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How Would you Fix Scotland?


CostaJambo

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8 minutes ago, sadj said:

 

Can we just pick up Glasgow and chuck it across the water or over the border? 🤔

 

Swap it for somewhere decent down south. Then become independent.

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10 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Swap it for somewhere decent down south. Then become independent.

 

Do that and I would turn from 🇬🇧 to 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 overnight. See you jimmy hat, kilt and rugby top...the full works. 

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On 07/09/2019 at 06:39, grumpy rebus said:

 

That would be because it is one of the devolved responsibilities, like health etc. But don’t let the facts get in the way of you post 😂😂😂😂

Beat me to it. Westminster to blame for our poor international performances. Gets worse.  Aye SNP will right matters after next referendum. But only sides from their voting areas.

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1 hour ago, FruitJuice said:

Grab an end and we'll give it a bash.  

No bother ill get on the spinach 👍🏻

1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Of course, why should they share their money? Would we?

 

There is billions of £££ sloshing around football and it is up to UEFA and FIFA to distribute it more fairly. 

Don’t Celtic fans already claim the high ground on helping everyone because if they reach the champs league all teams get a couple of quid? (Might be wrong it was possibly twatter i saw that on)

1 hour ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Swap it for somewhere decent down south. Then become independent.

Any suggestions of where?

 

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2 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

I missed this post until someone else quoted it. 

 

If the old firm leave, they still remain in the country and even more focus will be on them as they play similar opponents across Europe. Forget the rest of us playing in some parochial wee league, fighting to be “Champions of the Rest” - we would be feeder clubs for the even wealthier old firm, just as we were moving away from those times due to good financial management by the likes of us, hibs, Aberdeen and Killie. 

 

Anyway, just my tuppence worth as I never get the argument that the old firm leaving would really benefit us. 

 

Interesting post. As this is a thread about the national team, though, I disagree. In any country whose domestic league isn't of broader commercial interest, it's that much easier for young players to be prioritised: because their paths to playing in the first team aren't blocked off by expensive foreign players. In turn, they can be sold on, with the profits reinvested in youth structures - as would happen if/when a Super League is set up.

 

Sweden and Denmark, to name but two, constantly outperform Scotland by leaps and bounds. Yet virtually all of their clubs are, in European terms, non-entities. Still of interest to the locals, no doubt - but not part of the Greed Is Good rat race which dominates so much of top level competition nowadays. And not dominated forevermore by two clubs who are simultaneously too big for their country, while offering nothing in European terms.

 

20 years ago now, I suggested that the two countries best set up for international football in the decades ahead were France and Holland. Both successful, famous footballing nations, with the resources to pump into youth systems and academies - but neither with leagues remotely strong enough to stop their best players leaving for England, Spain or Italy, so always with clear pathways into their leagues for youngsters. 

 

Those three countries will always have major issues prioritising the national team over the relentless demands of the club game. World Champions France, Holland (a decent bet for Euro 2020, I'd say) and everyone else in Europe, not so much.

Edited by shaun.lawson
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Maybe it's about time that our supporters accepted that it's nothing to do with the managers – Levein, Strachan, McLeish, Clarke or whoever – we're just crap at football. Pretty well all team games, actually.

 

Here's a pebble to toss into the pond... my theory is that countries with lots of immigrants do well at team games – Germany, France, even England. Growing up, their kids grow up wanting to be accepted in society by being national heroes. Think about who plays in these teams.

 

We really don't have many immigrants, honestly.

 

Comments welcome. Just a theory.

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At least Scotland didn't draw 1-1 at home to Lichtenstein. Seems a long time since the super heady days of Euro 2004 when Greece shocked planet fitba. 

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Shooter McGavin

I think theres an attitude problem in Scotland, young lads would rather get on the bevvy with their daft pals, rather than truly dedicate themselves and put in the work. 

 

I also get the impression that other countries in Europe seem to mature their young players a lot quicker and get them physically fitter, stronger and mentally more capable, whereas our players are usually not very well built and look like they’re one tackle away from intensive care. When our youth squads play in tournaments the difference in physique is immense. 

 

Or maybe we’re just s****.

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On 06/09/2019 at 23:42, Gashauskis9 said:

I genuinely wouldn’t miss it.

Agreed. I cant & dont even even watch it anymore. Complete waste of a couple of hours IMO.

