Interesting Blog on English Clubs attitude to Scottish Players Transfer Value

[Martin_T]

https://www.football365.com/news/arsenals-tierney-bid-a-symptom-of-anti-scottish-bigotry

 

Quite an interesting read. I think the point that is maybe missed that English clubs are all too aware at the lack of money in the Scottish game and thus low ball in that knowledge.

[.hmfc.]

Pretty much spot on, good read

[jamboinglasgow]

16 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

https://www.football365.com/news/arsenals-tierney-bid-a-symptom-of-anti-scottish-bigotry

 

Quite an interesting read. I think the point that is maybe missed that English clubs are all too aware at the lack of money in the Scottish game and thus low ball in that knowledge.

 

Yup, think it goes too heavily on the anti-Scottishness and not on what you say that Scottish clubs in the past being too easy to sell at low prices, but also the fact that selling English players in the Premier league, due to the home grown rule pushes them up to a huge premium which mixed with large wealth means these clubs can hold out for huge sums.

[Cruyff Turn]

Fantastic article, spot on and well written.

 

 

[Ricardo Shillyshally]

A bit too flowery for my liking. I'd be surprised if the author wasn't sitting naked in front of the mirror whilst writing it.

[stan]

Way too emotional and completely dependent upon his overt political prejudices in place of any real analysis. Strip that away and there might be something to write about. He's not presented any objective evidence to come to the immature conclusion the English Premier League is run by anti Scottish bigots.

 

Results like Killie's are why the league is (unfairly) considered poor. Proven players on long contracts are seen as worth paying money for. 

 

'A land of poets and poems' (very Hibsesque) whose football is untainted by nasty.capitalist predators ffs, has he never heard of the Old Firms self interest and contempt for their own league?

😂

[Mr Rabbit]

I like the article and some good points however it is written from a Scottish bias.

 

I lived down in England for 5 years and there’s definitely an arrogance of the premier league and the championship, to a lesser extent.

 

Most of my friends down there point to examples like Buaben being poor for Carlisle and then being a regular for us or players like May/ Goodwillie/ Walker going down south and failing. 

 

The truth is somewhere in the middle for me. The examples in the article are correct but there’s also plenty who have failed down south too. Ultimately for me the value of our players should be higher than it is but I don’t believe down south should be flooding our market for the vast amount of quality because I don’t believe it’s there.

[Hansel]

31 minutes ago, Ricardo Shillyshally said:

A bit too flowery for my liking. I'd be surprised if the author wasn't sitting naked in front of the mirror whilst writing it.

God, I hope so

[Tommy Brown]

48 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Fantastic article, spot on and well written.

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, Ricardo Shillyshally said:

A bit too flowery for my liking. I'd be surprised if the author wasn't sitting naked in front of the mirror whilst writing it.

Not read it yet?

Was it written in a Norfolk bedsit done up it in South American style.

[Byyy The Light]

2 hours ago, Martin_T said:

https://www.football365.com/news/arsenals-tierney-bid-a-symptom-of-anti-scottish-bigotry

 

Quite an interesting read. I think the point that is maybe missed that English clubs are all too aware at the lack of money in the Scottish game and thus low ball in that knowledge.

 

I got the impression it was written by a bitter Celtic fan. 

 

Which is ironic as they wouldn’t even pay as much as Aston Villa for McGinn.

 

It also conveniently leaves out the fact that Scottish players get paid buttons compared with down there so it’s easy to disrupt players and get them to agitate for a move on the cheap.

 

A tactic the Old Firm have used for as long as I’ve followed Scottish football so I’ve zero sympathy. 

[jambostuart]

1 hour ago, Mr Rabbit said:

I like the article and some good points however it is written from a Scottish bias.

 

I lived down in England for 5 years and there’s definitely an arrogance of the premier league and the championship, to a lesser extent.

 

Most of my friends down there point to examples like Buaben being poor for Carlisle and then being a regular for us or players like May/ Goodwillie/ Walker going down south and failing. 

 

The truth is somewhere in the middle for me. The examples in the article are correct but there’s also plenty who have failed down south too. Ultimately for me the value of our players should be higher than it is but I don’t believe down south should be flooding our market for the vast amount of quality because I don’t believe it’s there.

