The Sevco saga continues ...

[Jim Panzee]

41 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

Share options with fans are done. 

Club1872 is a mess.

 

Directors need need to make cuts rapidly or gamble. The gamble will not give them a major advantage they hoped for but mitigate much of their debts/losses. 

 

Tremendous. 

Hopefully they get into trouble in all new ways.

begging bowl it'll be. next set of masonic lodge meetings, top of the agenda - donate more money to the rangers. 

 

most sensible folk would eventually give up donating into a black hole - but still plenty of lunatics happy to hand cash over to a lost cause than give to their families or worthy charities

 

[Glamorgan Jambo]

50 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Dave King's (Laird Investments) £5m loan @ 8% interest, was due for repayment last month.

 

I wonder if he has extended it.

 

Their dependence on directors and other shareholder funding is evident from the the related party transactions.

 

During the year, the Group received £20.96m (net of repayments) from Directors, existing shareholders and other parties. This entire amount was made available for working capital purposes

 

Laird Investments (PTY) Limited (“Laird”) Shareholder

A facility provided by Laird to the Company of £5m is being charged interest at 8% on an accruing basis. This is due for repayment in October 2021.

 

Director loans

John Bennett, Barry Scott, Douglas Park, Alastair Johnston and Julian Juul Wolhardt A facility provided by Mr J Bennett, Mr A Johnston and Mr J Wolhardt to the Company of £5.25m is being charged interest at 6% on an accruing basis. Repayments of this, over a 7 year period, commenced in August 2021.

Loan facilities of £1.5m provided by Mr J Bennett prior to the commencement of the period, as well as a further £0.2m provided during the year, were converted to equity in the year. A further £1.5m provided prior to the commencement of the period, as well as a further £4.0m provided during the year, were repaid.

Loan facilities of £0.7m provided by Mr D Park prior to the commencement of the period, as well as a further £2.51m provided during the year, were converted to equity in the year.

Loan facilities of £0.75m provided by Mr A Johnston prior to the commencement of the period were converted to equity in the year.

Borita Investments Limited is a company in which Mr J Wolhardt and his wife are interested. Loan facilities of £1.5m provided by Mr J Wolhardt prior to the commencement of the period were converted to equity in the year.

Loan facilities of £0.25m provided by Mr B Scott prior to the commencement of the period were converted to equity in the year. 

 

Other related party loans - Shareholders and other investors

Barry McLeish, George Letham, Stuart Gibson, Club 1872, Alan McLeish, Scott Forrest, Kirk Beaton, Perron Investments LLC, George Taylor, Daniel McKinlay, Neil Hosie. No interest or fees were charged on the loan facilities provided by the above individuals and organisations.

Mr B McLeish provided £0.25m of loans during the period, which were converted to equity in the year.

Mr G Letham provided £0.5m of loans prior to the commencement of the period, and a further £0.5m of loans during the year, all of which were converted to equity in the year.

Mr S Gibson provided £1.0m of loans prior to the commencement of the period, and a further £7.0m during the period, all of which were converted to equity in the year.

Club 1872 provided £0.5m of loans during the period, which were converted to equity in the year.

Mr A McLeish provided £0.5m of loans prior to the commencement of the period, and a further £0.5m during the period, all of which were converted to equity in the year.

Mr S Forrest provided £0.25m of loans during the period, which were converted to equity in the year.

Mr K Beaton provided £0.75m of loans during the period, which were converted to equity in the year.

Perron Investments LLC provided £3.25m of loans during the period, which were converted to equity in the year.

Mr G Taylor provided £1.5m of loans prior to the commencement of the period, and a further £1.5m during the period, all of which were converted to equity in the year.

Mr D McKinlay provided £0.5m of loans prior to the commencement of the period, which were converted to equity in the year.

Mr N Hosie provided £0.125m of loans prior to the commencement of the period, which were converted to equity in the year.

 

 

 

It’s a staggering amount of cash provided by these folks with little likelihood of seeing much if any of it again (unless your name is Dave King). The shares are getting diluted and diluted and diluted.

[Homme]

Oooft

 

[IveSeenTheLight]

1 hour ago, Heartsofgold said:

They were desperate to make the ECL group stages and beyond.  The Europa League is not lucrative enough to keep them operating.  I can see them selling Kent and maybe a couple of others in January to just remain viable.

 

They'll hold another share sale.

Selling Kent and others will not give them any real gain and leave them short.

 

It was interesting that Gerrard was bemoaning the transfer kitty the other day

[Footballfirst]

Despite their year on year loss of £17m in match day income due to the pandemic, they still managed to increase their wage bill by £4m.

