jb102 Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48347371 The public money poured into this outfit will stagger most taxpayers. I read recently that the hedge fund owners had taken a UK government bailout to stay "afloat" and immediately used it to buy a French steel works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, jb102 said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48347371 The public money poured into this outfit will stagger most taxpayers. I read recently that the hedge fund owners had taken a UK government bailout to stay "afloat" and immediately used it to buy a French steel works. Strategic asset. Should be nationalised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Burgundy Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 That's Nigel's plans goosed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb102 Posted May 21, 2019 Author Share Posted May 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said: Strategic asset. Should be nationalised. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 (edited) Private company. If they fail, they fail. That's how capitalism works. Neoliberalism, on the other hand, privatises profits and socialises losses (in the forms of govt bailouts). Edited May 21, 2019 by Cade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, Cade said: Private company. If they fail, they fail. That's how capitalism works. Neoliberalism, on the other hand, privatises profits and socialises losses (in the forms of govt bailouts). Government would be better off using public money to support something that the pulic owns. A well-run break-even steel industry is surely in the long-term strategic national interest. Nobody knows whats around the corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 36 minutes ago, Cade said: Private company. If they fail, they fail. That's how capitalism works. Neoliberalism, on the other hand, privatises profits and socialises losses (in the forms of govt bailouts). This is absolutely correct. Look at the story recently about how the government was paying to replace Grenfell Tower-style cladding because the private landlords wouldn't pay for it themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb102 Posted May 21, 2019 Author Share Posted May 21, 2019 32 minutes ago, Cade said: Private company. If they fail, they fail. That's how capitalism works. Neoliberalism, on the other hand, privatises profits and socialises losses (in the forms of govt bailouts). Neoliberalism must be what we have at the moment in this case. My feeling is that the current owners (and backers) of British Steel have misrepresented their intentions and stolen from the taxpayer on a massive scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 30 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said: Government would be better off using public money to support something that the pulic owns. A well-run break-even steel industry is surely in the long-term strategic national interest. Nobody knows whats around the corner. Hear hear! Yet it is the complete opposite of Tory ideology. The government that governs less, governs best etc. If Corbyn came out with what you have said he'd be labelled a loony left Marxist traitor, or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Boris said: Hear hear! Yet it is the complete opposite of Tory ideology. The government that governs less, governs best etc. If Corbyn came out with what you have said he'd be labelled a loony left Marxist traitor, or something. Because when you conduct politics by soundbite nobody pays any attention to context. In an unpredictable and post-Brexit world a functioning steel industry (amongst others) is as essential to national security as a standing army. The flagrant irresponsibility in this regard displayed by a succession of govenments chasing an ideological fast-buck does us all a disservice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 15 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said: Because when you conduct politics by soundbite nobody pays any attention to context. In an unpredictable and post-Brexit world a functioning steel industry (amongst others) is as essential to national security as a standing army. The flagrant irresponsibility in this regard displayed by a succession of govenments chasing an ideological fast-buck does us all a disservice. Rock on comrade! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Swanson Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 We do work over at Scunthorpe and certainly the areas we work in are in need of massive repairs / refurbishment. We have a few orders from them that are needing measured up (thankfully haven't ordered any materials for them) but it's now all up in the air if administration is confirmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 Just seen an article on Sky News where one graph showed the problem British Steel and indeed everybody has outside of China. In the last two years (2017 & 2018) China produced more steel in those 2 years alone than the UK has produced in total in the last 170 years from the mid 1800's, that's scary that China can produce that amount of steel, no wonder China can flood the worlds markets with cheap steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 23 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: Just seen an article on Sky News where one graph showed the problem British Steel and indeed everybody has outside of China. In the last two years (2017 & 2018) China produced more steel in those 2 years alone than the UK has produced in total in the last 170 years from the mid 1800's, that's scary that China can produce that amount of steel, no wonder China can flood the worlds markets with cheap steel. But whilst the quality is improving, there are many companies, BP was one of them for a time when I was there, that refused to use anything containing Chinese steel due to lack of tracabilty on the metals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 5000+ jobs down the swanny. FFS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Lincs Jambo Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 Living just outside Scunthorpe and going there several times a week I think it would be a disaster for the town if the plant closed. 