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Labour party and anti-semitism


I P Knightley

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I P Knightley

Here's me hoping to get some clarification from the great and good of JKB.

 

The Labour party has got itself in a bit of a pickle over anti-semitism but i have no idea who said what to whom to make this all come about  

 

For all my days, I'd have associated the Labour party with a pro Palestinian stand point, arguing that the Pallies have a right to the land that'd had over many centuries. If I'm right in that,  then the other side of the coin is that Israeli folk shouldn't be encroaching on that land - which appears to be an argument between two nations, not essentially driven by religion. 

 

At no point have I seen or heard anything where a mouthpiece of the Labour party has come out criticising the Jewish faith or its followers. 

 

So how come they're being investigated for anti-semitism? 

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8 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

Here's me hoping to get some clarification from the great and good of JKB.

 

The Labour party has got itself in a bit of a pickle over anti-semitism but i have no idea who said what to whom to make this all come about  

 

For all my days, I'd have associated the Labour party with a pro Palestinian stand point, arguing that the Pallies have a right to the land that'd had over many centuries. If I'm right in that,  then the other side of the coin is that Israeli folk shouldn't be encroaching on that land - which appears to be an argument between two nations, not essentially driven by religion. 

 

At no point have I seen or heard anything where a mouthpiece of the Labour party has come out criticising the Jewish faith or its followers. 

 

So how come they're being investigated for anti-semitism? 

More Tory lies, propped up by the right-wing press and Red Tory sour grapes. Hating Israel, is hating Jews, apparently.

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I P Knightley
14 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

More Tory lies, propped up by the right-wing press and Red Tory sour grapes. Hating Israel, is hating Jews, apparently.

But surely someone's said or written something which has been used as evidence too get the investigation off the ground? I've not seen any details of such claims. 

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1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

I think the issue is a little more nuanced that Jezza coming about and saying  ‘*** the Jews’ or whatever.

 

 It appears to be a issue more at the local/activist level. 

 

There have been been numerous complaints from it’s own party members over it. In addition undoubtably, some members, have or has been using language that has been, by labours own guidance, anti Semitic. I posted a link in the last labour anti Semitic thread, if you can be arsed looking for it. (From memory is was calling Jewish people Zio’s or similar, which was language banned under labours rules. I’m sure you appreciate not all Jewish people are zionists etc)

 

Whilst they have received criticism for not adopting the IHRA definition of anti semetism. Though I don’t think they are the only ones, I might be wrong. 

 

The reason they are being investigated is because the equality commission have received enough complaints from people/groups, around concerns they have discriminated, harasssed and victimised people of that faith. 

 

You can can be pro Palestine without being anti Semitic. I suspect that is something the more fanatical types, in their support of Palestine have forgot and perhaps confusing issues. Whilst some are probably just anti semetic. 

 

The reason you probably haven’t seen too much of the complaints, internal complaints tend to be handled internally. It appears a lot of the people who have made complaints feel less than satisfied at the handling and have decided to escalate the issue in attempt to get it addressed. 

 

I can’t really comment on the validity of their complaints.

 

Though having witnessed some of the ranting of the some of the Corbynista types, I do find them pretty vile. Despite their assertions of being ‘nice guys’ they are just a bunch of intolerant pricks, who come across as little more than low intellect, bitter, fanatics who aren’t adverse to using abusive language as they believe they’re right. Though I guess all political parties have those types. 

 

 

 

 

That seems a pretty fair assessment of the situation.

 

Corbyn hasn't helped himself by being seen in the same room/cemetery/street as some of the less salubrious elements of the Palestinian movement.

 

Equally, and I totally agree that you can be pro Palestine without being anti Semitic. some who are pro-israeli are happy to see the opposite i.e. you are anti-semitic if you are pro-palestinian.

 

Interestingly in the labour Party though you just need to say you voted Lib Dem at the Euro elections to get immediately turfed out.  Priorities, eh?

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GlasgoJambo

I suspect because a lot of it is down to subjective interpretation - which is increasingly becoming more important than intent. 

When you play identity politics with the most organised and experienced oppressed group prepare to get bitten.

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Just now, Lord BJ said:

 

That was pretty poor imho. Particularly, when jezza hasn’t necessarily been all that komforist as a party member in past. It does the Labour Party no favours on a number of levels.