[Deevers]

18 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

They'll hold another share sale.

Selling Kent and others will not give them any real gain and leave them short.

 

It was interesting that Gerrard was bemoaning the transfer kitty the other day

Surely even the thickest of them must see though the share issue scam by now. The value of the shares is being thoroughly diluted every time they do this. 
 

Unless they get some sort of a miracle, it’s all going to end very badly.

 

You would have though that after what happened the last time, the ruling bodies would have been insisting on them sticking to financial fair play. The amount of debt is once again becoming eye watering.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Deevers

[IveSeenTheLight]

1 minute ago, Deevers said:

Surely even the thickest of them must see though the share issue scam by now. The value of the shares is being thoroughly diluted every time they do this. 

 

What's the alternative? They walk away and let their tribute club die like their previous club

 

2 minutes ago, Deevers said:

Unless they get some sort of a miracle, it’s all going to end very badly.

 

They're essentially gambling on getting into the CL group stages. They can do that if they win the league this year

2 minutes ago, Deevers said:

You would have though that after what happened the last time, the ruling bodies would have been insisting on them sticking to financial fair play. The amount of debt is once again becoming eye watering.

 

FFP wouldn't have seen them win the league and stop 10 in a row.

The ruling bodies have once again opted to look the opposite way in order to help them achieve their goal

[SuperstarSteve]

They will win the league. Get champions league money and continue on. Rangers dying again is a dream I’ve gave up on but it’s good to knows it’s still a possibility however unlikely. 

[Boyces beard]

1 minute ago, SuperstarSteve said:

They will win the league. Get champions league money and continue on. Rangers dying again is a dream I’ve gave up on but it’s good to knows it’s still a possibility however unlikely. 

I dont think they will win the league, i think Celtic will win the league and get the Champ league money. Rangers will need to start again as sevco 2022

[jock _turd]

This is a difficult thread to post on , in as much as if you say anything at all, no matter how obvious it may be you are a hun or a hun sympathiser.  I am none of the above , however for those saying things like 

"most sensible folk would eventually give up donating into a black hole - but still plenty of lunatics happy to hand cash over to a lost cause than give to their families or worthy charities"

The people doing this are supporters of that club and are doing what they can to help the club... just like the many Hearts fans that every month give a little of their own money to help our own club... and some big hitters that have stepped to save our annual accounts statements look poor... but there is nothing lunatic about that?

[Deevers]

11 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

What's the alternative? They walk away and let their tribute club die like their previous club

They have a track record of doing that. 

 

They're essentially gambling on getting into the CL group stages. They can do that if they win the league this year

A big gamble.  The amount of money they are haemorrhaging just now is eye watering.

 

FFP wouldn't have seen them win the league and stop 10 in a row.

The ruling bodies have once again opted to look the opposite way in order to help them achieve their goal.

 

Its why everyone out with the OldFirm should be urgently looking at ways of breaking away from the corrupt status quo that’s ruining the game here. We all know what the problems are  - it takes moral courage though to deal with them.

 

[tian447]

Is there not 2 Champions League places for Scottish teams this year?  Thought 2nd place entered the last round of qualifying, but might be making that up.

[IveSeenTheLight]

3 minutes ago, SuperstarSteve said:

They will win the league. Get champions league money and continue on. 

 

I would absolutely Kevin Keegan it if they didn't

 

[XB52]

5 minutes ago, SuperstarSteve said:

They will win the league. Get champions league money and continue on. Rangers dying again is a dream I’ve gave up on but it’s good to knows it’s still a possibility however unlikely. 

Exactly why I want the tims to win the league (well prefer them over the huns) if we can't win it. 

[IveSeenTheLight]

1 minute ago, tian447 said:

Is there not 2 Champions League places for Scottish teams this year?  Thought 2nd place entered the last round of qualifying, but might be making that up.

 

Yes, The winners of the league are straight into the CL groups.

2nd place goes into the play-off round, so if they lose its Europa League groups

[SuperstarSteve]

8 minutes ago, Boyces beard said:

I dont think they will win the league, i think Celtic will win the league and get the Champ league money. Rangers will need to start again as sevco 2022

Hopefully we win it and they don’t get to start again this time but failing that Celtic or anybody else  will need to do.

[tian447]

5 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Yes, The winners of the league are straight into the CL groups.

2nd place goes into the play-off round, so if they lose its Europa League groups

 

Thought so, so basically Rangers will likely get a get-out of their money worries this season unless someone splits the Old Firm.