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Not sure how we fix it, but it amazes me that we've probably got more players in the EPL than any other team in Europe out with England themselves, and we still can't knock a result together. 

 

It know it's a very naive way to look at things, but we have a Man Utd CM, and a Liverpool LB that would walk into most teams around Europe, then you have Fraser, McLean, Mcburnie, Richie etc

 

The value of the Scotland squad is probably at its highest than its ever been, yet we have a £20mil striker who cannae be arsed with us and cannae find the net and pretty much no other options upfront. Griffiths has a good knack of finding net I suppose. 

 

Our persistence in playing Mulgrew and others like astounds me.  

 

Really when you look at the squad, I would be as bold as to say that outside of Europe's major teams ie Germany, Spain, England, France yadda yadda etc etc we should be giving these teams good games. 

 

Netherlands just put Germany on their backside. Thats a result we will never see. 

 

Until we follow a similar model were doomed. I would suggest that we select players under 25 and just play them together for next 4-5 years. Like what Germany and Netherlands do every so often. Not like we'd notice a dip in form. 

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Allowayjambo1874
12 hours ago, GiantJambo said:

Maybe it's about time that our supporters accepted that it's nothing to do with the managers – Levein, Strachan, McLeish, Clarke or whoever – we're just crap at football. Pretty well all team games, actually.

 

Here's a pebble to toss into the pond... my theory is that countries with lots of immigrants do well at team games – Germany, France, even England. Growing up, their kids grow up wanting to be accepted in society by being national heroes. Think about who plays in these teams.

 

We really don't have many immigrants, honestly.

 

Comments welcome. Just a theory.

I thought the same but didn’t want to post it as someone is bound to bring the racist card into the equation. Another thing about immigrants is, in the main, they are in extreme poverty when they arrive in new countries so the desire to achieve success as an individual drives people on. Just read Lukaku’s comments on his childhood and his mother’s sacrifices. When listening to players from the most successful Scotland teams many of the players were trying to escape the pits so were totally focused. 

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Fxxx the SPFL

Unfortunately most of our squad are mediocre at best imo with the exception of Robertson we are just not good enough and never will be until we have some exceptional talent coming through in the future.

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Special Agent Dale Cooper

The problem with jettisoning older players and persevering with youth is I suspect our fans would be too impatient and want Clarke out on his ear after a couple of inevitable poor results.

 

All, including fans, clubs, media, SFA etc would require patience to allow the youngsters to gel but sadly I suspect we wouldn't be willing to wait the required 18 months +

Edited by Special Agent Dale Cooper
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Guest ToqueJambo
On 07/09/2019 at 10:30, Paul Shark said:

To be fair, you can read some utter pish on here, but you take it to another level . Well done. 

 

I know. Imagine think a country can run its own affairs! Lunacy!

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If we got back to playing games in front of packed stadiums at 3pm on a boozy Saturday, maybe it would inject a bit more passion into the supporters and the players.  Half empty stadiums on a Monday night kills it.

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5 minutes ago, Gashauskis9 said:

If we got back to playing games in front of packed stadiums at 3pm on a boozy Saturday, maybe it would inject a bit more passion into the supporters and the players.  Half empty stadiums on a Monday night kills it.

 

This is a fair point imo. I’d also get it back on terrestrial free to air TV. Do t give a shit if it costs us money from SKY. It’s the SFA’s job to find the sponsorship to negate that. How come Scottish Rugby can afford to run a comparatively better national team that is shown on free to air national TV? 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Bridge of Djoum

Younger, up to date coaches with fresh ideas who couldn’t give a **** about the OF.

 

A leadership, (SFA) who care about football and sport in general in this country.

 

Better funding.

 

Education about fitness and nutrition in schools.

 

Sadly none of these things will happen. 

 

 

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Bridge of Djoum
22 hours ago, sadj said:

No bother ill get on the spinach 👍🏻

Don’t Celtic fans already claim the high ground on helping everyone because if they reach the champs league all teams get a couple of quid? (Might be wrong it was possibly twatter i saw that on)

Any suggestions of where?

 

Suffolk is lovely.

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10 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

Suffolk is lovely.

 

See i used to prefer Norwich , well little plumstead but still Norwich now however......

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avhudtheteeshirt
20 hours ago, GiantJambo said:

Maybe it's about time that our supporters accepted that it's nothing to do with the managers – Levein, Strachan, McLeish, Clarke or whoever – we're just crap at football. Pretty well all team games, actually.

