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European Elections


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JudyJudyJudy
On 28/05/2019 at 08:17, JamboX2 said:

 

The EU elections to me raised two major issues but not for the Tories (their vote held up better than elsewhere in the UK!). The questions are for Labour and the Greens:

 

1. Greens - the only Green Party in Europe to not see a significant increase in their vote share. Why is that? What is it that Patrick Harvie is not doing which is causing them to be stagnant at a time when Green politics are on the up? Even in England the Greens had a hige boost in support. 

 

The Scottish Greens need to start flexing their muscle. Labour are clearly struggling and yet they show no signs of doing anything. LibDems gaining that extra seat in Scotland is damning to the Greens given they are smaller in Holyrood than the Greens.

 

It might just be time for Harvie and the Scottish Greens to start distinguishing themselves from the SNP and showing some clear "Green" water between them on domestic policy, EU politics and on issues around independence. I say this because their website does have very different policies from the SNP posted as their current political position. Why then are these radical, green ideas not landing? Patrick Harvie has some big questions over his leadership strategy to answer. 

 

2. Scottish Labour - The Leonard experiment is officially a failure. The slight increase in vote share won by Dugdale in 2017 has been lost along with Britain's most experienced MEP. Leonard and the CfS have failed on their core message and are only going backwards; even on the significant party autonomy the party achieved in 2014 it looks as though Leonard is going backwards:

 

- refers to himself as the leader in Scotland not leader of the Scottish Labour Party

- used campaign slogans and lines designed for England and Wales where Farage and not Sturgeon was the key opponent

- adopted a low key approach to the constitutional position when raised.

 

Policy wise at home there are good positions being adopted:

 

- £5 a week child benefit top up

- increasing the top rate of income tax 

- increased investment in education

- opposed to scrapping APD

- nationalising Scot Rail 

- changing Scottish Government procurement laws to demand living wage for all public sector contracts.

 

There is a prospectus but it's barely spole about because Leonard is a toom tabbard, the forgotten man. He is a very intelligent man and someone who has a part to play, leader isn't the thing he should be doing. He and CfS are taking Scottish Labour backwards. He should step down and someone like Sarwar, Marra, Sweeney, Murray or Bailley should stand. The party has a lot of ex-MPs and MSPs who should be considered as well for leadership or running for seats, David Martin being one.

 

The saving grace for Scottish Labour at present is the lack of increase in support for the Greens.

 

That was my big take in Scotland: Green and Labour have big questions over their leadership and party strategy. 

Very good posting . The Green party should be capitalising in Scotland but they arent. 

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The Mighty Thor
8 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

All this nice stuff about the LIBDEMS. I'll never forget those lying *******s in coalition with the Conservative party. If they hadn't kissed Cameron's scummy bollocks we wouldn't be in this position in this position in the first place. Party of remain my ****ing arse.

The first post of yours displaying a modicum of sense.

 

Giddy up ?

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7 hours ago, coconut doug said:

Many explanations have now been offered to you to explain what happened to the Green Vote. The share of the vote may give an indication as to its likely success but the total number voting Green gives a better picture of that parties popularity. The Green vote in Scotland increased by more than 25%. That means the greens are significantly more popular than they were in the last election.

 

It is the only measure of success as it dictates whether you win a seat or not. They may have increased the number of votes won but they still only achieved 8.2% of the votes cast and therefore did not do much better than they did in 2014.

7 hours ago, coconut doug said:

              The voteshare percentage has been distorted because of the peculiarly British/Scottish context. Turnout is up because of voter dissatisfaction at the failure to deliver Brexit. The increased turnout IMO can be entirely explained by this phenomenon. That desire to register a complaint about the failure to Brexit has a reducing effect on the vote share fall all other parties including the Greens.

 

An avowedly anti-Brexit party had its votes squeezed for being anti-Brexit in a referendum where Brexit was the major concnern? 

 

7 hours ago, coconut doug said:

   It is true that the rise in support for the Greens was higher in England than in Scotland but it is also true that the rise in UKIP/Brexit vote was higher in Scotland. Local variations were also significant as was the likelyhood of the Greens actually winning seats. Most significantly in England there was no established proEU proGreen party like the SNP for those dissatisfied with Con/Lab to put their vote. 