 

Typical.

[Armageddon]

43 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Despite their year on year loss of £17m in match day income due to the pandemic, they still managed to increase their wage bill by £4m.

 

@Footballfirst What's your opinion on all this and how it's been tracking?

[Mark_Mywords]

Interesting that Hamilton, Hibs and Livingston have a second licence review again this year.

Hamilton, Livingston, Ross County and St Mirren were refused their UEFA Licence award.

Rangers awarded Silver for Legal/Admin/Finance and Codes.  🤔

 

[IveSeenTheLight]

2 minutes ago, tian447 said:

 

Thought so, so basically Rangers will likely get a get-out of their money worries this season unless someone splits the Old Firm.

 

Typical.

 

I believe there's a massive difference between Europa League and Champions League payments.

 

Getting into the Europa League groups got a circa £4M base payout and then approx £200k per point gained in the group matches.. You get nothing extra for losing in the groups other than of course money related to actual matchday revenue

 

Champions league Group stage is circa $18M, with $1.1M per point in the groups.

 

So there is a massive opportunity and difference for the league winners this year

[JackLadd]

6 minutes ago, tian447 said:

 

Thought so, so basically Rangers will likely get a get-out of their money worries this season unless someone splits the Old Firm.

 

Typical.

 

For from guaranteed when their league form is sliding and they need to sell in Jan with a resurgent Celtic. The CL cash only pays 12 months after the competition starts and Sevco fans will demand investment should they qualify.

[tian447]

Just now, JackLadd said:

 

For from guaranteed when their league form is sliding and they need to sell in Jan with a resurgent Celtic. The CL cash only pays 12 months after the competition starts and Sevco fans will demand investment should they qualify.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope they (actually, I hope both of them) make a colossal ***** of it this season and miss out on a major payday.  We can't afford them to keep raking in money and getting further ahead of the rest of the pack, which is already a huge financial gap.  In order to compete, we really need to get closer to them and bring in a slightly higher quality of player every season.  Scottish football might be widely panned for being "shite" but it offers a relatively decent chance at teams getting into European competitions, but it becomes harder when you can't get near the top 2 spots in the League.

 

They'll do some shady deals to make sure that they stay near the top though.  Barring something major happening, I don't think there is really any realistic danger of The Rangers v3 becoming a thing.

[Footballfirst]

4 minutes ago, Armageddon said:

 

@Footballfirst What's your opinion on all this and how it's been tracking?

As someone posted earlier, there appears to be another speculative gamble going on to get to the CL groups.  It looks as if the Premiership champions this season will go directly to the group stage, based on coefficients, but it is not guaranteed as yet (it may depend on who wins the Europa League).

 

Ultimately, their losses are being underwritten by their directors and other shareholders. So all is above board. As long as there are people willing to piss their cash away in search of their CL dream they can sustain it.

 

They have already brought in a fair bit of "funding" this season through the September share issue (£4.5m gross, £3.5m net) and another £8.5m in loans (which will no doubt be converted to shares further down the line). They also say that another tranche of funding will be required in December (£7.5m is required before year end).

 

I don't have any insight into how it will all play out though.

[JackLadd]

The King loan has been repaid but won't show until next year's accounts, so they start next financial year with a 5.8m loss out the gate. Total cheating *******s like the dead club.

[IveSeenTheLight]

11 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

It looks as if the Premiership champions this season will go directly to the group stage, based on coefficients, but it is not guaranteed as yet (it may depend on who wins the Europa League).

 

Was that not the case for when the country was ranked 11th? Were now up to 9th which has a guaranteed group stage

[Jim Panzee]

32 minutes ago, jock _turd said:

This is a difficult thread to post on , in as much as if you say anything at all, no matter how obvious it may be you are a hun or a hun sympathiser.  I am none of the above , however for those saying things like 

"most sensible folk would eventually give up donating into a black hole - but still plenty of lunatics happy to hand cash over to a lost cause than give to their families or worthy charities"

The people doing this are supporters of that club and are doing what they can to help the club... just like the many Hearts fans that every month give a little of their own money to help our own club... and some big hitters that have stepped to save our annual accounts statements look poor... but there is nothing lunatic about that?

I guess its the size and scale of their black hole.

 

Yes we contribute to FOH etc - but we also have plenty of transparency. It all feels a bit shady with that lot and still the mindset of speculate to accumulate. that club are happy to take the fans cash - but then also get into bed with loan companies

[Footballfirst]

15 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Was that not the case for when the country was ranked 11th? Were now up to 9th which has a guaranteed group stage

Scotland was ranked 11th at the end of last season (2020/21) which determined the places for next season 2022/23.

