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Thomas Cook


Doctor FinnBarr

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Diadora Van Basten

They had an interesting feature on how Thomas Cook started on the One show. It started with a railway journey booked for tea total passengers. Then after that went well Thomas Cook kept on arranging excursions each one a bit bigger than the last.

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Dagger Is Back
2 hours ago, Victorian said:

Paying share dividends while debts mounted.    Top executives coined in millions.    Bumped key creditors while continuing to trade.    Flouted the law by failing to consult employees regarding redundancy.     Just some of the ever increasing tales of sharp practice in business.     

 

****ing people over is a routine currency now.

 

Absolutely spot on. Normal people look at all these crooks and sharks and must think why should I play by the rules.

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CavySlaveJambo

According to the Financial times in the last few years there were opportunities to restructure, by selling the airline off to Lufthansa, or by entering a CVA to close shops. 

 

Also Condor which is a Thomas Cook Subsidiary is still flying thanks to a loan from the German Govt. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said:

 

Absolutely spot on. Normal people look at all these crooks and sharks and must think why should I play by the rules.

 

Yep.   It's becoming more common and more normalised.    There's no proper regulation,   legislation and prosecution.    Responsibilities and inhibitions cast aside.     Big business 'run for cash' and big share dividend plundering.    Top executives free to practically set their own 'going rate' remuneration levels.    Ludicrous levels of rewards.

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Dagger Is Back
54 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Yep.   It's becoming more common and more normalised.    There's no proper regulation,   legislation and prosecution.    Responsibilities and inhibitions cast aside.     Big business 'run for cash' and big share dividend plundering.    Top executives free to practically set their own 'going rate' remuneration levels.    Ludicrous levels of rewards.

 

I really did wonder I was seeing things this way because I was getting old and crabbit.

 

I am of course but it’s reassuring to see others feeling the same

 

The ‘crocodile tears’ shed by CEOs like Goodwin and this latest incompetent, mean diddly squat.

 

These parasites won’t be at home tonight telling their families that life is about to change hugely and not for the better either.

 

They’ll be sleeping like babies without a care in the world 

 

Time to clean the cesspit

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Doctor FinnBarr
54 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said:

 

I really did wonder I was seeing things this way because I was getting old and crabbit.

 

I am of course but it’s reassuring to see others feeling the same

 

The ‘crocodile tears’ shed by CEOs like Goodwin and this latest incompetent, mean diddly squat.

 

These parasites won’t be at home tonight telling their families that life is about to change hugely and not for the better either.

 

They’ll be sleeping like babies without a care in the world 

 

Time to clean the cesspit

 Bloody right mate

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A couple of the papers have reported that TC's Directors have plundered £30m in bonuses since 2007, from what was a manifestly failing company.

 

Nowadays it seems that dressing up failure as success is a dark art, with recipients of unjustified bonuses usually limited to very privileged and self aggrandising charlatans with no real track record but the  right connections. It's a growing phenomenon and if left unchecked, threatens our whole economy. Drain the swamp!

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8 hours ago, Dagger Is Back said:

 

I really did wonder I was seeing things this way because I was getting old and crabbit.

 

I am of course but it’s reassuring to see others feeling the same

 

The ‘crocodile tears’ shed by CEOs like Goodwin and this latest incompetent, mean diddly squat.

 

These parasites won’t be at home tonight telling their families that life is about to change hugely and not for the better either.

 

They’ll be sleeping like babies without a care in the world 

 

Time to clean the cesspit

The jail is what these feckers need.

 

I was told yesterday, that people in Tunisia were being held as TC owed them a fortune. I hope it's BS. 

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Just realising that it is costing the government (and the taxpayer) way more to pay statutory redundancy and repatriation than it would have cost to arrange a rescue package.  

 

WTF is wrong with these people????

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11 minutes ago, Gashauskis9 said:

Just realising that it is costing the government (and the taxpayer) way more to pay statutory redundancy and repatriation than it would have cost to arrange a rescue package.  

 

WTF is wrong with these people????

 

I've read that it's not that simple, as a company they've had more than a billion in extra financing in the last couple of years, and realistically much more will be needed for them to survive because their whole business is flawed and hasn't moved with the times. 