4,500 employed directly by British Steel is just the tip of the iceberg. You just have to drive around the industrial estates to the immediate west and north to get an idea of just how essential British Steel is to the town’s whole economy. Already the amount of rough sleepers on the streets in Scunny has gone through the roof over the past few years and the town can’t cope even with the current amount let alone how many more would join them if the plant closes. Grim times indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 Not sure what I think of this. A big part of me thinks this is the natural course of capitalism. Same as when Ravenscraig went, decimating Motherwell. One question relating to returning BS to public ownership. What security did the govt seek on the loans they've already pumped in? The plant? The business? Or just a handout? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, N Lincs Jambo said: Living just outside Scunthorpe and going there several times a week I think it would be a disaster for the town if the plant closed. 4,500 employed directly by British Steel is just the tip of the iceberg. You just have to drive around the industrial estates to the immediate west and north to get an idea of just how essential British Steel is to the town’s whole economy. Already the amount of rough sleepers on the streets in Scunny has gone through the roof over the past few years and the town can’t cope even with the current amount let alone how many more would join them if the plant closes. Grim times indeed. Managed decline will sort it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 The UK took a decision in the 80s to function more as a service economy and to let our industry fade away. Very risky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Sky News reporting that British Steel will be placed into an Insolvency Process today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sraman Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 If we're nationalising the serious loss maker that is British Steel to prepare for "what's around the corner" I'm going to get the Gov. to give me a few million to set up a new loss making Nationalised plumbing fitting manufacturer. Gotta have a factory ready to switch over to mass production of shells and bullets at a moments notice to go with all of that steel hardware. Livin' on an island. Lookin after.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 20 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said: Not sure what I think of this. A big part of me thinks this is the natural course of capitalism. Same as when Ravenscraig went, decimating Motherwell. One question relating to returning BS to public ownership. What security did the govt seek on the loans they've already pumped in? The plant? The business? Or just a handout? The concern is that nothing serious ever replaces what's lost (or in a lot of cases anyway). A town's industry is destroyed and they're left with very little or nothing. It's been happening for years and the UK has never has a plan for how to deal with it. Places like Scunny, Grimsby and so on are literally left to rot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnybob72 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 All depends how much they need to keep going. Tax and NI contributions of 4,500 workers versus having to pay those same people benefits for the next X years will cost the Govt - or rather the taxpayer - an awful lot more than £30m. And then you have the same issues with the supply chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, skinnybob72 said: All depends how much they need to keep going. Tax and NI contributions of 4,500 workers versus having to pay those same people benefits for the next X years will cost the Govt - or rather the taxpayer - an awful lot more than £30m. And then you have the same issues with the supply chain. I guess there's also a question, though, of whether it can survive one way or the other. Hard to throw money at it if they're going to be back in the same position in 12 months time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: The concern is that nothing serious ever replaces what's lost (or in a lot of cases anyway). A town's industry is destroyed and they're left with very little or nothing. It's been happening for years and the TORIES HAVE never had a plan for how to deal with it. Places like Scunny, Grimsby and so on are literally left to rot. FTFY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 From the BBC report "The firm's owners Greybull Capital failed to secure financial support from the government after claiming it faced a number of Brexit-related issues." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-48359652 North Lincs voted resoundingly to leave the EU at the referendum. Unfortunately they are about to understand the full ramifications of this shambles that has affected the country. Let down by post crash austerity, and swindled by spivs and snake oil salesman who couldn't give a toss about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) Brexit related issues - good old impartial BBC. What a convenient excuse 'Brexit' is giving the far left. Up till now it has been Thatcher and the Tories. Since the dawn of time and the first asset/service v cash transactions, businesses have opened and closed. Some thrive, some struggle. Profits go up and they go down. Brexit has absolutely **** all to do with this. Like blaming Thatcher that the world's demand for coal declined. Shit happens, I hate seeing good companies fail but the world is constantly changing. For every Nokia, there is a Samsung around the corner. Edited May 22, 2019 by i8hibsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 12 minutes ago, i8hibsh said: Brexit related issues - good old impartial BBC. Em, it was the company that owns British Steel that said that, the BBC only reported it. 12 minutes ago, i8hibsh said: What a convenient excuse 'Brexit' is giving the far left. Up till now it has been Thatcher and the Tories. "far left" - That Vince Cable is a right Bolshie so and so, isn't he? 12 minutes ago, i8hibsh said: Since the dawn of time and the first asset/service v cash transactions, businesses have opened and closed. Some thrive, some struggle. Profits go up and they go down. Brexit has absolutely **** all to do with this. Yeah, why would the company say that it has then? Please explain 12 minutes ago, i8hibsh said: Like blaming Thatcher that the world's demand for coal declined. I don't