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Heading the ball


DesertDawg

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The passing of Billy McNeill and Freddie Glidden raises once again raises the potential risks encountered by footballers in heading the ball.....especially since in the early careers of these guys they were heading something akin to a cannonball when it was soaking wet.

 

Willie Bauld and Jeff Astle come to mind too and I'm sure that there were many others.

 

Just a bit of food for thought especially since McNeill spent his last few years suffering from dementia.

 

   

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Does anyone know the cause of Willie Bauld's premature death?  Not implying it had anything to do with heading the ball but I remember as a youngster heading these balls when wet and it was really sore if you got it wrong.

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i wish jj was my dad
26 minutes ago, Kiwidoug said:

Does anyone know the cause of Willie Bauld's premature death?  Not implying it had anything to do with heading the ball but I remember as a youngster heading these balls when wet and it was really sore if you got it wrong.

Heart attack I think. 

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6 hours ago, DesertDawg said:

The passing of Billy McNeill and Freddie Glidden raises once again raises the potential risks encountered by footballers in heading the ball.....especially since in the early careers of these guys they were heading something akin to a cannonball when it was soaking wet.

 

Willie Bauld and Jeff Astle come to mind too and I'm sure that there were many others.

 

Just a bit of food for thought especially since McNeill spent his last few years suffering from dementia.

 

   

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4123437.stm

No difference in the balls really, wet or dry. 

 

You could argue that the new ones are worse as they move faster due to being more aerodynamic and such. The players are also stronger so can kick it harder. 

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upgotheheads

Tommy Smith (Liverpool) Our own John Cummings, Billy McNeil, Frank Kopel, and there have been many others. Three of these were centre halves who in training and playing would have headed a heavier ball than we use today dozens of times a day. American football has a known issue with brain injuries, and they wear helmets. Even playing bounce games with friends on  a regular basis in my 40's I remember coming off with a sore neck if I had headed the ball two or three times in a game.  

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upgotheheads
2 hours ago, Tommy Brown said:

My gran died around 80 years old after a few years of dementia.

Never headed a ball in here life.

 

If you live long enough you'll probably get dementia. It's not whether it's how soon. My Father developed dementia in his early 80's, lived until he was almost 90, and never played football. Many of the footballers we hear about develop dementia prematurely, although Billy McNeil was 79  I believe and John Cummings was 78, they might have lived without dementia for longer.

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Every footballer heads the ball. That is millions of people all over the world from playgrounds to stadiums. Pro's do it day in day out for their entire career. How many die from brain related deaths?

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Information about Dementia available from the Jeff Astle Foundation here:

 

http://www.thejeffastlefoundation.co.uk/about-dementia

 

Doesn't specifically mention heading the ball as a contributory factor. If there was a link, you'd think this Foundation would be shouting it from the rooftops. 

 

What risk factors are there for dementia?

In most cases, it is not possible to identify why someone has developed dementia. However, a small number of factors have been identified that can influence a person’s risk of developing dementia. 

  • Age is the strongest risk factor for dementia. While an unusual diagnosis in younger people, around 1 in 50 of those aged 65 to 70 have some form of dementia, with that number rising to 1 in 5 in people aged over 80
  • Gender can influence risk of dementia, with women slightly more likely to develop dementia than men
  • Genetic studies have identified a small number of genes that can alter a person’s risk of developing dementia. One example is the apolipoprotein E (APOE) gene, which can alter a person’s risk of developing Alzheimer’s disease and vascular dementia
  • Medical problems such as heart disease and high blood pressure can increase risk of developing dementia, in particular vascular dementia
    Dementia risk is also increased in some other conditions, including Down’s syndrome, chronic kidney disease and multiple sclerosis
  • Traumatic brain injury (TBI; head injury) is recognised as the strongest environmental risk factor for dementia. In particular, a form of dementia called chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) is increasingly recognised in people exposed to repetitive TBI, including retired boxers, footballers and rugby players
  • Lifestyle factors including diet, exercise, smoking and alcohol are all recognised to influence risk of dementia, particularly through their effects to increase risk
    of heart and vascular disease. A healthy diet, regular exercise, not-smoking and alcohol in moderation are accepted as ways to limit dementia risk 
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davemclaren
17 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

Its not going to help I don't suppose

You would think not. Whether it’s a significant contributor doesn’t seem clear as yet though. 

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1 hour ago, i8hibsh said:

Every footballer heads the ball. That is millions of people all over the world from playgrounds to stadiums. Pro's do it day in day out for their entire career. How many die from brain related deaths?

