Jambof3tornado Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 I hope the rangers arent late will any tax bills in the near future, cant see hmrc being very flexible given the slagging off they are getting!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted November 16, 2019 Author Share Posted November 16, 2019 7 hours ago, CJGJ said: If only that applied to Google Amazon Starbucks and co we would have more income to spend on those in need Old Rangers were a UK compnay subject to the tax laws of the UK and these were fairly applied. By accident or design Oldco unlawfully reduced their tax bill and the law caught up with them. Amen. The other companies you mention are international companies and there are Double Taxation agreenents in place to decide in which country tax is to be paid. This can be a bit of a minefield and companies continually seek to reduce their global bill by inventive practices (legal avoidance). However when they do not obey the rules they too are subject to the same treatment as the original Rangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovecraft Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busby1985 Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Lovecraft said: I watched that the other day. Good watch. The thing that baffles me is that we have countless radio stations, papers, pundits and media outlets that will scream from the roof top about how good a win Celtics was against Livi on Saturday or how good a win Rangers had yesterday. Not one of them talk about the gulf in money between Celtic and Livi for example. £80 million or something like that in player costs for Celtic vs probably not even a million for Livi. Same with Rangers Hamilton yesterday. The only time money becomes an excuse is when the old firm are made to look ordinary in Europe. We need some financial fair play laws in our game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex member of the SaS Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 58 minutes ago, busby1985 said: I watched that the other day. Good watch. The thing that baffles me is that we have countless radio stations, papers, pundits and media outlets that will scream from the roof top about how good a win Celtics was against Livi on Saturday or how good a win Rangers had yesterday. Not one of them talk about the gulf in money between Celtic and Livi for example. £80 million or something like that in player costs for Celtic vs probably not even a million for Livi. Same with Rangers Hamilton yesterday. The only time money becomes an excuse is when the old firm are made to look ordinary in Europe. We need some financial fair play laws in our game. Said something similar the other day, why do all the other club allow Sevco to continue to win games playing players they can't afford. ( Celtic also have a huge gulf but they can afford the players they put out ) They are losing money hand over fist but teams turn out against them knowing they can't really win due to the gulf in player quality. Surely the rest can stand up at the GFA and say we won't play these games until the fair play rules are adhered to. Personally would love the both a'rs cheeks to go under but unfortunately that won't happen in the green side of Glasgow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busby1985 Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 17 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said: Said something similar the other day, why do all the other club allow Sevco to continue to win games playing players they can't afford. ( Celtic also have a huge gulf but they can afford the players they put out ) They are losing money hand over fist but teams turn out against them knowing they can't really win due to the gulf in player quality. Surely the rest can stand up at the GFA and say we won't play these games until the fair play rules are adhered to. Personally would love the both a'rs cheeks to go under but unfortunately that won't happen in the green side of Glasgow. Celtic, unfortunately, are a well oiled machine and have a great off field business. I don’t grudge them their success as much as I do Rangers. Playing players you can’t afford whilst posting loses year after year is exactly how they became so dominate the first time. The SFA and the rest Scottish football seem so desperate for the old firm to be back chasing each other that no one is asking any questions about rangers finances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 As I understand it, The Rangers don't fall foul of the FFP rules, because they convert the loans to equity every wee while.(Like Vlad). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allowayjambo1874 Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 59 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said: Said something similar the other day, why do all the other club allow Sevco to continue to win games playing players they can't afford. ( Celtic also have a huge gulf but they can afford the players they put out ) They are losing money hand over fist but teams turn out against them knowing they can't really win due to the gulf in player quality. Surely the rest can stand up at the GFA and say we won't play these games until the fair play rules are adhered to. Personally would love the both a'rs cheeks to go under but unfortunately that won't happen in the green side of Glasgow. But unfortunately they can afford it because they just do debt for equity deals every season for people who prop them up (namely some of the directors). Until the rest of the shareholders stop them from doing this and diluting their shares there’s not a lot can be done. You could argue that in recent seasons we’ve been doing similar thanks to our mysterious benefactor ( I know that is not accurate but it is an argument that could be used). The way clubs manage their debt should only come into effect when certain levels are reached, which is what FFP was all about, but Rangers like many English championship clubs just circumvent the rules. Im no Rangers apologist, just think with this stuff you have to try and remain objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groatallar Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 Rangers decided the best way to negotiate the big tax bill was to withhold PAYE and NI from them. I was surprised that HMRC took so long to act as they were constantly threatening Hearts and other clubs if we even missed one payment. When you deliberately withhold payments as the original Rangers did HMRC as policy will always push for liquidation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Groatallar said: Rangers decided the best way to negotiate the big tax bill was to withhold PAYE and NI from them. I was surprised that HMRC took so long to act as they were constantly threatening Hearts and