 

 

And now they are massively backtracking it would seem https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/30/labour-to-review-decision-expel-alastair-campbell

 

It's a weird set up with Labour at the moment.  I don't mind Corbyn and their manifesto at the last election was quite attractive (to me at least!)

 

But the Soviet style democratic centralist approach is a turn off.  They appear to have some good people in Labour, I don't mind Watson, don't mind McLennan, don't mind Starmer.  Yet there seems to be this inability to agree on and then communicate what they are about.  I don't think they understand how dramatically things have changed in this country (same with the Tories).

 

The political system needs massively overhauled so that citizens can reconnect to it, for the better.  IMO.

 

.

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Brighton Jambo

My understanding is that this issue is not to with support for Palestine and so by definition opposing Israel.  It is a far deeper distrust of Jewish people and a belief that they are to blame for a number the worlds wrongs.

 

There is a strong belief, allegedly, amongst those with a  strong left leaning that Jewish people are responsible for  modern capitalism, that they are obsessed with money and propping up a world dominated by finance and money.   Given how much those from a communist/socialist viewpoint despite modern capitalism you can see why they would then say some less than positive things about those they hold responsible - Jewish people.  The problem is that rhetoric (Jewish people being money obsessed at expense of everyone else) is too close the rhetoric the Nazi's used to generate anti Jewish feeling.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

My understanding is that this issue is not to with support for Palestine and so by definition opposing Israel.  It is a far deeper distrust of Jewish people and a belief that they are to blame for a number the worlds wrongs.

 

There is a strong belief, allegedly, amongst those with a  strong left leaning that Jewish people are responsible for  modern capitalism, that they are obsessed with money and propping up a world dominated by finance and money.   Given how much those from a communist/socialist viewpoint despite modern capitalism you can see why they would then say some less than positive things about those they hold responsible - Jewish people.  The problem is that rhetoric (Jewish people being money obsessed at expense of everyone else) is too close the rhetoric the Nazi's used to generate anti Jewish feeling.

 

 

 

And despite some of the leading luminaries of the left being Jews!

 

Marx and Trotsky for starters.

 

That Jewish/Capitalist trope is more associated with the Nazi's than the left (in my experience!), Bolshevism was also a Jewish disease apparently...

 

Any leftist worth their salt would not indulge in racial or sectarian ideology (imo) yet it seems that there are elements that do, unfortunately.

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4 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

That’s quite amusing but he’s clearly not only one.

 

I didn’t really like his manefisto. Obviously bits you agree with. But economically I found it concerning and believe it would lead to a reduction in the quality of people living standards. 

 

I can explain in a mass amount of details and it’s not because I believe some ‘campaign’ against it. 

 

I just funtementally disagree that the approach, despite being well intentioned would be successful.

 

At least you thought it was well intentioned. :thumb:

 

4 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Yeah i agree. Though it always seems to a problem with socialism. To make it successful you need to enforce compliance. At that point I’m out and can’t follow it. 

 

At heart I’m probably a libertarian, so it never sits with me. 

 

Atlee Government post WWII?  You would be against that?

 

4 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I really like Watson despite, our views not aligning. I like the way he handles himself and fundamentally he I believe wants the best and is prepared to compromise to achieve that. 

 

Yeah, I don't mind him.  Watson and Starmer would be decent leaders imo.

 

4 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

There is is no doubt we have seen a shift in country and suspect we will see an evolution of our politics over the next few years. Whether that will be for better, time will tell.

 

Hopefully for the good.

 

4 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Agreed.

 

I have a few ideas, but this thread isn't the place for such a segue

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1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

That seems a pretty fair assessment of the situation.

 

Corbyn hasn't helped himself by being seen in the same room/cemetery/street as some of the less salubrious elements of the Palestinian movement.

 

Equally, and I totally agree that you can be pro Palestine without being anti Semitic. some who are pro-israeli are happy to see the opposite i.e. you are anti-semitic if you are pro-palestinian.

 

Interestingly in the labour Party though you just need to say you voted Lib Dem at the Euro elections to get immediately turfed out.  Priorities, eh?

I'd boot them out aswell. Go and join the Libdems.

