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Maroon Sailor

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Premier League:

AFC Bournemouth - Vitality Stadium - 11,464 Capacity

Burnley - Turf Moor - 21,401 Capacity

Watford - Vicarage Road - 21,483 Capacity

 

Championship:

Rotherham - New York Stadium - 12,021 Capacity

Brentford - Griffin Park - 12,763 Capacity

Queen's Park Rangers - Loftus Road - 18,489 Capacity

 

League One:

Ten sides have capacities of less than 11,000 with some of them closer to 5k.

 

How is any of that ever going to be sustainable in the medium term, let alone the long term?

 

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2 minutes ago, jambostuart said:

 

Paragraph from same article:

 

Darlington FC is another club that was saved by supporters when in 2012 the club went into administration for the third time in its history. Since then it's been fan-owned.

 

Guess we are just not as “proud” a club as Darlington. I think people really need to come to the realisation that the English media don’t give two shiny shites about Scottish football outside of the OF. It’s probably a good thing though really... **** having people watching Jim White count down the seconds to our demise like a Komodo Dragon waiting on a wounded buffalo to collapse on its arse.

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shaun.lawson
4 minutes ago, jambostuart said:

 

I'm in the minority and usually agree with your posts but can't agree here. Sunderland, Leeds and Newcastle are all suffering from severe mismanagement, not geography. And Nottingham are not that big, even when they were winning trophies they were unfashionable (a little like Leicester in the modern game). 

 

Good players go to all sorts of places in England and the Midlands makes up a large proportion of the PL with Wolves, Villa, and as I mentioned, Leicester... 

 

It has feck all to do with where in England they are based, very unlike Scotland.

 

It has plenty to do with it. West Ham could've gone bust a decade ago after the crash hit Iceland harder than anyone. Look at them now. They're in London, so they attracted new owners, had a new stadium built for them at the taxpayer's expense (!), and constantly attract players drawn to the bright lights and big city. 

 

The never-ending silverware drought in English football's traditional hotbed of the north-east is not a coincidence. It's a result of the north-east being more economically deprived than anywhere else. Sunderland, for example, paid massively over the odds on mercenaries for God knows how long - precisely because good players just won't go there. 

 

Loads of clubs are mismanaged all the time, including my English one not so long ago. As much as anything else, location determines whether they'll rebound from that mismanagement (remember Southampton a decade ago? Look at them now), or pay the consequences for decades.

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2 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

Darlington couldn't agree a CVA after that 3rd admin, were expelled from the League, and reformed in 2012 as Darlington 1883. 

 

Sorry. I stand corrected. I was going by the ever useful Wiki but looking at an old BBC article, you're right. Apologies again

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shaun.lawson
1 minute ago, Cade said:

Premier League:

AFC Bournemouth - Vitality Stadium - 11,464 Capacity

Burnley - Turf Moor - 21,401 Capacity

Watford - Vicarage Road - 21,483 Capacity

 

Championship:

Rotherham - New York Stadium - 12,021 Capacity

Brentford - Griffin Park - 12,763 Capacity

Queen's Park Rangers - Loftus Road - 18,489 Capacity

 

League One:

Ten sides have capacities of less than 11,000 with some of them closer to 5k.

 

How is any of that ever going to be sustainable in the medium term, let alone the long term?

 

 

Bournemouth I've already mentioned. I don't see how they don't sink like a stone when they get relegated. Watford are sustainable as long as the Pozzo family remain involved: Udinese fans are furious at how much they've prioritised the Hornets, but their model works, somehow. Burnley are just incredibly well run, and will presumably be fine once their current success ends.

 

QPR? Think they're bigger than they are, overspent like crazy, and are looking at a new 30,000 stadium - because they can't do anything from the confines of Loftus Road. Brentford? Can't see it lasting - but a new 17250 stadium is under construction, and will be shared with London Irish. Rotherham? A yo-yo Championship/League 1 club, though more the latter than the former (whereas Barnsley are more the former than the latter).

