Arguments for and against keeping Levein on as D.o.F.

[Kev1998]

When was the last time we sold one of our much acclaimed academy graduates for over say 1 million. Lesser clubs seem to get top dollar for their youngsters ,we give them away for nothing.5 years and still waiting.get shot of him altogether

[Adam_the_legend]

7 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

You've obviously never worked for the civil service

😂 touché 

[Boab]

7 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

Boy at my work, every time he f**ks up, he moves up the ladder, very nearly at the top now. Incredible.

 

Is his name Boris Johnson ?

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

2 minutes ago, Boab said:

 

Is his name Boris Johnson ?

 

No this guy  makes Boris look like the Prime Minister!

 

[Gorgieboy7]

7 minutes ago, Jamhammer said:

My only issue with Austin is he’s been sitting beside CL through this dreadful run. What’s he been doing?

Im not arguing against O Neill BTW. Think he’d be decent

 

Aye but won his 3 games when he was asked to step in. if he was to step in again and won games who knows. Jack Ross was in the building!

[sac]

Gone completely.

Lay down the criteria you want from the new manager ie style of play, minimum targets 3rd/4th place, sf’s of both cups, & anything else necessary. Time to dispense with the sentiment & appoint the best candidate.

 

[Nookie Bear]

Levein taking the Head Coach job was a stupid move on his part. 

 

The sheer arrogance that he could take on that role and then run back upstairs when it suited him was deluded. 

 

He must have known that nearly every managerial reign ends badly. Did he expect this to be overlooked when he returned to his DoF role?

 

Why did he not just leave Daly in charge for a couple more games and reasses his recruitment? Did Budge not find this odd, at the very least? Did she not wonder why our shortlist ended up being nobody except the man tasked with hiring? 

 

It completely undermined the concept of the DoF - which I still 100% believe in - because he ripped up the structure and blew any chance of a smooth succession between managers. 

 

If he had just sucked it up and replaced Cathro properly then he could have had a job for life. Now he could end up losing his job and who else would employ him now??

 

 

[mitch41]

38 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

People move jobs within the same organisation all the time, don't see why the same can't happen at a football club

But not when that job is manager and Controls everything that goes on in the football departments. Levein has far too much power and a new manager would be dealing with Levein's people and from experience it just wouldn't work.

[Absolute Scenes]

1 hour ago, Adam_the_legend said:

The squad that’s bottom of the league? That one?

 

The position speaks for itself - we are really underperforming - but you cannot deny that guys like Naismith, Halkett, Whelan, Washington, Meshino, Haring, Damour, have not made us a better squad - the squad we have now is better than the one we had last season in terms of calibre and quality of player. Even though we were flying at this point, this squad we have is good - they are just not showing it lol

[Stupid Sexy Flanders]

1 hour ago, farin said:

 

Think you’ve misunderstood my post. 

I didn’t say he was picking the team, as DoF he’ll be picking the players who come to the club & that’s the choice the manager will have to choose from to make up his own team. 👍🏻

 

Fair enough. 👍🏼

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Gambo said:

Whilst JKB seems to be in agreement that Levein needs to be removed from the managers job, there is a split as to wether he should keep his D.o.F. role (or any role) or completely leave the club.

 

I will list my arguments for him leaving completely, please feel free to add to that list or give reasons for him being kept on.

 

Him staying in the D.o.F. role (or similar) will cause division amongst the support, something the club and a new manager does not need at this time.

 

No doubt some will argue about the great job he has done at the Academy, what exactly is that, do Roger Arnott and the Academy coaches not get some credit for this, will it all fall to pieces with no Levein? Is he out on the training park coaching the laddies, making them better OR does he just sign off on who the coaches rate. I'm not saying he does nothing 're the Academy, but some seem to think the Academy is him. Remember the club is in a stable position to let the Academy prosper, the same could not be said for the end of the Romanov era but players still came through. I don't think the Academy is a good enough reason for him to be kept on imo.

 

His role as D.o.F. when it comes to the first team has not been great either, Cathro, Levein himself taking over, 6th place finishes, 3 year deals for folk who don't play, first team coaches etc.

