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Steve Clarke

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Cruyff Turn
On 11/10/2019 at 09:56, rick witter said:

Correct it’s not the manager it’s the players. They are simply not good enough and obviously cannot stop the basic mistakes. The last 3 games at least 6 of the goals would have been prevented if the players did the basic things like marking and winning your headers etc etc etc. 

I don’t think it’s a case of not being good enough. 

 

We’ve got Robertson, Tierney, McTominay, McGinn, Armstrong, McLean, Fleck, McGregor, Fraser, Forrest, Snodgrass, Christie, Griffiths, McBurnie

 

Those players are top level or 2nd tier top level players who are more than better than what N.Ireland or Iceland have at their disposal. Those two nations have pools of about 30 players to choose from, we have 100’s.

 

The problem is is that in some areas we have players within a whole unit or position which are not good enough, particularly RB, CB, CB.

 

So Clarke needs to be brave in certain positions.

 

GK, LB, CM, LW, RW and if Griffiths is fit, CF are positions where we can say the standard individually is good, or should be.

 

So perhaps he needs to look at Hickey, Hornby, Gilmour and bring them through the ranks. Add others if applicable. 

 

Maybe he has to look at guys who haven’t been tried, Liam Lindsay, the boy Henderson at Verona.

 

O’Donnell, Devlin, Mulgrew, Cooper, Bates, Shankland (at the moment) are not International level. Either because they aren’t good enough, past it or are too small in their position. 

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OTT
2 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

I don’t think it’s a case of not being good enough. 

 

We’ve got Robertson, Tierney, McTominay, McGinn, Armstrong, McLean, Fleck, McGregor, Fraser, Forrest, Snodgrass, Christie, Griffiths, McBurnie

 

Those players are top level or 2nd tier top level players who are more than better than what N.Ireland or Iceland have at their disposal. Those two nations have pools of about 30 players to choose from, we have 100’s.

 

The problem is is that in some areas we have players within a whole unit or position which are not good enough, particularly RB, CB, CB.

 

So Clarke needs to be brave in certain positions.

 

GK, LB, CM, LW, RW and if Griffiths is fit, CF are positions where we can say the standard individually is good, or should be.

 

So perhaps he needs to look at Hickey, Hornby, Gilmour and bring them through the ranks. Add others if applicable. 

 

Maybe he has to look at guys who haven’t been tried, Liam Lindsay, the boy Henderson at Verona.

 

O’Donnell, Devlin, Mulgrew, Cooper, Bates, Shankland (at the moment) are not International level. Either because they aren’t good enough, past it or are too small in their position. 

 

We have some really promising players in key positions, but lack the experienced players in those key positions IMO.

 

CB - We have nothing here but good quality promising youngsters - McKenna, Souttar, Halkett, Lindsay. I think 3 of those are injured but Lindsay should absolutely be getting capped. 

GK - We straight up have nothing here. Hopefully Angus Gunn has a change of heart and decides to represent Scotland (representing England with a name like Angus is ridiculous). Outside of that there is jackshit. 

St - Griffiths... no one else. Shocking. McBurnie has been shite. Everyone else is either not good enough or too old. I'd play Paterson up front until we can find someone who is an out and out striker. 

 

Ideally we'd be lining up something like

 

Marshall

Halkett McKenna Lindsay Robertson

McGinn McTominay

Fraser Christie Forrest

Paterson

Stephen O'Donnell is absolutely shite and shouldn't be playing for the national side. If we have no right backs, then play a CB there that can take the ball forward (Halkett or Souttar). Could even play a LB there and hope they can do it competently - I think there is an argument to trying something different and perhaps giving Hickey a shot at RB considering he is starting week in week out at the same level as O'Donnell (albeit at LB but he is two footed). 

 

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jack D and coke
On 11/10/2019 at 10:10, KineticBeat said:

When you walk into an international game with Devlin as a starting CB and Oliver Burke and Lawrence Shankland as your forward options, you're already starting with one hand tied behind your back. 

 

Clarke is going to need time. This team is short of confidence and quality in key areas and his teams operate a lot on shape and organisation which is more difficult to install quickly at national level because of the limited amount of time spent with the players. 