 

League 1? Not such a big issue, despite current events. There's two or three clubs in League 1 whose 'natural' level is higher (Sunderland's, two levels higher) - but then there's a huge drop-off. Most of the clubs in the bottom two tiers accept that they can't sustain themselves in the Championship.

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8 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

It has plenty to do with it. West Ham could've gone bust a decade ago after the crash hit Iceland harder than anyone. Look at them now. They're in London, so they attracted new owners, had a new stadium built for them at the taxpayer's expense (!), and constantly attract players drawn to the bright lights and big city. 

 

The never-ending silverware drought in English football's traditional hotbed of the north-east is not a coincidence. It's a result of the north-east being more economically deprived than anywhere else. Sunderland, for example, paid massively over the odds on mercenaries for God knows how long - precisely because good players just won't go there. 

 

Loads of clubs are mismanaged all the time, including my English one not so long ago. As much as anything else, location determines whether they'll rebound from that mismanagement (remember Southampton a decade ago? Look at them now), or pay the consequences for decades.

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Location certainly can be an advantage, I will never dispute that, but I don't think it has as much of an impact as you are saying it does. It's the money that is chucked at football and hoovered up by greedy owners which is the issue, which isn't exclusive to where the club is based. A well ran Newcastle would easily win a trophy. 

Edited by jambostuart
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I have massive sympathy with the real fans of both clubs ....... it could have been us ..... and very nearly was ....

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Maroon Sailor
9 minutes ago, jambostuart said:

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Location certainly can be an advantage, I will never dispute that, but I don't think it has as much of an impact as you are saying it does. It's the money that is chucked at football and hoovered up by greedy owners which is the issue, which isn't exclusive to where the club is based. A well ran Newcastle would easily win a trophy. 

 

Read the other day that Newcastle's net spend since Ashley took over 12 years ago is £77m

 

God knows how much he has raked in himself during that period

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Bury Expelled from the EFL

Bolton have been given 14 day extension.

 

Edited by Dannie Boy
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1 minute ago, Zlatanable said:

The EFL Board met earlier this evening and, after a long and detailed discussion, determined that Bury FC’s membership of the English Football League be withdrawn after the deadline passed at 5pm today (Tuesday 27 August) without a successful resolution.

Despite repeated requests to its owner Mr Dale over a sustained period of time, the necessary evidence in respect of how the Club would meet its financial commitments, has simply not been provided and, as a result, attentions turned to securing new ownership at the Club.

At its meeting on 24 August 2019, the Board agreed a short extension to 5pm today (Tuesday 27 August) to enable Mr Dale and the Club to explore the possibility of a proposed sale with C&N Sporting Risk Limited, with Mr Dale having accepted their offer. Following due diligence, C&N Sporting Risk Limited opted not to pursue its interest.  

Therefore, having fully considered all available options, including a number of late expressions of interest provided to the EFL, the EFL Board has unanimously determined with enormous regret that Bury’s membership be withdrawn.

The EFL Board had maintained that there could be no further suspensions to the fixture list and that these ongoing concerns and the integrity of the competition were a significant factor in the decision.

Recent events have highlighted how decisions taken at Bury FC over the last few seasons have caused the Club and individuals close to it significant financial distress and there are a number of matters which, in our view, will require further investigation.

League One will now comprise of 23 Clubs for the remainder of the campaign and relegation places in the division reduced to three, which will result in a full complement of 24 Clubs in 2020/21. A discussion will take place with EFL Clubs on the consequential impact in League Two when Clubs next meet in September 2019.

Debbie Jevans CBE, EFL Executive Chair, said: “Today is undoubtedly one of the darkest days in the League’s recent history. The EFL has worked determinedly and tirelessly to avoid this outcome and it is with a heavy heart that this situation has been forced upon us.

“The EFL has to place the integrity of our competitions at the heart of every decision we make, and we simply cannot allow this unacceptable situation to continue or countenance the prospect of postponing further fixtures.

“I understand this will be a deeply upsetting and devastating time for Bury’s players, staff, supporters and the wider community. There is no doubt today’s news will be felt across the entire football family.