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I P Knightley
3 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

I think the issue is a little more nuanced that Jezza coming about and saying  ‘*** the Jews’ or whatever.

 

 It appears to be a issue more at the local/activist level. 

 

There have been been numerous complaints from it’s own party members over it. In addition undoubtably, some members, have or has been using language that has been, by labours own guidance, anti Semitic. I posted a link in the last labour anti Semitic thread, if you can be arsed looking for it. (From memory is was calling Jewish people Zio’s or similar, which was language banned under labours rules. I’m sure you appreciate not all Jewish people are zionists etc)

 

Whilst they have received criticism for not adopting the IHRA definition of anti semetism. Though I don’t think they are the only ones, I might be wrong. 

 

The reason they are being investigated is because the equality commission have received enough complaints from people/groups, around concerns they have discriminated, harasssed and victimised people of that faith. 

 

You can can be pro Palestine without being anti Semitic. I suspect that is something the more fanatical types, in their support of Palestine have forgot and perhaps confusing issues. Whilst some are probably just anti semetic. 

 

The reason you probably haven’t seen too much of the complaints, internal complaints tend to be handled internally. It appears a lot of the people who have made complaints feel less than satisfied at the handling and have decided to escalate the issue in attempt to get it addressed. 

 

I can’t really comment on the validity of their complaints.

 

Though having witnessed some of the ranting of the some of the Corbynista types, I do find them pretty vile. Despite their assertions of being ‘nice guys’ they are just a bunch of intolerant pricks, who come across as little more than low intellect, bitter, fanatics who aren’t adverse to using abusive language as they believe they’re right. Though I guess all political parties have those types. 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting that. So, they're being investigated for not investigating internal allegations of anti-semitism? Seems fair to me. Daft of them, but a reasonable outcome - especially in light of their swiftness to kick Ali Campbell out. It makes you question their will.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

And now they are massively backtracking it would seem https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/30/labour-to-review-decision-expel-alastair-campbell

 

It's a weird set up with Labour at the moment.  I don't mind Corbyn and their manifesto at the last election was quite attractive (to me at least!)

 

But the Soviet style democratic centralist approach is a turn off.  They appear to have some good people in Labour, I don't mind Watson, don't mind McLennan, don't mind Starmer.  Yet there seems to be this inability to agree on and then communicate what they are about.  I don't think they understand how dramatically things have changed in this country (same with the Tories).

 

The political system needs massively overhauled so that citizens can reconnect to it, for the better.  IMO.

 

.

 

There's another problem too, which is that Corbyn's tactic on difficult issues (particularly Brexit) is never to commit himself either way. He's forever hedging his bets and giving people the impression that he says one thing but thinks another.

 

In short, he has to go. Like you say, there are plenty of competent people in the Labour party but Corbyn and his crew are quite the opposite. Interesting to see what it takes for him to see the damage he's doing.

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1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

And now they are massively backtracking it would seem https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/30/labour-to-review-decision-expel-alastair-campbell

 

It's a weird set up with Labour at the moment.  I don't mind Corbyn and their manifesto at the last election was quite attractive (to me at least!)

 

But the Soviet style democratic centralist approach is a turn off.  They appear to have some good people in Labour, I don't mind Watson, don't mind McLennan, don't mind Starmer.  Yet there seems to be this inability to agree on and then communicate what they are about.  I don't think they understand how dramatically things have changed in this country (same with the Tories).

 

The political system needs massively overhauled so that citizens can reconnect to it, for the better.  IMO.

 

.

Labour party and supporters label every other with negative terms. Nazi's, dictators, cults, undemocratic, racist, bullies, Bigots etc..... all those terms are more akin to Labour than anyone else. 

 

Bit like Celtic fc... if they label everyone else, maybe no one will notice they are a sh!t show. 

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Cruyff Turn

I think the Labour Party has a serious problem with anti-semitism and Jezza is certainly turning a blind eye to it.

 

The fact they expelled Alastair Campbell from the party for voting Lib Dem’s and merely suspended an MP for Anti Semitic remarks just shows how soft Labour is on the issue. 

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I P Knightley
1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

The info is pretty available, if you want to dig about. 

 

Anyway another floght to get on?