 

The coefficient calculated from this season (2021/22) determines the places for season 2023/24.

[132goals1958]

I note they have again changed Auditors. Campbell Dallas was certainly a short lived appointment with them probably reluctant to sign the accounts of as a going concern. Always a bit suspicious when there is a frequent change of auditors. If there wage bill is around the £20 -25 million mark that represents about 1.6 -2 million per month yet there appears to be a tax and NI liability of just under £8 million due to HMRC. Presumably they were allowed to defer the payments during covid but as they have to report to Hector in real time I hope the authorities are on their case and now insisting on the backlog being brought up to date. A massive hole in the balance sheet with negative current assets which suggests a huge gamble in qualifying for the Champions league. Total financial mismanagement /indiscipline 

[DMR123]

10 minutes ago, 132goals1958 said:

I note they have again changed Auditors. Campbell Dallas was certainly a short lived appointment with them probably reluctant to sign the accounts of as a going concern. Always a bit suspicious when there is a frequent change of auditors. If there wage bill is around the £20 -25 million mark that represents about 1.6 -2 million per month yet there appears to be a tax and NI liability of just under £8 million due to HMRC. Presumably they were allowed to defer the payments during covid but as they have to report to Hector in real time I hope the authorities are on their case and now insisting on the backlog being brought up to date. A massive hole in the balance sheet with negative current assets which suggests a huge gamble in qualifying for the Champions league. Total financial mismanagement /indiscipline 

Azets acquired the Campbell Dallas business so it is effectively the same Auditors.

[132goals1958]

3 minutes ago, DMR123 said:

Azets acquired the Campbell Dallas business so it is effectively the same Auditors.

 

 

Cheers didn't know that. 

[buzzbomb1958]

20 minutes ago, Jim Panzee said:

I guess its the size and scale of their black hole.

 

Yes we contribute to FOH etc - but we also have plenty of transparency. It all feels a bit shady with that lot and still the mindset of speculate to accumulate. that club are happy to take the fans cash - but then also get into bed with loan companies

I smell corrupt practices going on here if we had FFP up here they would be laid bare , how any club can be allowed to run their business like this is down to the corruption being practiced in the higher echelons of the Scottish game I think it’s absolutely disgraceful 

[Rogue Daddy]

3 minutes ago, buzzbomb1958 said:

I smell corrupt practices going on here if we had FFP up here they would be laid bare , how any club can be allowed to run their business like this is down to the corruption being practiced in the higher echelons of the Scottish game I think it’s absolutely disgraceful 

I thought we did and that it was a UEFA 'practice' all European clubs had to adhere to?... in fact, I'm sure UEFA have said that tougher rules/sanctions were to be brought this or next season?

[John Findlay]

Spending money they haven't got, again. I wonder who they are hoping will pay HMRC for them?

[132goals1958]

6 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Spending money they haven't got, again. I wonder who they are hoping will pay HMRC for them?

 

But no matter what stopping 10 in a row was the be all and end all. Ra people insisted.

[Ex member of the SaS]

Mr K Beaton gave a loan of £0.75m. Any relation to referee John Beaton by any chance?  

[Hagar the Horrible]

52 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Scotland was ranked 11th at the end of last season (2020/21) which determined the places for next season 2022/23.

 

The coefficient calculated from this season (2021/22) determines the places for season 2023/24.

Is this once again speculating to accumulate, a model that has failed in football over and over again.

 

but a £23.5m operating loss, is one thing but in 12 months they can only blame Covid if that number is reduced. which they estimate is £10m, they forecast they still need £7.5m to see out this season

 

A year ago operating loss was £16m, but to get back to that, they need to increase revenue by about £10m and with £21m kept them afloat so far and £7.5m added to that, yet they still insist stability will be achieved by 2025.  CL football cannot be allowed to be the basis for your existance.  FFP?????  Clubs should be forced on a break even model, based on the last 3 years of accounts

[Halliphax]

5 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

RIFC has just reported a loss of £24m for the last financial year to 30 June 2021.

 

They also have a funding requirement of £7.5m to get through this season.

 

https://assets.ctfassets.net/39646iezddpk/iqWGrSHuBKRWHdWfD47xh/f13e45eb51a6e0f5a54e6b5e02195d01/Rangers_Reports_and_Accounts_2021.pdf

 

**** me, how much interest did the face painters charge to put them 24 million in the hole lol

[jock _turd]

1 hour ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Is this once again speculating to accumulate, a model that has failed in football over and over again.