 

 

I feel a bit sympathy for Clarke atm he’s just trying things out possibly hoping he’ll stumble upon a system or some players. We’re incredibly weak in the heart of defence I really don’t know who is best in there. Some are suggesting Souttar but for me he’s been going backwards recently and got an absolute roasting in Israel so not sure he’s the answer. McKenna seemed quite solid when McLeish first played him so I’d maybe try find a partner for him tbh. Mulgrew has to be only a back up now and certainly not at CH he’s nowhere near aggressive enough. The rest of the team isn’t too bad apart from possibly RB and as per there’s a dearth up front. Why can’t we produce any strikers anymore? What exactly is the problem? Olly Burke is going backwards at an alarming rate he’s going to be playing for Shrewsbury or something soon after looking like he might be a find. What has went wrong for him? 
Another thing is we don’t have any niggly arseholes either it seems like a team of nice guys and that won’t do. There was no real will not to lose goals the other night it was completely half arsed defending imo. 
We have to let him do away though and hope in the next few games he can find something for these playoffs next year. 
All is not lost yet. 

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Smoked-Glass

He's lost to Belgium and Russia.  Not surprising at all. 

 

Give Clarke time. 

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Maroon Sailor
4 minutes ago, Smoked-Glass said:

He's lost to Belgium and Russia.  Not surprising at all. 

 

Give Clarke time. 

 

He's been humped by Belgium and Russia.

 

Even new manager syndrome doesn't work for Scotland.

 

He's either not as good as he has been made out to be or he really has a terrible squad of players at his disposal.

 

He'll get the time. Just hope it's time that solves this atrocious Scotland National team.

 

 

 

 

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OTT
2 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

He's been humped by Belgium and Russia.

 

Even new manager syndrome doesn't work for Scotland.

 

He's either not as good as he has been made out to be or he really has a terrible squad of players at his disposal.

 

He'll get the time. Just hope it's time that solves this atrocious Scotland National team.

 

 

 

 

 

I still have faith in Clarke. I think a big problem he's suffering from is not having the right players in key positions. Our keeper isn't good enough, our centreback options aren't good enough and our striking options aren't good enough. 

 

He can't magic up these players. 

 

Plus Belgium have a squad of extremely talented players, whilst Russia just have better players.

 

I think once McKenna finally gets his move then we'll have a CB playing at a decent level and Halkett & Souttar are still to come back from injury. Finally, think Lindsay should be capped. 

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Cruyff Turn
3 hours ago, OTT said:

 

We have some really promising players in key positions, but lack the experienced players in those key positions IMO.

 

CB - We have nothing here but good quality promising youngsters - McKenna, Souttar, Halkett, Lindsay. I think 3 of those are injured but Lindsay should absolutely be getting capped. 

GK - We straight up have nothing here. Hopefully Angus Gunn has a change of heart and decides to represent Scotland (representing England with a name like Angus is ridiculous). Outside of that there is jackshit. 

St - Griffiths... no one else. Shocking. McBurnie has been shite. Everyone else is either not good enough or too old. I'd play Paterson up front until we can find someone who is an out and out striker. 

 

Ideally we'd be lining up something like

 

Marshall

Halkett McKenna Lindsay Robertson

McGinn McTominay

Fraser Christie Forrest

Paterson

Stephen O'Donnell is absolutely shite and shouldn't be playing for the national side. If we have no right backs, then play a CB there that can take the ball forward (Halkett or Souttar). Could even play a LB there and hope they can do it competently - I think there is an argument to trying something different and perhaps giving Hickey a shot at RB considering he is starting week in week out at the same level as O'Donnell (albeit at LB but he is two footed). 

 

Angus Gunn’s an Englishman who doesn’t want to play for Scotland. I wouldn’t touch him with a 20 foot pole tbh. If he hasn’t decided by now, then I wouldn’t want someone completely uncommitted. We’ve had enough England C team players.

 

David Marshall’s a decent keeper but is ageing. Then it’s probably a choice of Mclaughlin, Bain and the boy from Portsmouth.

 

Halkett won’t get many caps, if any because he’s too small, but you never know. So we’re probably talking McKenna, Souttar, Hanley and Lindsay as our first choice Centerhalfs. 