“No one wanted to be in this position but following repeated missed deadlines, the suspension of five League fixtures, in addition to not receiving the evidence we required in regard to financial commitments and a possible takeover not materialising; the EFL Board has been forced to take the most difficult of decisions.”

 

 

https://www.efl.com/news/2019/august/bury-fc-membership-of-the-league-withdrawn/

 

 

Absolutely gutted for the fans. One of the oldest clubs in football out of the league. Horrible stuff. 

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1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Even by the EFL's non-existent standards, :cornette:

 

The broader points Conn makes are spot on too.

 

1. Football is only a reflection of broader society; and especially, broader economic attitudes. The UK's Greed Is Good vulture capitalism, which is about to intensify far more if No Deal happens, rewards complete shysters (Exhibit A: the Prime Minister himself) and screws everyone else. 

 

2. Have a look at the Premier League right now. No Sunderland or Middlesbrough. No Leeds or Sheffield Wednesday. No Nottingham Forest or Derby. But instead, Brighton, Bournemouth, Palace, Watford and Norwich. Four of those clubs' 'natural' level is the Championship; Bournemouth's is below even that.

 

But what do those five clubs have in common? They're all in the south - and bit by bit, at all levels except among the very elite, English football's coming to reflect the chronic socioeconomic neglect of the north. It's easy to laugh at the likes of Newcastle as they lurch from one crisis to the next - but the biggest problem they face in attracting either good players or rich investors is geography. And that's true for a whole bunch of other big city clubs outside the south and south-east.

 

 

 

Edited by DesertDawg
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jamboinglasgow
4 minutes ago, Armageddon said:

Sobering and shows how vital the work was to save us.

 

Yup, how important that Hearts will be under fan ownership. We stop the club being in the hands of charlatans and crooks.

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Can't argue with your points Shaun but do you think that the EFL and other authorities are complicit in this nonsense in the same way that the SPL can't deal with sectarianism but Uefa can?

 

 

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Sexton Hardcastle

The only funny thing coming from this is rangers fans on twitter claiming how they saved their club.

 

The cheek.

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3 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

So what happens next? 

Is the whole thing going to disappear, and the ground gets demolished for flats and stuff. Or what

 

Since the previous owner, who sold the club for £1 (sound familiar?) was a "property developer specialising in rented student flats" then, almost certainly, yes.

 

Look out for an asset purchaser with offshore financial links.

 

  

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Unknown user
1 hour ago, Zlatanable said:

The EFL Board met earlier this evening and, after a long and detailed discussion, determined that Bury FC’s membership of the English Football League be withdrawn after the deadline passed at 5pm today (Tuesday 27 August) without a successful resolution.

Despite repeated requests to its owner Mr Dale over a sustained period of time, the necessary evidence in respect of how the Club would meet its financial commitments, has simply not been provided and, as a result, attentions turned to securing new ownership at the Club.

At its meeting on 24 August 2019, the Board agreed a short extension to 5pm today (Tuesday 27 August) to enable Mr Dale and the Club to explore the possibility of a proposed sale with C&N Sporting Risk Limited, with Mr Dale having accepted their offer. Following due diligence, C&N Sporting Risk Limited opted not to pursue its interest.  

Therefore, having fully considered all available options, including a number of late expressions of interest provided to the EFL, the EFL Board has unanimously determined with enormous regret that Bury’s membership be withdrawn.

The EFL Board had maintained that there could be no further suspensions to the fixture list and that these ongoing concerns and the integrity of the competition were a significant factor in the decision.

Recent events have highlighted how decisions taken at Bury FC over the last few seasons have caused the Club and individuals close to it significant financial distress and there are a number of matters which, in our view, will require further investigation.

League One will now comprise of 23 Clubs for the remainder of the campaign and relegation places in the division reduced to three, which will result in a full complement of 24 Clubs in 2020/21. A discussion will take place with EFL Clubs on the consequential impact in League Two when Clubs next meet in September 2019.

