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You should be proud to be British


jumpship

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People are people, regardless where they are from, so nationality shouldn't really come into it, IMO.

 

Proud to be British?  Not particularly because it's not the country that makes the decisions but whichever government is ruling at the time.

 

Conquering and exploiting vast swathes of the world?  Not particularly proud of that.  Spreading "civilisation" to these parts of the Globe?  A wee bit, if truth be told.

 

Standing alone when Europe's collective arse collapsed in 1940?  Very much, but ironically Britain was only able to due to the Empire.  So without the Empire, I'm sure we would have still stood, but for how long is debatable.  Ironic because despite not being pro empire, if it had a destiny perhaps it was to stop fascism and nazism?  Same argument could be made for Stalin I guess.

 

Post WW2 the Atlee Governmemnt and the NHS, democratic socialism and the welfare state are amazing achievements.  

 

But the constants such as the monarchy, the class system (House of Lords, Oxbridge, Eton etc) mean Britain is run by a deluded oligarchy.  Some outwith this oligarchy seem to like this, fawn over it, aid and abet it for some scraps from the table, or a pat on the head and a sugar lump.  It's, imo, misplaced loyalty, and self defeating.

 

Which leads us to where we are now - a laughing stock as the nation self harms itself in full view of a global audience.

 

Britain has done good, has done bad, but the proudest i could be about Britain would be if it removed its ruling elite and properly democratised.

 

All the rest is just bullshit to fuel jingoistic sentiment, deflecting the gaze of Britons from the real issues.  Sad really.

 

All in my opinion of course, which, like everyone else's, isn't really worth much.

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jack D and coke
57 minutes ago, Boris said:

People are people, regardless where they are from, so nationality shouldn't really come into it, IMO.

 

Proud to be British?  Not particularly because it's not the country that makes the decisions but whichever government is ruling at the time.

 

Conquering and exploiting vast swathes of the world?  Not particularly proud of that.  Spreading "civilisation" to these parts of the Globe?  A wee bit, if truth be told.

 

Standing alone when Europe's collective arse collapsed in 1940?  Very much, but ironically Britain was only able to due to the Empire.  So without the Empire, I'm sure we would have still stood, but for how long is debatable.  Ironic because despite not being pro empire, if it had a destiny perhaps it was to stop fascism and nazism?  Same argument could be made for Stalin I guess.

 

Post WW2 the Atlee Governmemnt and the NHS, democratic socialism and the welfare state are amazing achievements.  

 

But the constants such as the monarchy, the class system (House of Lords, Oxbridge, Eton etc) mean Britain is run by a deluded oligarchy.  Some outwith this oligarchy seem to like this, fawn over it, aid and abet it for some scraps from the table, or a pat on the head and a sugar lump.  It's, imo, misplaced loyalty, and self defeating.

 

Which leads us to where we are now - a laughing stock as the nation self harms itself in full view of a global audience.

 

Britain has done good, has done bad, but the proudest i could be about Britain would be if it removed its ruling elite and properly democratised.

 

All the rest is just bullshit to fuel jingoistic sentiment, deflecting the gaze of Britons from the real issues.  Sad really.

 

All in my opinion of course, which, like everyone else's, isn't really worth much.

Very well put Boris, 100% agree. I’m not proud of anything the people in these islands have done but I’m grateful for sacrifices etc. The royal fawning in particular gives me the absolute boak and like you I believe it needs hauled from the jaws of the Eton types and upper class twits that have far too much influence. These people don’t know they’re born. 

57 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Nah. Definitely Scotland. 

 

Plenty of Uncle Tom’s up here. 

:spoton:

 

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SwindonJambo
54 minutes ago, Boris said:

People are people, regardless where they are from, so nationality shouldn't really come into it, IMO.

 

Proud to be British?  Not particularly because it's not the country that makes the decisions but whichever government is ruling at the time.

 

Conquering and exploiting vast swathes of the world?  Not particularly proud of that.  Spreading "civilisation" to these parts of the Globe?  A wee bit, if truth be told.