 

Agreed. It's a good article and makes some valid observation but definitely written with a firm chip on the shoulder and a political angle that lends it no credence.

 

I think the real reason lies with Scottish clubs' finances. One of the few good things Romanov (and latterly Budge with the Sow deal but this wasn't to England so not as relevant) did for Hearts is show that when we are not an actively selling club to stay afloat, we can have a say at the negotiating table. Gordon's transfer fee is clear evidence of that, however it is very rare a Scottish club finds themselves in that position (Celtic aside and look at how they can reject £25 million for Tierney).

 

If Tierney was a Hearts player with the same calibre of skill we'd have been offered and accepted around £6/7 mill I think.

 

There's no political agenda to it, it's simply English clubs know the state of finances in the Scottish leagues and simply won't pay more than what they need to, to buy the player they want. The actual amount of players going down South has probably increased as less heads are being turned West to the OF but we're just not seeing the fees because clubs aren't in a position to command them
 

This is why sell on fees are so important for Scottish clubs and Paterson did us a great turn including one in his Cardiff contract, and as much as I hate to say it, Hibs will pocket a small fortune for McGinn if he moves on. 

[pablo]

We should be measuring ourselves against the transfer fees commanded by young players leaving Serbia,  Croatia,  Austria,  Bulgaria or wherever. Their players may join any bigger European League, not just England. We limit ourselves so much that way.

 

The article itself is grievance driven crap that doesn't offer a single solution. 

 

 

 

[Saint Jambo]

If it is anti-Scottish bias on the part of English teams, should there not be a queue of teams from other major leagues lining up to buy these bargains that exist in Scottish football.

 

The point about Andrew Robertson going between English teams for £8m rather undermines the argument and completely contradicts the later example about McGinn.

 

[Locky]

I get what the writer is trying to do, but the examples he gives are poorly executed. 

 

1. John McGinn- Aston Villa offered what Hibs wanted. Hibs named a price amid interest from Celtic. The fact Celtic didn't want to cough that up for him is a far bigger problem as to how they value players in Scotland, rather than Aston Villa who gave Hibs what they asked for. Then again, he had a great season at Villa, but just because in hindsight he was cut out for the Championship, does that mean he should have been signed for 10x that amount? He spent all bar one season of his career up here playing in the bottom 6 of the Premiership and Scottish Championship.

 

2. Kieran Tierney - even with a structured deal, if Arsenal really were valuing Tierney at £25 million, it'd be madness not to take it, and it would be even more mad to value him much more than that. Robertson is twice the player Tierney is, and was signed by Liverpool for a lot less than Tierney's valuation. 

 

From a business aspect, it just doesn't make sense for clubs to throw stupid money at Scottish teams for players who are making a huge leap in standards. For me, a bigger problem is the fact that clubs massively overvalue Celtic and Rangers players when they play in the same league against the same teams as the rest of us, albeit these players might have European experience.

 

And for anyone who thinks I'm just Celtic bashing, not that it should matter, I don't believe anyone in the Scottish Premiership is worth any of the figures they're quoted at. Take our Souttar. £5 million seems to be our valuation, I'd be astonished if we got more than £3 million and a sell on fee.

[Kiwidoug]

For me, this is where AB and the FoH have put us in a strong position.  We are not rich but by the same token, we don't have to sell and no one behind the scenes is squirreling away our money.

 

I believe the club will put a fair value on players, say £4 to 5m for Souttar.  Any club which comes in with a derisory offer will be shown the door.

And as for players earning up to £1m per week, don't get me started.

 

If a good player holds us to ransom by refusing to extend his contract, just accept it as part of football life these days and wish him all the worst when he leaves.

[Ricardo Shillyshally]

7 hours ago, Tommy Brown said:

 

Not read it yet?

Was it written in a Norfolk bedsit done up it in South American style.

No idea, but perhaps that's revealed in the book he's writing and happens to promote in the article.

 

Whilst there are some truths in the article, the use of the word "bigotry" in the headline is just ridiculous. 