 

Here's a pebble to toss into the pond... my theory is that countries with lots of immigrants do well at team games – Germany, France, even England. Growing up, their kids grow up wanting to be accepted in society by being national heroes. Think about who plays in these teams.

 

We really don't have many immigrants, honestly.

 

Comments welcome. Just a theory.

Like your analogy, its the same as the American dream for coloured Americans made their sports great in order to get out of the ghettos!!!!

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On 06/09/2019 at 23:20, CostaJambo said:

So no Hearts game this week-end and no doubt some of our football obsessed posters will be at a loose end...

 

Hoping for at least a few sensible posts from people who actually understand football and some reasonable football debate before the thread descends into a Levein oot one.

 

Leaving aside the Scotland team's recent past and moving forward, how would you fix it? Does any Jambo really care?

 

For me:

 

1. Keep Clarke, I am not convinced anyone could do any better and I am sure he sees the Scotland gig as a positive one and is desperate to succeed..

2. This would be difficult as the OF have their own agenda but if possible get someone who actually has some respect in the Scottish game to work with the clubs to develop a basic common playing style for the youngsters. Alex Ferguson would be ideal as he doesn't come with any Old Firm baggage and all clubs would listen to him but I doubt he would want to get involved at this stage of his life. Forget about dinosaurs like Strachan etc.

3. Choose passion over club, i.e. start blooding players who want to play for Scotland rather than guys playing in England who are more bothered about their next big money move or OF players who will call off from friendlies for fear of getting injured.

4. Wipe out this Euro campaign (including the Nations League qualifier) and just start working towards the next World Cup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The simple answer to the thread title is Independence, obv 

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On 08/09/2019 at 17:46, Nookie Bear said:

 

I missed this post until someone else quoted it. 

 

If the old firm leave, they still remain in the country and even more focus will be on them as they play similar opponents across Europe. Forget the rest of us playing in some parochial wee league, fighting to be “Champions of the Rest” - we would be feeder clubs for the even wealthier old firm, just as we were moving away from those times due to good financial management by the likes of us, hibs, Aberdeen and Killie. 

 

Anyway, just my tuppence worth as I never get the argument that the old firm leaving would really benefit us. 

 

Don't worry about it, it's not going to happen. There's no chance of two Scottish clubs from one city getting into any European Super League. First such a league wouldn't need them, second they definitely wouldn't want the sectarian nonsense that comes with them.

If a Super league was established it would attract the  3 or 4 biggest clubs from England and may be 20 clubs from Europe. They wouldn't be interested in more than one league imo and it would be city based, the cities being London and Manchester in England.    

Edited by upgotheheads
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https://www.thesoccerstore.co.uk/blog/football-equipment/choosing-the-right-size-football/

 

I've had a bee in my bonnet about this (and other things) for a while. I have talked with coaches who insist that a size 4 ball should be used from the start. I took my 5 year old granddaughter to coaching last week, the size 4 ball they were using almost came up to her knees.

 

Any coaches out there with an opinion?

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We need to try something radical because the national team has been a disgrace for far too long.  How about minimum 5 Scottish players in your 11? 

 

The loan market in Scotland hampers bringing through young talent as well (I include hearts in this) bringing 'foreign' players in on loan hampers homegrown talents development. 

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30 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

We need to try something radical because the national team has been a disgrace for far too long.  How about minimum 5 Scottish players in your 11? 

 

The loan market in Scotland hampers bringing through young talent as well (I include hearts in this) bringing 'foreign' players in on loan hampers homegrown talents development. 

 

For a while I’ve suggested the league cup (or whatever it’s called) should be used for this. Perhaps every starting 11 should have 8 players who qualify for Scotland. 

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It's simple.

 

Look at Belgium, Iceland etc. Copy what they did.

 

Free / cheap basic coaching for anyone who is interested in learning how to be a coach.

 

Free / cheap advanced coaching for people who are willing to coach for free for a set amount of time.

 

Free / cheap indoor facilities for all towns, villages and more facilities in cities.

 

Involvement in football for all ages, sexes and abilities.  

 

Smaller 3v3, 4v4, 5v5 games for youth so they get more time on the ball.

 

Much is talked about SFA courses at Largs,  why not get them to train up coaches all over the country to get kids playing more.