"Digging about" to me is asking about it on JKB :D

 

Lo and behold, I'm better informed about it today than I was this time yesterday.

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The Mighty Thor
53 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

 

 

Lo and behold, I'm better informed about it today than I was this time yesterday.

And there's very very few days you can say that about coming on here these days. 

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On ‎30‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 06:25, I P Knightley said:

…..

So how come they're being investigated for anti-semitism? 

Because if you want to blacken someone's  name, calling them anti-Semitic is about on par with being accused of paedophilia

Proving it seems to be different though.

 

The labour politician in Jambo Jimbo's link has been suspended , for suggesting the Israeli Embassy is behind the anti-Semitic smears on Labour. This is conspiracy stuff, not anti Semitism.

Criticising Israel, does not make you anti-Semitic. There's IHRA rules for this.  It doesn't seem to me, that Peter Willsman, nor Ken Livingston for that matter, broke these rules.

Would be interesting to see the evidence, as the OP suggests - on who said what.

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maroonlegions

The Tory blame  game gurus on here can ram their attacks on the Labour party right up their holier than now attitude  sun dont shines.

 

There  is and has been some right stinking rat individuals within the Israel Government in regards to the human cost of this conflict.

 

If those Tories on hear really want people to think that their party is squeaky clean , then i have some pixxie dust for sale. 

 

Pulling up or criticizing the Israel government for its WAR CRIMES against the Palestine people is not anti semitic as most of the Tory right wing media would have us believe.  

 

Take this cold blooded reptiles responce to an interview  she gave.

 

 

 

Edited by maroonlegions
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6 hours ago, felix said:

Because if you want to blacken someone's  name, calling them anti-Semitic is about on par with being accused of paedophilia

Proving it seems to be different though.

 

The labour politician in Jambo Jimbo's link has been suspended , for suggesting the Israeli Embassy is behind the anti-Semitic smears on Labour. This is conspiracy stuff, not anti Semitism.

Criticising Israel, does not make you anti-Semitic. There's IHRA rules for this.  It doesn't seem to me, that Peter Willsman, nor Ken Livingston for that matter, broke these rules.

Would be interesting to see the evidence, as the OP suggests - on who said what.

 Correct.

Skullduggery has reached new heights in British politics.

Whoever formulated the “ anti-Semitic smear “ campaign does deserve credit...even though it is vile.

A master stroke ! 

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maroonlegions

Laura Kuenssberg , the BBC jurno who once had to apologize for false reporting on Corbyn. She was one of the chief antagonists in the BBCs ongoing media smear campaign on Corbyn. Again in no way are the Tories any way near squeaky clean in regards to anti semitic leanings.    

 

 

"While it’s not absolutely clear what the senior Tory meant by the “entire apparatus”, it would appear that the concerns raised by the Conservative politician echo similar complaints made by Israel’s critics over the influence of CFI and other pro-Israeli lobby groups on the entire British establishment including the media".

 

 

 
 
image.jpeg
Edited by maroonlegions
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maroonlegions

Very interesting read and video on the  usage of  the anti semitic  smear on anyone in the Labour party that dares to criticise Israels government and its treatment  and murder of Palestine's.

 

See link for a more in depth look at just how far those within the Israeli embassy will go. An undercover reporter  reported what he found in the link.

 

"Some of the people here are more Palestinian than the Palestinians," Mark Regev, Israel's ambassador to the UK, warned his supporters.:whistling:

 

"The fashion is if you are on the left today you are probably very hostile to Israel, if not anti-Semitic.":vrface:

 "The complaints came in the wake of the Chakrabarti Inquiry, an investigation during summer 2016 into anti-Semitism within the Labour ranks. That report had concluded racism, including anti-Semitism, was not endemic within Labour."

 

Al Jazeera placed an undercover reporter within an influential group of politicians, activists and Israeli embassy officials working to drum up support for Israel, as part of a six-month investigation, The Lobby.

 

Link; 

 

 

  

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  • 4 weeks later...
I P Knightley
23 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

They seem determined to shoot themselves in the foot at every conceivable opportunity.

It can't just have been Corbyn who engineered that PR fokk up.

There's a whole new level of stupidity.

While, at the same time, the Tories take steps to ensure that any 'investigation' into Islamophobia will be superficial at best.