 

The ball was much heavier back in the day and became saturated and heavier when wet. It has little similarity to the present day professional ball.

There was another ex-Celtic legend called John McPhail (i think) who had horrible brain complications and abnormalities from repeatedly heading the ball.

Very common in players from the 40's to 60's in particular.

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John Findlay

Plenty people die well before the ages Freddie Glidden and Billy McNeil. My own father died aged 72 of bowel cancer. When your time is up its up.

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FarmerTweedy
1 minute ago, John Findlay said:

Plenty people die well before the ages Freddie Glidden and Billy McNeil. My own father died aged 72 of bowel cancer. When your time is up its up.

Strictly speaking, you're correct, in that when you die, that's it.  There's no way (yet, at least!) to bring a dead person back to life.  However, to suggest (as you appear to be doing) that no people die because of things they've done in their lives, but instead everyone is born with a fixed, but unknown, date and time at which they'll die, regardless of how they live their lives, is clearly nonsense!

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John Findlay
2 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Strictly speaking, you're correct, in that when you die, that's it.  There's no way (yet, at least!) to bring a dead person back to life.  However, to suggest (as you appear to be doing) that no people die because of things they've done in their lives, but instead everyone is born with a fixed, but unknown, date and time at which they'll die, regardless of how they live their lives, is clearly nonsense!

It maybe. Personally I'm not scared of dying. From the day you're are born it's also the day you start dying.

Not everyone's philosophy but it is mine.

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I know the square root of nothing about boxing (and I know that some guys on here, like @AlimOzturk know quite a bit) but, this has got me thinking. If footballers can get dementia from heading a ball, then surely it must be much worse for boxers getting constantly clattered around the head?

 

I’d be interested in folks thoughts on this.

 

Thanks

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1 minute ago, Morgan said:

I know the square root of nothing about boxing (and I know that some guys on here, like @AlimOzturk know quite a bit) but, this has got me thinking. If footballers can get dementia from heading a ball, then surely it must be much worse for boxers getting constantly clattered around the head?

 

I’d be interested in folks thoughts on this.

 

Thanks

 

That's covered by the Traumatic Brain Injury section that I posted above but kind of countermanded by the fact that more women get Dementia than men. 

 

Obviously, avoiding anything that may cause TBI would be a good idea. 

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3 minutes ago, iainmac said:

 

That's covered by the Traumatic Brain Injury section that I posted above but kind of countermanded by the fact that more women get Dementia than men. 

 

Obviously, avoiding anything that may cause TBI would be a good idea. 

Thanks Iain and sorry, I hadn’t opened your link. I’ll have a wee look just now.

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Bazzas right boot
2 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

Every footballer heads the ball. That is millions of people all over the world from playgrounds to stadiums. Pro's do it day in day out for their entire career. How many die from brain related deaths?

 

Google it. 

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Bazzas right boot
23 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

It maybe. Personally I'm not scared of dying. From the day you're are born it's also the day you start dying.

Not everyone's philosophy but it is mine.

 

??

Bet you were a hoot in nursery. 

 

"johny   want to stick that bit of lego up your nose" 

 

"nah, I'm just happy, sitting here, preparing for my eventual death, you should be doing the same" 

 

 

 

 

 

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William H. Bonney
5 hours ago, Tommy Brown said:

My gran died around 80 years old after a few years of dementia.

Never headed a ball in here life.

 

Shite defender then? 

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I don't buy this at all. In some cases there might be some links but I doubt there's any real patterns to be read. Think of all the players who headed balls for fun and never developed anything like dementia.

 

There's people who even today believe it should be banned. Football's are considerably lighter than their earlier ancestors, so I'd imagine even if there was a link, it's not something that's going to escalate in future.

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37 minutes ago, Morgan said:

I know the square root of nothing about boxing (and I know that some guys on here, like @AlimOzturk know quite a bit) but, this has got me thinking. If footballers can get dementia from heading a ball, then surely it must be much worse for boxers getting constantly clattered around the head?

 

I’d be interested in folks thoughts on this.

 

Thanks

 

There is a condition where boxers become punch drunk. I don't know the official name but it is caused by repeated concussions. Only need to look at Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Shane Mosley, Floyd Mayweather Snr to see the damage caused by repeated blows to the head.  

 

I can't think of a documented case of a footballer being "punch drunk" but there are hundreds of Rugby and American Footballers who have this symptom. 

 

I don't think heading the ball is anywhere near as dangerous as boxing or the other sports mentioned. However it could have long term implication due to the repeated nature. 