 

Instead we have a Malky MacKay papering over cracks and removing funding from area "specialist" schools. 

 

 

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👍👍

 

 

16 minutes ago, Swanyl said:

It's simple.

 

Look at Belgium, Iceland etc. Copy what they did.

 

Free / cheap basic coaching for anyone who is interested in learning how to be a coach.

 

Free / cheap advanced coaching for people who are willing to coach for free for a set amount of time.

 

Free / cheap indoor facilities for all towns, villages and more facilities in cities.

 

Involvement in football for all ages, sexes and abilities.  

 

Smaller 3v3, 4v4, 5v5 games for youth so they get more time on the ball.

 

Much is talked about SFA courses at Largs,  why not get them to train up coaches all over the country to get kids playing more.

 

Instead we have a Malky MacKay papering over cracks and removing funding from area "specialist" schools. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by upgotheheads
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5 hours ago, upgotheheads said:

https://www.thesoccerstore.co.uk/blog/football-equipment/choosing-the-right-size-football/

 

I've had a bee in my bonnet about this (and other things) for a while. I have talked with coaches who insist that a size 4 ball should be used from the start. I took my 5 year old granddaughter to coaching last week, the size 4 ball they were using almost came up to her knees.

 

Any coaches out there with an opinion?

Kids use a size 3 until the play soccer 7s. 

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Bazzas right boot

Depressing these tyoe of threads. 

I'd forgot all about Malky Mackay being employed as some kind of football  ambassador on a £200k / year salary. 

 

What a ****ing state to get yourself into. 

 

honking. 

 

 

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On 09/09/2019 at 19:15, avhudtheteeshirt said:

Like your analogy, its the same as the American dream for coloured Americans made their sports great in order to get out of the ghettos!!!!

Part the problem  is folk can't afford to pay the fees most of these clubs charge

 

Gone are the days when players are picked through ability, it's more to do with having the cash to pay the dds. 

 

Need to try and find a way of getting kids in the schemes playing against each other from all ages 

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Were the Nats on this thread actually being serious, advocating independence as a fix for our dismal footballing fortunes over the past three decades? I'm intrigued as to the thought process. Any valid reasoning behind this or just typical overzealous, blind optimism?

 

Given the fact we've a Scottish minister for sport, who in Westminster are we to direct our ire towards? What should we write on the placards? I mean it wouldn't be like our first minister and her cronies to shirk existing devolved powers.

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avhudtheteeshirt
21 hours ago, jambocub said:

Part the problem  is folk can't afford to pay the fees most of these clubs charge

 

Gone are the days when players are picked through ability, it's more to do with having the cash to pay the dds. 

 

Need to try and find a way of getting kids in the schemes playing against each other from all ages 

I must have learned the hard way in back streets, playing against walls at shapes!

But, I have to admit, when I played at the side of the Usher Hall on the pavement during the dark nights, there was only about 5 cars parked in Grindlay Street, now you'll be lucky to find a parking space!!!!

Other times played crossy in the Meadows under the path lights, and in the Summer we would play at the Meadows till it got dark.

Back then there was no fees to pay, and if there was your parents told you to bolt!!!!!

You still had players picked by the likes of Salveson for trials, as they had scouts trawling round most parks looking for new talent!!

 

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On 07/09/2019 at 01:17, i8hibsh said:

The Scottish National Party are turning Scotland against each other. On and off the pitch.


The Scottish race have been against each other since the days of the Clans roaming the glens!  Think about where you were brought up... how you inevitably "hated" the folk from the nearby villages.  We had it out Midlothian way, the Nitteners and the Fieldies and the Gorebriggers etc! :)

Luckily we now have this thing called democracy. And a MAJORITY of Scots want the SNP to talk for them.  M-A-J-O-R-I-T-Y.  In Nicola (and Ann Budge) we trust!

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7 minutes ago, gggggareth said:


The Scottish race have been against each other since the days of the Clans roaming the glens!  Think about where you were brought up... how you inevitably "hated" the folk from the nearby villages.  We had it out Midlothian way, the Nitteners and the Fieldies and the Gorebriggers etc! :)

Luckily we now have this thing called democracy. And a MAJORITY of Scots want the SNP to talk for them.  M-A-J-O-R-I-T-Y.  In Nicola (and Ann Budge) we trust!

 

 

Where do you even begin with this.

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6 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Where do you even begin with this.