 

but a £23.5m operating loss, is one thing but in 12 months they can only blame Covid if that number is reduced. which they estimate is £10m, they forecast they still need £7.5m to see out this season

 

A year ago operating loss was £16m, but to get back to that, they need to increase revenue by about £10m and with £21m kept them afloat so far and £7.5m added to that, yet they still insist stability will be achieved by 2025.  CL football cannot be allowed to be the basis for your existance.  FFP?????  Clubs should be forced on a break even model, based on the last 3 years of accounts

 

If that was actually the case none of the teams currently fighting out the CL would be there. I think the genie is out of the bottle and it is never going back in because there is no team in the world that can actually afford a player costing €100 million and then pay their salary on top of that. But more importantly UEFA are not going to make the geese who are laying the golden eggs extinct. There may come a time when all of the clubs that are in over their heads are going to go tits up but until then things will remain the same. Looking at the EPL for example it is laughable that a team like Brentford are in there ...as teams go it is questionable that they are a club to compete with Hearts never mind the teams in the English leagues... but money has been pumped into that club and they are now getting some of it back through playing in the EPL.

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, jock _turd said:

 

If that was actually the case none of the teams currently fighting out the CL would be there. I think the genie is out of the bottle and it is never going back in because there is no team in the world that can actually afford a player costing €100 million and then pay their salary on top of that. But more importantly UEFA are not going to make the geese who are laying the golden eggs extinct. There may come a time when all of the clubs that are in over their heads are going to go tits up but until then things will remain the same. Looking at the EPL for example it is laughable that a team like Brentford are in there ...as teams go it is questionable that they are a club to compete with Hearts never mind the teams in the English leagues... but money has been pumped into that club and they are now getting some of it back through playing in the EPL.

 

How so? Well run club, brimming with modern ideas currently sitting in 12th place and by all accounts playing decent football, what have they done wrong?

[Brick Tamland]

5 hours ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Mr K Beaton gave a loan of £0.75m. Any relation to referee John Beaton by any chance?  

That stuck out to me too, I wonder...

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, Brick Tamland said:

That stuck out to me too, I wonder...

He's the ref tomorrow.  Maybe someone could ask him.

[heartsfc_fan]

As much as I don't want to see Celtic win the league, I actually think they will and it will mess Rangers.

[His name is]

Does anyone know what their total debt is? I read somewhere that they have lost money every year since they were liquidated

[part_time_jambo]

Heard it all before. Wake me up when something bad actually happens to them.

[Footballfirst]

35 minutes ago, His name is said:

Does anyone know what their total debt is? I read somewhere that they have lost money every year since they were liquidated

The debt position isn't that bad, mainly because they have converted most of their loans to equity year on year.

 

Their current loans, as per the accounts are £10.25m to shareholders and £3.2 to the Scottish Government through the SPFL support scheme.

 

They have also had a further £8.5m in loans since year end.

 

It has been reported that £5m of the shareholder loans (to Dave King) has been repaid, probably from the funds received since year end.

 

Since Dave King ousted Mike Ashley's influence in 2015 they have reported total losses in each year of:

2015 - £8.1m

2016 - £7.5m

2017 - £3.3m

2018 - £6.3m

2019 - £14.3m

2020 - £18.1m

2021 - £26.1m

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Footballfirst

[Jambo_jim2001]

8 hours ago, Halliphax said:

**** me, how much interest did the face painters charge to put them 24 million in the hole lol

Maybe waiting on their PPI claim coming through,love kev I n bridges,talking about tiger man at rangers🤣

[Pasquale for King]

Got to love Stephane 😍🤣

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

The debt position isn't that bad, mainly because they have converted most of their loans to equity year on year.

 

Their current loans, as per the accounts are £10.25m to shareholders and £3.2 to the Scottish Government through the SPFL support scheme.

 

They have also had a further £8.5m in loans since year end.

 

It has been reported that £5m of the shareholder loans (to Dave King) has been repaid, probably from the funds received since year end.

 

Since Dave King ousted Mike Ashley's influence in 2015 they have reported total losses in each year of:

2015 - £8.1m

2016 - £7.5m

2017 - £3.3m

2018 - £6.3m

2019 - £14.3m

2020 - £18.1m

2021 - £26.1m

 

Let’s hope that trend continues. 

[jack D and coke]

I will spunk myself inside out if they go tits up again😂

[No Idle Talk]

If Covid would kill that club off then I would be willing to put up with this pandemic a while longer.