 

What is it Levein brings to the table that he gets to keep the D.o.F. role or any role at the club as I'm not reading/hearing any except he should move upstais/He is the Academy?

 

Fire away.

 

 

I think he set up the infrastructure and goes to a lot of games. I’m not sure if he chooses the players initially, he doesn’t coach them and when they play under him they regress.

The next head coach does not need his interference, as he will have to do as that’s a DoFs job.

I can’t see a job for him moving forward, we need a new DoF with a new head coach. Preferably folk with no experience of Scottish football who don’t just believe that the OF are untouchable.

[Stupid Sexy Flanders]

1 hour ago, Adam_the_legend said:

The squad that’s bottom of the league? That one?

 

Yes, that one. CL isn't getting the best out of a very decent squad of players which is why he shouldn't be manager anymore, IMO. 

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, Absolute Scenes said:

 

The position speaks for itself - we are really underperforming - but you cannot deny that guys like Naismith, Halkett, Whelan, Washington, Meshino, Haring, Damour, have not made us a better squad - the squad we have now is better than the one we had last season in terms of calibre and quality of player. Even though we were flying at this point, this squad we have is good - they are just not showing it lol

Glad you think it’s funny.

[Absolute Scenes]

Just now, Pasquale for King said:

Glad you think it’s funny.

 

Well if you don't laugh you'll cry

[Texia]

Nice to see that the masses on here still have no idea what a DoF does.

 

Insinuations that they are the one with all the control rather than the head coach, Rangers also have a DoF does he have supreme power over Stevie G?

[Newton51]

I wasn’t sure what thread to put this in but the hearts pr department seems to be working over time with all of the stories in the press bout the poor form and the squad etc. Levein not taking the blame for this at all. I think he is being given time to turn this around

[Gordon Ramsay]

He shouldn't be our manager or DOF. 

 

He's crap at both. 

 

 

[Boab]

1 minute ago, Texia said:

Nice to see that the masses on here still have no idea what a DoF does.

 

Insinuations that they are the one with all the control rather than the head coach, Rangers also have a DoF does he have supreme power over Stevie G?

 No, I think some of us have a fairly good grasp of what the job entails. It’s when you’re doing both that the confusion arises 

[naeclue]

Souttar signing renewed contract

Naismith signing 

Building relations with Manchester clubs

Young players signing on for extra years.

Whelan signing

Guys with options are often choosing to stay.

 

My personal feeling is that Levein didn’t want to manage, and Budge insisted he clear up the mess that was Cathro. If the team was on a more even keel he’d be lining up his own replacement as manager and getting back to DOF.

 

What with the mess the youth development was in, 5 years is absolute minimum given clubs sign up players at 11.

 

I feel like the team is struggling, but the club is in a good place. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by naeclue

[Five to One]

There's no decision to make. If he goes it can't be back upstairs as it would deter potential managers or coaches from joining the Club. We need a clean break. 

[o1djambo]

1 hour ago, The Treasurer said:

You've obviously never worked for the civil service

Or the Cooncil.

 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

32 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Levein taking the Head Coach job was a stupid move on his part. 

 

The sheer arrogance that he could take on that role and then run back upstairs when it suited him was deluded. 

 

He must have known that nearly every managerial reign ends badly. Did he expect this to be overlooked when he returned to his DoF role?

 

Why did he not just leave Daly in charge for a couple more games and reasses his recruitment? Did Budge not find this odd, at the very least? Did she not wonder why our shortlist ended up being nobody except the man tasked with hiring? 

 

It completely undermined the concept of the DoF - which I still 100% believe in - because he ripped up the structure and blew any chance of a smooth succession between managers. 

 

If he had just sucked it up and replaced Cathro properly then he could have had a job for life. Now he could end up losing his job and who else would employ him now??

 

 

Agree. Giving it to him was also stupid. However if we go back to the time, he was under enormous pressure then for appointing Cathro and the collateral damage that storm left behind.

 

She can only have thought it logical he would sort out the mess he had created by the left field appointment.

 

What has largely been missed from everything at the moment, employment law. His contract could be a can of worms.