 

Standing alone when Europe's collective arse collapsed in 1940?  Very much, but ironically Britain was only able to due to the Empire.  So without the Empire, I'm sure we would have still stood, but for how long is debatable.  Ironic because despite not being pro empire, if it had a destiny perhaps it was to stop fascism and nazism?  Same argument could be made for Stalin I guess.

 

Post WW2 the Atlee Governmemnt and the NHS, democratic socialism and the welfare state are amazing achievements.  

 

But the constants such as the monarchy, the class system (House of Lords, Oxbridge, Eton etc) mean Britain is run by a deluded oligarchy.  Some outwith this oligarchy seem to like this, fawn over it, aid and abet it for some scraps from the table, or a pat on the head and a sugar lump.  It's, imo, misplaced loyalty, and self defeating.

 

Which leads us to where we are now - a laughing stock as the nation self harms itself in full view of a global audience.

 

Britain has done good, has done bad, but the proudest i could be about Britain would be if it removed its ruling elite and properly democratised.

 

All the rest is just bullshit to fuel jingoistic sentiment, deflecting the gaze of Britons from the real issues.  Sad really.

 

All in my opinion of course, which, like everyone else's, isn't really worth much.

 

That's a mostly decent and we'll put post but I strongly disagree about Stalin  While I full acknowledge his contribution to the result of WW2, he was an extremely cruel and violent individual, responsible for millions of unnecessary deaths among his own people. His soldiers raped their way through the Eastern part of the Nazi regime and afterwards he enforced Communism Dictatorships and Police States  on Central & Eastern Nation States. All were very poor with only the ruling elite having any decent standard of living at all. I have several long time Polish friends and they all hated that era.

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1 minute ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

That's a mostly decent and we'll put post but I strongly disagree about Stalin  While I full acknowledge his contribution to the result of WW2, he was an extremely cruel and violent individual, responsible for millions of unnecessary deaths among his own people. His soldiers raped their way through the Eastern part of the Nazi regime and afterwards he enforced Communism Dictatorships and Police States  on Central & Eastern Nation States. All were very poor with only the ruling elite having any decent standard of living at all. I have several long time Polish friends and they all hated that era.

 

My point was that, like the British Empire, was that a necessary evil to stop the greater evil of nazism and fascism?  I'm not trying to eulogise him, far from it.  Making an extreme comparison perhaps.

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Well, apart from a small handful of posters, it appears that most folk haven't understood the question on this thread, which relates to whether one can/should have pride in their country or not, turning it instead into another bore-tastic "Do I consider myself Scottish or British?" thread. Then again, the OP could perhaps have phrased the question better and asked whether the person had pride in whichever nationality they identify themselves as.

 

There are aspects of the UK and Scotland which I am happy about, proud of even, aspects which I am most certainly not proud of. But proud of my whole nationality? Never. That way leads to blindness towards a country's faults and the faults of its inhabitants.

 

Let me give you one personal example. In my spare time I pick up litter. It's a rubbish hobby, I admit ;), but I try to do my best for the environment, to make up for the inconsiderate folk who throw away rubbish and fly tip. And, without any hesitation, I can say that the folk in this country are among the worst in the developed world I know of for throwing away litter (and I've travelled a lot). Yesterday I saw a lassie getting on the bus throwing away a large piece of paper and she was literally within two paces of a litter bin. I'm used to it now, I just try to do what I can to redress the situation.

 

How can I be proud of being Scottish, or say I am, in this case? Nope, I'll just go on being content that Scottish tradition and culture are interesting, I'll wear my kilt when I'm travelling, I'll look fondly and with admiration on the long-time socialist "take care of folk" attitude that we have in this country and our often internationalist approach, etc. etc. but I'm not "proud" to be Scottish. My rubbish example was just one example of why that is the case. There are a *lot* of inconsiderate folk about (don't get me started on non-blue badge holders parking in blue badge parking spots, for example, which is rife, or on a more serious level, the fighting and intimidation that goes on down town during the weekends or the number of suicides we are experiencing in our society due to mental health issues).

