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*****New Craig Levein Poll 31/08*****


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*****New Craig Levein Poll 31/08*****  

1,302 members have voted

  1. 1. Should craig Levein....

    • Remain in position as head coach and director of football
    • Leave/be removed from his role as head coach but remain at the club as Director of football
    • Leave/be removed from his role as director of football but remain at the club as head coach
    • Leave/be removed from the club completely


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45 minutes ago, To Be Frank said:

 

I doubt there’s very few people actually “hate” him. What’s not in doubt is that 95% of the fans no longer want him as manager. Can’t see how he can continue tbh

Source of; “95%”???

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Adam_the_legend
10 minutes ago, Stephen Muddie said:

Genuinely thought his 17-19 record would be worse than that tbh, was pretty surprised to see this spell comparing fairly decently against his last and, especially, Jim Jefferies' record. Sort of record that a few wins makes look good.

However, he should've been gone after May 25th. The fact he remained meant that we were certs for civil war unless he won most of this season's opening games. He hasn't, obviously, and here we are - the bi-partisan (and bi-polar?) world of Rambo's kickback and a real ugly situation developing in the stands. Seen it all before when he was last here - fans fighting against each other from their pro and anti-CL respective standpoints. That was despite decent results - was all about the style of football/tactics IIRC.

My biggest worries with replacing him right now are 1) he's just signed a load of players 2) he's probably blown most of the budget 3) Managers cost money and sackings cost money 4) what if potential new guy did same or worse results-wise? (I know, fanciful, but possible?) 5) If he goes now he'll need to go completely for me IMO, putting the whole shebang in a kind of limbo. If he were to go after turning things around (don't laugh at me please everyone) he'd be a shoe-in to go back 'upstairs'. 6) I don't trust the current board to appoint the sort of candidate that some seem to expect ie. likes of Moyes, and TBH I think we'd need to shell out for someone like that 7) Because there is consensus that this is "our best squad for years" and "anyone could do better with that squad", a new appointment would get about 30 seconds to provide that instant gratification, or he'd lose the support after 3 poor results, and we'd be back to where we are. 

In short, I wasn't pro-CL remaining in the pre-season, while most others were. Most of those others are now losing their shit, while I feel we have missed our opportunity to overhaul the setup as painlessly as poss. Reckon it'd be a real gamble ditching him now and expecting A. N. Other to come in, take all CL's players, sign none of his own and have us shooting up the table. The new manager boost doesn't always happen. 

Right now, I'm so past being Levein Out that I genuinely don't know WTF I want.

 

So what do we do? If the current form continues, and based on the last 10 months there’s no reason to think it won’t, we should just stick with him?

 

how bad does it have to get before he’s replaced? Bottom at Christmas perhaps? I just think we need to act decisively. 

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25 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

When talking about the UK then yes, sure, London is the capital. But how does joining Leicester, a provincial team if ever there was one make any sense? 

Suggest you ask Brenda!!!!

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Stephen Muddie
1 minute ago, Adam_the_legend said:

So what do we do? If the current form continues, and based on the last 10 months there’s no reason to think it won’t, we should just stick with him?

 

how bad does it have to get before he’s replaced? Bottom at Christmas perhaps? I just think we need to act decisively. 

What do we do? Well, if I were HMFC chairman, I'd've sacked him in the summer, so I really don't know mate. Trying to think here, put myself in the position NOW, having NOT done what I would've done in May... Hmmm. What's out next three? Well, Hobos and the Infamous Sheep. That right?

This is how I'd be thinking in such a position, having weakly not acted in the pre-season: Don't beat Motherwell? Bye. Beat Motherwell,  beat by Hibs? Bye. Beat Motherwell, don't get beat at Fester, knock the deluded Baaaaa'sters out the diddy? Stay. 4 pts and cup KO? Bye.

I think I've decided: A defeat in either of our next two league - bye. Getting knocked out LC unless we take 6/6 from well and Hubz? Bye.
 

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11 minutes ago, To Be Frank said:

 

The poll on this thread? 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

The one on Facebook is even higher.

Facebook is evil, never done it never will!

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13 minutes ago, To Be Frank said:

 

The poll on this thread? 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

The one on Facebook is even higher.

On here over 50% want him to stay with Hearts!! The majority of real hearts fans win the vote! Levein the legend must stay!!