[Byyy The Light]

I’m torn on this one. I like his ambition and vision on paper, I want somebody at Hearts in charge of the football side of things who give it a good structure, borrow from leading clubs in Europe and do things others in a Scotland aren’t. The loans coach being an example.

 

What I don’t want if/when he gets sacked is any of the coaching staff still in place. I want a new manager to bring in his own team.

 

But where does it stop? Do all the academy coaches get emptied too as Levein also brought them in. Would seem overly costly ripping all that up every time the manager changed.

 

Like I said, torn on this one. 

 

 

[Jambothump]

3 hours ago, farin said:

We managed to win trophy’s without a DoF. This experiment has failed imo & should be ripped up. No experienced  manager worth his salt will allow levein as DoF to pick the players he can put into any team.

 

He needs complete autonomy to bring in his own squad. You can’t have a failed manager pulling the strings behind the scenes like this. It’s a recipe for disaster, complete break with a new manager being in complete control .. 

Sadly, could not agree more 😧

[Byyy The Light]

39 minutes ago, Texia said:

Nice to see that the masses on here still have no idea what a DoF does.

 

Insinuations that they are the one with all the control rather than the head coach, Rangers also have a DoF does he have supreme power over Stevie G?

 

Despite it being explained literally hundreds of times over and over on here. People must just be on the wind up. 

[sadj]

1 hour ago, Texia said:

Nice to see that the masses on here still have no idea what a DoF does.

 

Insinuations that they are the one with all the control rather than the head coach, Rangers also have a DoF does he have supreme power over Stevie G?

@The Treasurer and yourself are the only two who seem to have a grip on it. Been reading the thread and all that jumps out is that and if we had a Mark Allen etc who wasn’t a large personality a lot of people wouldn’t have an argument as they would forget the DoF exists. In saying that when he stayed out the limelight as DoF people were pissed he wasn’t voicing opinions in public. British managers certainly older ones don’t like a DoF as its not something they have been brought through with. That is changing and lots of teams have them. There is nothing wrong with that model but you need the right fit of people. A question that never gets answered is why should we change our structure back to an older structure just because people like Billy Davies thinks the DoF model doesn’t work.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

I don’t accept that it’s right for him to stay on as d o f.

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, Gordon Ramsay said:

He shouldn't be our manager or DOF. 

 

He's crap at both. 

 

 

What about director of cones?

[Cwapsy]

Must stay on as DOF as he is capable of selling the club well to players and attracting good players.

 

Must leave his manager job as he isn't very good at managing the players once he's attracted them. 

 

Did well as DOF with Neilson, didn't with Cathro. Cathro was a poor appointment. 

 

I'd give him one more go at appointing a new manager and see how it goes. 

[Plank]

13 minutes ago, sadj said:

@The Treasurer and yourself are the only two who seem to have a grip on it. Been reading the thread and all that jumps out is that and if we had a Mark Allen etc who wasn’t a large personality a lot of people wouldn’t have an argument as they would forget the DoF exists. In saying that when he stayed out the limelight as DoF people were pissed he wasn’t voicing opinions in public. British managers certainly older ones don’t like a DoF as its not something they have been brought through with. That is changing and lots of teams have them. There is nothing wrong with that model but you need the right fit of people. A question that never gets answered is why should we change our structure back to an older structure just because people like Billy Davies thinks the DoF model doesn’t work.

 

You've got some loyalty to Levein, i'll give you that :laugh:

 

[sadj]

Just now, Plank said:

 

You've got some loyalty to Levein, i'll give you that :laugh:

 

😴😴😴 If you say so. 

[Plank]

Just now, sadj said:

😴😴😴 If you say so. 

 

What did you vote on the poll?

[sadj]

2 minutes ago, Plank said:

 

What did you vote on the poll?

Back to DoF only , On the basis of I think behind the scenes a good job is being done but as Iv said for a year you can’t do both obs to the best of your ability imo

 

why?

Edited September 3, 2019 by sadj

[Cwapsy]

1 hour ago, Gordon Ramsay said:

He shouldn't be our manager or DOF. 

 

He's crap at both. 