Edited by AlimOzturk
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4 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

There is a condition where boxers become punch drunk. I don't know the official name but it is caused by repeated concussions. Only need to look at Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Shane Mosley, Floyd Mayweather Snr to see the damage caused by repeated blows to the head.  

 

I can't think of a documented case of a footballer being "punch drunk" but there are hundreds of Rugby and American Footballers who have this symptom. 

 

I don't think heading the ball is anywhere near as dangerous as boxing. 

Thanks Alim.

 

That’s exactly the sort of thing I wanted to know, I appreciate that. ?

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FarmerTweedy
13 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

It maybe. Personally I'm not scared of dying. From the day you're are born it's also the day you start dying.

Not everyone's philosophy but it is mine.

Whether you're scared of dying or not, or what your philosophy on living your life is, doesn't change the fact that certain activities are, or can be, detrimental to your health! Whether heading a ball repeatedly is actually detrimental to health or not, or to what degree, is currently unclear, but it's a fact that some activities are detrimental to health and do shorten many people's lifespans, and/or leave them with significant mental or physical health impairments!

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1 minute ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Whether you're scared of dying or not, or what your philosophy on living your life is, doesn't change the fact that certain activities are, or can be, detrimental to your health! Whether heading a ball repeatedly is actually detrimental to health or not, or to what degree, is currently unclear, but it's a fact that some activities are detrimental to health and do shorten many people's lifespans, and/or leave them with significant mental or physical health impairments!

 

Yep and it is the esponsibility of the head organisations of any chosen sport to allow the people participating in these sports to know the full extent of the risks involved. 

 

If they fail or attempt to cover up any health risk then they are simply failing to look out for the health of their athletes and deserve any wrath that comes their way. 

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Pasquale for King

Berra wears a gum shield that helps lessen the damage from heading the ball, not many wear them.

The NFL have taken as many steps as possible to stop players being concussed, as are the rugby authorities.

Football is way behind, David Gray was hit in the head on Sunday with the ball and wasn’t even checked out (poor refereeing) and then had to be treated later in but still played on.

Whether links can be made to dementia all players of all sports should know the dangers in their particular field.

I know the old Rangers player Jimmy Millar and he has dementia as many of his peers did, you could say heading that old heavy ball contributed to this. His sister has it too though so whether heading the ball is the cause or makes it worse is really up for discussion at this moment in time.

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Pasquale for King
1 hour ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

There is a condition where boxers become punch drunk. I don't know the official name but it is caused by repeated concussions. Only need to look at Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Shane Mosley, Floyd Mayweather Snr to see the damage caused by repeated blows to the head.  

 

I can't think of a documented case of a footballer being "punch drunk" but there are hundreds of Rugby and American Footballers who have this symptom. 

 

I don't think heading the ball is anywhere near as dangerous as boxing or the other sports mentioned. However it could have long term implication due to the repeated nature. 

Ali is a good example, he suffered from Parkinson’s but they will never know if it was congenital or brought on by Boxing. Michael J Fox was diagnosed with it at 30 and hadn’t been exposed to the dangers of certain sports. You would think Heavyweights might be more likely to suffer due to the sheer power and weight behind the blows they suffer. It would be interesting to see if anyone has done a study into football players and the position they play, CHs&CFs being more likely to head the ball. 

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John Findlay
1 hour ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Whether you're scared of dying or not, or what your philosophy on living your life is, doesn't change the fact that certain activities are, or can be, detrimental to your health! Whether heading a ball repeatedly is actually detrimental to health or not, or to what degree, is currently unclear, but it's a fact that some activities are detrimental to health and do shorten many people's lifespans, and/or leave them with significant mental or physical health impairments!

And....

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2 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

There is a condition where boxers become punch drunk. I don't know the official name but it is caused by repeated concussions. Only need to look at Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Shane Mosley, Floyd Mayweather Snr to see the damage caused by repeated blows to the head.  

 

I can't think of a documented case of a footballer being "punch drunk" but there are hundreds of Rugby and American Footballers who have this symptom. 

 

I don't think heading the ball is anywhere near as dangerous as boxing or the other sports mentioned. However it could have long term implication due to the repeated nature. 


A lot of research shows it does cause changes in the brain.

 

Mixed pathologies including chronic traumatic encephalopathy account for dementia in retired association football (soccer) players


Brain injury and heading in soccer

 

Soccer Heading Is Associated with White Matter Microstructural and Cognitive Abnormalities

Whether a definitive link has been defined would need a deeper look into the research, but it seems clear it does have an affect on the individual. 

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