 

Meanwhile their top guys are getting millions in payouts - is it up to the taxpayer to prop up a failing business to the benefit of their shareholders when it's no more than a plaster on a broken leg and much much more would be needed going forward?

It's shite for everyone that's caught up in it, but that's the reality of capitalism.

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4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I've read that it's not that simple, as a company they've had more than a billion in extra financing in the last couple of years, and realistically much more will be needed for them to survive because their whole business is flawed and hasn't moved with the times. 

 

Meanwhile their top guys are getting millions in payouts - is it up to the taxpayer to prop up a failing business to the benefit of their shareholders when it's no more than a plaster on a broken leg and much much more would be needed going forward?

It's shite for everyone that's caught up in it, but that's the reality of capitalism.

Fair enough chief.  The ‘people’ I was referring to in my post was those responsible (ie management etc) so i obviously agree that we shouldn’t be propping them up.

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7 minutes ago, Gashauskis9 said:

Fair enough chief.  The ‘people’ I was referring to in my post was those responsible (ie management etc) so i obviously agree that we shouldn’t be propping them up.

Yeah it's mental what you can get away with, these pricks will just start another company, maybe even retire. 

Some other company will come along to fill the void and in the end the only people who lose out are workers and customers. 

 

 

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The Real Maroonblood
20 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Yeah it's mental what you can get away with, these pricks will just start another company, maybe even retire. 

Some other company will come along to fill the void and in the end the only people who lose out are workers and customers. 

 

 

This.

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37 minutes ago, Gashauskis9 said:

Just realising that it is costing the government (and the taxpayer) way more to pay statutory redundancy and repatriation than it would have cost to arrange a rescue package.  

 

WTF is wrong with these people????

 

As Smithee has just said it's not as simple as simply ploughing in an extra £200m and hoping everything will be ok.

£200m would have kept them going for a few weeks/months and then what, every chance they would be back with the begging bowl asking the Government for another £200m and before you know it the taxpayer has been hit for hundreds of millions of pounds & my fear would have been that once the taxpayer got involved the taxpayer would have to keep ploughing money into Thomas Cook.

 

Then instead of people questioning why the Government didn't step in and save Thomas Cook, questions would then be asked why the Government was wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayers money by throwing it into the black hole of a failing company.

 

In situations like this the Government is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

I totally agree with the Government wanting an investigation into Thomas Cook and the payments/bonuses that were paid to the shareholders/directors, especially when the company owed £1.7bn yet some people were taking millions out of the company every year.

I also think directors should have more responsibility in getting people back home.

 

 

 

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It wasn't just a simple case of "Throw £200million at it and everything will be fine".

They'd already had £900million.

This extra £200mil was demanded by the banks as a guarantee.

Besides that, they were still forecast to make losses.

TC was doomed.

 

A classic tale of an old business that fails to adapt to the modern market.

Corporate arrogance and greed certainly played a part.

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Dagger Is Back
9 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

A couple of the papers have reported that TC's Directors have plundered £30m in bonuses since 2007, from what was a manifestly failing company.

 

Nowadays it seems that dressing up failure as success is a dark art, with recipients of unjustified bonuses usually limited to very privileged and self aggrandising charlatans with no real track record but the  right connections. It's a growing phenomenon and if left unchecked, threatens our whole economy. Drain the swamp!

It's disgusting, absolutely disgusting. 900 people in the UK and what 20000 across the world, having to come to terms this morning with the fact that they have no jobs. Having to make hard financial decisions about how they're going to get through this and these leeches sit comfortably in their ivory towers probably on their phones to their old school buddies/business contacts sorting out their next directorships, unless they've already got one of course. That's if they even have to work in the future to put food on their families table.

 

The problem with draining the swamp is that it's these very same people who have their sticky corrupt fingers on the plug. These people look around and see others in positions of power and influence getting away with it. They look at businesses from every sector across the world and politicians at every level, feathering their own nests and think I'll have a piece of that.  

 

You're bang on with what you say SJ.

 

 

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

The jail is what these feckers need.

 

I was told yesterday, that people in Tunisia were being held as TC owed them a fortune. I hope it's BS. 

 

Couldn't agree more but unfortunately the old boys connected network will look after them.

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1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

As Smithee has just said it's not as simple as simply ploughing in an extra £200m and hoping everything will be ok.