 

 

 

He did manage to win a strong championship at a canter, then finish third first season back with a good manager (Neilson) under him. 

 

It has worked before but it's not working at the moment. 

 

There would be managers who'd work under him for sure. It's a very appealing job - in my biased opinion

[Plank]

2 minutes ago, sadj said:

Back to DoF only , On the basis of I think behind the scenes a good job is being done but as Iv said for a year you can’t do both obs to the best of your ability imo

 

why?

 

Just because you seem to have some personal connection to him.

 

Personally. I'd like to see him become the youth/academy manager.

 

I think most things AB wanted structurally are in place, therefore we dont need a DOF going forward.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

2 hours ago, Gordon Ramsay said:

He shouldn't be our manager or DOF. 

 

He's crap at both. 

 

 

This

[Byyy The Light]

3 minutes ago, Plank said:

 

Just because you seem to have some personal connection to him.

 

Personally. I'd like to see him become the youth/academy manager.

 

I think most things AB wanted structurally are in place, therefore we dont need a DOF going forward.

 

Speaking to agents, organising getting players picked up from the airport to come see the club. Meeting and interviewing coaches for the academy. Negotiating terms for extending contracts and signing new players.

 

Relaying the thoughts of the board re budgets etc to the head coach/manager. All things I doubt Ann wants to be doing on a daily basis and not something most managers want to be doing either.

 

Not saying it has to be Levein but the DoF/Sporting Director role is an important one.

[sadj]

Just now, Plank said:

 

Just because you seem to have some personal connection to him.

 

Personally. I'd like to see him become the youth/academy manager.

 

I think most things AB wanted structurally are in place, therefore we dont need a DOF going forward.

 

DoF exists at a lot of clubs as I said , I think its a decent model and works with the right people. Whether Craig is that right person now is a entirely different question. 

 

I think the structure is good behind the scenes and the academy is nearing a point where it has to show the correct return. Its not an overnight thing so the next 2-3 years are crucial to see if its successful or not. We invest more now than anyone other than rangers and celtic up here (i read that somewhere) that means we can attract players we couldn’t previously. 

 

If AM went upstairs with Levein on the board of directors to ask questions of him that might work. I think whatever happens with the HC position it needs one fully focussed person.

 

[sadj]

3 minutes ago, Natural Orders said:

This

Justify this opinion on the situation behind the scenes? 

[RudiHMFC]

4 hours ago, Stupid Sexy Flanders said:

I think we've got a really decent squad of players at the moment, and while CL isn't getting the best out of them, he deserves credit for having signed them in the first place. I'd have no problem with him returning to a DOF role. 

 

How does this work btw? How is our squad good but then we're actually shit. Are they just deliberately playing shite to get rid of Levein or Levein can't get all these good players to a level where we can beat Hamilton and Ross County at home.

[Plank]

7 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

Speaking to agents, organising getting players picked up from the airport to come see the club. Meeting and interviewing coaches for the academy. Negotiating terms for extending contracts and signing new players.

 

Relaying the thoughts of the board re budgets etc to the head coach/manager. All things I doubt Ann wants to be doing on a daily basis and not something most managers want to be doing either.

 

Not saying it has to be Levein but the DoF/Sporting Director role is an important one.

 

We managed for most of our history without a DOF. And most other clubs dont have one. But i take your point.

[sadj]

Just now, RudiHMFC said:

 

How does this work btw? How is our squad good but then we're actually shit. Are they just deliberately playing shite to get rid of Levein or Levein can't get all these good players to a level where we can beat Hamilton and Ross County at home.

 

The coaches and Levein aren’t getting the best out of them for whatever reason. Thats how it works. Daly and Fox wouldn’t inspire me to play to the best of my ability but it might not be that. Too many instructions not enough instructions could be any number of reasons for it. On paper there is no arguing our squad is better than anything we have had in a long time

[RudiHMFC]

1 minute ago, sadj said:

 

The coaches and Levein aren’t getting the best out of them for whatever reason. Thats how it works. Daly and Fox wouldn’t inspire me to play to the best of my ability but it might not be that. Too many instructions not enough instructions could be any number of reasons for it. On paper there is no arguing our squad is better than anything we have had in a long time

 

It's only better in the minds of some people because the over rate the ability of most of this squad. We aren't good, obviously a competent manager would get more out of them but it's not a great squad, crap keepers, past it players, strikers that don't score and guys who can't play 90 mins without getting injured.

