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Time for the SFA to act?


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Inch Hearts
43 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

 

It’s how any decent self respecting institution should act. Doesn’t matter that it was a football club any club or business who’s had a duty of care to minors and failed them should look to compensate those people. It won’t change the abuse and mental torture but if it helps them live out a more comfortable life then it’s the right thing to do.

 

True ?

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Agree with comments about liability

 

But I remember the 1970s. Celtic Boys Club were considered part of Celtic. Laughable they say otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Barry Bennell was employed by Manchester City, Jim Torbett and Jim McCafferty were employed by Celtic Boys Club, not Celtic FC. It's a completely different situation.

 

Jim McCafferty was. And surely there was links between Celtic Boys Club and Celtic FC?

 

i may be wrong but I’ve not heard anything official from Celtic perhaps if there’s no links they should release a statement. If Celtic have no connections I’d have thought they would make that very clear, they’re quick enough to release statements to press when it suits and I’d have thought they’d be very keen to distance themselves from this.

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Mr Elwood P
1 minute ago, Rudy T said:

 

Jim McCafferty was. And surely there was links between Celtic Boys Club and Celtic FC?

 

i may be wrong but I’ve not heard anything official from Celtic perhaps if there’s no links they should release a statement. If Celtic have no connections I’d have thought they would make that very clear, they’re quick enough to release statements to press when it suits and I’d have thought they’d be very keen to distance themselves from this.

 

They were connected in terms of a working relationship but not in terms of legal liability. It's not even certain that Celtic Boys Club would be held liable, it's a question of whether or not the company would be held vicariously liable for the actions of their employee.

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Not being any kind of apologist but Celtic were far from the only club with this issue.

 

Disrespectful also to take any kind of glee out of the situation

Edited by Jammy T
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doctor jambo
26 minutes ago, Jammy T said:

Not being any kind of apologist but Celtic were far from the only club with this issue.

 

Disrespectful also to take any kind of glee out of the situation

True, in the Budge era us playing a cup final against Celtic with "save the children" across our strips is clearly unacceptable wummery

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Forever Hearts
2 hours ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Aye, the complication is that it was Celtic Boys Club, now St Patrick's Sports Academy, and not Celtic FC. The basic principle of company law is that a company is a juristic person and each company, even if subsidiaries of one another, are insulated from the wrongdoings of the other. Celtic FC don't appear to have any legal liability here. Morality and guilt is a whole other conversation.

Who paid their wages? Who funded their trips to America and other foreign countries? Who paid for the kits? 

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Forever Hearts
30 minutes ago, Jammy T said:

Not being any kind of apologist but Celtic were far from the only club with this issue.

 

Disrespectful also to take any kind of glee out of the situation

They're the only club with four (and counting) employees who've been convicted of child abuse. And spare me the separate entity stuff. The dogs on the street know who funded Celtic Boys Club. 

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Mr Elwood P
Just now, Forever Hearts said:

Who paid their wages? Who funded their trips to America and other foreign countries? Who paid for the kits? 

 

I'm talking about how the legal position works. What is right and wrong is quite far removed from company law. The use of shell companies and subsidiaries can insulate a holding company from all kinds of liability. Child abuse, death of workers, tax avoidance ... A fascinating concept all based on a fiction that a company is a legal person.

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
6 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Need to let Celtic respond first though they haven't shown much interest in taking responsibility. 

 

But the issue is protection of children. So any concerns at continuing risks need to be addressed. That is the key issue, not Celtic. 

Panorama programme surely to follow should they not

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38 minutes ago, Forever Hearts said:

Who paid their wages? Who funded their trips to America and other foreign countries? Who paid for the kits? 

 

So say you have a business and decide to sponsor a boys club with strips and pre-season trips, do you become liable if one of the coaches abuses a kid?

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maroonsgotop
8 hours ago, Calebs Grandad said:

It’s very difficult to actually put into words without being offensive to certain bodies but it appears there was a link between the people committing these offenses at Celtic Boys Club and the main perpetrator at Crewe Alexandra who is now serving 31 years for his offenses. He had 3 previous jail terms for this type of offense and I don’t think there is any doubt whatsoever that a large scale cover up happened. What is known is that Stein had one guy kicked out of Celtic but the cancer ran far deeper than this. There are several indications that a previous Chairman of Celtic who also served in Tony Blairs government was part of the cover up.  It’s a sickening stain on our game and one that will never be fully revealed in my opinion.

John Reid was Home Secretay when Madeline McCann went missing and later became Celtic Chairman. Also Gerry McCann was the Celtic Club Doctor in the 90's

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Forever Hearts
2 hours ago, Ribble said:

 

So say you have a business and decide to sponsor a boys club with strips and pre-season trips, do you become liable if one of the coaches abuses a kid?

