The Sevco saga continues ...

[Don Dan]

Anyone smell a lawsuit smouldering on the embers of Deadco? I can see the Taxman in court over its miscalculation which saw Deadco suffer. If this Times article is accurate there will be a few bean counters wearing shitty underwear choking on their cornflakes this morning!
 

[hereford_hearts]

The debt to HM Revenue & Customs  was only £14,372,042, when they went bust. That was due to Rangers (RIP) stopping paying PAYE, National Insurance and VAT, so even if the Wee tax case and the Big Tax case had gone in Ranger's (RIP) favour. They would still have been ****ed! So, in summary, the pro Hun writer of this piece, is talking out of his Jacksie!!

[Dunks]

29 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

Anyone smell a lawsuit smouldering on the embers of Deadco? I can see the Taxman in court over its miscalculation which saw Deadco suffer. If this Times article is accurate there will be a few bean counters wearing shitty underwear choking on their cornflakes this morning!
 

 

Who would raise this lawsuit?

[Don Dan]

1 minute ago, Dunks said:

 

Who would raise this lawsuit?

liquidators on behalf of the creditors who suffered financial loss because of the mis calculation. Anyone who suffered financially because of the liquidation. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

10 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said:

damn fenian tax officials

I would imagine their forum will have mentioned that.

[Dunks]

4 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

liquidators on behalf of the creditors who suffered financial loss because of the mis calculation. Anyone who suffered financially because of the liquidation. 

 

Possible I suppose, but can't see BDO going down that route. Does it not increase the current creditor pot?

[Don Dan]

2 minutes ago, Dunks said:

 

Possible I suppose, but can't see BDO going down that route. Does it not increase the current creditor pot?

It could well increase the pot but the Taxman would be liable. If (a big if) it can be proved that  Deadco could have traded their way out of the actual debt or gathered in soft loans etc to meet the tax bill then they have a case. This doesn’t take away the fact that they were cheating by trying to hide payments to players etc. In the end if could be viewed as rough justice but well deserved justice. 

[Walter Bishop]

This information was available 5 months ago. 

 

Something must be brewing down Ibrox way for this to be a "story".

 

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

It could well increase the pot but the Taxman would be liable. If (a big if) it can be proved that  Deadco could have traded their way out of the actual debt or gathered in soft loans etc to meet the tax bill then they have a case. This doesn’t take away the fact that they were cheating by trying to hide payments to players etc. In the end if could be viewed as rough justice but well deserved justice. 

 

Isn't all this stuff about over stating the tax liability in relation to the EBTs (the big tax case?)

 

After all, they went into admin because of the small tax case (NICs, PAYE etc) and that was enough to get them liquidated.

 

But, I could be wrong and the story also claims that the small tax case was over egged?

[Dunks]

9 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

It could well increase the pot but the Taxman would be liable. If (a big if) it can be proved that  Deadco could have traded their way out of the actual debt or gathered in soft loans etc to meet the tax bill then they have a case. This doesn’t take away the fact that they were cheating by trying to hide payments to players etc. In the end if could be viewed as rough justice but well deserved justice. 

 

I can't see it, but it would be fun to watch if it happens. Any successful litigation would I assume be added to the creditors pot. They're still (nearly) deid

 

[DETTY29]

https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2019/11/14/just-when-i-thought-i-was-out-they-pull-me-back-in/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

And the other view.  Which picks apart any 5th Level crap.

[Ex member of the SaS]

13 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2019/11/14/just-when-i-thought-i-was-out-they-pull-me-back-in/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

And the other view.  Which picks apart any 5th Level crap.

Interesting part about the Ibrox disaster. I assume there was a fund raised, and they used it to keep afloat, so by abandoning the fund those who donated want their money back.

[Lovecraft]

[DETTY29]

17 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Interesting part about the Ibrox disaster. I assume there was a fund raised, and they used it to keep afloat, so by abandoning the fund those who donated want their money back.

Don't know, doesn't expand.

