The Sevco saga continues ...

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

Just now, John Findlay said:

Agreed.

[buzzbomb1958]

On 12/10/2019 at 14:10, brux said:

What's going on with his hair?

It died

[Footballfirst]

I don't think you are going to change anyone's view on the same/new club argument, but for what it's worth here is mine.

 

What followed the administration of the Oldco was basically a stitch up between the Oldco (Duff & Phelps), Newco (Charles Green), SFA, SPL and SFL, commonly known as the 5 way agreement, which allowed "Rangers" to be treated as if it had simply emerged from administration, intact, as several clubs had done previously, and since.

 

That agreement was given credence by LNS who described the "club" as an "undertaking" which was capable of being transferred between companies. He even recognised that the "undertaking" was not a legal entity and it was the SPL's own rules that allowed for the separation of a club and company in that way, "depending on the context".

 

It is typical of football authorities across the globe that they are willing to ignore the practical and legal implications of such situations by recognising new entities as a continuation of the old, e.g. clubs that are too big to fail, or are the fabric of society.

 

The failure of the Oldco to obtain a CVA was the trigger event.  That decision meant that the company could not continue to trade as a going concern and the assets would have to be sold.  The offer made by Charles Green to Duff and Phelps covered both a successful CVA or the failure of a CVA. In the event the second part of the offer came into play, i.e. an asset sale and transfer. 

 

Duff and Phelps continued the illusion of it being the the same club with their description of the sale as being the "going concern sale of the business and assets".  How it could be described as a "going concern" sale mystifies me, given that the CVA had been rejected. It all adds to the fallacy that football clubs can never die, at least if there is someone willing to resurrect them. 

 

The same/new club argument has never been tested in court, although a QC acting for Charles Green did describe the sale as the purchase of a basket of assets and that the concept of the club surviving as being a myth in the heads of supporters. I think it was Lord Brodie who commented that the court couldn't deal with metaphysics. 

 

In summary, I believe that it is technically / legally a new club, but the football authorities have decided to treat it as a continuation of the old club.

 

I couldn't give a toss either way. I dislike the current incarnation as much as I disliked the previous one.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Footballfirst

[jaywalker]

I don't know about anyone else but I am sick and tired about reading about these twats on here, surely this forum is supposed to be about Hearts. Some folk seem to be more interested in the weegies.  

[Tommy Brown]

52 minutes ago, jaywalker said:

I don't know about anyone else but I am sick and tired about reading about these twats on here, surely this forum is supposed to be about Hearts. Some folk seem to be more interested in the weegies.  

We are entitled to know about corruption that ultimately affects Hearts

[1971fozzy]

9 hours ago, jaywalker said:

I don't know about anyone else but I am sick and tired about reading about these twats on here, surely this forum is supposed to be about Hearts. Some folk seem to be more interested in the weegies.  

the trick is not to look at these threads 

[BelgeJambo]

Now showing an interest in Hickey.

You can’t make their shit up

[Unknown user]

51 minutes ago, 1971fozzy said:

the trick is not to look at these threads 

 

This, no reason to shut something down for all of us when the answer's as simple as not opening threads with the word rangers in the title.

[hereford_hearts]

11 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I don't think you are going to change anyone's view on the same/new club argument, but for what it's worth here is mine.

 

What followed the administration of the Oldco was basically a stitch up between the Oldco (Duff & Phelps), Newco (Charles Green), SFA, SPL and SFL, commonly known as the 5 way agreement, which allowed "Rangers" to be treated as if it had simply emerged from administration, intact, as several clubs had done previously, and since.

 

That agreement was given credence by LNS who described the "club" as an "undertaking" which was capable of being transferred between companies. He even recognised that the "undertaking" was not a legal entity and it was the SPL's own rules that allowed for the separation of a club and company in that way, "depending on the context".

 

It is typical of football authorities across the globe that they are willing to ignore the practical and legal implications of such situations by recognising new entities as a continuation of the old, e.g. clubs that are too big to fail, or are the fabric of society.

 

The failure of the Oldco to obtain a CVA was the trigger event.  That decision meant that the company could not continue to trade as a going concern and the assets would have to be sold.  The offer made by Charles Green to Duff and Phelps covered both a successful CVA or the failure of a CVA. In the event the second part of the offer came into play, i.e. an asset sale and transfer. 

 

Duff and Phelps continued the illusion of it being the the same club with their description of the sale as being the "going concern sale of the business and assets".  How it could be described as a "going concern" sale mystifies me, given that the CVA had been rejected. It all adds to the fallacy that football clubs can never die, at least if there is someone willing to resurrect them. 