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SwindonJambo
18 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

My point was that, like the British Empire, was that a necessary evil to stop the greater evil of nazism and fascism?  I'm not trying to eulogise him, far from it.  Making an extreme comparison perhaps.

 

We certainly needed his military might to help defeat the Nazis, something that many Americans and particularly jingoistic moronic little Englander football fans seem ignorant of.

 

But the smaller nations to the East he took from the Nazis simply swapped one unelected authoritarian dictatorship for another and it lasted over 40 years! 

 

As for the other stuff, I'm totally with you on the fawning over the Royal Family, the Eton/Harrow type establishment and all that nonsense. Embarrassing and not good for the country at all. We should be a meritocracy where talent gets you ahead rather than what you're accidentally born into. In that regard, we've spent the last 20 years going backwards.

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18 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Well, apart from a small handful of posters, it appears that most folk haven't understood the question on this thread, which relates to whether one can/should have pride in their country or not, turning it instead into another bore-tastic "Do I consider myself Scottish or British?" thread. Then again, the OP could perhaps have phrased the question better and asked whether the person had pride in whichever nationality they identify themselves as.

 

There are aspects of the UK and Scotland which I am happy about, proud of even, aspects which I am most certainly not proud of. But proud of my whole nationality? Never. That way leads to blindness towards a country's faults and the faults of its inhabitants.

 

Let me give you one personal example. In my spare time I pick up litter. It's a rubbish hobby, I admit ;), but I try to do my best for the environment, to make up for the inconsiderate folk who throw away rubbish and fly tip. And, without any hesitation, I can say that the folk in this country are among the worst in the developed world I know of for throwing away litter (and I've travelled a lot). Yesterday I saw a lassie getting on the bus throwing away a large piece of paper and she was literally within two paces of a litter bin. I'm used to it now, I just try to do what I can to redress the situation.

 

How can I be proud of being Scottish, or say I am, in this case? Nope, I'll just go on being content that Scottish tradition and culture are interesting, I'll wear my kilt when I'm travelling, I'll look fondly and with admiration on the long-time socialist "take care of folk" attitude that we have in this country and our often internationalist approach, etc. etc. but I'm not "proud" to be Scottish. My rubbish example was just one example of why that is the case. There are a *lot* of inconsiderate folk about (don't get me started on non-blue badge holders parking in blue badge parking spots, for example, which is rife, or on a more serious level, the fighting and intimidation that goes on down town during the weekends or the number of suicides we are experiencing in our society due to mental health issues).

 

Good post.

 

As for the bit in bold, my view is that this has become more prevalent because as a society (Scottish, British, Western European?) we have become more selfish due to the selfish policies of Government.  I'm alright Jack etc etc etc etc   So, unsurprisingly to some, I'll blame Thatcher and all her subsequent political descendants! 

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4 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

We certainly needed his military might to help defeat the Nazis, something that many Americans and particularly jingoistic moronic little Englander football fans seem ignorant of.

 

But the smaller nations to the East he took from the Nazis simply swapped one unelected authoritarian dictatorship for another and it lasted over 40 years! 

 

 

Not going to argue with you there, but would point out that Poland wasn't exactly a model democracy pre-war.

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Harry Potter
17 hours ago, jumpship said:

You should be proud to be British, was the response I got from a colleague at work when talking about Brexit.

 

I believe Brexit is going to be a disaster,  he was informing me that it's going to be freedom away from corrupt Europe. 

 

The Brexit chat was boring as it was going around in circles. 

 

So decided to change the subject and chat about pride in British history. Pulled up what I thought would be a few negative Google searches.. 

The conversation darken as I shared atrocity after atrocity. 

 

Angry response was, "that was f-ing years ago. "

 

I stupidly mentioned Iraq and Afghanistan,  along with the training and selling weapons to the Saudi regime. 

 

Conversation ended. 

 

 

So, Are you proud of being British?

Are you proud to be British ?

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SwindonJambo
6 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Not going to argue with you there, but would point out that Poland wasn't exactly a model democracy pre-war.

Indeed it wasn't as the huge amount of emigration to the US in that shows. It's a country with a very troubled history but lots of potential, finally being fulfilled today after 30 years of open democracy and free markets. It's biggest problem now is its low birth rate, which will impact on the future labour supply.