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Bazzas right boot
9 minutes ago, Stephen Muddie said:

What do we do? Well, if I were HMFC chairman, I'd've sacked him in the summer, so I really don't know mate. Trying to think here, put myself in the position NOW, having NOT done what I would've done in May... Hmmm. What's out next three? Well, Hobos and the Infamous Sheep. That right?

This is how I'd be thinking in such a position, having weakly not acted in the pre-season: Don't beat Motherwell? Bye. Beat Motherwell,  beat by Hibs? Bye. Beat Motherwell, don't get beat at Fester, knock the deluded Baaaaa'sters out the diddy? Stay. 4 pts and cup KO? Bye.

I think I've decided: A defeat in either of our next two league - bye. Getting knocked out LC unless we take 6/6 from well and Hubz? Bye.
 

 

Feckin hell, you're on a roll. 

 

I agree 100% again. 

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Stephen Muddie
6 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Feckin hell, you're on a roll. 

 

I agree 100% again. 

Don't always have the energy/time/will/attention span to properly articulate my thoughts in a composed and more readable manner. Prefer just to jump in with one sentence posts if I'm honest. Oh well, at least two kickbackers agree on something. Even if 9000 others think we're *****

Edited by Stephen Muddie
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1 hour ago, Taffin said:

 

 

It's been covered quite comprehensively on the thread already but calling Hearts a provincial club and then jumping ship to Leicester doesn't particularly strike me as something most Hearts fans would do, especially not a 'PHM' (for clarity I hate that phrase).

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, got you. 👍

 

If it is just the incorrect use of the word “provincial”, then fair play. It’s absolutely being used incorrectly, when we are a capital city club.

 

Unfortunately, much like other misnomers and oxymorons that that have become ‘common tongue’ such as the misuse of “journeyman”, “mediocre”, or “luxury player”, the labelling of non-OF clubs as “provincial” has become an accepted literary error. :(

 

The context in which he used it however, was not to call Hearts provincial, whilst referring to Leicester as a capital club, as some have suggested. Here’s the full part of the article that is relevant, for context:

 

“For a year or so now I've been looking, and I realised to get to the English Premiership, where I wanted to be, it would be difficult to do that from a provincial club, which Hearts are.”

“I've been looking for a club with the same ambition as I have, and the recent history of Leicester would dictate that they are a Premiership club.”

 

What he was saying, was that he wouldn’t have been able to go from a non-OF club, straight to an English Premier League club. He was probably right about that too. By that point, our two top leagues had already begun to split drastically in terms of resources and prestige.

 

He then refers to Leicester as a club who he sees being an EPL club, who are currently in the division below. That’s the sort of job he saw as giving him the potential to get to the EPL. Ultimately he failed, but he wasn’t referring to Leicester as a capital club and Hearts as provincial.

 

If it’s his desire to go and manage in the EPL that is ruffling feathers with some, then should we apply that same way of thinking to players? We don’t do that currently. Apparently when it comes to players; there is “no sentiment or loyalty” anymore, and “who can blame him, when every single one of us would do the same”?

 

What Hearts manager before Levein would not have wanted to ply his trade and test himself at the highest level?

 

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Stephen Muddie

I'm gonna chuck in another angle on the "provincial" thing. Well, two actually, although one is a bit political I suppose. Glasgow is Scotland's football capital. Scotland's not a country so Edinburgh's not a capital.

On the former (feck the latter - it's a technicality. Hell, the UK isn't even a country until at least hallowe'en 😉 ) - I'm pretty sure that's not why the term "provincial" started to be used (probably just uneducated, OF arrogance - one of the dumb ***** heard the phrase describing a country where the capital clubs are biggest or something) Always shite to hear non-OF heads using it, hence why CL is infamous in that regard. Just chucking some ideas out there btw. Technically, every football club within the EU Nation that's not based in Brussels is a provincial club. Technical fact.

Edited by Stephen Muddie
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5 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Phil Parkinson

Gary Rowett

Chris Hughton

David Moyes

Chris Coleman

Nigel Pearson

Gary Monk

Michael Appleton

Neil McCann

Just a small sample of managers who as far as I'm aware are looking for work.

 

Cause they're all shite.

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11 hours ago, Martin_T said:

 

11 losses from 58 games is very good from JJ.

 

Yes it is. It's just that it occurred in a parallel universe. JJ lost 11 league games in 2010/11 alone, the last time we finished best of the rest. The BBC have just made that whole table up!