 

The same/new club argument has never been tested in court, although a QC acting for Charles Green did describe the sale as the purchase of a basket of assets and that the concept of the club surviving as being a myth in the heads of supporters. I think it was Lord Brodie who commented that the court couldn't deal with metaphysics. 

 

In summary, I believe that it is technically / legally a new club, but the football authorities have decided to treat it as a continuation of the old club.

 

I couldn't give a toss either way. I dislike the current incarnation as much as I disliked the previous one.

 

Exactly what I think! The only let down is you forgot this at the end?

 

You let your club die!

 

Or maybe

 

Your not rangers anymore!

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

This, no reason to shut something down for all of us when the answer's as simple as not opening threads with the word rangers in the title.

 

Exactly, there are lots of threads I've never opened, and why, because I read the thread title and if it doesn't interest me I don't bother to open the thread, it's really that simple.

 

Moaning about reading about sevco on a sevco thread, is like moaning that you got a chicken burger when you ordered a..................chicken burger.

[buzzbomb1958]

On 12/10/2019 at 14:10, brux said:

What's going on with his hair?

It died

 

3 hours ago, hereford_hearts said:

Exactly what I think! The only let down is you forgot this at the end?

 

You let your club die!

 

Or maybe

 

Your not rangers anymore!

Instead of moaning about reading a thread about the new club just think of it as a history lesson along the lines of say the Roman empire it is defunct no longer exists ,just like the parrot it is extinct,you know it I know it everyone but the orcs know it never let them forget

[alwaysthereinspirit]

14 hours ago, jaywalker said:

I don't know about anyone else but I am sick and tired about reading about these twats on here, surely this forum is supposed to be about Hearts. Some folk seem to be more interested in the weegies.  

I for one am fine with it. This thread will not and should not ever die. Unlike olde Rankgers. 

I usually open these type threads just on the off chance another Scottish team (Newco) has done a "Norwegian Blue" and is bereft of life.

Every new day brings hope.

Great minds think alike I see.

Edited October 15, 2019 by alwaysthereinspirit

[hereford_hearts]

On 15/10/2019 at 06:47, buzzbomb1958 said:

It died

 

Instead of moaning about reading a thread about the new club just think of it as a history lesson along the lines of say the Roman empire it is defunct no longer exists ,just like the parrot it is extinct,you know it I know it everyone but the orcs know it never let them forget

I'm not moaning about this thread. I revel in every post about the demise of the left arse cheek. If only the right arse cheek went tits up as well all of my Christmases would have come together. Yes, I hate them more than Hibs, before anybody asks, and yes I wanted Hibs to win the cup final rather than sevco, although it was as close call!

[John Findlay]

26 minutes ago, hereford_hearts said:

I'm not moaning about this thread. I revel in every post about the demise of the left arse cheek. If only the right arse cheek went tits up as well all of my Christmases would have come together. Yes, I hate them more than Hibs, before anybody asks, and yes I wanted Hibs to win the cup final rather than sevco, although it was as close call!

Light the torch paper and stand back

[Footballfirst]

It seems that the club is still looking for external funds. Club 1872 is in the process of canvassing members about a proposed share purchase of £500,000 (2.5m shares).

 

https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/17998031.club-1872-seek-member-approval-500k-rangers-share-purchase/

Quote

An email to members on Monday read: “The Club 1872 board is pleased to inform members that we have the opportunity to purchase a further 2.5 million shares in RIFC, from the company, at a price of 20p per share - the same terms as the recent conversions of soft loans by other investors.

“This purchase will cost £500,000 with all funds going into Rangers. Available funds from Club 1872 Shares CIC can be committed for this purpose by the Club 1872 board but in order to purchase the full share allocation, a poll of members is required for the use of funds from Club 1872 Projects CIC.

“Members are asked to vote below on whether they authorise £235,000 of funds from Club 1872 Projects CIC being used to purchase 1,175,000 shares in RIFC to be held by Club 1872 Projects CIC. If the vote passes, this will mean that the combined Club 1872 shareholding will rise to 16,202,838 shares in RIFC representing 6.47% of the company. This will move Club 1872 from the 6th to the 4th largest shareholder in RIFC and increase our current percentage shareholding by 1%.

“This poll will close on 2nd November 2019 at midnight.”

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Footballfirst

[Jambo-Fox]

40 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

It seems that the club is still looking for external funds. Club 1872 is in the process of canvassing members about a proposed share purchase of £500,000 (2.5m shares).

 

https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/17998031.club-1872-seek-member-approval-500k-rangers-share-purchase/

These ‘huns’ seem to be spending an awful lot of money for not very much ......  the more they spend the less they have .... and they never learn because they then spend even more for less ....