 

Not even half as ridiculous as your political posts tbf.

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2 hours ago, avhudtheteeshirt said:

I must have learned the hard way in back streets, playing against walls at shapes!

But, I have to admit, when I played at the side of the Usher Hall on the pavement during the dark nights, there was only about 5 cars parked in Grindlay Street, now you'll be lucky to find a parking space!!!!

Other times played crossy in the Meadows under the path lights, and in the Summer we would play at the Meadows till it got dark.

Back then there was no fees to pay, and if there was your parents told you to bolt!!!!!

You still had players picked by the likes of Salveson for trials, as they had scouts trawling round most parks looking for new talent!!

 

That's the thing I'm no sure about is there such a thing as trials or scouts  these days for juvenile  football? 

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Guest ToqueJambo
22 hours ago, JyTees said:

Were the Nats on this thread actually being serious, advocating independence as a fix for our dismal footballing fortunes over the past three decades? I'm intrigued as to the thought process. Any valid reasoning behind this or just typical overzealous, blind optimism?

 

Given the fact we've a Scottish minister for sport, who in Westminster are we to direct our ire towards? What should we write on the placards? I mean it wouldn't be like our first minister and her cronies to shirk existing devolved powers.

 

Where to start. How about the fact that a country that controls all of its economic levers is completely free to make decisions and come up with priorities. For example, we could fund a new TV station that priotises sport and puts money back into the game. W

 

We could take the billions we pay for nuclear missiles, London or England only infrastructure (HS2 anyone?) and divert it to schools and sports facilities. We could decide we want to be really good at [insert sport here] like countries like Australia did a while back with great success and divert funds and alter taxes to pay for it accordingly without relying on Westminster sending us pocketmoney to spend. Australia right now for example has a $200m initiative to get more kids playing sport in school.

 

We could have our own immigration policy to attract new Scots who become sports people like they do in France and other countries.

 

e could fund more health initiatives and infrastructure building.

 

We could have our own energy policy to power Scotland with renewables only and pump the savings into sport.

 

We could use oil resources money to fund sports initiatives instead of sending it all south.

 

The list goes on if you open your mind to the possibilities enjoyed by every other country.

Edited by ToqueJambo
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6 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Where to start. How about the fact that a country that controls all of its economic levers is completely free to make decisions and come up with priorities. For example, we could fund a new TV station that priotises sport and puts money back into the game. W

 

We could take the billions we pay for nuclear missiles, London or England only infrastructure (HS2 anyone?) and divert it to schools and sports facilities. We could decide we want to be really good at [insert sport here] like countries like Australia did a while back with great success and divert funds and alter taxes to pay for it accordingly without relying on Westminster sending us pocketmoney to spend. Australia right now for example has a $200m initiative to get more kids playing sport in school.

 

We could have our own immigration policy to attract new Scots who become sports people like they do in France and other countries.

 

e could fund more health initiatives and infrastructure building.

 

We could have our own energy policy to power Scotland with renewables only and pump the savings into sport.

 

We could use oil resources money to fund sports initiatives instead of sending it all south.

 

The list goes on if you open your mind to the possibilities enjoyed by every other country.


True. But even so, the folk in charge are old firm minded, unimaginative twats and independence - or better financial controls even - will make no difference to their pea brains.

Short termism and the sectarian divide also pollutes Glasgow where they just want to get one up on each other - but will knit together, thick as theives, when their duopoly is threatened. As pathetic as their hatred is, it is so strong they need each other to exist. 

Improving our performances would be a long term project, which would require everyone pulling in the same direction, with unified approach to coaching at all youth academies, with investment in setting up training centres across the country so every kid can afford to travel and train at one. 

Sadly, it will never happen. The SFA serve the old firm, the cheerleaders with word processors serve the old firm, the refs serve the old firm and the old firm serve themselves...

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alwaysthereinspirit

You know that old adage (might be new) dont fix it if its not broken.

Well thats our football associations take on our game in Scotland.

It'll never get fixed because it starts with removing them. And they'll never agree to that.

We are doomed for many more years of mediocrity. At best.

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We_are_the_Hearts
9 minutes ago, Sagan said:

5 year plan

Yip and no one gets to know it. Can't fail 👍😂

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On 07/09/2019 at 00:07, shaun.lawson said:

Scotland can't be fixed. It can never be fixed until the Old Firm, who dominate every single thing in Scottish football despite both clubs having contempt for Scotland, leave: either for England or a European Super League.