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maroonlegions

See the right wing media are really scraping their never ending bottom of the barrel on Corbyn.

 

Seeing as their anti semitic stick on Corbyn has failed they now are happy to publish leaks from right wing anonymous civil  servants on his apparent frail self. Attacking his physical and mental state to add doubts on his ability to be PM. Sneaky and sleazy.

 

He is not a boozer not taking stuff up his nose ,cycling, eating simple, VERY well educated, above all he has a heart of  a lion.

 

I  tried this once when I was in my 30s  what Corbyn did below i am still  fit and healthy not overweight....it's really hard believe me JC isn't frail.

 

You have to feel for Jeremy  as he is so frail eh?

 

 

 

65721132_889426394752771_7303150639087878144_n.jpg

66151582_889426401419437_4275764999730757632_n.jpg

Edited by maroonlegions
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Brighton Jambo
3 hours ago, maroonlegions said:

See the right wing media are really scraping their never ending bottom of the barrel on Corbyn.

 

Seeing as their anti semitic stick on Corbyn has failed they now are happy to publish leaks from right wing anonymous civil  servants on his apparent frail self. Attacking his physical and mental state to add doubts on his ability to be PM. Sneaky and sleazy.

 

He is not a boozer not taking stuff up his nose ,cycling, eating simple, VERY well educated, above all he has a heart of  a lion.

 

I  tried this once when I was in my 30s  what Corbyn did below i am still  fit and healthy not overweight....it's really hard believe me JC isn't frail.

 

You have to feel for Jeremy  as he is so frail eh?

 

 

 

65721132_889426394752771_7303150639087878144_n.jpg

66151582_889426401419437_4275764999730757632_n.jpg

I agree that the latest reporting seems underhand but posting pictures from 9 months ago doesn’t do anything to refute those claims.  

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maroonlegions
7 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I agree that the latest reporting seems underhand but posting pictures from 9 months ago doesn’t do anything to refute those claims.  

So he is suddenly deemed unfit mentality  and physically by a couple of anonymous civil servants , if that is indeed the truth,  but not  by professional health professionals or doctors , is that a credible refute of your argument.  

 

This latest attack on Corbyn  reeks of shite and if some are gullible enough to believe this crap then  the right wing media are happy.

 

 

 

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ML mate, I'm so glad you had a meme at the ready or I'd not have been able to decide this issue on my own.

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Brighton Jambo
9 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

So he is suddenly deemed unfit mentality  and physically by a couple of anonymous civil servants , if that is indeed the truth,  but not  by professional health professionals or doctors , is that a credible refute of your argument.  

 

This latest attack on Corbyn  reeks of shite and if some are gullible enough to believe this crap then  the right wing media are happy.

 

 

 

Image may contain: 1 person, smiling, meme and text

I don’t believe it either, but you posting pictures from last year to demonstrate he is currently in good health is also false information. 

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  • 1 year later...
On 30/06/2019 at 21:24, Justin Z said:

ML mate, I'm so glad you had a meme at the ready or I'd not have been able to decide this issue on my own.

🤣

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5 hours ago, jake said:

I think we all know that criticising state and ethnicity are not the same thing.

 

It appears Corbyn does not.

 

What's happening, now. I see Netanyahu has had his court date shifted to January. Other than that, what's the new fascination about Israel and Judaism? 

 

Next it'll be anti Scottish /N Irish to slag ginger people. 

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14 hours ago, ri Alban said:

What's happening, now. I see Netanyahu has had his court date shifted to January. Other than that, what's the new fascination about Israel and Judaism? 

 

Next it'll be anti Scottish /N Irish to slag ginger people. 

I was referring to his comments after the court ruling .

 

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Governor Tarkin
On 30/05/2019 at 07:44, Lord BJ said:

Though Despite their assertions of being ‘nice guys’ they are just a bunch of intolerant pricks, who come across as little more than low intellect, bitter, fanatics who aren’t adverse to using abusive language as they believe they’re right.

 

 

 

 

A fairly accurate summary of Geoff the Mince and I.

 

:sadrobbo:

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34 minutes ago, jake said:

I was referring to his comments after the court ruling .

 

What happened bud? I haven't seen anything. 

Edited by ri Alban
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