[tntjambo]

lol

 

[Kiwidoug]

I hope I'm right in thinking that their stadium is in a state of disrepair and they haven't got the funds to upgrade it.  Too busy tryig to keep up with their neighbours.

 

Hope they don't get any big transfer income.

[sadj]

Lol

[Jambo 4 Ever]

On 14/10/2019 at 19:49, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Correct. As per Standard Life and Phoenix.

What happened there?

[Jim Panzee]

6 hours ago, Jambo-Fox said:

These ‘huns’ seem to be spending an awful lot of money for not very much ......  the more they spend the less they have .... and they never learn because they then spend even more for less ....

Impressive they can continue to generate funds. Yes there is some improvement during gerrard’s tenure. The European games will be generating extra income.

but if Celtic win the league again....

[Mysterion]

6 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

I hope I'm right in thinking that their stadium is in a state of disrepair and they haven't got the funds to upgrade it.  Too busy tryig to keep up with their neighbours.

 

Hope they don't get any big transfer income.

Rangers have spent a lot of money in infrastructure (inc stadium improvements and refurbishment of Murray Park). The much fabled “bad roofs” where being worked on over the summer with some mobile cranes brought in whilst work took place.

[Ex member of the SaS]

For me the simple question as to holding company/club argument is:

 

Name the holding company Craig White used to buy Rangers from Murray.

 

The first mention of a holding company was when Charles Green bought the assets. The assets were bought from the LIQUIDATORS.

[Footballfirst]

10 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

For me the simple question as to holding company/club argument is:

 

Name the holding company Craig White used to buy Rangers from Murray.

 

The first mention of a holding company was when Charles Green bought the assets. The assets were bought from the LIQUIDATORS.

 

Wavetower Ltd., later renamed to "The Rangers FC Group Ltd." - Company Number 07380537

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

Just now, Ex member of the SaS said:

For me the simple question as to holding company/club argument is:

 

Name the holding company Craig White used to buy Rangers from Murray.

 

The first mention of a holding company was when Charles Green bought the assets. The assets were bought from the LIQUIDATORS.

See Football First's post above, but, it matters not whether or not Rangers had a holding company, what matters is that a holding company can only 'hold' another limited company, and definitely not an unincorporated football club. Therefor, for Rangers Football Club to have been held by a holding company, it had to be, itself, a limited company, so the 'holding company' argument put forward by the same club advocates is self-defeating.

[Ex member of the SaS]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

 

Wavetower Ltd., later renamed to "The Rangers FC Group Ltd." - Company Number 07380537

White didn't use wavetower to by Sevco, He paid £1 to Murray.

[Lovecraft]

9 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

White didn't use wavetower to by Sevco, He paid £1 to Murray.

 

 

Via Wavetower.

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/craig-whyte-rangers-takeover-firm-12694010

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/13292829

Edited October 29, 2019 by Lovecraft

[Ex member of the SaS]

8 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 

 

Via Wavetower.

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/craig-whyte-rangers-takeover-firm-12694010

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/13292829

White used Wavetower after the purchase.

[Lovecraft]

46 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

White used Wavetower after the purchase.

[Footballfirst]

2 hours ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

White used Wavetower after the purchase.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Footballfirst

[Don Dan]

29 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

woooooosh! 

 

3 hours ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

White didn't use wavetower to by Sevco, He paid £1 to Murray.

The named men were present at the agreement meeting but the transaction went as per FF post quoted herewith.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Dannie Boy

[Beast Boy]

I like it when the same person appears under different usernames and says the same thing over and over again. 😄

Edited October 29, 2019 by Icon of Symmetry

[Beast Boy]

Whatever happened to the Submarine guy and Trigger’s Broom? 😄

[Ex member of the SaS]

Ok you win that one but I draw your attention to the line:

 

The Rangers football club PLC is a public limited company in Scotland.

 

That kind blows out the water your assertion they didn't die and it was the holding company.

[Footballfirst]

BBC Sport Scotland @BBCSportScot

Rangers announce a loss of £11.3m for the year ending 30 June 2019, with turnover up by 63% to £53.2m.

----------------------------------

OUCH!

 

https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-international-football-club-annual-results-5/

Edited November 1, 2019 by Footballfirst

[jamboy1982]

On 30/10/2019 at 09:56, Ex member of the SaS said:

Ok you win that one but I draw your attention to the line:

 

The Rangers football club PLC is a public limited company in Scotland.

 

That kind blows out the water your assertion they didn't die and it was the holding company.