 

Never-ending Old Firm dominance on the pitch results in Old Firm-friendly referees, Old Firm-friendly administrators, Old Firm-friendly journalists, and Old Firm-friendly managers. All of whom are raised in the same backwards beyond system and perpetuate it, seemingly forevermore. A backwards beyond belief system which still treats Celtic and Rangers as incredibly important when self-evidently, they no longer are. A backwards beyond belief system which is exposed every single week by leagues across Europe which, unlike in the past, people can watch at the click of a button.

 

The national team can't be fixed until it's prioritised. It will never be prioritised as long as the Old Firm remain. Only Celtic and Rangers matter to almost everyone who's anyone in the Scottish game. Their impact is to be the jailers of Scottish football: holding it prisoner to their resources, their needs and their bigotry. If another club builds a good young side, the players are bought by the Old Firm and left on the bench, while their new club complains about "lack of competition". No other club can sustainably grow and become a challenger because of a prize money and revenue system which again, prioritises the Glasgow two at everyone else's expense. And as Celtic and Rangers go backwards on the pitch, so does everyone else. On and on and on it goes.

 

Gate receipt sharing? The Old Firm would never accept it. Summer football? Ditto. A larger league? Same again. Championship playoffs? Ibid. Two bald men fighting over a comb in a constant race to the bottom in which the victims are everyone else. But nothing will ever, ever be done about it. The national team's practically been allowed to die, it's been so bad for so long - yet its failure for more than a generation has resulted in the square root of sweet FA being done to change things.  

 

Scotland got away with much of this in the past because football wasn't global in the way it is now; because there were fewer national teams while the USSR and the former Yugoslavia were still intact; and as more or less the founders of the sport, it had a historic advantage over most other nations for a long, long time. Yet other nations modernised. Other nations brought in new coaching methods. Scotland just stayed the same ("get your foot in! Be hard to beat! Hoof it up the park! When in doubt, hoof it out!")... and the one good thing it kept doing, producing great managers, has stopped as well.

 

And of course, kids no longer playing football in the streets and de-industrialisation have more than played their part as well. It's playstation, the internet, mobile phones and junk food instead. As a result of all this, there's nothing left. The baw's burst. The game's a bogey.

 

This.

 

Setting aside social issues etc the biggest problem in Scottish football is that the OF are seen as bigger, better and more important than anything else. That is the case from the media, the SFA/SPFL, the OF fans and most importantly the vast majority of Scottish players.

 

Take Scott Brown as an example, personal feelings aside, we will never know how good a player he could have been or even is. He had the chance to join clubs in England but took the lazy and unambitious route and joined Celtic to play in a poor league and be the big fish in the small pond, rather than actually go out there and test himself against some of the best players in the world on a weekly basis. Our media lapped it up as a great move to a great club etc as they always do, no one raised the point that moving from Hibs to Celtic and carrying on playing in the same league wasn't going to improve him as a player. Thus he has stalled and he and we will never know how good a player he could have been. The same is going to happen to James Forrest, Callum McGregor, Ryan Christie, Mikey Johnston etc unless they wake up to the fact that, in this day and age, playing for Celtic for any great length of time is massively unambitious.

 

Compare that to Tierney, when Arsenal first made their move how many pundits were out saying it would be a great move for his career, to go and test yourself, and that for the benefit of his career he should move, none. It was all think of what he would be leaving behind, all the medals he will win, it's an honour to play for Celtic from the likes of Pat Bonnar and then the fans join in calling him a rat for moving on instead of staying for 10 in a row. Instead they should be asking what would he have been achieving by staying in Scotland and playing in a league that he has won (4 times? in a row) already. But no, Celtic are more important than the player's development. Also look at the end of last season when he needed an urgent operation that meant he couldn't play for Scotland as it needed done ASAP. That didn't stop him putting it off until he played in the cup final. Not a single question asked by the media, or to the player himself, as to why Celtic were more important than Scotland.

 

Also look at the players like Stuart Armstrong, you speak to any Celtic fan and it was like he committed treason leaving them. So much so that they all want him to fail down south so that they can all have a cheap dig at him, rather than actually acknowledge the fact he at least tried to better himself.