think anyone did. I mean if you are referring to the Miners Strike, then there was still demand for coal in the UK at least - we imported it from Sweden after the pits were closed down. 12 minutes ago, i8hibsh said: Shit happens, I hate seeing good companies fail but the world is constantly changing. For every Nokia, there is a Samsung around the corner. Nokia is still a successful company. Isn't the concept of a good company failing a bit of an oxymoron? If it were good, how could it fail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Just now, Boris said: Em, it was the company that owns British Steel that said that, the BBC only reported it. Yes I get that, they have a habit of only reporting what is said on one side though. "far left" - That Vince Cable is a right Bolshie so and so, isn't he? Coming from the guy who thinks anything right of Jeremy Corbyn is Hitler (even though Hitler was far left) Just now, Boris said: Yeah, why would the company say that it has then? Please explain It is a cop out to hide their own failings. I don't think anyone did. I mean if you are referring to the Miners Strike, then there was still demand for coal in the UK at least - we imported it from Sweden after the pits were closed down. Houses have not even been built with chimneys for near 30 years. This speaks volumes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Sraman said: If we're nationalising the serious loss maker that is British Steel to prepare for "what's around the corner" I'm going to get the Gov. to give me a few million to set up a new loss making Nationalised plumbing fitting manufacturer. Gotta have a factory ready to switch over to mass production of shells and bullets at a moments notice to go with all of that steel hardware. Livin' on an island. Lookin after.... Is it really any different to the Government spending billions on aircraft carriers, nuclear subs, etc, to prepare for (as you so patronisingly put in inverted commas) what's around the corner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Just now, i8hibsh said: Coming from the guy who thinks anything right of Jeremy Corbyn is Hitler (even though Hitler was far left) Houses have not even been built with chimneys for near 30 years. This speaks volumes No I don't and no Hitler wasn't far left. I'm not sure what relevance houses being built without chimneys has to do with blaming Thatcher on reduced global demand for coal, which no one said ever! Also, I think some houses have been built with chimneys, log burners are pretty popular are they not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Boris said: No I don't and no Hitler wasn't far left. I'm not sure what relevance houses being built without chimneys has to do with blaming Thatcher on reduced global demand for coal, which no one said ever! Also, I think some houses have been built with chimneys, log burners are pretty popular are they not? The Hitler was far right argument has been done to death but it is exactly that..................a myth. You have never heard Thatcher cited for the pit closures in the UK? Are you on the wind up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 minute ago, i8hibsh said: The Hitler was far right argument has been done to death but it is exactly that..................a myth. Is that the alt-right explanation? 1 minute ago, i8hibsh said: You have never heard Thatcher cited for the pit closures in the UK? Are you on the wind up? That wasn't what you said. You said, "Like blaming Thatcher that the world's demand for coal declined." And I said that I've never heard that one before and I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone say that before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sraman Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 13 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said: Is it really any different to the Government spending billions on aircraft carriers, nuclear subs, etc, to prepare for (as you so patronisingly put in inverted commas) what's around the corner? It wasn't patronisingly. I took inspiration from your quote and pitched a perfectly viable business idea that also provides our increasingly Isolated island nation with it's own means to defend itself, if necessary. It also helps politically to have interests in as many of the major materials manufacturing/supply industries as you are able. Granted the job opportunities in this line of work would be meagre in comparison but that also means that the investment required would be meagre in comparison. None of the above is the point though. The point is, if a Tory Gov. starts throwing money about, for any particular reason, you do what they do and twist that reason to suit you, take as much of the cash as you can then ride off into the sunset with a gong. You gotta be quick though, you know what they're like where money's involved. Flies roond shite, flies roond shite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Over 120 million pumped in previously and still its failed. It's probably not viable to try to save it. Harsh but its capitalism at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Sraman said: It wasn't patronisingly. I took inspiration from your quote and pitched a perfectly viable business idea that also provides our increasingly Isolated island nation with it's own means to defend itself, if necessary. It also helps politically to have interests in as many of the major materials manufacturing/supply industries as you are able. Granted the job opportunities in this line of work would be meagre in comparison but that also means that the investment required would be meagre in comparison. None of the above is the point though. The point is, if a Tory Gov. starts throwing money about, for any particular reason, you do what they do and twist that reason to suit you, take as much of the cash as you can then ride off into the sunset with a gong. You gotta be quick though, you know what they're like where money's involved. Flies roond shite, flies roond shite. Sorry if I took you the wrong way and was a bit arsey. It was one of those mornings at work and I'm on the defensive! ? ? Edited May 22, 2019 by Governor Tarkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: Over 120 million pumped in previously and still its failed. It's probably not viable to try to save it. Harsh but its capitalism at work. On a social level this will be devestating to those families and communities about to lose their futures. On a strategic level the skills and technical know-how will be a bigger loss than the infrastructure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sraman Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said: Sorry if I took you the wrong way and was a bit arsey. It was one of those mornings at work and I'm on the defensive! ? ? Haha. Arsey is always expected when I post on a political thread in kickback. It's all that diviciviousnessity. There's a lot of it about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said: On a social level this will be devestating to those families and communities about to lose their futures. On a strategic level the skills and technical know-how will be a bigger loss than the infrastructure. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 I was about to post this morning that I hadn't yet seen Jamie Oliver's business collapse attributed to Brexit ... but then I hadn't yet read today's Guardian. I have now ... and of course there it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said: On a social level this will be devestating to those families and communities about to lose their futures. On a strategic level the skills and technical know-how will be a bigger loss than the infrastructure. Don't doubt that for a second. Systemic political and social failure from Thatcher onwards which leads us to this point. Chucking more money at it isn't going to solve the issue unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 3 hours ago, i8hibsh said: Brexit related issues - good old impartial BBC. What a convenient excuse 'Brexit' is giving the far left. Up till now it has been Thatcher and the Tories. Since the dawn of time and the first asset/service v cash transactions, businesses have opened and closed. Some thrive, some struggle. Profits go up and they go down. Brexit has absolutely **** all to do with this. Like blaming Thatcher that the world's demand for coal declined. Shit happens, I hate seeing good companies fail but the world is constantly changing. For every Nokia, there is a Samsung around the corner. Certainly very little to do with it. 90% of British steel jobs have been lost since we joined the EU but it would be as facile to attribute that to joining the EU as to attribute what is just the latest loss in the 45 year history of continual decline to Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Sold off, asset stripped, moved on for a quid, government hand outs galore, went bust anyways. All the money will be in some nice wee offshore bank account. Yay capitalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Francis Albert said: I was about to post this morning that I hadn't yet seen Jamie Oliver's business collapse attributed to Brexit ... but then I hadn't yet read today's Guardian. I have now ... and of course there it is. IIRC within a very short period of time after the referendum result (weeks, if that), Oliver closed a restaurant in Birmingham (or area thereof) citing 'brexit' as the reason, what he wasn't so keen to mention was that the very same restaurant had been in series financial trouble for about a year beforehand and had recently been absolutely savaged by food critics/journalists whom had visited the restaurant and were less than happy with the crap they had been served, that was probably the real reason it shut the public not wanting to pay for overpriced rubbish, but brexit is a convenient excuse at times. I hear Sir Philip Green's Arcadia group (Top Shop etc) are in trouble as well. Back on topic. There was a reason why Tata Steel sold this plant for £1 only three years ago, there tends not to be many profitable debt free businesses which get sold for £1. Speaking of Tata Steel, heard on the TV today that their Port Talbot plant is not doing great either, cited market conditions as the reason, possibly might have something to do with the steel market being swamped with very cheap Chinese steel and nobody can compete with it. This isn't just the UK that this is happening as steel plants all over Europe are in trouble as well, the simple plain fact is that there is way too much steel on the market for too few customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said: On a social level this will be devestating to those families and communities about to lose their futures. On a strategic level the skills and technical know-how will be a bigger loss than the infrastructure. Yip, quite often once people get jobs outwith of whatever industry they have just been made redundant from, they don't usually go back, and that could be folks with 20/30 years experience which is lost to that industry and that experience often can't be replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb102 Posted May 22, 2019 Author Share Posted May 22, 2019 Just to highlight what British Steel were up against-China manufactured more steel in 2017 and 2018 than Britain has made in total since the industrial revolution. Some consider that flooding the world market with cheap (and inferior) is an economic attack on competitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, jb102 said: Some consider that flooding the world market with cheap (and inferior) is an economic attack on competitors. It's more than an economic attack. They've effectively removed a strategic asset from a geopolitical adversary. Edited May 22, 2019 by Governor Tarkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 On 21/05/2019 at 09:17, Cade said: Private company. If they fail, they fail. That's how capitalism works. Neoliberalism, on the other hand, privatises profits and socialises losses (in the forms of govt bailouts). One of your best posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said: It's more than an economic attack. They've effectively removed a strategic asset from a geopolitical adversary. To be fair handing it over to asset strippers accelerated the process. Maybe, seeing as we are a global power, we should threaten China with huge tariffs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 29 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: To be fair handing it over to asset strippers accelerated the process. 29 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: Maybe, seeing as we are a global power, we should threaten China with huge tariffs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.