other clubs if we even missed one payment. When you deliberately withhold payments as the original Rangers did HMRC as policy will always push for liquidation. HMRC voted against Hearts CVA too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 It's the RIFC AGM this morning, starting at 10am. I don't think there will be any controversial moments, as I'm sure that those allowed to ask questions will already have been primed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 On 15/11/2019 at 19:04, redjambo said: Oh come on. That was a fair point by CJGJ. It is widely recognised that many large international corporations are underpaying tax in the UK and other countries. There should be a fairer system. Is this your grown-up reaction to serious issues like this? I'm surprised you didn't go the whole hog and call him a snowflake. Very immature behaviour, imo. There is a difference between avoiiding Corporation Tax and not collecting VAT or paying employment taxes. The first is a tax on profit the second is a mechanism whereby the company acts as collector on behalf of HMRC. Let us not pretend that Rangers were not knowingly trying to cheat HMRC out of taxes they were due FROM employees of the company (as well as ER NI), with the sole purpose that they could pay said employees more than they could afford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Spellczech said: There is a difference between avoiiding Corporation Tax and not collecting VAT or paying employment taxes. The first is a tax on profit the second is a mechanism whereby the company acts as collector on behalf of HMRC. Let us not pretend that Rangers were not knowingly trying to cheat HMRC out of taxes they were due FROM employees of the company (as well as ER NI), with the sole purpose that they could pay said employees more than they could afford. At the Craig Whyte trial SDM was asked about the EBT's and responded that they "Gave us the opportunity to get players we otherwise couldn't afford" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterion Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Rangers AGM is ongoing... playing all the greatest hits (players are worth millions, new share issues). Also seems to be a change in the organisational structure of the business being announced (holding company to be removed and consolidated into the club business). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Mysterion said: Rangers AGM is ongoing... playing all the greatest hits (players are worth millions, new share issues). Also seems to be a change in the organisational structure of the business being announced (holding company to be removed and consolidated into the club business). Both the Record and the Herald are providing updates from the RIFC AGM. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-agm-2019-live-dave-20961315# https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/18060405.rangers-agm-live-latest-updates-dave-king-rangers-board-meet-shareholders/ Some snippets so far: King: "We continue to be bedevilled by Sports Direct’s influence on retail." King on investment: He was willing to do it but can’t do it for too long “without risk of collapse.” Says the club needs to get to get back to financial security. Ross Wilson asked to give valuation of the squad and provided two estimates. Present market value and projection if they progress. Uplift of £55m at present and £103m projection. An estimate but educated and shows the value of the investment. New share issue in January Funding initiative for new shares that will deal with the money needed to this season. He sees no need to continue the ad hoc investment and can sit down with an approved financial plan for squad. There is no longer a strategic need to incur losses. Funding initiative for new shares that will deal with the money needed this season. King plans to dismantle the Rangers holding company and fold the shares into the football club. Edited November 26, 2019 by Footballfirst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: Both the Record and the Herald are providing updates from the RIFC AGM. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-agm-2019-live-dave-20961315# https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/18060405.rangers-agm-live-latest-updates-dave-king-rangers-board-meet-shareholders/ Some snippets so far: King: " There is no longer a strategic need to incur losses" George Orwell would have been proud of that one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterion Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 King confirms he is stepping down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 (edited) King will redirect more time to his private affairs. Rangers doesn’t, he says, need his support anymore. An emotional King received a standing ovation from the floor. Being chairman has been ‘by far the greatest privilege’ of his business life. Will stay on to fight Sports Direct. AGM open to questions from the floor. Club 1872 thank DK for their dealings and being ‘welcoming’ to fan investment. Thanks for huge personal contributions in time and money that supporters will ‘never forget’ Question related to HMRC story and King says it is ‘not a club issue’. RIFC would have no claim and ‘real victims’ would be supporters and shareholders. Question on ticket allocation policy and fans being treated ‘with contempt’. Fan unhappy are missing out on cup final ticket. Stewart Robertson ‘understands frustration’ and club are looking at a new membership scheme. Supporter highlights disabled access at Ibrox and says it is not befitting of a club like Rangers and is emotional as he runs through issues. Robertson says investment will be made and understands the problems. On Ibrox expansion, SR says board are looking at feasibility studies The King's Speech https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/agm-2019-dave-king-speech/ Edited November 26, 2019 by Footballfirst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Another share issue to raise funds https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50556392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Final questions Fan wishes Gerrard all the best for the rest of the season. Gerrard jokes ‘I get four tickets and I need 20’ in relation to cup final. Thanks board for their support and pleased with progress of the team. It is ‘game on’ and he can’t wait for upcoming matches. Supporter raises concerns of segregation barriers at certain matches and says he’s waiting on a reply from Rangers and Police. SR asks for fan to discuss it personally with him. James Blair draws AGM to a close. ————————- Just the usual soft and planted questions with nothing on the SDI case or funding shortfall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 5 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: Final questions Fan wishes Gerrard all the best for the rest of the season. Gerrard jokes ‘I get four tickets and I need 20’ in relation to cup final. Thanks board for their support and pleased with progress of the team. It is ‘game on’ and he can’t wait for upcoming matches. Supporter raises concerns of segregation barriers at certain matches and says he’s waiting on a reply from Rangers and Police. SR asks for fan to discuss it personally with him. James Blair draws AGM to a close. ————————- Just the usual soft and planted questions with nothing on the SDI case or funding shortfall. Interesting to see how all this plays out. King baling out before the crash comes perhaps? Lots of unanswered stuff in the background that obviously they didn' t want discussed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chambie15 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 6 minutes ago, Deevers said: Interesting to see how all this plays out. King baling out before the crash comes perhaps? Lots of unanswered stuff in the background that obviously they didn' t want discussed. That's how I see it. There comes a time when even the wealthiest of villains looks at their pot of cash and says "Nup. Enough". Methinks Mr King has arrived at that spot right now. Bound to be squeaky posterior time yet again at Greyskull. The Eurpoean campaign now HAS to continue beyond Crimbo but even then, they'll be under massive pressure to raise funds from their saleable asset that is Morelos. And when he goes, watch Gerrard follow .... Popcorn anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 The squad value is interesting. Never sure the point of that. Wonder if that includes their young players (who will never get anywhere near first team under current plan to spend for success). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjcc Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said: The squad value is interesting. Never sure the point of that. Wonder if that includes their young players (who will never get anywhere near first team under current plan to spend for success). Values will also mean f all if they have a sudden need for cash and the vultures begin to circle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glamorgan Jambo Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 25 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: The squad value is interesting. Never sure the point of that. Wonder if that includes their young players (who will never get anywhere near first team under current plan to spend for success). Murray used to always inflate the squad and/or stadium values in order to make the accounts look better. It will be recorded as a one off uplift in asset value and transfer to the bottom line. (although worthless in terms of cash) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Interesting comments on the unexpected (and often short notice) cash calls he has been faced with coupled with significant capital transfer restrictions out of RSA - it looks like the well has run dry from his perspective. Couple this with the neutral comment about the January transfer window and I'd be astounded if there weren't net departures and a slight weakening of their squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 How many share issues have Rangers had since reforming ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IveSeenTheLight Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 11 minutes ago, Jap Jambo said: Interesting comments on the unexpected (and often short notice) cash calls he has been faced with coupled with significant capital transfer restrictions out of RSA - it looks like the well has run dry from his perspective. Couple this with the neutral comment about the January transfer window and I'd be astounded if there weren't net departures and a slight weakening of their squad. I think they are hoping to sell off some players. Rumours are that's why Mark Allen left, because he couldn't flog Tavernier / Morelos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunks Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Wonder who will underwrite the share issue? Could be the HK guy and this is his move to take control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future's Maroon Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 King jumping ship before the shit hits the fan maybe?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
132goals1958 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 2 hours ago, scott herbertson said: George Orwell would have been proud of that one Hopefully Down and out in Paris and London moves on to Glasgow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasavallan Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 3 hours ago, The Future's Maroon said: King jumping ship before the shit hits the fan maybe?! Or the fan hits the shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 7 hours ago, Footballfirst said: Both the Record and the Herald are providing updates from the RIFC AGM. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-agm-2019-live-dave-20961315# https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/18060405.rangers-agm-live-latest-updates-dave-king-rangers-board-meet-shareholders/ Some snippets so far: King: "We continue to be bedevilled by Sports Direct’s influence on retail." King on investment: He was willing to do it but can’t do it for too long “without risk of collapse.” Says the club needs to get to get back to financial security. Ross Wilson asked to give valuation of the squad and provided two estimates. Present market value and projection if they progress. Uplift of £55m at present and £103m projection. An estimate but educated and shows the value of the investment. New share issue in January Funding initiative for new shares that will deal with the money needed to this season. He sees no need to continue the ad hoc investment and can sit down with an approved financial plan for squad. There is no longer a strategic need to incur losses. Funding initiative for new shares that will deal with the money needed this season. King plans to dismantle the Rangers holding company and fold the shares into the football club. Utter nonsense number that one - Has a club ever managed to successfully up the value of every squad member? Perhaps If Rangers win the EL or CL but no change otherwise - pie in the sky stuff to satisfy the Bears that "investment" in players is worthwhile... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 If Morelos received a serious injury, they’d be ****ed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busby1985 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Icon of Symmetry said: If Morelos received a serious injury, they’d be ****ed. Allen left because Rangers wanted to keep Morelos/Tav/Arfield etc and chase the title, rather than sell them. Board backed Gerrard over Allen. Trophies and titles have to come this season to stop 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, busby1985 said: Allen left because Rangers wanted to keep Morelos/Tav/Arfield etc and chase the title, rather than sell them. Board backed Gerrard over Allen. Trophies and titles have to come this season to stop 10. Spoke to a weenie taxi driver before the wee cup semi, and asked him what his thoughts were on the financial side of thing. Doesn’t matter, only thing that matters is stopping 10 in a row, apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busby1985 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 13 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said: Spoke to a weenie taxi driver before the wee cup semi, and asked him what his thoughts were on the financial side of thing. Doesn’t matter, only thing that matters is stopping 10 in a row, apparently. Yip. It’s all they care about. Players are the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex member of the SaS Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Was there not something in the recent financial reports that King ( through one of his dodgy funds ) would fund the short fall, but unlike last term it was not guaranteed this time. I think to get the accounts passed last time they need an assurance that the shortfall would be covered. In this years accounts that assurance was not given Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambovambo Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 19 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said: Spoke to a weenie taxi driver before the wee cup semi, and asked him what his thoughts were on the financial side of thing. Doesn’t matter, only thing that matters is stopping 10 in a row, apparently. How did he reach the pedals ? Arf. I know what you meant really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
132goals1958 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 41 minutes ago, Spellczech said: Utter nonsense number that one - Has a club ever managed to successfully up the value of every squad member? Perhaps If Rangers win the EL or CL but no change otherwise - pie in the sky stuff to satisfy the Bears that "investment" in players is worthwhile... Exactly. Players are on fixed term contracts so if they applied some form of valuation as with any other asset they would be written down over the length of their contract. It is also unrealistic to somehow compare their net realizable value in relation to traditional accounting concepts. Loss of form,injuries, perception of an inferior league, age, temperament, are some of the imponderables that can weigh heavily in favour of prospective buyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, jambovambo said: How did he reach the pedals ? Arf. I know what you meant really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
132goals1958 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Just watched the glib and shameless one on BBC. Bottom lip trembling as he announces he is bowing out. Got to be right up there as an Oscar nominee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Findlay Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 (edited) The bairns have obviously said. "Dad can we have our inheritance now?" Edited November 26, 2019 by John Findlay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 On 25/11/2019 at 12:25, busby1985 said: I watched that the other day. Good watch. The thing that baffles me is that we have countless radio stations, papers, pundits and media outlets that will scream from the roof top about how good a win Celtics was against Livi on Saturday or how good a win Rangers had yesterday. Not one of them talk about the gulf in money between Celtic and Livi for example. £80 million or something like that in player costs for Celtic vs probably not even a million for Livi. Same with Rangers Hamilton yesterday. The only time money becomes an excuse is when the old firm are made to look ordinary in Europe. We need some financial fair play laws in our game. It absolutely pissed me off when Rodgers bleated about the gap in Europe and then would have no mention of the bigger gap that existed in the league when someone had the balls to put that to him. Sadly none of the cheer leaders in the press will ever make this comparison routinely or be reasoned and measured when teams take a tonking off either of the filth. The rest of the clubs are just door-mats and it still rankles that we didn't make things fairer when voting rights changed, when the SPL and then SPFL were formed, when the tribute act were in the lower divisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diadora Van Basten Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 On 15/11/2019 at 17:33, CJGJ said: If only that applied to Google Amazon Starbucks and co we would have more income to spend on those in need Google Amazon Starbucks = tax avoidance which is legal Rangers = tax evasion which is illegal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobNox Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 So what's this about folding the holding company shares into the football club? That surely means if they go bust, there can be no argument that the club survived. Seems like an odd decision unless I'm missing something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 2 hours ago, 132goals1958 said: Just watched the glib and shameless one on BBC. Bottom lip trembling as he announces he is bowing out. Got to be right up there as an Oscar nominee. As good as this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereford_hearts Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 I'm sure that King is chairman of the holding company, not the club. With them being amalgamated, I'm sure he cannot continue as chairman, as he has a snowballs chance in hell of passing the fit and proper person test, hence his resignation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Fox Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 22 hours ago, Footballfirst said: It's the RIFC AGM this morning, starting at 10am. I don't think there will be any controversial moments, as I'm sure that those allowed to ask questions will already have been primed. Yes just another Sevco boring boring AGM, nothing major announced eg boardroom changes etc! Just another day of smoke and mirrors .... The Sevco (a lovechild) are failing ... is the big rat 🐀 abandoning the ship 🚢 ... before it hits the rocks?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berrasbraw Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 They can’t have many shares left to punt surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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