Debbie Jevans CBE, EFL Executive Chair, said: “Today is undoubtedly one of the darkest days in the League’s recent history. The EFL has worked determinedly and tirelessly to avoid this outcome and it is with a heavy heart that this situation has been forced upon us.

“The EFL has to place the integrity of our competitions at the heart of every decision we make, and we simply cannot allow this unacceptable situation to continue or countenance the prospect of postponing further fixtures.

“I understand this will be a deeply upsetting and devastating time for Bury’s players, staff, supporters and the wider community. There is no doubt today’s news will be felt across the entire football family.

“No one wanted to be in this position but following repeated missed deadlines, the suspension of five League fixtures, in addition to not receiving the evidence we required in regard to financial commitments and a possible takeover not materialising; the EFL Board has been forced to take the most difficult of decisions.”

 

 

https://www.efl.com/news/2019/august/bury-fc-membership-of-the-league-withdrawn/

 

Those poor *******s, that's awful. I'm sure we all remember how terrible our dark days were and the depth of fear we all had - it came true for these guys.

Sad day. 

 

 

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Hopefully they'll find a way to continue as a club and then re-apply for admission to a lower rung of the English football ladder next year.

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shaun.lawson
1 hour ago, DesertDawg said:

Can't argue with your points Shaun but do you think that the EFL and other authorities are complicit in this nonsense in the same way that the SPL can't deal with sectarianism but Uefa can?

 

 

 

Not exactly complicit - more just completely incompetent. (That doesn't make it OK, mind).

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1 hour ago, Zlatanable said:

So what happens next? 

Is the whole thing going to disappear, and the ground gets demolished for flats and stuff. Or what

 

Do they not just get to start again in League 2 and retain their history, or does it work differently in England?

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1 hour ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Yup, how important that Hearts will be under fan ownership. We stop the club being in the hands of charlatans and crooks.

 

Are you suggesting we are at the moment backed by charlatans and crooks or that others are. Or that the fans do or don't have same stereotype ?

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shaun.lawson
11 minutes ago, RobNox said:

 

Do they not just get to start again in League 2 and retain their history, or does it work differently in England?

 

Leeds were allowed to start again in the same division and retain their history. So, in 1986, were Middlesbrough. It's not different in England; history shows that it's worse.

 

Bury, though? Their only option now is to apply to join a league of some sort next summer. That won't be the National League Premier, or the National North. It'll be the Northern Premier League Division 1 at best. Level 8 - if they're lucky. Level 11 if they're not.

Edited by shaun.lawson
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Sad to hear Bury's fate. Its a long dark tunnel they may get lucky and go into a star placing not sure. Them fans be devastated all the work and money put in.

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4 minutes ago, AJAMBO said:

 

Are you suggesting we are at the moment backed by charlatans and crooks or that others are. Or that the fans do or don't have same stereotype ?

 

Are you suggesting we haven't been previously owned by charlatans and crooks?

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1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Leeds were allowed to start again in the same division and retain their history. So, in 1986, were Middlesbrough. It's not different in England; history shows that it's worse.

 

Bury, though? Their only option now is to apply to join a league of some sort next summer. That won't be the National League, or the National North. It'll be the Northern Premier League Division 1 at best. Level 8. 

Wow. Gutting

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1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

 

Are you suggesting we haven't been previously owned by charlatans and crooks?

 

Didn't even think on that choice.  I would have to say more than likely although I've no proof. 

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2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Leeds were allowed to start again in the same division and retain their history. So, in 1986, were Middlesbrough. It's not different in England; history shows that it's worse.

 

Bury, though? Their only option now is to apply to join a league of some sort next summer. That won't be the National League Premier, or the National North. It'll be the Northern Premier League Division 1 at best. Level 8 - if they're lucky.

 

Right, so it's more or less the same as in Scotland.  If you are a bigger club you get to pretend you didn't die, but smaller clubs can pretty much GTF. 

 

As long as Bury have a fan base, they will have a club.  I expect we'll see Bury Town or something similar emerge in the lower tiers as you suggest.

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2 hours ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Yup, how important that Hearts will be under fan ownership. We stop the club being in the hands of charlatans and crooks.