 

Add in the fact that Celtic and unfortunately Rangers have been, for at least the last 20 years, in the position to hoover up the best young players as relatively cheap gambles. Some work out, the likes of Ryan Christie but even he was sent out on loan for 2 years and still sits as having played his whole career in Scotland. But what about the likes of Lewis Morgan, Scott Allan etc, as soon as the OF are linked with these players every media outlet talks up the move as if its a great thing and can't even bring in the thought that it is highly probable to not work out. The latest in this list is Jake Hastie, signed by Rangers from Motherwell in the summer and loaned straight out to Rotherham. Will he ever get a proper run of games at Rangers or would it have been better for him to stay and play another season at Motherwell. Again the shouts from the media were about what a great move it was for him. See also David Turnbull, made out to be the panto villain and a money grabber when he turned down Celtic without a single member of the media acknowledging that it would have been better for his career to go to Norwich. You can make the same comparison with John McGinn, would he have improved as a player moving to Celtic instead of Villa and playing in the same league as he had done for the rest of his career to date?

 

As far as the players are concerned look at the list of guys that have their heads turned by the OF and go running some of them leaving their boyhood clubs on the belief that the OF are the be all and end all and without any ambition to try out another/better league. The likes of Andy Webster, Jamie Walker, Jason Holt, Ian Murray, Derek Riordan, Stephen Pearson and Ryan Jack. As soon as the OF are mentioned the media go in to fan boy mode and make them out to be at the top of the football ladder rather than acknowledge that young Scottish players should have more ambition than to play out their full careers in a poor league like Scotland. Look at the likes of De Ligt at Ajax, the club and the media know that they know they will only have him for a couple of years and then it is off to one of the big leagues and this it is better for the player and the national team. In Scotland it is played out in the media that the main ambition of any players career should be to play for one of the OF. Forget the bigger and better leagues. (By the way I'm not saying that all of or any of the listed players would have gone on to have a glittering career or comparing them in a ability capacity to De Ligt). (I also note that neither Andy Webster or Jamie Walker left us for Rangers but both had their heads turned and downed tools to try and force through a move).

 

Same for the fans, I find it very hard to find an OF fan that actually cares about the national team. This is because of years of their players pulling out for cheap reasons and putting club before country, again an example of this is Scott Brown who was welcomed back with open arms and given the captaincy on his return from "retirement".

 

Sorry for the long post but in short until at least the majority of the media wake up and realise that the OF are not the be all and end all and at best should be used as a stepping stone to bigger things in players careers and players should be being encouraged to go out and test themselves, then we will always struggle to get our best young players into the bigger and more challenging leagues in Europe and see them develop and mature in to anything resembling good footballers as they will inevitably get the OF pushed on them and then disappear like so many before them.

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Bridge of Djoum
On 09/09/2019 at 13:32, sadj said:

 

See i used to prefer Norwich , well little plumstead but still Norwich now however......

Ok then, Partridge. 

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3 hours ago, The Skip said:

 

This.

 

Setting aside social issues etc the biggest problem in Scottish football is that the OF are seen as bigger, better and more important than anything else. That is the case from the media, the SFA/SPFL, the OF fans and most importantly the vast majority of Scottish players.

 

Take Scott Brown as an example, personal feelings aside, we will never know how good a player he could have been or even is. He had the chance to join clubs in England but took the lazy and unambitious route and joined Celtic to play in a poor league and be the big fish in the small pond, rather than actually go out there and test himself against some of the best players in the world on a weekly basis. Our media lapped it up as a great move to a great club etc as they always do, no one raised the point that moving from Hibs to Celtic and carrying on playing in the same league wasn't going to improve him as a player. Thus he has stalled and he and we will never know how good a player he could have been. The same is going to happen to James Forrest, Callum McGregor, Ryan Christie, Mikey Johnston etc unless they wake up to the fact that, in this day and age, playing for Celtic for any great length of time is massively unambitious.

 

Compare that to Tierney, when Arsenal first made their move how many pundits were out saying it would be a great move for his career, to go and test yourself, and that for the benefit of his career he should move, none. It was all think of what he would be leaving behind, all the medals he will win, it's an honour to play for Celtic from the likes of Pat Bonnar and then the fans join in calling him a rat for moving on instead of staying for 10 in a row. Instead they should be asking what would he have been achieving by staying in Scotland and playing in a league that he has won (4 times? in a row) already. But no, Celtic are more important than the player's development. Also look at the end of last season when he needed an urgent operation that meant he couldn't play for Scotland as it needed done ASAP. That didn't stop him putting it off until he played in the cup final. Not a single question asked by the media, or to the player himself, as to why Celtic were more important than Scotland.