Sponsor? Get real. 

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Forever Hearts
8 hours ago, Calebs Grandad said:

It’s very difficult to actually put into words without being offensive to certain bodies but it appears there was a link between the people committing these offenses at Celtic Boys Club and the main perpetrator at Crewe Alexandra who is now serving 31 years for his offenses. He had 3 previous jail terms for this type of offense and I don’t think there is any doubt whatsoever that a large scale cover up happened. What is known is that Stein had one guy kicked out of Celtic but the cancer ran far deeper than this. There are several indications that a previous Chairman of Celtic who also served in Tony Blairs government was part of the cover up.  It’s a sickening stain on our game and one that will never be fully revealed in my opinion.

And he was brought back and his company had a contract with Celtic to supply trophies and medals. 

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3 hours ago, Forever Hearts said:

They're the only club with four (and counting) employees who've been convicted of child abuse. And spare me the separate entity stuff. The dogs on the street know who funded Celtic Boys Club. 

 

I said nothing about separate entity.

 

Its awful and appalling and a Celtic deserve to be sued.

 

But to add a dimension of glee or tribalism to it because it is Celtic is pathetic 

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Everything about that club is Celtic related. The name, the colours, the using of Celtic facilities, the relationship between coaches and the club (on a professional basis I mean). I don't think its too much of a jump to believe that there was money moving from the football club to the boys club. This won't be too hard to investigate as there will no doubt be records proving/ disproving this theory. 

 

Celtic allowed this boys club resources and lent them its name to help it grow and attract talent. This was a boys club set up purely for the betterment of Celtic football club. Celtic should acknowledge this, and offer compensation to the victims. Continuing to force the victims to chase this puts them through pain and anguish. If they were the club they insist they are, they would do right by the victims.  

 

If this was Hearts, I'd want us to do the right thing and act in an honourable way to finally close the chapter so everyone can move on. 

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jack D and coke
3 hours ago, maroonsgotop said:

John Reid was Home Secretay when Madeline McCann went missing and later became Celtic Chairman. Also Gerry McCann was the Celtic Club Doctor in the 90's

John Reid is a proper wrong un. I really don’t like that man. 

Celtic dripping out his every pore. 

Didnt know Gerry was club doctor though. 

Another wrong un. 

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bean counter
9 hours ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Aye, the complication is that it was Celtic Boys Club, now St Patrick's Sports Academy, and not Celtic FC. The basic principle of company law is that a company is a juristic person and each company, even if subsidiaries of one another, are insulated from the wrongdoings of the other. Celtic FC don't appear to have any legal liability here. Morality and guilt is a whole other conversation.

 

In the BBC investigation one of the abused boys stated that he signed a contract with Celtic FC and was then told he had to go train and play with Celtic Boys Club.

 

The two were and still are linked

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Calebs Grandad
20 hours ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Barry Bennell was employed by Manchester City, Jim Torbett and Jim McCafferty were employed by Celtic Boys Club, not Celtic FC. It's a completely different situation.

Jock Stein had Torbett thrown out of Celtic Boys Club so that would imply that Celtic FC and Celtic Boys Club were connected. 

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Forever Hearts
27 minutes ago, Calebs Grandad said:

Jock Stein had Torbett thrown out of Celtic Boys Club so that would imply that Celtic FC and Celtic Boys Club were connected. 

And then he was brought back and handed a lucrative business contract. 

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Calebs Grandad

Celtic Boys Club were founded by Torbett in 1966. 

 

Jock Stein personally had Torbett removed in 1972 due to allegations and replaced by Frank Cairney. 

 

Kevin Kelly, Celtic director and vice chairman of Celtic Boys Club, brought Torbett back as a fundraiser for the boys club in 1986.

 

Kevin Kelly becomes Celtic chairman in 1991 and is already a director of 2 companies owned by Torbett.

 

Frank Cairney resigns in 1991 over child abuse allegations.

 

Add into this the fact that Hugh Birt the Celtic Boys Club chairman was asked to resign after approaching Kevin Kelly about allegations of abuse within the Boys Club and it becomes, in my opinion, one of the most abhorrent cover ups in Scottish history. My personal thoughts go back to the 70s and 80s following Hearts everywhere and the sight of the front row of Celtics main stand that was reserved for those of a certain occupation. 

 

 

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Calebs Grandad
Just now, Forever Hearts said:

And then he was brought back and handed a lucrative business contract. 

Correct sir, 1986. By his fellow business associate and Celtic chairman Kevin Kelly. Given his prison sentences were for offended committed from 1967-74 then 1986-94 it raises so many questions regarding Kelly himself.

