field will make they, happy.

[shaun.lawson]

Every respect for all transgender people. But not in top level women's sport. It's cheating, pure and simple. And it really is political correctness gone mad not to call it out for what it is. Outrageously unfair, potentially dangerous, and just plain wrong.

 

The issue isn't really with gender at all. It's with sex. Someone is either born with a male body or a female body. That we're now at the point where some people are trying to pretend otherwise is completely absurd.

Edited October 19, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

14 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

'Time for your medicine, Mr DeVito'

I know, I'm a midget.

[shaun.lawson]

Insane. 

[ri Alban]

27 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

I know, I'm a midget.

[Captain Sausage]

The BBC has an article on this last year. 90% of the article was emotional arguments by trans athletes (funnily enough, all of them male to female) as to why they should be allowed to compete against women. 
 

Right at the bottom of the article was a paragraph headed ‘what does the physical evidence suggest’ in which a specialist doctor explained that mtf trans people have what’s called a ‘legacy’ or ‘residual’ bias in their favour (I can’t remember the exact phrase). But their arms are still longer, legs still bigger, heart still bigger and stronger, etc. Taking hormones cannot level the playing field. As someone said above, it’s grossly unfair and frankly ridiculous that no one is really calling this out. 

[Sooperstar]

9 hours ago, bobsharp said:

 Appreciate the information,I have never actually heard of that position unil now. I know that when they were discussing the Air Canada thing on the news they mentioned transgender persons, but I will admit I suspect that they were part of the reason and what you have helped me with was in a way inferred to.

Sam Smith, a well known singer over here (he sang the theme tune for the James Bond film Spectre) just last month announced that he would like to be considered as non-binary. Story here which gives a bit more background to the whole thing. https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/14/non-binary-gender-mean-singer-sam-smith-announces-changing-pronouns-10741866/

 

It can be a bit of a minefield for employers etc and at times can get a bit silly with people either taking offence at stupid things or people doing stupid things by going out of their way not to cause offence. Changing times though and I'm sure it will all settle once everyone gets used to it.

 

From a practical perspective my mate who is an architect told me recently that they are now having to include gender neutral toilets when designing public buildings.

 

 

[frankblack]

One thing I have noticed recently is that there is a trend in computer software/paper forms to change the field in personal information from Gender to Sex.

 

It used to be less controversial to request input of a label Gender than Sex which offends the easily offended.  However, this is now reverting back to Sex as Sex is a biological term and Gender can be temporary.

 

Not sure what the ins and outs of this are but I am sure lawyers have cleared it.

[doctor jambo]

Not sure I care.

sport has been unfair for a long time.

I really struggle to think of any sport where  there is not a “birth advantage” where race/height/foot size and so on is not a factor.

Jamaican sprinters  being one example.

wstching the rugby and most squads loaded with south sea islanders.

African long distance runners.

With all the supplements/ diet/ meds/ doping even the legal stuff sport at the top is far removed from “natural”.

 

 

[indianajones]

Transgenders competing in non trans leagues should not be allowed. 

 

It's ridiculous. 

[dobmisterdobster]

9 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

But then those transitioning from male to female or indeed having made the transition would have an advantage over those moving from or having moved from female to male.  so you would need at least  two categories in the transgender group. Maybe more if you take account of the stage transition has reached in individuals.

And then what about those who are not undergoing physical transition but "identify" as being of the opposite gender or both or none.

 

 

 

It's all very confusing.

[Cade]

Trans identity and rights are a hot topic right now and in general life they should be free to have the same rights as anybody else and to identify as whoever they want.

 

Sport is different.

Trans athletes (especially male-to-female), do have a distinct biological and physiological advantage over CIS females.

Trans should compete in their own category.

[TheOak88]

13 hours ago, Lovecraft said:

It really is quite simple.  Trans people should not be competing with women.

 

 

 

 

To deny trans people to compete in female athletics is denying them their rights as a person.

 

They may have a “legacy” advantage from birth, they may not. Sport is full of genetic advantages. 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by TheOak88

[Sooperstar]

39 minutes ago, Cade said:

Trans identity and rights are a hot topic right now and in general life they should be free to have the same rights as anybody else and to identify as whoever they want.

 

Sport is different.

Trans athletes (especially male-to-female), do have a distinct biological and physiological advantage over CIS females.

Trans should compete in their own category.

This is where I am.

[Ethan Hunt]

17 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Why not have a third category for transgender athletes?

That’s the simple answer.

[JFK-1]

11 hours ago, Captain Sausage said:

The BBC has an article on this last year. 90% of the article was emotional arguments by trans athletes (funnily enough, all of them male to female) as to why they should be allowed to compete against women. 

 

And none of them explaining why we don't have a single instance of a female to male athlete competing at an elite level with men. For me that says it all.

[Ray Gin]

[Ron Burgundy]

On ‎18‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 22:26, Lovecraft said:

Pretty much spot on.

 

The only way it could ever be fair, is if a third grouping of competitors is created.

 

90% of the male to female trans athletes will know they have an advantage.

 

Here's Hannah Mouncey.   100% fair.

 

 

He (at the time) played for the Mens national team up until 2016.

 

It's a 6 foot 2 man.

 

 

So ruddy bloody brave.

[i8hibsh]

Inclusive and equality

 

[Lovecraft]

2 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

So ruddy bloody brave.

Yeah, she wasn't allowed to continue to play for the Women's handball team, so she now plays Australian Rules football for the women's team instead.

 

[Lovecraft]

36 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

😀

[i8hibsh]

On 18/10/2019 at 21:59, His name is said:

Getting to the point where sports should be non gender. Man, woman, transgender, if your good enough to compete at the top, you compete at the top

 

 

People do not like equality so would never work.