 

 

[jamboozy]

Good base point to the article but the author allows sentiment to get in the way.

from a personal pov, there's a pecking order, the the Premiership treat Scottish football with disdain & arrogance then the OF treat other Scottish clubs the same way😳They can aw feck off, IMO.

Edited July 24, 2019 by jamboozy

[Bull's-eye]

Plenty hypocrites on here as expected. 

 

The same posters criticising an article that use the phrase "eye bleeding" and call our players "Shit" and plenty more abuse trotted out on a regular basis.

 

If Scottish Football is deemed to be inferior then most of that narrative comes from social media outlets like this one. 

 

 

[Peebo]

Overall, a poor article. Some fair points, but the bigotry accusation (even if tongue in cheek, which I’m not sure it is) is laughable. The standard is Scottish football is currently absolutely woeful. Worst it’s been in decades. It really doesn’t take much to stand out. 

 

Also seems to overlook the fact that players can improve over time, and sometimes exponentially as a result of playing at a higher standard. John McGinn worth £28 million at this time last year?!? 🤣🤣🤣

[Peebo]

1 hour ago, jamboozy said:

Good base point to the article but the author allows sentiment to get in the way.

from a personal pov, there's a pecking order, the the Premiership treat Scottish football with disdain & arrogance then the OF treat other Scottish clubs the same way😳They can aw feck off, IMO.

Personally don’t see it as disdain or arrogance. Just simple economics and finance. 

[Brighton Jambo]

In surprised some previous posters are so positive about that article.  That is a poorly written, overly dramatic. hugely biased  piece that clearly carries political undertones.  .

 

Its a missed opportunity as the topic is worthy of genuine discussion.  

 

I agree with an earlier poster who said that if an anti Scottish bias was an English thing then clubs from other counties would be snapping up all these top players.  Also I find it ironic that so many posters on here can’t slam the EPL quick enough for having foreign owners and managers yet this article claims it’s the English being biased.  Can’t be both! 

[Blackie the Cat]

John Nicholson is a bitter SNP politician who supports Celtic.

No need to read any more into his twisted interpretation of Scottish football.

[grumpy rebus]

Like a lot of you, I felt it made a few decent points but he lost it by being overtly political and unbalanced. (Although, in saying that, he appeared to have a chip on each shoulder). I would say it is largely an economic issue. Taking his example of Tierney, why offer £50M when you can probably get him for around £25M? 

[jamboozy]

57 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Personally don’t see it as disdain or arrogance. Just simple economics and finance. 

Probably Peebo, but doesn't make it right when clubs are being ripped off, anyhow, there's not much most of us can do about it as everyday Scottish football fans.

[Boris]

I think the author doesn't understand how markets work.

 

English clubs selling to one and other will always pay inflated fees, as that's the way the market is there, due to the amount of money swilling around.

 

E.g. Arsenal want to buy a player from Derby.  Derby charge £Xm as they know to replace him with someone from, say, Blackburn, it will cost them £Ym.

 

Etc etc etc

 

Scotland is a footballing backwater, by comparison.  That doesn't mean it is fair, or indeed right, that English clubs can make lower bids, when compared to similar talents from English clubs, it's just the way the market is.

 

Solutions?  Well, tbf, Celtic have held out pretty well regards Tierney.  Fair play to them.  They are in the lucky position to be able to do so.  But not every (indeed any?) Scottish club would be able to do so.  You can only sell a player for what someone is prepared to pay  - maybe with Robertson at Liverpool and McGinn at Villa (we shall see how he copes in the Premiership!) you may see eyes glancing north of the border again, as there is undoubtedly talent in Scotland,

 

I can't help feel though, that the way we are set up in Scotland, the OF sycophancy, their ubiquity on the TV coverage, does nothing to actually enhance the reputation of our game, so no wonder no one decides to really look into what is on offer.

 

 

[Peebo]

20 minutes ago, jamboozy said:

Probably Peebo, but doesn't make it right when clubs are being ripped off, anyhow, there's not much most of us can do about it as everyday Scottish football fans.

Not sure it is a case of being ripped off, just simply up to clubs to offer and accept whatever bids they want. Of course the selling  club’s resources play a role in the level of pressure to sell.