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Forever Hearts
Just now, Calebs Grandad said:

Correct sir, 1986. By his fellow business associate and Celtic chairman Kevin Kelly. Given his prison sentences were for offended committed from 1967-74 then 1986-94 it raises so many questions regarding Kelly himself.

Tommy Burns wanted Frank Cairney brought back when he became manager and Fergus McCann told him "do that and you will no longer be the manager of this club."

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Calebs Grandad
5 minutes ago, Forever Hearts said:

Tommy Burns wanted Frank Cairney brought back when he became manager and Fergus McCann told him "do that and you will no longer be the manager of this club."

It seems certain people within that club just didn’t see what these men had done as being wrong. 

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23 hours ago, WageThief said:

 

Quite a rare moment for a Pope to showcase human traits!

 

Lest we forget....

Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-R24391,_Konkordats

 

 

 

 

Genuine question, forget what? 

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16 hours ago, maroonsgotop said:

John Reid was Home Secretay when Madeline McCann went missing and later became Celtic Chairman. Also Gerry McCann was the Celtic Club Doctor in the 90's

 

What’s that got to do with anything? 

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41 minutes ago, WageThief said:

 

Thanks.

 

As we ready ourselves to play against Celtic twice in six days, it is essential to remember the Reichskonkordat.

 

Not sure where that places the many thousands of Celtic fans and players who fought against the Nazis in WW2, but 'lest we forget' and all that.

 

The fight for the moral high ground will never die.

 

What was it the man said, "turn the other cheek, love your enemies....." I'm not especially religious, but I think he had a point, and his point was lost in many of the posts in this unforgiving thread.

 

Edited by 4marsbars
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57 minutes ago, 4marsbars said:

 

Thanks.

 

As we ready ourselves to play against Celtic twice in six days, it is essential to remember the Reichskonkordat.

 

Not sure where that places the many thousands of Celtic fans and players who fought against the Nazis in WW2, but 'lest we forget' and all that.

 

The fight for the moral high ground will never die.

 

What was it the man said, "turn the other cheek, love your enemies....." I'm not especially religious, but I think he had a point, and his point was lost in many of the posts in this unforgiving thread.

 

 

You didn't know what it was and now you are taking the moral high ground about it being brought up (as a vague joke) while accusing others of taking the moral high ground?  Seriously?

 

The Jesus quote is quite a stupid one in the context of a thread about child abuse.  Fortunately our law is not predicated on such nonsense (completely!).

 

I'm not sure where the Jesus quote leaves the many people (including Celtic fans) who fought in WW2 and in your battle for the moral high ground but "love thy enemy" and all that.  Unless your enemy is a Nazi.  Or a paedophile, presumably.

 

 

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Bridge of Djoum

The time for any authority to act over this industrial scale, institutionalized abuse of children by several Catholic entities was quite some time ago. It's quite obvious there are ''names'' who shall be exposed given a thorough investigation of this vile situation. 

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Bridge of Djoum
On 17/05/2019 at 05:29, Inch Hearts said:

I don’t feel the club should be done for horrific historic criminal acts by twisted individuals.

They allowed it to happen. 

 

It wasn't individuals, it was a group of people operating over many years. 

 

This group was linked to other serial offenders in England.

 

There is another strong allegation that members of the clergy in the west of Scotland were involved, also high ranking members in other parts of the country, including the leader of the Catholic church in Scotland. 

 

 

This was not ''individuals''. Celtic FC allowed it to happen within their organization.

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Bridge of Djoum
On 17/05/2019 at 06:55, Rudy T said:

 

What? It’s not point scoring in any way it’s an example of how a responsible club has behaved under similar circumstances. Highlighting Celtics failure to act appropriately with regards to the victims. If Celtic as a club have nothing to hide they would’ve acted in a similar way. City were unaware of what had gone on, and could easily have claimed no responsibility, they didn’t they stood up and did the right thing.

 

I don’t really care if Celtic deny knowledge of it, but as the victims were part of their youth set up they should help these guys. It’s the victims that need help that should never come before the reputation of a multi million pound business.

Exactly. That is no definition of point scoring.

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Bridge of Djoum
On 17/05/2019 at 06:46, WageThief said:

 

Quite a rare moment for a Pope to showcase human traits!

 

Lest we forget....

Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-R24391,_Konkordats

 

 

What is the 2nd pic, mate? what's the context?

 

Edit... saw your link.

Edited by Bridge of Djoum
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12 minutes ago, WageThief said:

 

You didn't know what it was and now you are taking the moral high ground about it being brought up (as a vague joke) while accusing others of taking the moral high ground?  Seriously?