[Vlad the impaler]

Imo we need a clean break and let a new manager,(not head coach) manage. I don’t think CL could sit back and not interfere or give his opinion and like others have said that will put off a lot of potential candidates. I’d also let John Murray go and start afresh with new scouting ideas that don’t just sign players on height statistics. Another with far too much power

[Byyy The Light]

5 minutes ago, Plank said:

 

We managed for most of our history without a DOF. And most other clubs dont have one. But i take your point.

 

True. But we’ve not been successful in the grand scheme of things.

 

Football has changed massively and personally I’d rather follow the lead of the likes of Man City, Ajax and Bayern Munich than any Hearts team of the last 50 years. 

 

 

[Plank]

3 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

True. But we’ve not been successful in the grand scheme of things.

 

Football has changed massively and personally I’d rather follow the lead of the likes of Man City, Ajax and Bayern Munich than any Hearts team of the last 50 years. 

 

 

 

But we have and its not working.

 

And if a good Hearts man like Levein, who has a wealth of experience, cant get it working...

 

Once Budge goes, i hope they do away with it but have someone like Levein overseeing the acadamy.

[RudiHMFC]

6 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

True. But we’ve not been successful in the grand scheme of things.

 

Football has changed massively and personally I’d rather follow the lead of the likes of Man City, Ajax and Bayern Munich than any Hearts team of the last 50 years. 

 

 

 

Right so go and get a director of football at their level then. It's all well and good having a director of football but it's no use if he's hopeless.

[Johnny Sandiego]

3 hours ago, tolcross lad said:

No need for DOF at a club our size.I dont know his salary.Circa £150000 maybe.Money better spent elsewhere.We dont owe Craig anything.Arnott is head of academy.We have Scouts in place.We have a Loans manager.We have Rankin in charge of youths.Kirk in charge of the reserves.Medical Physio team.A new manager will have his own ideas and will almost certainly not want Levein peering over his shoulder.With good communication and goodwill things should work fine.

Of course it will cost to pay him off but I see no point in him hanging around.I dont think he would want that anyway.

 

Who would all of these people report to and who would hire/fire these rolls if we got rid of the DOF role?

[jr ewing]

1 hour ago, Byyy The Light said:

I’m torn on this one. I like his ambition and vision on paper, I want somebody at Hearts in charge of the football side of things who give it a good structure, borrow from leading clubs in Europe and do things others in a Scotland aren’t. The loans coach being an example.

 

What I don’t want if/when he gets sacked is any of the coaching staff still in place. I want a new manager to bring in his own team.

 

But where does it stop? Do all the academy coaches get emptied too as Levein also brought them in. Would seem overly costly ripping all that up every time the manager changed.

 

Like I said, torn on this one. 

 

 

No,just the man in charge.

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, Sir Gio said:

Agree. Giving it to him was also stupid. However if we go back to the time, he was under enormous pressure then for appointing Cathro and the collateral damage that storm left behind.

 

She can only have thought it logical he would sort out the mess he had created by the left field appointment.

 

What has largely been missed from everything at the moment, employment law. His contract could be a can of worms.

 

He didn’t need to be under pressure though. He made a poor appointment in Cathro but every club does that and all he had to do was deal with the situation and advertise and appoint a new man. 

 

As a business leader, surely alarm bells should have rung in Ann’s mind when her trusted employee could not recruit a new Head Coach. And she surely should have foreseen that it would always lead to a situation where Levein had to give up the Head Coach role...and how that would affect his DoF role (and his position on the Board). 

 

I genuinely think his contract status is the real problem here. We are not just considering his role as Head Coach, so much of the club goes through him that it is a mess to untangle him, not to mention his Board role.

I suspect Ann and Craig are desperately trying to find a way to keep him as DoF and Director without losing face. And Levein will not walk away as this is his last job in football (imo)