 

The SNP are not a green party. They are a nationalist party, civic nationalist. Their reason for existing is not to make the world a greener place. It is to have an independent Scottish state. 

 

If the Scottish Greens had perhaps been better at pushing their green agenda and pushing their different, more left wing views on the EU (i.e. opposed to TTIP, opposed to state aid rules, want to democratise EU institutions) you may have seen them receive an increase in their vote share to win a seat by offering an alternative. 

 

My criticism of their campaign is simply that they appear - given results - to not have sold themselves well enough nor take advantage of the rising concerns around climate change to win a seat. 

 

If you are concerned with green issues first and foremost  do you back the SNP (pro-tax breaks for North Sea oil, happy to offer more licenses for oil and gas exploration and pro-Grangemouth importing shale from America) or the Greens who oppose all of that. My point to you is they did not sell these aspects of their agenda well enough and therefore did not capitalise on the Green wave which swept europe.

 

7 hours ago, coconut doug said:

What is not true is that the presence or otherwise of Eurosceptic parties in other countries can be realistically compared to the situation in the UK 

 

Not in the fact that we are leaving, but in the sense that a lot of major EU states have anti-EU populists who are being combatted by mainstream parties engaged in trying to manage change jn Europe whilst keeping the base happy. Macron for one, Conte another.

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8 hours ago, coconut doug said:

Were you not telling us previously that the SNP would persist after Indy?

 

Yes. For the first decade or so. Why break up the band straight away when you've won your greatest victory?

 

8 hours ago, coconut doug said:

Labour are not near the centre left whatever that is. The Blairites are to the right and Corbynistas significantly to the left. The Corbynistas want a rerun of the seventies and eighties while the Blairites are just Red Tories. There is no place for a party with this composition in the modern world.

 

Labour has always been a broad church. Right back to Attlee managing Morrison on the right and Bevan on the left. Always. From it's inception. What's the substantive difference in that divide and between having folk like Sandra White, Mhairi Black and Tommy Shepherd and Mike Russell, Ian Blackford and the Ewings? Those again are people on the left and right. Black would never support Mike Russell's pamphlet which called for the privatisation of the NHS and it must be uneasy for her to adopt economic positions which are exceptionally New Labour.

 

The SNP are a broad church. A big tent. Encompassing left and right of the spectrum. In many ways broader than Labour. Is there a place for such a broad church as that?

 

8 hours ago, coconut doug said:

They stand for nothing and everything and have been rumbled by the electorate.

Have you not yet understood the meaninglessness of your nationalism term? Can't you see that the reason the SNP, Greens and liberals all increased their vote in Scotland is because they have an internationalist agenda?

 

Internationalism is not dependent on the EU. Iceland has left wing and right wing internationalist parties. So does Norway. They are outwith the EU. 

 

Internationalism is a concept rooted in Labour going back to the International Brigades and beyond to the International Socialist Conferences. Internationalism is an ideal of cooperation across boundaries. I've no issue with this. I'm all for it. 

 

My point to you would be cross boundary working is best avhieved via political unions.

 

8 hours ago, coconut doug said:

       The reason Labour lost in Scotland was surely because of their pro Brexit statements and their collusion with the Tories. It might have gone down better in Wigan or Rotherham than it did in Scotland but essentially they took a view on Brexit that was designed to limit damage to their party just the same as the Tories did.

 

Agreed. It was a bad message in Scotland and should not have been the Scottish Party position.

 

8 hours ago, coconut doug said:

The tried to facilitate Brexit prioritising the needs of their sitting MPs in Brexit constituencies. There were none of those in Scotland.

  Once again they backed the wrong horse and once again they were virtually indistinguishable from the Tories.

 

Well except from the fact the Tories are actively pushing a no deal exit. 

 

8 hours ago, coconut doug said:

Leonard may be all kinds of eejit but even he cannot be blamed for not running a strong campaign when they had no clear campaign message. Some want to oppose Brexit and some of those want a 2nd referendum while others in that group do not, some want to work with the Tories and get the best deal possible whilst others want No deal.

 

Yet to meet a Labour member or voter who wants no deal. The preserve of Kate Hoey who should've been expelled for her work with Farage years ago.

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8 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Very good posting . The Green party should be capitalising in Scotland but they arent. 