£200m would have kept them going for a few weeks/months and then what, every chance they would be back with the begging bowl asking the Government for another £200m and before you know it the taxpayer has been hit for hundreds of millions of pounds & my fear would have been that once the taxpayer got involved the taxpayer would have to keep ploughing money into Thomas Cook.

 

Then instead of people questioning why the Government didn't step in and save Thomas Cook, questions would then be asked why the Government was wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayers money by throwing it into the black hole of a failing company.

 

In situations like this the Government is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

I totally agree with the Government wanting an investigation into Thomas Cook and the payments/bonuses that were paid to the shareholders/directors, especially when the company owed £1.7bn yet some people were taking millions out of the company every year.

I also think directors should have more responsibility in getting people back home.

 

 

 

It’s like the banks all over again, only this time there will be no bail out.

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1 hour ago, Gashauskis9 said:

It’s like the banks all over again, only this time there will be no bail out.

The entire UK economy is based on an inflated housing bubble enabled by the banks and propped up by the taxpayer.

They were never going to risk that exploding.

 

TC is just holidays

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11 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

A couple of the papers have reported that TC's Directors have plundered £30m in bonuses since 2007, from what was a manifestly failing company.

 

Nowadays it seems that dressing up failure as success is a dark art, with recipients of unjustified bonuses usually limited to very privileged and self aggrandising charlatans with no real track record but the  right connections. It's a growing phenomenon and if left unchecked, threatens our whole economy. Drain the swamp!

 

Correct.   It is growing as you say.     We are continually told that the top executives who routinely receive these levels of grotesque rewards are merely being given the industry rate or the going rate.     Never accompanied by a clear and definitive set of reasons as to why the remuneration and bonuses have to be set so high.     No evidence to suggest that more realistic rewards would result in there being nobody around to manage big business.

 

Going,  industry rates of pay and bonuses exist because they have been artificially created.   Negligent and criminal practice exist because people are empowered to indulge in it because of the ever increasing examples of others doing it and getting away with it.

 

These people are no different to common criminals.     If there's something there to take... they'll take it.    Victimless crime,   innit?      Thieves in a business suit.

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5 hours ago, Cade said:

The entire UK economy is based on an inflated housing bubble enabled by the banks and propped up by the taxpayer.

They were never going to risk that exploding.

 

TC is just holidays

 

:notsure:

 

Livelihoods, mortgages, pensions, security & dreams for tens of thousands.

 

Just holidays? have a word.

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5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Condor bailed out by the German Government.

 

The German Government has given them a bridging loan to see them through this, I'm not so sure it's a bail-out per se.

 

Condor airlines was/is making a profit therefore it may have a future outwith the Thomas Cook group and in part this is another reason why the German government has given them the breathing space and time for Condor to try and put plans into place for life outwith Thomas Cook.

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-condor-to-keep-flying-thanks-to-government-loan/a-50572138

 

I heard yesterday that the German government took the decsion to keep Condor airlines flying so as to get all their German customers back home as and when they should be, instead of letting it cease trading meaning that they would have had to do the same as the UK and charter other aircraft.

Edited by Jambo-Jimbo
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Салатные палочки
12 hours ago, Sooperstar said:

 

Screenshot_20190924-202813_WhatsApp.jpg

 

What an idiot. I don't remember as much of an outcry when XL or Monarch went bust. There's actually temporary Facebook profile pictures of a broken heart/sun Thomas Cook logo. 

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P.S.  Re: Condor

 

Meant to add that for Condor airlines to survive I suppose it'll depend upon who actually owns the planes, doesn't matter how profitable they are, if they don't have any planes of their own.

 

I know that the German arm of Thomas Cook  hasn't been declared insolvent yet, however it has been placed into 'special measures' whatever that means and that they are not taking anymore bookings, the expectation is that they will suffer the same fate as the parent company, probably as soon as the last plane lands with the final batch of German tourists having been brought back.

Edited by Jambo-Jimbo
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Execs took £50m over the last 10 years.    CEO is said to be helping the workforce in the aftermath of the collapse.    Not being paid,  it is being said.

 

Then again,   when you've been paid £8m over the past 4 years,   there's probably a bit of wiggle room in the household finances.    