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I'm going to paraphrase Bill Hicks here but I find it difficult to be proud of being British. Just as it's difficult to be proud of being Scottish. Essentially, I'm taking pride in something I had absolutely no control or input in. I'm basically proud of the fact that my parents shagged here. That's not much to be proud of. 

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4 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

Indeed it wasn't as the huge amount of emigration to the US in that shows. It's a country with a very troubled history but lots of potential, finally being fulfilled today after 30 years of open democracy and free markets. It's biggest problem now is its low birth rate, which will impact on the future labour supply.

 

How ironic if we all go over there to be plumbers etc.

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AlphonseCapone
6 minutes ago, Normthebarman said:

I'm going to paraphrase Bill Hicks here but I find it difficult to be proud of being British. Just as it's difficult to be proud of being Scottish. Essentially, I'm taking pride in something I had absolutely no control or input in. I'm basically proud of the fact that my parents shagged here. That's not much to be proud of. 

 

I understand the logic of what you're saying but it isn't really something that works on logic is it? What you are saying can be equally applied to being a Hearts fan. Why be proud or happy about what a bunch of strange men that you don't know have done just because you happen to be born in West Edinburgh (roughly maybe) ?

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Ron Burgundy
Just now, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I understand the logic of what you're saying but it isn't really something that works on logic is it? What you are saying can be equally applied to being a Hearts fan. Why be proud or happy about what a bunch of strange men that you don't know have done just because you happen to be born in West Edinburgh (roughly maybe) ?

You can choose your team, you don't have to be born in West Edinburgh to support Hearts. Can't choose where you were born.

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The Real Maroonblood
49 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Well, apart from a small handful of posters, it appears that most folk haven't understood the question on this thread, which relates to whether one can/should have pride in their country or not, turning it instead into another bore-tastic "Do I consider myself Scottish or British?" thread. Then again, the OP could perhaps have phrased the question better and asked whether the person had pride in whichever nationality they identify themselves as.

 

There are aspects of the UK and Scotland which I am happy about, proud of even, aspects which I am most certainly not proud of. But proud of my whole nationality? Never. That way leads to blindness towards a country's faults and the faults of its inhabitants.

 

Let me give you one personal example. In my spare time I pick up litter. It's a rubbish hobby, I admit ;), but I try to do my best for the environment, to make up for the inconsiderate folk who throw away rubbish and fly tip. And, without any hesitation, I can say that the folk in this country are among the worst in the developed world I know of for throwing away litter (and I've travelled a lot). Yesterday I saw a lassie getting on the bus throwing away a large piece of paper and she was literally within two paces of a litter bin. I'm used to it now, I just try to do what I can to redress the situation.

 

How can I be proud of being Scottish, or say I am, in this case? Nope, I'll just go on being content that Scottish tradition and culture are interesting, I'll wear my kilt when I'm travelling, I'll look fondly and with admiration on the long-time socialist "take care of folk" attitude that we have in this country and our often internationalist approach, etc. etc. but I'm not "proud" to be Scottish. My rubbish example was just one example of why that is the case. There are a *lot* of inconsiderate folk about (don't get me started on non-blue badge holders parking in blue badge parking spots, for example, which is rife, or on a more serious level, the fighting and intimidation that goes on down town during the weekends or the number of suicides we are experiencing in our society due to mental health issues).

Your  third paragraph really pisses me right off.

Unfortunatley the sun brings out the scumbags as well.

The amount of litter discarded by them is appalling.

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AlphonseCapone
4 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

You can choose your team, you don't have to be born in West Edinburgh to support Hearts. Can't choose where you were born.

 

You can, it's not a perfect comparison but how many choose their team as opposed to be born into it (either where you are born or who you are born to). 

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SwindonJambo
20 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

How ironic if we all go over there to be plumbers etc.

:D That's funny. Could easily happen too!

 

I know they had recruitment problems in the run up to Euro 2012 because the required skills were largely elsewhere. 