They will, post independence.

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16 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

All this nice stuff about the LIBDEMS. I'll never forget those lying *******s in coalition with the Conservative party. If they hadn't kissed Cameron's scummy bollocks we wouldn't be in this position in this position in the first place. Party of remain my ****ing arse.

I agree and disagree. They only delayed it, but in a way to the UKs favour. If it happened sooner, Scotland would be independent already.

But the rest, you're right, I remember!

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CavySlaveJambo
4 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Internationalism is not dependent on the EU. Iceland has left wing and right wing internationalist parties. So does Norway. They are outwith the EU. 

 

Norway and Iceland. Probably not the best example here, because both have full access to the EU Single Market via being EEA members. 

 

Also in 2016 Farage was talking Soft Brexit for the referendum. So some Brexit Party/Tory voters may well be soft leave voters. 

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coconut doug
On 30/05/2019 at 00:36, JamboX2 said:

 

It is the only measure of success as it dictates whether you win a seat or not. They may have increased the number of votes won but they still only achieved 8.2% of the votes cast and therefore did not do much better than they did in 2014.

No, improvement is a measure of success. It shows you are winning the argument and bringing people over to your view. A 25% increase in your vote may suggest you have a strategy likely to bring success. 

 

An avowedly anti-Brexit party had its votes squeezed for being anti-Brexit in a referendum where Brexit was the major concnern? 

Their votes were not squeezed. They increased their vote by more than 25%.

 

The SNP are not a green party. They are a nationalist party, civic nationalist. Their reason for existing is not to make the world a greener place. It is to have an independent Scottish state. 

The SNP sit amongst the Green parties at the European parliament i believe. If they are "nationalist" shouldn't they sit with the nationalist parties. They pursue green objectives through green policies e.g renewable energy R+D investment same as they do with social objectives e.g. by raising tax to higher rates and by trying to ameliorate the worst effects of Tory welfare cuts. Greens and Socialists know this, that's why so many of them vote SNP.

  It clearly is the SNP policy to make the world a greener place https://www.snp.org/our-vision/environment/ 

Spelling out their vision and even using your words.

 

If the Scottish Greens had perhaps been better at pushing their green agenda and pushing their different, more left wing views on the EU (i.e. opposed to TTIP, opposed to state aid rules, want to democratise EU institutions) you may have seen them receive an increase in their vote share to win a seat by offering an alternative. 

 

A quick look on their website and i could only find 41 references opposing TTIP and numerous more for the others. Maybe their problem is they dont get a proper platform in Scotland. 

 

My criticism of their campaign is simply that they appear - given results - to not have sold themselves well enough nor take advantage of the rising concerns around climate change to win a seat.

People know that Indy is near and that once achieved there will be better opportunities to pursue Green policies. 

 

If you are concerned with green issues first and foremost  do you back the SNP (pro-tax breaks for North Sea oil, happy to offer more licenses for oil and gas exploration and pro-Grangemouth importing shale from America) or the Greens who oppose all of that. My point to you is they did not sell these aspects of their agenda well enough and therefore did not capitalise on the Green wave which swept europe.

Being Green is a relative concept and has to be balanced with earnings. It will also take time to implement as well. Green fundamentalism is not very popular.

 

Not in the fact that we are leaving, but in the sense that a lot of major EU states have anti-EU populists who are being combatted by mainstream parties engaged in trying to manage change jn Europe whilst keeping the base happy. Macron for one, Conte another.

This is not in any way comparable to the UK No country in Europe wants to leave the EU and such a view is not taken seriously but we voted to do just that. England and Wales are the outliers here with England in particular voting heavily for for so called populist  parties with strong far right elements i.e Brexit, Ukip and Conservatives. 

 

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maroonlegions
On 29/05/2019 at 10:24, SE16 3LN said:

All this nice stuff about the LIBDEMS. I'll never forget those lying *******s in coalition with the Conservative party. If they hadn't kissed Cameron's scummy bollocks we wouldn't be in this position in this position in the first place. Party of remain my ****ing arse.

Bang on mate, the yellow tories , like the red tories or Blairlittes within the Labour party.

 

MInd you the Brexit party are slowly getting exposed for the kind of vermin that they attract, apart from racist leader.

 

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