 

Exactly, and it's not just charlatans or crooks we protect ourselves from, it can be incompetence or misfortune.

 

For example, I don't think Chris Robinson was either a charlatan or a crook, but I do think he was incompetent, made poor decisions and led us to the brink of extinction.

 

Beyond Hearts, I look at Gretna as an example of where misfortune comes into play.  The owner who bankrolled them for years suddenly fell seriously ill and the rest of his family decided they were going to put a stop to their inheritance being spunked away.

 

Being fan owned should protect us from the risks associated with being owned by an individual or small group of individuals. We do though need to agree some abiding principles by which we'll govern the club, first and foremost in my opinion is that we adhere to the principle of always living within our means.

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shaun.lawson
57 minutes ago, RobNox said:

 

Right, so it's more or less the same as in Scotland.  If you are a bigger club you get to pretend you didn't die, but smaller clubs can pretty much GTF. 

 

As long as Bury have a fan base, they will have a club.  I expect we'll see Bury Town or something similar emerge in the lower tiers as you suggest.

 

Ah - but there already is a Bury Town. In a completely different part of the country:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_Town_F.C.

 

I get what you're saying and agree in large part. When Liverpool got into all sorts of trouble under Hicks and Gillett, the authorities bent over backwards to help them look for new owners. But then, when Hearts were in dire straits, we had the First Minister doing everything he could too.

 

The thing in Bury's case, though - and this is really, really unusual - is unlike the last two clubs who vanished from the league, Aldershot and Maidstone, they've not folded. They've not been liquidated. They've been kicked out because they're unable to play their games... and a 46-game league season, plus the playoffs and three Cup competitions, means it's too late to reschedule all the postponed matches.

 

That's why Bolton haven't been kicked out yet. They have played several matches, which buys them a couple of weeks' more time. Seems to me, those advocating Bury's case could quite reasonably argue that the first team could've just been mothballed for a season, before they resumed under new ownership in League 2 next year. But the unbelievable, disgusting terms around the mortgage on Gigg Lane probably put the kibosh on that.

 

Beyond that, no question, the EFL are going to come under huge scrutiny now. Especially if it happens to Bolton too.

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shaun.lawson
26 minutes ago, RobNox said:

 

Exactly, and it's not just charlatans or crooks we protect ourselves from, it can be incompetence or misfortune.

 

For example, I don't think Chris Robinson was either a charlatan or a crook, but I do think he was incompetent, made poor decisions and led us to the brink of extinction.

 

Beyond Hearts, I look at Gretna as an example of where misfortune comes into play.  The owner who bankrolled them for years suddenly fell seriously ill and the rest of his family decided they were going to put a stop to their inheritance being spunked away.

 

Being fan owned should protect us from the risks associated with being owned by an individual or small group of individuals. We do though need to agree some abiding principles by which we'll govern the club, first and foremost in my opinion is that we adhere to the principle of always living within our means.

 

Excellent post. Chris Robinson was an arrogant, lying *******, with about as much foresight as a gnat. But where he really, really went wrong was in being one of those fans - of whom there are many of all clubs - whose eyes were much too big for his stomach.

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Allowayjambo1874
3 hours ago, DesertDawg said:

Can't argue with your points Shaun but do you think that the EFL and other authorities are complicit in this nonsense in the same way that the SPL can't deal with sectarianism but Uefa can?

 

 

The EFL are 100% complicit in allowing this to occur. The financial Fair Play rules were brought in by UEFA to stop this from happening but the English have completely ignored them and allowed all sorts of loopholes to be utilised by their clubs and the debt below the EPL is staggering.

About 75% of Championship clubs wages to turnover is more than 100% and in league one at least 5-6 are doing the same. How on earth can that be sustainable and be allowed to continue? The English league however allow it. I am sure Bury were paying out 135% of their turnover on wages, which is just mental.

A well run club in England is one that is spending 85% of it's turnover on wages, in any other industry that would be a suicidal business plan.