 

The Jesus quote is quite a stupid one in the context of a thread about child abuse.  Fortunately our law is not predicated on such nonsense (completely!).

 

I'm not sure where the Jesus quote leaves the many people (including Celtic fans) who fought in WW2 and in your battle for the moral high ground but "love thy enemy" and all that.  Unless your enemy is a Nazi.  Or a paedophile, presumably.

 

 

 

 

I don’t really want the moral high ground.

 

I’m simply tired of all this ‘any excuse to hate’ stuff. And that is most definitely not aimed at you. It’s not why I am a football fan. I hope no one brings that attitude to Hampden, but I imagine some might.

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Bridge of Djoum
21 hours ago, Ribble said:

 

So say you have a business and decide to sponsor a boys club with strips and pre-season trips, do you become liable if one of the coaches abuses a kid?

What if you knew an organization with very close links to you committed offences, you allowed it to happen within your institution, and did nothing?

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davemclaren
4 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

What is the 2nd pic, mate? what's the context?

The vatican was more successful than the UK in getting a good deal from Hitler. 

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davemclaren
3 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

What if you knew an organization with very close links to you committed offences, you allowed it to happen within your institution, and did nothing?

It’s symptomatic of the times as the Jimmy Saville case showed. 

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Bridge of Djoum
3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

The vatican was more successful than the UK in getting a good deal from Hitler. 

Gonna have a read about that, now. Looks interesting. Who knew Saturday was a school day? Thank you, Kickback.

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Bridge of Djoum
3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

It’s symptomatic of the times as the Jimmy Saville case showed. 

Very true. I also believe these things don't disappear overnight. 

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On 17/05/2019 at 11:03, Jambo66 said:

I agree with this.  If Celtic come straight out and take responsibility, it then becomes a matter of simply how much compensation they require to pay.  What Celtic (and any other organisation in similar circumstances) would want to do is reach an agreement on compensation which may or may not include some admission of responsibility.

 

It is not certain that the courts would hold Celtic liable for anything, so I would be surprised if they unilaterally accepted responsibility - that just increases the amount of compensation they end up paying.

They will be vicariously liable for acts of employees or those contracted to the club

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17 minutes ago, 4marsbars said:

 

I’m simply tired of all this ‘any excuse to hate’ stuff. And that is most definitely not aimed at you. It’s not why I am a football fan. I hope no one brings that attitude to Hampden, but I imagine some might.

 

Fair enough and I know what you mean.  I think there are better examples of people hating for nothing in the Celtic famine strip thread though.

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51 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

Gonna have a read about that, now. Looks interesting. Who knew Saturday was a school day? Thank you, Kickback.

 

If you liked that, then this one will blow your mind!  If only those who shouted about 1690 would read about it instead...

 

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pope-supported-the-protestant-king-william-26288767.html

 

 

 

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On 17/05/2019 at 11:17, Inch Hearts said:

This shouldn’t be used in any way as a point scoring exercise.

I'm with you inch and your sentiment.

 

Paedophiles are cunning and get themselves involved with organisations where they can access children.

 

Celtic like many organisations may not have dealt with it properly .

 

I hate the paedo chants from any support.

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21 minutes ago, jake said:

I'm with you inch and your sentiment.

 

Paedophiles are cunning and get themselves involved with organisations where they can access children.

 

Celtic like many organisations may not have dealt with it properly .

 

I hate the paedo chants from any support.

 

This.

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maroonsgotop
5 hours ago, 4marsbars said:

 

What’s that got to do with anything? 

suggest you read the full thread especially on this page (2)

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22 hours ago, OTT said:

Everything about that club is Celtic related. The name, the colours, the using of Celtic facilities, the relationship between coaches and the club (on a professional basis I mean). I don't think its too much of a jump to believe that there was money moving from the football club to the boys club. This won't be too hard to investigate as there will no doubt be records proving/ disproving this theory. 

 

Celtic allowed this boys club resources and lent them its name to help it grow and attract talent. This was a boys club set up purely for the betterment of Celtic football club. Celtic should acknowledge this, and offer compensation to the victims. Continuing to force the victims to chase this puts them through pain and anguish. If they were the club they insist they are, they would do right by the victims.  

 

If this was Hearts, I'd want us to do the right thing and act in an honourable way to finally close the chapter so everyone can move on. 

 

Celtic Boys Club was the Celtic academy. 

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21 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Celtic Boys Club was the Celtic academy. 

 

So then there isn't any question about liability.

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davemclaren
10 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

So then there isn't any question about liability.

Except it isn’t really true. 

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Forever Hearts
10 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Except it isn’t really true. 

Who paid the Celtic Boys Club coaches wages? 

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