 

They're partly addressing their labour shortages by taking in immigrants from neighbouring Ukraine. Culturally similar and easy to assimilate. 

 

I have to say that they're still quite behind on racial and cultural tolerance and homophobia as are the rest of the region, something the more enlightened ones are none too proud of, getting back to national pride. 

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Ibrahim Tall

I don’t see myself as ‘British’ so I don’t really have an opinion either way to be honest. 

I’m Scottish and so are my parents/grandparents, it’s not an ‘anti-English/Welsh/N Irish’ thing just my connection is as vague to those countries as it is with France/Germany etc.

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SwindonJambo
19 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

You can choose your team, you don't have to be born in West Edinburgh to support Hearts. Can't choose where you were born.

 

 Correct. I chose Hearts of my own volition a week after I arrived in Edinburgh aged 18. I'm originally from South Lanarkshire. I'm proud to be a part of it all but not remotely so our arsehole element, who are an embarrassment.

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Governor Tarkin

@Boris

It was a long post so I'm not going to quote it, but it but I have to agree with the majority of what you are saying. 

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Not at all proud to be British but at times think our democracy is worth defending, flaws and all. There is a serious need for reform though. We are a far more inclusive society than many others and more so than many admit. It feels like this is being challenged though.

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George Orwell, Tony Benn, Winston Churchill, John Maynard Keynes, Oscar Wilde: dirty barsteward public schoolboys.

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J.T.F.Robertson

 

"Proud" of a random, biological, geographical accident I had no choice in? :lol: 

 

 

 

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I count myself as British and Scottish.  Having lived in Scotland, England and then Scotland again, and due to having a Scottish accent, I mostly refer to myself as Scottish.  I won't take offence at being called British though, and will refer to myself as British depending on who I'm talking to.

 

You are born where you're born due to a set of completely random and out-of-your-control circumstances.  If the result of that makes you ashamed or proud, then bash on, but having had no say in the matter, it doesn't really bother me much.

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27 minutes ago, tian447 said:

I count myself as British and Scottish.  Having lived in Scotland, England and then Scotland again, and due to having a Scottish accent, I mostly refer to myself as Scottish.  I won't take offence at being called British though, and will refer to myself as British depending on who I'm talking to.

 

You are born where you're born due to a set of completely random and out-of-your-control circumstances.  If the result of that makes you ashamed or proud, then bash on, but having had no say in the matter, it doesn't really bother me much.

 

I am not sure the place of my birth was the foundation on which my pride of Country arose For me sitting in a classroom and hearing how the people of my national land had explored, commercialised, and fought valiantly everywhere they went was imbedded in my mind along with the songs of glory, and pictures of kilted soldiers fighting for king and Country. Being raised during a war and the subsequent victory was the epitomy of pride.In later years although not kilted I served in a country that didn't want us there, and later found that neither did many of the politicians  of my own and other countries. Then as time went on travel, and eye witness to some of the things one glorified were seen in a whole different light. Now in old age  pride of country is not that important, a sense of ones self worth, and the ability to look back with pride at ones own achievements is much more satisfying

 

 

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J.T.F.Robertson
1 minute ago, bobsharp said:

 

I am not sure the place of my birth was the foundation on which my pride of Country arose For me sitting in a classroom and hearing how the people of my national land had explored, commercialised, and fought valiantly everywhere they went was imbedded in my mind along with the songs of glory, and pictures of kilted soldiers fighting for king and Country. Being raised during a war and the subsequent victory was the epitomy of pride.In later years although not kilted I served in a country that didn't want us there, and later found that neither did many of the politicians  of my own and other countries. Then as time went on travel, and eye witness to some of the things one glorified were seen in a whole different light. Now in old age  pride of country is not that important, a sense of ones self worth, and the ability to look back with pride at ones own achievements is much more satisfying

 

 

 

Pretty much what I was trying to convey, Bob. ;)

 

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Why would anyone identify themselves through their nation of birth. I know people from all over the world and some are roasters and some great people but that’s not defined by their country of birth it’s who they are as a person.

 

Britain and it’s individual parts are so divided now by recent referendums there’s certainly no identity to being British. 

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