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1 hour ago, Salad Fingers said:

 

What an idiot. I don't remember as much of an outcry when XL or Monarch went bust. There's actually temporary Facebook profile pictures of a broken heart/sun Thomas Cook logo. 

 

Neither XL nor Monarch were on the same scale, nor did they have the historical cultural significance to the UK of Thomas Cook. 

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Салатные палочки
9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Neither XL nor Monarch were on the same scale, nor did they have the historical cultural significance to the UK of Thomas Cook. 

 

Maybe not XL, but Monarch were pretty big in their prime.  Similar passenger numbers (in terms of Thomas Cook Airlines of course). 

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Салатные палочки
1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

P.S.  Re: Condor

 

Meant to add that for Condor airlines to survive I suppose it'll depend upon who actually owns the planes, doesn't matter how profitable they are, if they don't have any planes of their own.

 

I know that the German arm of Thomas Cook  hasn't been declared insolvent yet, however it has been placed into 'special measures' whatever that means and that they are not taking anymore bookings, the expectation is that they will suffer the same fate as the parent company, probably as soon as the last plane lands with the final batch of German tourists having been brought back.

 

Did Condor used to be owned by Lufthansa?  I don't know how beneficial or profitable it would be for them to have a charter arm to the airline but it would be nice if they were considering buying them. 

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39 minutes ago, Salad Fingers said:

 

Did Condor used to be owned by Lufthansa?  I don't know how beneficial or profitable it would be for them to have a charter arm to the airline but it would be nice if they were considering buying them. 

 

I believe Lufthansa did own Condor before selling it to Thomas Cook around 20 years ago or so.

 

Lufthansa already have a low cost airline branch in the form of the Eurowings & Germanwings brands which were set up only about 5 years ago, so I would doubt that they'll want to take on more, besides Lufthansa is apparently discontinuing or have already stopped their Eurowings long-haul operations.

According to Wiki, out of the 42 aircraft Condor use 31 are either Boeing 757's or 767's which are usually used more for long haul flights, the other 11 are Airbus A320 or A321's.

 

There would be nothing to stop Lufthansa buying a stake in Condor, if it's deemed to have a viable future, and as we all know when a company folds, especially a large company, there are often bits of the company which are profitable and can get sold as a going concern.

By the middle of October, I'd guess things will be clearer as to the future of Condor airlines.

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CavySlaveJambo

I think one of the ways that it was believed TC could have survived - even if only slightly longer was selling off the airlines to Lufthansa. 

 

Also B767s can be used for short haul flights even if that is not how they are normally used. 

Edited by CavySlaveJambo
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18 minutes ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

I think one of the ways that it was believed TC could have survived - even if only slightly longer was selling off the airlines to Lufthansa. 

 

Also B767s can be used for short haul flights even if that is not how they are normally used. 

 

Indeed they can and sometimes do, that's not disputed, how economic they are is a different matter, ok if the flight is full time after time, but if it's not, that's when you start losing lots of money, with a half full plane.

 

Had a wee look at the age of Condor's fleet and they are starting to get on the older side now.

B757 are between 18 & 21 years old.

B767 are between 18 & 28 years old.

A320 are all 20 & 21 years old

It's only their A321's and their one A330 which are newish with an average age of 6 years old.

So moving forward most will be needing replaced within the next 10-15 years, that could well be something which has to be taking into account about Condor's future viability.

 

 

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Just heard on the TV that Thomas Cook had to sell about 3 million holidays every year just to service the interest due on their loans.

 

Also heard this morning that the Spanish Tourist Board believe that Spanish hoteliers are owed about £180m in unpaid hotel fees from Thomas Cook and that some hotels & local suppliers may now go out of business due to these unpaid fees.

The CAA reckon that Thomas Cook owe £338m in unpaid hotel fees, with one hotel in Mexico apparently due £2.5m alone.

 

It was reported this morning that tourists & some TC crew were being prevented from leaving Cuba until their hotel bill had been paid.

It has just been mentioned that they are on their way home as their plane has now left Cuba.

 

I think in the coming days we'll find that TC owes a lot of money to many many firms, here in the UK and abroad.

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BRAVEHEART1874

According to norwegian cruise lines they have not received any money from TC (even though the package was fully paid of and the last payment  a month ago) and want the full deposit paid again within 7 days. The cruise package is still going ahead as planned as the airline was delta an american company.