 

McBurnie plays EPL so is more than capable but Griffiths is probably first choice. Paterson is good as a versatile option.

 

I’d start Hickey over O’Donnell despite his age tbh because he’s far better in almost every department.

 

All fit and available,

 

GK’s - Marshall, McLaughlin, MacGillivray, Bain

RB - Paterson, Hickey, O’Donnell

LB - Robertson, Tierney, Taylor

CB - McKenna, Lindsay, Souttar, Hanley, Cooper, Bates, Devlin, Halkett

CM - McTominay, McGinn, McGregor, McLean, Fleck, Jack, Henderson, Gilmour

AM - Armstrong, Christie

WG - Fraser, Forrest, Snodgrass, Phillips, Burke, Johnston 

FW - Griffiths, McBurnie, Russell, Naismith, Hornby, Shankland

 

That’s a superior group of players than what N.Ireland, Iceland, Finland, Hungary and most other nations outside the top 2 tiers have tbf. 

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shaun.lawson
On 11/10/2019 at 07:34, Martin_T said:

He should at very least be able to set out a team to be competitive. Our squad is no worse than most mid-tier nations, in fact arguably it's better as not many countries have players who are first choice for Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool.

 

Probably very harsh to say he's under pressure, but he's certainly not meeting expectations so far.

 

On 11/10/2019 at 07:47, Martin_T said:

 

Maybe not expect to win, but we should at least compete against them, instead we've been humped in every game.

 

The Northern Irish by contrast, with what I would argue is a far inferior squad, have run the Dutch and the Germans very close over the same period.

 

Further Clarke was able to turn around Killie very quickly with a poorer squad, why not Scotland?

 

Because you're comparing apples and oranges.

 

Club sides often turn around quickly because the new manager is able to work with the players, build them up and get their ideas across every day. International managers get a few days, then lose the players for months at a time. Which is why even at the highest level, international sides are never as good nowadays as the best clubs.

 

You mention Northern Ireland. Michael O'Neill's been their manager since the end of 2011. So he's had almost 8 years, Clarke's had a few months... and you're already judging Clarke against O'Neill?! Never mind that one of Scotland's biggest problems has been constant chopping and changing managers: always blaming a symptom, never dealing with the cause.

 

In O'Neill's first match, he lost 3-0 at home to Norway. Then he lost 6-0 in Holland. Then he drew 3-3 at home to Finland. Then he drew 1-1 at home to Luxembourg (!), 1-1 at home to Azerbaijan, lost 2-0 in Israel, lost 3-2 in Luxembourg (!!), 2-0 in Azerbaijan. It took two and a half years for even the merest green shoots of recovery to appear - and self-evidently, had he been Scotland boss, he'd have been out on his ear by then, excoriated by press and public alike. 

 

It takes time. NI gave him time and reaped the rewards. Scotland have to do the same with Clarke. Or else.

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hueyview

Is he still there.......

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Maroon Sailor
4 minutes ago, hueyview said:

Is he still there.......

 

Who ? Clarke or Mr Google ?

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VALDOS'

Good analogy on the Clarke situation, he's sent into a burning building and handed the same wee pissy fire extinguisher that McLeish and Strachan used, and folk wonder why it's the same result. 

The players are not good enough, simple as that. The list of guys who were going to be "the next big thing" for Scotland is endless and NONE of them have come off. 

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hueyview
1 hour ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Who ? Clarke or Mr Google ?

Both.   ....  :)

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Hearts1975
1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

Because you're comparing apples and oranges.

 

Club sides often turn around quickly because the new manager is able to work with the players, build them up and get their ideas across every day. International managers get a few days, then lose the players for months at a time. Which is why even at the highest level, international sides are never as good nowadays as the best clubs.

 

You mention Northern Ireland. Michael O'Neill's been their manager since the end of 2011. So he's had almost 8 years, Clarke's had a few months... and you're already judging Clarke against O'Neill?! Never mind that one of Scotland's biggest problems has been constant chopping and changing managers: always blaming a symptom, never dealing with the cause.