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Stephen Muddie
13 hours ago, Martin_T said:

 

11 losses from 58 games is very good from JJ.

Losses should read 23, draws 13, total games 61, not 58.

2 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Yes it is. It's just that it occurred in a parallel universe. JJ lost 11 league games in 2010/11 alone, the last time we finished best of the rest. The BBC have just made that whole table up!

Good spot. I did doubt the losses myself, but was focusing more on the ratio (which of course is inaccurate)

JJ 95-00 P242  W108   D57   L77  44.63% win
JJ 10-11 P61  W25  D13 L23 40.98% win

Going to double check Levein's records now.

 

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2 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Yes it is. It's just that it occurred in a parallel universe. JJ lost 11 league games in 2010/11 alone, the last time we finished best of the rest. The BBC have just made that whole table up!

 

Here's the actual table of Hearts managers since 1995: League games only. Any mistakes are entirely my own responsibility - but at least you don't have to pay a licence fee for it. 

 

Jim Jefferies (1) P 194 W 80 D 49 L 65 F 284 A 252 Pts 289 Win% 41 Pts/game 1.49

 

Craig Levein (1) P 145 W 62 D 36 L 47 F 202 A 177 Pts 222 Win% 43 Pts/game 1.53

 

John Robertson P 24 W 8 D 7 L 9 F 31 A 29 Pts 31 Win% 33 Pts/game 1.29

 

George Burley P 10 W 8 D 2 L O F 24 A 7 Pts 26 Win% 80 Pts/game 2.60

 

Graham Rix P 16 W 6 D 6 L 4 F 28 A 16 Pts 24 Win% 38 Pts/game 1.50

 

Valdas Ivanauskas P 31 W 17 D 6 L 8 F 33 A 20 Pts 57 Win% 55 Pts/game 1.84

 

Eduard Malofeev P 5 W 0 D 3 L 2 F 3 A 5 Pts 3 Win% 0 Pts/game 0.60

 

Axis of Gash P 30 W 10 D 6 L 14 F 41 A 45 Pts 36 Win% 33 Pts/game 1.20

 

Stephen Frail P 18 W 8 D 4 L 6 F 17 A 20 Pts 28 Win% 44 Pts/game 1.56

 

Csaba Laszlo P 60 W 23 D 18 L 19 F 60 A 61 Pts 87 Win% 38 Pts/game 1.45

 

Jim Jefferies (2) P 55 W 24 D 12 L 19 F 69 A 69 Pts 84 Win% 44 Pts/game 1.53

 

Paulo Sergio P 36 W 15 D 6 L 15 F 44 A 41 Pts 51 Win% 42 Pts/game 1.42

 

John McGlynn P 28 W 7 D 9 L 12 F 27 A 39 Pts 30 Win% 25 Pts/game 1.07

 

Gary Locke P 48 W 14 D 10 L 24 F 57 A 75 Pts 52 Win% 29 Pts/game 1.08

 

Robbie Neilson P 89 W 54 D 20 L 15 F 184 A 83 Pts 182 Win% 61 Pts/game 2.04

 

Robbie Neilson (Prem only) P 53 W 25 D 16 L 12 F 88 A 57 Pts 91 Win% 47 Pts/game 1.72

 

Ian Cathro P 22 W 5 D 4 L 13 F 24 A 33 Pts 19 Win% 23 Pts/game 0.86

 

Craig Levein (2) P 76 W 26 D 20 L 30 F 83 A 91 Pts 98 Win% 34 Pts/game 1.29

 

So if we must look purely domestically, the right man is staring us in the face... and I don't mean Burley. Phoodle Must Walk eh? Didn't that go well?

 

Two other quick things. Ivanauskas' rather impressive figures exclude the period he was off with Vlad flu, and count either side of it. And I've counted league games only because it's far and away the fairest way. No manager should be penalised for drawing the Old Firm early on in a Cup, or rewarded statistically for drawing a bunch of lower division sides all the way through to a final. Not mentioning any names there, or anything.

Edited by shaun.lawson
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Stephen Muddie

Yeah so I just checked the stats for Levein. BBC has got them spot on. Only mistake is with JJ 2nd spell as we saw. Haven't checked Robbie or the others' records. 

JJ 1st spell win % 44.63, 2nd spell 40.93.

CL 1st spell win % of 44 and 42 in current spell are correct.