Not sure if this is just like the hotels wanting paid and the people were told they should not need to pay really.

Not much info on the ATOL site and probably not much on the 30th september either I bet for the claims.

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Less than 24 hours until my flight back from enfidha to Glasgow and its the only one not confirmed by the caa, that's due to leave Tunisia tomorrow. 

 

 

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The Real Maroonblood
3 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Such an obvious hatchet job by the board.

Also, who on earth are these people who wanted to use public funds to bail out this company?

Disgusting people with no morals. 

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14 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Such an obvious hatchet job by the board.

Also, who on earth are these people who wanted to use public funds to bail out this company?

Me! Sometimes jobs are more important than profits.

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16 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Me! Sometimes jobs are more important than profits.

What’s the rationale for a bail out though? The company was clearly ****ed, you are just kicking the can down the road giving it a bail out. 

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1 minute ago, TheOak88 said:

What’s the rationale for a bail out though? The company was clearly ****ed, you are just kicking the can down the road giving it a bail out. 

I'm sure it could be managed.

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11 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I'm sure it could be managed.

 

If that happened then every dinosaur badly run company would be queueing up for a bailout when it went tits up. The country would be bankrupted in no time. TC were a company with an operating model about 25 years out of date. If they'd morphed into a website and call centre operation with maybe a handful of branches in key cities at most, then they would have had a good chance of survival. The blame for their failure to do so lies squarely in the hands of their incompetent senior management who've had plenty of time to change it and who, imho, should be forced to repay their bonuses.

A bailout would simply have postponed the inevitable.

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20 minutes ago, Adam Murray said:

Seen some people taking selfies in front of TC's on Fredrick Street yesterday, strange behaviour.

Weird. The branch in Swindon's a forelorn sight, adding to the already large number of vacant shop units in the once busy town centre. It's a scene replayed everywhere unfortunately. The internet's been a game changer for retail in the last 20 years and those who fail to adapt pay the price. Or rather, their staff do. 

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32 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

Weird. The branch in Swindon's a forelorn sight, adding to the already large number of vacant shop units in the once busy town centre. It's a scene replayed everywhere unfortunately. The internet's been a game changer for retail in the last 20 years and those who fail to adapt pay the price. Or rather, their staff do. 

 

Galashiels is the same.

Right across the road from the TC shop is the former Co-op Travel shop, which is still empty near enough two years since it closed.

At one point Gala had 4 or maybe even 5 travel agencies, now there is only 1, a Tui travel agency, how long that'll be there, is anybody's guess.

And this will be a scene which will be repeated up and down the country, and that's a major part of TC problem, it was way way too slow to react to a changing market.

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highlandjambo3

I think people REALLY need to fine pick their insurance.  It’s something I’m sure we’ve all paid lip service to in the last, you know, small print, 50 odd pages, yeh yeh yeh it’ll never happen to me, where do I sign etc.........

 

I wont so much as fart in an airport before I check I am covered now and, I will ensure my cover is top premium I.e alternative holiday offered as a replacement, the same or better, at least all your dosh back (and some).

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1 hour ago, highlandjambo3 said:

I think people REALLY need to fine pick their insurance.  It’s something I’m sure we’ve all paid lip service to in the last, you know, small print, 50 odd pages, yeh yeh yeh it’ll never happen to me, where do I sign etc.........

 

I wont so much as fart in an airport before I check I am covered now and, I will ensure my cover is top premium I.e alternative holiday offered as a replacement, the same or better, at least all your dosh back (and some).

I suppose, it just down to blind faith. We trust these companies. You're right, tho. Time we took care of ourselves.

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The Real Maroonblood
3 hours ago, highlandjambo3 said:

I think people REALLY need to fine pick their insurance.  It’s something I’m sure we’ve all paid lip service to in the last, you know, small print, 50 odd pages, yeh yeh yeh it’ll never happen to me, where do I sign etc.........

 

I wont so much as fart in an airport before I check I am covered now and, I will ensure my cover is top premium I.e alternative holiday offered as a replacement, the same or better, at least all your dosh back (and some).

Especially if you pop your clogs when abroad.

It can be very costly bringing you back.

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