 

In O'Neill's first match, he lost 3-0 at home to Norway. Then he lost 6-0 in Holland. Then he drew 3-3 at home to Finland. Then he drew 1-1 at home to Luxembourg (!), 1-1 at home to Azerbaijan, lost 2-0 in Israel, lost 3-2 in Luxembourg (!!), 2-0 in Azerbaijan. It took two and a half years for even the merest green shoots of recovery to appear - and self-evidently, had he been Scotland boss, he'd have been out on his ear by then, excoriated by press and public alike. 

 

It takes time. NI gave him time and reaped the rewards. Scotland have to do the same with Clarke. Or else.

Can’t really argue with the points being made her tbh 👏👏👏

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shaun.lawson
1 hour ago, VALDOS' said:

Good analogy on the Clarke situation, he's sent into a burning building and handed the same wee pissy fire extinguisher that McLeish and Strachan used, and folk wonder why it's the same result. 

The players are not good enough, simple as that. The list of guys who were going to be "the next big thing" for Scotland is endless and NONE of them have come off. 

 

Well... I often think back to the late 90s. Four of the five British Isles sides had a 'next big thing'.

 

England: Michael Owen

Ireland: Robbie Keane

Wales: Craig Bellamy

Scotland: Mark Burchill

 

Spot the odd one out?! :laugh:

 

More broadly though, you're quite right. How can people say, rightly, that Scotland are at their lowest ebb ever and have been in a death spiral lasting more than 20 years... then automatically blame the manager when he can't change things in about 5 minutes flat? It's absurd.

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Martin_T
2 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

Because you're comparing apples and oranges.

 

Club sides often turn around quickly because the new manager is able to work with the players, build them up and get their ideas across every day. International managers get a few days, then lose the players for months at a time. Which is why even at the highest level, international sides are never as good nowadays as the best clubs.

 

You mention Northern Ireland. Michael O'Neill's been their manager since the end of 2011. So he's had almost 8 years, Clarke's had a few months... and you're already judging Clarke against O'Neill?! Never mind that one of Scotland's biggest problems has been constant chopping and changing managers: always blaming a symptom, never dealing with the cause.

 

In O'Neill's first match, he lost 3-0 at home to Norway. Then he lost 6-0 in Holland. Then he drew 3-3 at home to Finland. Then he drew 1-1 at home to Luxembourg (!), 1-1 at home to Azerbaijan, lost 2-0 in Israel, lost 3-2 in Luxembourg (!!), 2-0 in Azerbaijan. It took two and a half years for even the merest green shoots of recovery to appear - and self-evidently, had he been Scotland boss, he'd have been out on his ear by then, excoriated by press and public alike. 

 

It takes time. NI gave him time and reaped the rewards. Scotland have to do the same with Clarke. Or else.

 

I'm not suggesting that he should be removed. But the results have been poor so far and in relative terms he has a much better squad to work with than O'Neill has ever had to work with.

 

What was remarkable about Clarke at Kilmarnock was that he turned them around with pretty much the same players he inherited. Yes at club level you have far more time to work with and man manage the players, but tactics and organisation are elements that you would expect to see some evidence of impact pretty quickly. Scotland have looked totally lacking in all areas in recent games.

 

He'll get time and so he should. But it's been a poor start.

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Maroon Sailor
1 minute ago, Martin_T said:

 

I'm not suggesting that he should be removed. But the results have been poor so far and in relative terms he has a much better squad to work with than O'Neill has ever had to work with.

 

What was remarkable about Clarke at Kilmarnock was that he turned them around with pretty much the same players he inherited. Yes at club level you have far more time to work with and man manage the players, but tactics and organisation are elements that you would expect to see some evidence of impact pretty quickly. Scotland have looked totally lacking in all areas in recent games.

 

He'll get time and so he should. But it's been a poor start.

 

It's been a shocking start

 

Narrow defeats you can take but getting humped 3 and 4 at this level is not on.

 

Don't think Clarke himself would have thought that was going to happen.

 

Could be a blessing all this pish now. At least there is no chance of it papering over the cracks. 

 

Not enough paper anyway

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Smithee
1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

It's been a shocking start

 

Narrow defeats you can take but getting humped 3 and 4 at this level is not on.

 

Don't think Clarke himself would have thought that was going to happen.