 

It appears the revised HMRC - BDO agreement isn't  a kick in the backside off £70m.

 

Not a figure I have seen yet in the MSM.

 

So HMRC would still have blocked the CVA....

 

[Glamorgan Jambo]

The total reduction claimed in the Times story wasn't all in the public domain 5 months ago as the gross/net review hadn't been completed according to the extract from the BDO report above. If HMRC have stopped contesting appeals about penalties and even interest (although I doubt that is contestable) then they will also stop contesting whether the EBT payments paid to players etc were gross or net of all taxes.

 

In any case it's totally academic. Even with a tax debt of £20 million Rangers were unsellable and essentially insolvent given the bank slamming the door shut on all requests for funding from David Murray and his various companies in 2008.

 

It's a good narrative to play to the permanently offended hordes down Govan way but irrelevant and in my opinion false.

 

Why now? Who knows. Sevco are in dire straits financially despite the sterling work of Gerrard. they are falling further and further under the control of HK based Wolhardt presuming he's not fronting for someone else according to the latest release. the fans have just pumped a further half million in for the privilege of seeing their ownership further diluted.

 

No wonder they're making an early start to their January sales with idiotic stories about vast bids coming in for Kamara etc

[DETTY29]

7 minutes ago, Glamorgan Jambo said:

The total reduction claimed in the Times story wasn't all in the public domain 5 months ago as the gross/net review hadn't been completed according to the extract from the BDO report above. If HMRC have stopped contesting appeals about penalties and even interest (although I doubt that is contestable) then they will also stop contesting whether the EBT payments paid to players etc were gross or net of all taxes.

 

In any case it's totally academic. Even with a tax debt of £20 million Rangers were unsellable and essentially insolvent given the bank slamming the door shut on all requests for funding from David Murray and his various companies in 2008.

 

It's a good narrative to play to the permanently offended hordes down Govan way but irrelevant and in my opinion false.

 

Why now? Who knows. Sevco are in dire straits financially despite the sterling work of Gerrard. they are falling further and further under the control of HK based Wolhardt presuming he's not fronting for someone else according to the latest release. the fans have just pumped a further half million in for the privilege of seeing their ownership further diluted.

 

No wonder they're making an early start to their January sales with idiotic stories about vast bids coming in for Kamara etc

Murray Group still crashed.

 

LBG still look for debt reduction plan but also actively seeking buyer as soon as possible.

 

Whyte still comes in.

 

Rangers still fail CL and, or EL money to support business plan.

 

Wee Tax Case figure is still agreed and not paid.

 

Whyte still can't afford to pay income tax and NIC contributions.

 

HMRC still don't agree any proposed medium or long term payment plans (IMO, like Hearts they may have agreed on a 2 year ongoing and backdated plan at best)

 

Administration still happens.

 

HMRC still block CVA.

 

The old club is still liquidated.

 

The football authorities still shit their pants and fix Terms of Reference for LNS case.

 

Sevco is still formed and new club starts up in bottom tier.

 

Press still spinning a pro (The) Rangers stance.

 

Creditors no better off.

 

BDO continue to charge millions for liquidation process.

 

So very much as you were then.......

 

[Footballfirst]

The question I would have is "why now?", five months after the information was available from BDO's report to creditors (their next report is due in the next three or four weeks).

 

Is HMRC being set up as the bad guys at this time for a reason?

 

HMRC got what they wanted from the Rangers Tax Case in 2017 at the Supreme Court. Arguing the quantum of the penalties applied will make little difference to them (maybe £1m in liquidators' dividends in Rangers case) against the scope of the SC ruling on other tax dodgers. 

[Deevers]

2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

The question I would have is "why now?", five months after the information was available from BDO's report to creditors (their next report is due in the next three or four weeks).

 

Is HMRC being set up as the bad guys at this time for a reason?

 

HMRC got what they wanted from the Rangers Tax Case in 2017 at the Supreme Court. Arguing the quantum of the penalties applied will make little difference to them (maybe £1m in liquidators' dividends in Rangers case) against the scope of the SC ruling on other tax dodgers. 