It died. Just admit it. Then scuttle off back to govan 

[John Findlay]

7 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

BBC Sport Scotland @BBCSportScot

Rangers announce a loss of £11.3m for the year ending 30 June 2019, with turnover up by 63% to £53.2m.

----------------------------------

OUCH!

 

https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-international-football-club-annual-results-5/

Not a peep from the msm

[Mikey1874]

That is an improvement. 

[Mikey1874]

2 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Not a peep from the msm

 

Apart from the story you quoted 

 

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/50270159

Edited November 1, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Footballfirst]

I'm heading out shortly but here is a snippet from their forecast funding requirement.

 

At the time of preparation, the forecast identified that the Group would require £10.0m by way of debt or equity funding by the end of season 2019/2020 in order to meet its liabilities as they fall due. The first tranche of funding is required from investors in November 2019. However, the final amount required is dependent on future football performance, European football participation and player trading amongst other factors. The Board of Directors have discussed the Club’s forecast cash flow shortfall and have reached agreement with Laird Investments (Pty) Limited whereby it will provide additional loan facilities as necessary to meet shortfalls to the above requirements and any further amounts that may be required a result of variances to forecast cash flows. Further to this, Laird Investments (Pty) Limited have agreed to provide a £5m facility to October 2021.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Footballfirst

[Darren]

2 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Not a peep from the msm

 

The figures were released 45 minutes ago 

[John Findlay]

4 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

The figures were released 45 minutes ago 

And

[Mikey1874]

63% increase in turnover. 

 

It is the same pattern of overspending and generous loans. 

[Mikey1874]

While searching for stories

 

 

[sadj]

19 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

BBC Sport Scotland @BBCSportScot

Rangers announce a loss of £11.3m for the year ending 30 June 2019, with turnover up by 63% to £53.2m.

----------------------------------

OUCH!

 

https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-international-football-club-annual-results-5/

Does that include the initial loan conversion to shares thing they did to avoid having to buy the shares?

[Don Dan]

Running on empty again. Nothing changes and no lessons learnt. They need £5m right now to tide them over with a long payback time till 2021. 

[Darren]

8 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

And

 

In that time several "MSM" organisations put up breaking news stories on it. More content will follow. So your assertion that there has not been a peep is baseless.

[IveSeenTheLight]

17 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I'm heading out shortly but here is a snippet from their forecast funding requirement.

 

At the time of preparation, the forecast identified that the Group would require £10.0m by way of debt or equity funding by the end of season 2019/2020 in order to meet its liabilities as they fall due. The first tranche of funding is required from investors in November 2019. However, the final amount required is dependent on future football performance, European football participation and player trading amongst other factors. The Board of Directors have discussed the Club’s forecast cash flow shortfall and have reached agreement with Laird Investments (Pty) Limited whereby it will provide additional loan facilities as necessary to meet shortfalls to the above requirements and any further amounts that may be required a result of variances to forecast cash flows. Further to this, Laird Investments (Pty) Limited have agreed to provide a £5m facility to October 2021.

always like reading your posts footballfirst.

 

Does this include the recent Sports Direct / SevCo lawsuit relating to the Hummel deal or could that be added as well?

[Japan Jambo]

MATERIAL UNCERTAINTY RELATED TO GOING CONCERN We draw attention to information in note 1 in the financial statements concerning the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern. In order to continue operations for the next 12 months the Group is dependent upon raising additional finance to cover projected cash shortfalls in season 2019/20. The precise level of funding required is uncertain as it is inherently dependent on a number of key variables, including the achievement of forecast football performance and player trading. As stated in note 1 the risk that key cash flows are not achieved as forecast , along with the absence of a binding debt facility for any shortfalls, indicate that a material uncertainty exists that may cast significant doubt on the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern. Our opinion is not modified in respect of this matter.

 

- lifted from the auditors report...

[Deevers]

9 minutes ago, Jap Jambo said:

MATERIAL UNCERTAINTY RELATED TO GOING CONCERN We draw attention to information in note 1 in the financial statements concerning the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern. In order to continue operations for the next 12 months the Group is dependent upon raising additional finance to cover projected cash shortfalls in season 2019/20. The precise level of funding required is uncertain as it is inherently dependent on a number of key variables, including the achievement of forecast football performance and player trading. As stated in note 1 the risk that key cash flows are not achieved as forecast , along with the absence of a binding debt facility for any shortfalls, indicate that a material uncertainty exists that may cast significant doubt on the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern. Our opinion is not modified in respect of this matter.

 

- lifted from the auditors report...

All of which will be totally ignored by our MSM, who will all once again claim to be shocked and horrified when they go tits up again.