 

Also look at the players like Stuart Armstrong, you speak to any Celtic fan and it was like he committed treason leaving them. So much so that they all want him to fail down south so that they can all have a cheap dig at him, rather than actually acknowledge the fact he at least tried to better himself.

 

Add in the fact that Celtic and unfortunately Rangers have been, for at least the last 20 years, in the position to hoover up the best young players as relatively cheap gambles. Some work out, the likes of Ryan Christie but even he was sent out on loan for 2 years and still sits as having played his whole career in Scotland. But what about the likes of Lewis Morgan, Scott Allan etc, as soon as the OF are linked with these players every media outlet talks up the move as if its a great thing and can't even bring in the thought that it is highly probable to not work out. The latest in this list is Jake Hastie, signed by Rangers from Motherwell in the summer and loaned straight out to Rotherham. Will he ever get a proper run of games at Rangers or would it have been better for him to stay and play another season at Motherwell. Again the shouts from the media were about what a great move it was for him. See also David Turnbull, made out to be the panto villain and a money grabber when he turned down Celtic without a single member of the media acknowledging that it would have been better for his career to go to Norwich. You can make the same comparison with John McGinn, would he have improved as a player moving to Celtic instead of Villa and playing in the same league as he had done for the rest of his career to date?

 

As far as the players are concerned look at the list of guys that have their heads turned by the OF and go running some of them leaving their boyhood clubs on the belief that the OF are the be all and end all and without any ambition to try out another/better league. The likes of Andy Webster, Jamie Walker, Jason Holt, Ian Murray, Derek Riordan, Stephen Pearson and Ryan Jack. As soon as the OF are mentioned the media go in to fan boy mode and make them out to be at the top of the football ladder rather than acknowledge that young Scottish players should have more ambition than to play out their full careers in a poor league like Scotland. Look at the likes of De Ligt at Ajax, the club and the media know that they know they will only have him for a couple of years and then it is off to one of the big leagues and this it is better for the player and the national team. In Scotland it is played out in the media that the main ambition of any players career should be to play for one of the OF. Forget the bigger and better leagues. (By the way I'm not saying that all of or any of the listed players would have gone on to have a glittering career or comparing them in a ability capacity to De Ligt). (I also note that neither Andy Webster or Jamie Walker left us for Rangers but both had their heads turned and downed tools to try and force through a move).

 

Same for the fans, I find it very hard to find an OF fan that actually cares about the national team. This is because of years of their players pulling out for cheap reasons and putting club before country, again an example of this is Scott Brown who was welcomed back with open arms and given the captaincy on his return from "retirement".

 

Sorry for the long post but in short until at least the majority of the media wake up and realise that the OF are not the be all and end all and at best should be used as a stepping stone to bigger things in players careers and players should be being encouraged to go out and test themselves, then we will always struggle to get our best young players into the bigger and more challenging leagues in Europe and see them develop and mature in to anything resembling good footballers as they will inevitably get the OF pushed on them and then disappear like so many before them.

Good post mate.

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On 09/09/2019 at 19:15, avhudtheteeshirt said:

Like your analogy, its the same as the American dream for coloured Americans made their sports great in order to get out of the ghettos!!!!

It's exactly the same. Thanks for the comment.

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On 09/09/2019 at 11:48, Allowayjambo1874 said:

I thought the same but didn’t want to post it as someone is bound to bring the racist card into the equation. Another thing about immigrants is, in the main, they are in extreme poverty when they arrive in new countries so the desire to achieve success as an individual drives people on. Just read Lukaku’s comments on his childhood and his mother’s sacrifices. When listening to players from the most successful Scotland teams many of the players were trying to escape the pits so were totally focused. 

I think we've managed to avoid being racist. It's not really about race or ethnicity anyway, it's about being accepted in society and increased social status. Another example would be the cricket tradition that fast bowlers used to be found working in the coal mines; 50 years ago football gave an escape route from heavy industry; rugby forwards were Borders farm workers. The working class has declined in size enormously since then (sociological fact) while the m/cl has grown. The incentives just aren't there any more.

 

It's at least arguable that having crap international teams is a price worth paying for the general improvement in living standards.

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