Thank goodness the Scottish clubs (bar one) have got their house in order and now most have a wages to turnover of about 65% and most are relatively stable.

 

This article in The telegraph lays the figures re debt/wages in stark terms: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/08/20/experts-warned-efl-two-years-ago-clubs-like-bolton-bury-faced/

 

And here is one that shows how the Championship clubs are gambling heavily to get the promised land http://financialfootballnews.com/championship-2018-finances-wages/

 

Edited by Allowayjambo1874
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1 hour ago, Tommy Brown said:

Bury have not been liquidated............yet.

 

They have lost their EFL membership, though.

 

Have I got thisright.

 

Yeah thats right but only a matter of time now

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The Treasurer
9 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

It has plenty to do with it. West Ham could've gone bust a decade ago after the crash hit Iceland harder than anyone. Look at them now. They're in London, so they attracted new owners, had a new stadium built for them at the taxpayer's expense (!), and constantly attract players drawn to the bright lights and big city. 

 

The never-ending silverware drought in English football's traditional hotbed of the north-east is not a coincidence. It's a result of the north-east being more economically deprived than anywhere else. Sunderland, for example, paid massively over the odds on mercenaries for God knows how long - precisely because good players just won't go there. 

 

Loads of clubs are mismanaged all the time, including my English one not so long ago. As much as anything else, location determines whether they'll rebound from that mismanagement (remember Southampton a decade ago? Look at them now), or pay the consequences for decades.

Not for the first time you are talking out your arse.

WHU did not have a stadium built for them, they took on the white elephant Olympic Stadium when no-one else wanted to (apart from Orient).

Clubs in the south/south east may have an advantage, location wise, over clubs further north, but overseas players will go wherever they are offered the best deal.

 

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John Findlay

Maybe Charlie's Green can buy their history. Oh hang on it's the EFL and FA he would have to deal with. Not the rollover and tickle our tummies SPFLand SFA.

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SectionDJambo

We know as well as anyone that all the fans want to do is go along to support their team. Sustainability before gambling on vanity projects.  It’s something the owners of some clubs don’t seem to appreciate. 

Fans who support Bury instead of United or City have my respect. At least they didn’t have some local morons trying to hasten their demise.

I hope they can still be saved, financially, and climb back into the league.

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Maroon Sailor

Bury was were it all started for Terry McDermott. These clubs are not only part of the community but offer a great platform for players to start their careers and develop as players

 

Sadly the Premier League is like winning the lottery for parasites who have no interest in the history and meaning of football clubs.

 

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upgotheheads

We could have been here and it was so close.

 

Bryan Jackson was on Good Morning Scotland today and described the Hearts receivership as the hardest he dealt with.

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The Treasurer

I think some of their nearer neighbours whose weekly wage bill would have saved them were in a better position to "reach out"

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Maroon Sailor

Looks like G.Neville is getting stick

 

At least his Mum was there at their darkest hour

 

Quoted tweet is unavailable so must have been pretty nasty

 

Strike that the arsehole deleted it

 

 

 

 

Edited by Maroon Sailor
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afanderson33
11 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

I think some of their nearer neighbours whose weekly wage bill would have saved them were in a better position to "reach out"


Man City gave them a training ground for free

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The Treasurer
5 minutes ago, afanderson33 said:


Man City gave them a training ground for free

Bit pointless when they had nothing to train for

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Bad timing for Callum Booth, left Dundee United on the 24th July with 12 months left on his contract to chase a very very decent wage.

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afanderson33
9 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

Bit pointless when they had nothing to train for


They gave them it like 5 years ago 

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17 hours ago, Jack Torrance said:

BBC News - Bolton and Bury: A message from a football club that bounced back
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-49479847

 

The last two paragraphs 

:greggy:


For those who didn't click through to the BBC article it had examples of several clubs that had gone into liquidation and a factual recounting of the Rangers demise and subsequent rebirth through Sevco.

If you look at the same article now, however, you'll see that history has been re-writted to remove ANY reference to Rangers as a liquidated club. Astonishing given they ar surely THE most high profile recent liquidation in British football.

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