 

In terms of being ripped off, could a Hearts (for example) realistically claim John Souttar (for example) is worth £20million (for example) while paying him £2k a week (for example)? All sorts of things go into a players market value, including agreements between players and club around potential transfers.

 

As for McGinn, if Hibs did receive £2.79M at the time of the deal, but then he moves on for many multiples, they will apparently receive a big cut. Thus the price received could turn out to be many millions more than £2.79M. Would Hibs then have been ripped off? In any case, it was their decision to sell (or perhaps to agree to a contractual obligations to sell). Sell-on and release clauses are all part of such deals and contracts these days, so risk and reward being shared. 

[SE16 3LN]

Its Capitalism stupid

[jamboozy]

55 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Not sure it is a case of being ripped off, just simply up to clubs to offer and accept whatever bids they want. Of course the selling  club’s resources play a role in the level of pressure to sell.

 

In terms of being ripped off, could a Hearts (for example) realistically claim John Souttar (for example) is worth £20million (for example) while paying him £2k a week (for example)? All sorts of things go into a players market value, including agreements between players and club around potential transfers.

 

As for McGinn, if Hibs did receive £2.79M at the time of the deal, but then he moves on for many multiples, they will apparently receive a big cut. Thus the price received could turn out to be many millions more than £2.79M. Would Hibs then have been ripped off? In any case, it was their decision to sell (or perhaps to agree to a contractual obligations to sell). Sell-on and release clauses are all part of such deals and contracts these days, so risk and reward being shared. 

Thanks for explaining Peebo, especially the sell-on part.👍

[busby1985]

A very good read and some great points made. Only thing I’d have liked the article to mention was the part the old firm play in doing the very same thing to other Scottish teams. He used John McGinn but failed to mention that Celtic, the champions and richest side in Scotland, where trying to low ball and “pre contract” McGinn rather than pay the £3million asking price. Rangers do the same as we all know. He also ignored the fact that Sky/talk sport/BBC north and south of the border and our very own written press do nothing to help problem. 

[Tokyo Drifter]

"He doesn’t eat macaroni pies laced with heroin while singing songs by the Proclaimers, after all".

 

Does the author know that for a fact?

[Peebo]

2 hours ago, busby1985 said:

A very good read and some great points made. Only thing I’d have liked the article to mention was the part the old firm play in doing the very same thing to other Scottish teams. He used John McGinn but failed to mention that Celtic, the champions and richest side in Scotland, where trying to low ball and “pre contract” McGinn rather than pay the £3million asking price. Rangers do the same as we all know. He also ignored the fact that Sky/talk sport/BBC north and south of the border and our very own written press do nothing to help problem. 

For me the case of McGinn and Celtic’s involvement rather weakens his argument. They would have been more familiar with the player than any English club yet did not seem to think it worth outbidding the eventual English buyer. 

 

The bottom line is every buying club will try to minimise the price they pay for any given player and the selling club will try to maximise the same. There is no “bigotry” involved. Is the market value of Scottish league players depressed by the piss-poor standard of our league? Absolutely.

[Fly the Saltire]

7 hours ago, Blackie the Cat said:

John Nicholson is a bitter SNP politician who supports Celtic.

No need to read any more into his twisted interpretation of Scottish football.

Your political bias is showing. The former MP John Nicholson has no interest in football or Celtic .

It's the old chicken and egg situation Scottish football is getting ripped off by the UK TV companies so can't compete with English Championship on wages or overseas player recruitment.

Many promising players head south for higher wages and rot on the bench rather than developing in Scotland and commanding decent transfer fees

 

[jambostuart]

4 hours ago, Fly the Saltire said:

Your political bias is showing. The former MP John Nicholson has no interest in football or Celtic .

It's the old chicken and egg situation Scottish football is getting ripped off by the UK TV companies so can't compete with English Championship on wages or overseas player recruitment.

Many promising players head south for higher wages and rot on the bench rather than developing in Scotland and commanding decent transfer fees

 

 

There's an argument to say there's much more development to be had down South than there is up here. Either sit on Rangers' or Celtic's bench or even playing first team football there is a much lower glass ceiling in Scotland