Shaun: It looks like CL's reasonable current cup record is boosting his stats, whereas Robbie's are boosted by removing them. 

Edited by Stephen Muddie
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5 minutes ago, Stephen Muddie said:

Shaun: It looks like CL's reasonable current cup record is boosting his stats, whereas Robbie's are boosted by removing them. 

 

Indeed. Though of course, while in the Championship, Robbie drew Celtic at home and Celtic away. Which is what I mean about including Cup results being a nonsense (and nowadays, it also penalises managers who take their sides into Europe, given no-one ever gets very far).

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Stephen Muddie
2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Indeed. Though of course, while in the Championship, Robbie drew Celtic at home and Celtic away. Which is what I mean about including Cup results being a nonsense (and nowadays, it also penalises managers who take their sides into Europe, given no-one ever gets very far).

I prefer to include all games personally, maybe excluding Europe, yeah. Anyway, another thing that makes CL's appear better is the LC group format (boost from last season mostly, granted)

Edited by Stephen Muddie
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2 minutes ago, Stephen Muddie said:

I prefer to include all games personally, maybe excluding Europe, yeah. Anyway, another thing that makes CL's appear better is the LC group format (boost from last season mostly, granted)

 

And there's no perfect way of doing this. Some managers' records include bottom six games, others' include top six games; it's easier to pick up points in a 12-team league than a 10-team league because there's less pressure and more dross. Rix and Ivanauskas had an incredibly talented squad; McGlynn and especially Locke absolutely did not. Robbie had a year in a lower division. Etc etc etc.

Edited by shaun.lawson
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7 hours ago, Jambo-Fox said:

On here over 50% want him to stay with Hearts!! The majority of real hearts fans win the vote! Levein the legend must stay!!

 

95% want a new manager. That’s the long and short of it.

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As much as I appreciate the work that Levein has contributed to build up the academy I have voted for him to leave the club completely.  We need to avoid a scenario where he is interfering from the directors box.  It needs a clean slate for the new Manager whoever he is.  

Edited by TexasAndy
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9 hours ago, Jambo-Fox said:

On here over 50% want him to stay with Hearts!! The majority of real hearts fans win the vote! Levein the legend must stay!!

Nice play on words there.

What percentage in that poll want him to remain as HEAD COACH.

 

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10 hours ago, Jambo-Fox said:

Source of; “95%”???

 

10 hours ago, To Be Frank said:

 

The poll on this thread? 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

The one on Facebook is even higher.

 

2 hours ago, To Be Frank said:

 

95% want a new manager. That’s the long and short of it.

 

I wasn't aware that every Hearts fan is not only registered on Kickback and Facebook, but also voted in these polls. 

 

That is impressive. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile, back in the real world, 95% of Hearts fans do not want rid of Craig Levein. 

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3 hours ago, To Be Frank said:

 

95% want a new manager. That’s the long and short of it.

... not sure a manger is necessary when there is a Director of Football and a First Team Coach .... feels a bit too many positions ......

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55 minutes ago, Hearts_fan said:

 

 

 

I wasn't aware that every Hearts fan is not only registered on Kickback and Facebook, but also voted in these polls. 

 

That is impressive. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile, back in the real world, 95% of Hearts fans do not want rid of Craig Levein. 

 

95% of over a thousand fans on here want a new manager. It’s showing around 98% on various polls across Facebook.

 

Can you provide a link to anything which suggests the 95% figure isn’t  a fair reflection of the wider support?

 

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1 hour ago, Hearts_fan said:

 

 

 

I wasn't aware that every Hearts fan is not only registered on Kickback and Facebook, but also voted in these polls. 

 

That is impressive. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile, back in the real world, 95% of Hearts fans do not want rid of Craig Levein. 

Correct. I suspect it is more realistic that 99.99% of Hearts fans want Levein replaced as manager. I can’t imagine any genuine fan wants this car crash to continue.

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28 minutes ago, amadjambo said:

Correct. I suspect it is more realistic that 99.99% of Hearts fans want Levein replaced as manager. I can’t imagine any genuine fan wants this car crash to continue.

 

Short of contacting every single supporter on the club’s database, I’d say a sample size of a thousand is a pretty big indication of general feeling. 

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4 minutes ago, Hampden Demolition said:

Quite frankly I’m astounded that 60 people feel no change is needed.

 Makes you wonder what kind of medication they are taking.