 

Could be a blessing all this pish now. At least there is no chance of it papering over the cracks. 

 

Not enough paper anyway

 

We used to consistently have a really solid defence and not much else, so we rarely got pumped but seldom did well. 

 

Unfortunately we just don't have that reliable backline any more, and when your defence is sub standard in international football you can expect to take a fairly regular kicking. 

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Jamstomorrow
On 11/10/2019 at 10:05, rick witter said:

We have also had no tactical game plan to win football matches consistently in a poor league for 3 years. That can’t be just the players can it?????? 🤔

Hearts have no tactical game plan and yet CL and chums get consistently slated for their poor tactics!   I am confused.  🤔

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Dusk_Till_Dawn

Genuinely hope San Marino win today

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jack D and coke
14 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Genuinely hope San Marino win today

Why?

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
Just now, jack D and coke said:

Why?

 

This Scotland set-up deserves the embarrassment.

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rambothejambo
14 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Genuinely hope San Marino win today

Strange hope there fella, care to elaborate.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
2 minutes ago, rambothejambo said:

Strange hope there fella, care to elaborate.

 

See above, rambothejambothemambo

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jack D and coke
7 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

This Scotland set-up deserves the embarrassment.

The set up? What can we do to change things? Haven’t we tried to change quite a bit? Do you want Hearts to lose to embarrass the set up we have atm?

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
7 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

The set up? What can we do to change things? Haven’t we tried to change quite a bit? Do you want Hearts to lose to embarrass the set up we have atm?

 

No, although you don’t have to wish for that wit this Hearts team anyway. The Scotland structure is total shit, including Steve Clarke

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Seymour M Hersh
7 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

The set up? What can we do to change things? Haven’t we tried to change quite a bit? Do you want Hearts to lose to embarrass the set up we have atm?

 

I know where he's coming from. It's not the players or Clarke (although continually picking the likes of Mulgrew doesn't help his case)  but those running the SFA that need emptied. Unfortunately they have skins as thick as rhinos so endless failure will not affect them at all.

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jack D and coke
24 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

No, although you don’t have to wish for that wit this Hearts team anyway. The Scotland structure is total shit, including Steve Clarke

He was the unanimous choice. He’s not had much time either. It’s pitiful to be writing him off already it really is. 
If you don’t support the national team fine but he’s had a tough start. The Hearts structure is surely as bad if you’re being honest? The SFA at least doesn’t have one man overseeing absolutely everything and stubbornly still trying to implement despite tragic results?

23 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I know where he's coming from. It's not the players or Clarke (although continually picking the likes of Mulgrew doesn't help his case)  but those running the SFA that need emptied. Unfortunately they have skins as thick as rhinos so endless failure will not affect them at all.

I don’t think that’s the case. As much as I criticise the SFA and they’re needing cleared out I do think they’ve tried t change quite a bit. It’s not as easy as just blaming the governing body, Scotland just doesn’t produce great players anymore. We have some decent ones but in key positions very poor. Clearing out the SFA won’t alter that. 
I don’t get wanting Scotland beat tbh. As far as Hearts are concerned we can’t even get any players in a crap national team so what does that say about us? 
It’s about the bigger picture imo. 

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Seymour M Hersh
4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

He was the unanimous choice. He’s not had much time either. It’s pitiful to be writing him off already it really is. 
If you don’t support the national team fine but he’s had a tough start. The Hearts structure is surely as bad if you’re being honest? The SFA at least doesn’t have one man overseeing absolutely everything and stubbornly still trying to implement despite tragic results?

I don’t think that’s the case. As much as I criticise the SFA and they’re needing cleared out I do think they’ve tried t change quite a bit. It’s not as easy as just blaming the governing body, Scotland just doesn’t produce great players anymore. We have some decent ones but in key positions very poor. Clearing out the SFA won’t alter that. 
I don’t get wanting Scotland beat tbh. As far as Hearts are concerned we can’t even get any players in a crap national team so what does that say about us? 
It’s about the bigger picture imo. 

 

I'm not suggesting for a moment that the administrators of our game are the only issue within Scottish football but they, imo, are the major choke point that is preventing meaningful change. 

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