Obviously something negative about them about to come to the top again shortly. The tame hacks being used again as a deflection. I wonder if HMRC are sniffing about the new entity for some reason.

[kirkierobroy]

Has anyone donned a radiological protection suit and gone into Bears Den to judge the feeling of the meeting there?

[Walter Bishop]

Just now, kirkierobroy said:

Has anyone donned a radiological protection suit and gone into Bears Den to judge the feeling of the meeting there?

Yeah, Comedy gold! 

 

Some of them wanting £50 million compensation to spend in January!

[Castle rock]

With or without the tax case no one stepped up to save them no one to blame but themselves THEY let there club die no one else 

[Spot the dog]

HMRC is a Crown Office, no lawsuit can be raised. Although it would be funny it The Sevconians were to sue the Crown.

[Jambo-Fox]

3 hours ago, DETTY29 said:

https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2019/11/14/just-when-i-thought-i-was-out-they-pull-me-back-in/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

And the other view.  Which picks apart any 5th Level crap.

Thanks for sharing that, helps explain to some extent

[Jamboelite]

It was always an estimation of costs due at the time. I’m sure Rangers had lawyers who were also estimating what it could be and if they thought it was way off would have advised accordingly.

 

Murray blinked and thought “f}^{ this im off” And that was his choice based on the advice im sure he would have taken.

 

They cant now change history to say had the estimated value been different then we would have stayed and paid it.

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Jamboelite

[JamboAl]

I would be lying if I said I knew the full facts behind this new claim but it looks  like a "johnny come lately" effort to have the blame apportioned at someone else's door.

 

The Taxman considers the facts of the case (in the absence of Rangers providing the correct amounts) and issues an estimated assessment based on their reasonable conclusions (a statutory requirement).  This is usually in figures which can turn out to be excessive to provoke an appeal.  If no appeal has been made within the legal time limits, that assessment becomes final and conclusive, save in exceptional/unavoidable circumstances.

If an appeal has been made it goes to a tribunal to determine what the correct figures should have been and the assessment is altered accordingly.    That usually is the end of the matter but procedures can go on a bit longer if there are points of law etc at issue.  However once these appeal procedures have been exhausted that is the end of the game.

 

 If Rangers have been overcharged I would suggest it is the fault of Rangers by not provididng the requisite data or failing to make timeous appeals and not a blunder by the Taxman.  Perhaps FF, or someone else, can enlighten me if I've been barking up the wrong tree.

 

 

[Coburg Hearts]

6 hours ago, Barack said:

Think the biggest talking point about this picture, is Gillian Anderson.

 

You don't think I posted that because of the story, did you? haha

[itsnomarooned]

53 minutes ago, Spot the dog said:

HMRC is a Crown Office, no lawsuit can be raised. Although it would be funny it The Sevconians were to sue the Crown.

HMRC can be sued.

[CavySlaveJambo]

 Am I remembering rightly that even with this smaller amount attributed to the big tax case, then it would have made no difference to the CVA vote result. HMRC overall between the three sets of money owed (Big Tag Case, Wee Tax Case, Non-Payment) would still have amounted to over 25% of the money owed. 

[Biguche]

41 minutes ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

 Am I remembering rightly that even with this smaller amount attributed to the big tax case, then it would have made no difference to the CVA vote result. HMRC overall between the three sets of money owed (Big Tag Case, Wee Tax Case, Non-Payment) would still have amounted to over 25% of the money owed. 

 

Not sure but think the point is Rangers would have been a much more attractive proposition to potential buyers if the big tax case amount was £50m less than was claimed

[Benny Factor]

3 minutes ago, Biguche said:

 

Not sure but think the point is Rangers would have been a much more attractive proposition to potential buyers if the big tax case amount was £50m less than was claimed

Wondered when you would show up to defend the deceased!

[RobNox]

3 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

The question I would have is "why now?", five months after the information was available from BDO's report to creditors (their next report is due in the next three or four weeks).