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Hampden Demolition
Just now, ford donald said:

 Makes you wonder what kind of medication they are taking.

 

There was a guy sitting behind me defending Levein to the hilt on Saturday when it seemed the rest of the ground were singing for him to leave. He may have multiple accounts.

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27 minutes ago, Hampden Demolition said:

 

There was a guy sitting behind me defending Levein to the hilt on Saturday when it seemed the rest of the ground were singing for him to leave. He may have multiple accounts.

There will be a sizeable number of us that absolutely adore Levein. Any fan that watched this Rolls Royce of a player play for us and then have his career destroyed by injured can’t fail to have massive affection for Craig. But for most it will be a case of enough is enough. I personally would rather the fans didn’t have the chance to turn on Craig en masse, but for this to happen we either need a massive sustained turn in fortunes on the park, or for Budge to be decisive and make a change.

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4 minutes ago, amadjambo said:

There will be a sizeable number of us that absolutely adore Levein. Any fan that watched this Rolls Royce of a player play for us and then have his career destroyed by injured can’t fail to have massive affection for Craig. But for most it will be a case of enough is enough. I personally would rather the fans didn’t have the chance to turn on Craig en masse, but for this to happen we either need a massive sustained turn in fortunes on the park, or for Budge to be decisive and make a change.

Or for Craig to retire gracefully, say "I've taken this club as far as I can" and hand over the reins to a new manager.

That way he retains his legend status and nobody gets hurt..

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I voted for him to move back upstairs but tbh I will give him the next two games. 4 points minimum, see how the league looks and take it from there. Less than 3 points then move him back to DOF.

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3 minutes ago, Dallas Green said:

I voted for him to move back upstairs but tbh I will give him the next two games. 4 points minimum, see how the league looks and take it from there. Less than 3 points then move him back to DOF.

 

This is probably where I am at now. Not completely given up hope that he won’t turn it around, but massively disappointed in our points haul so far this season. That needs to turn around one way or another. He must be furious himself, because two home draws against RC and HA were the ideal potential launching pads to get the season started. I also want him to retain his place as DoF or similar either way.

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Now if Craig Levein was hurting as much as the rest of us he'd walk away. 

Is he hanging about for a pay off because i think he should be loyal to

Ann Budge and save her all this grief.

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Hampden Demolition
8 minutes ago, Dallas Green said:

I voted for him to move back upstairs but tbh I will give him the next two games. 4 points minimum, see how the league looks and take it from there. Less than 3 points then move him back to DOF.

 

So what happens if he gets the 4 points but is beaten by Aberdeen in the cup then by St Mirren the following week? We are back to square one. We have two weeks until our next game so the time to act is now. Get a new Manager in before the Derby and it might give us half a chance of progression in the cup too.

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This rhetoric of two more games or until the cup game has been going on too long for me. I said after Parkhead next 4 games home wins good derby performance and the cup game and I’d be happy to leave it for a while see if we could build momentum. He failed at game 1! It’s just gone on too long I can’t see where he’s suddenly going to turn this round. So where does it end when we’re bottom half out the cups and that’s the season written off again!

 

I really want him to resign no public hanging no humiliation from the stands. Go back upstairs quietly with some dignity and continue the good work behind the scenes, but let the new man have his way his coaches etc. I actually think a new manager would keep Austin MacPhee not so sure about the rest of them.

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40 minutes ago, Hampden Demolition said:

 

So what happens if he gets the 4 points but is beaten by Aberdeen in the cup then by St Mirren the following week? We are back to square one. We have two weeks until our next game so the time to act is now. Get a new Manager in before the Derby and it might give us half a chance of progression in the cup too.

 

Then he moves back to DOF and we look for a new manager.

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5 minutes ago, ScoPo said:

45% worryingly think Levein's scattergun, wasteful transfer policy is somehow worth retaining.  Incredible.   

It’s purely sentimental, if Levein had no previous ties to hearts people would want him gone completely.

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44 minutes ago, Hampden Demolition said:

 

So what happens if he gets the 4 points but is beaten by Aberdeen in the cup then by St Mirren the following week? We are back to square one. We have two weeks until our next game so the time to act is now. Get a new Manager in before the Derby and it might give us half a chance of progression in the cup too.

This up coming derby could very well pan out that the team who wins are in fact the losers.

if that makes sense.

obviously if Heckingbottom and Levein are both still in charge by that game.

Edited by 1874robbo
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