 

Is HMRC being set up as the bad guys at this time for a reason?

 

HMRC got what they wanted from the Rangers Tax Case in 2017 at the Supreme Court. Arguing the quantum of the penalties applied will make little difference to them (maybe £1m in liquidators' dividends in Rangers case) against the scope of the SC ruling on other tax dodgers. 

 

Another insolvency event looming perhaps?  

[The Old Tolbooth]

Just saying...

 

[Ex member of the SaS]

Sevco and Celtic fans bombarding HMRC on twitter according to the Scotsman. They really are thick and deserve each other.

[Spot the dog]

Aopologies, since an appeal case of 2018, HMRC can be sued. However the statute of limitations for debt which arises under statute is 6 years. 

[Jeff]

Hope they stop paying tax as revenge

[Jambo66]

2 hours ago, Biguche said:

 

Not sure but think the point is Rangers would have been a much more attractive proposition to potential buyers if the big tax case amount was £50m less than was claimed

I think you are missing the point. The CVA would have been blocked by HMRC regardless. The only way that the liquidation could have been avoided is if a potential purchaser had agreed to meet 100% of the debt - which was still enormous.

 

What actually happened almost certainly would still have happened.

[Footballfirst]

Here's RTC's latest on today's "news"

 

https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/

 

Reality v Fiction

Edited November 14, 2019 by Footballfirst

[Castle rock]

7 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Here's RTC's latest on today's "news"

 

https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/

Thanks for that FF

[Mikey1874]

Rangers have come out of it okay. 

[Footballfirst]

From a retweet by a Rangers minded correspondent. 

 

Statement from BDO spokesperson:

“Since we published the last creditors report in June, BDO’s tax specialists have been negotiating with HMRC over the size of the tax bill. There is no final decision, negotiations are ongoing and we expect a resolution of this in 2020.”

Edited November 14, 2019 by Footballfirst

[kila]

The timing of this with a General Election coming up...

 

 

[Victorian]

It's a golden opportunity for them to produce a wholesale,  fundamental re-write of the entire narrative.    That they did literally nothing wrong and would have carried on as if nothing happened,   but for a huge,  insidious [insert sectarianism based paranoid delusion here] conspiracy.      That a lot of people who probably attended the wrong school did them down.     

[trotter]

7 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

The question I would have is "why now?", five months after the information was available from BDO's report to creditors (their next report is due in the next three or four weeks).

 

Is HMRC being set up as the bad guys at this time for a reason?

 

HMRC got what they wanted from the Rangers Tax Case in 2017 at the Supreme Court. Arguing the quantum of the penalties applied will make little difference to them (maybe £1m in liquidators' dividends in Rangers case) against the scope of the SC ruling on other tax dodgers. 

Correct, it wasn't even that much of an issue of the money I believe, it was more the precedence for when they start going after the really big fish. 

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

From a retweet by a Rangers minded correspondent. 

 

Statement from BDO spokesperson:

“Since we published the last creditors report in June, BDO’s tax specialists have been negotiating with HMRC over the size of the tax bill. There is no final decision, negotiations are ongoing and we expect a resolution of this in 2020.”

A positive outcome for Rangers would be a fantastic precedent for many tax avoiders/evaders in this countr.....

Sorry, I could not finish that sentence because some pigs flew past my window.

[J80MBO]

The negativity to the names linked with job you would think hearts were some sort of football world big hitter (likes of hughton, o'Neill and Moyes being suggested on here etc..

nonsense)...need bit ambition but with a pinch or two of realism.

[Substandardliege]

All of this is nonsense, BDO will be negotiating with HMRC and the outcome will be coming out in 2020, as for sevco fans saying they wouldn’t of been liquidated absolute crap, they were over 200M in debt.. 

[JackLadd]

Huns will believe anyone who feeds them comforting lies.  

[jambovambo]

 

[Jambof3tornado]

Aye but we arra peepul.

 

 

**** off.

[buzzbomb1958]

They are dying again deflection story to appease the orcs bad news on its way methinks