Manchester derby v Edinburgh derby

[N Lincs Jambo]

Ok bit of a strange one but living down south and knowing a few people who support Man U, Man C and Liverpool, we’ve got a situation I just can’t imagine in Edinburgh.

 

On Wednesday City go to old Trafford and my wife’s boss (head chef in a pub/restaurant) is die-hard Utd. He’s been going since he was about 7 and was a hard-core hooligan of the casual variety for about 15 years. On Wednesday, such is his hatred for Liverpool that he actually wants City to win.

 

From what I’m hearing he’s not in a minority. 

 

Could we ever envisage a scenario where we would want Hearts to lose v Hibs so they could stop either of the OF winning the league?? 

 

From a personal point of view I hate both the OF more than I hate Hibs but the thought of actually wanting us to lose a derby?? Just no!!!

 

ps please leave 16 cup out of this. This is about the league and a league derby ?

[Taffin]

I don't care which of the old firm win. I'd want us to beat Hibs every time.

 

I'd take a defeat to the OF though to stop Hibs winning the league. That will never be a scenario though so it's all good.

[1953]

I can imagine wanting Hibs to win against another club to stop one of the old firm winning the league but would never want Hibs to beat us under any circumstances.

[j1964m]

Frook hibs would rather sleep in my piss all my life then let them win the league would rather another team apart from them

Edited April 22, 2019 by j1964m

[jamtartan74]

It’s slightly different than just wanting city to beat united, there’s a lot riding on it if Liverpool win the league. To united fans Liverpool is the real rivalry for them, in terms of winning trophies anyway, Liverpool winning means they are 1 away from uniteds 20 league wins. To us it seems strange but not to united fans it’s not, city have never really been a threat until recently. 

[martoon]

Different circs I suppose.

 

Man U fans have spent so many years looking upon Liverpool and, for a time, Arsenal as their rivals for silverware and titles that they have directed their hatred/rivalry to these clubs. Man C. were so poor throughout Fergie's pomp that they kind of dropped off their radar. Add in the Manc/Scouse thing and it's understandable. 

 

I hope Hibs lose every game they play.

 

If they beat Celtic on the last day and we pipped them to the title (1991/92, UEFA Cup style) it would be because Hearts gained more points over the season and were Champions (or 1991/92 Euro qualifiers) on merit. Feck all to do with the emailing scuttlers. 

 

Hearts would have qualified regardless that day anyway. Celtic did get into Europe through the backdoor by finishing 3rd.

 

Hibs can go p155 up a rope. Then, now and forever. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by martoon

[Thommo414]

Some people on here wanted (and still do) hibs to beat us so our manager would get the bullet. Odd behaviour as I want us to beat the horrible *******s every time with absolutely no exceptions. 

 

Watching us lie down to see them stop Rangers win the league? Nah I'll pass on that one

[N Lincs Jambo]

8 minutes ago, jamtartan74 said:

It’s slightly different than just wanting city to beat united, there’s a lot riding on it if Liverpool win the league. To united fans Liverpool is the real rivalry for them, in terms of winning trophies anyway, Liverpool winning means they are 1 away from uniteds 20 league wins. To us it seems strange but not to united fans it’s not, city have never really been a threat until recently. 

 

Agreed but it could be argued that Hibs haven’t really been a threat to us either. I haven’t checked but wouldn’t be surprised if the Edinburgh derby overall is far more one-sided than the Manchester one.

 

Liverpool won a lot of league titles in the 70s and 80s. United needed snookers till SAF really got going. Liverpool haven’t won a title in 29 years. Perspective again but when I went to Dens in 86 that would have been our first in 26.

 

City however have won 2 since Utd last won in 2013 and there are still Utd fans who would prefer them to get a 3rd than see it go to Anfield. As an Edinburgh born and bred Jambo I can’t get my head round that.

[RudiHMFC]

Man United v Liverpool rivalry is bigger than Man United v City. Simple as that.

[martoon]

57 minutes ago, N Lincs Jambo said:

Ok bit of a strange one but living down south and knowing a few people who support Man U, Man C and Liverpool, we’ve got a situation I just can’t imagine in Edinburgh.

 

On Wednesday City go to old Trafford and my wife’s boss (head chef in a pub/restaurant) is die-hard Utd. He’s been going since he was about 7 and was a hard-core hooligan of the casual variety for about 15 years. On Wednesday, such is his hatred for Liverpool that he actually wants City to win.

 

From what I’m hearing he’s not in a minority. 

 

Could we ever envisage a scenario where we would want Hearts to lose v Hibs so they could stop either of the OF winning the league?? 

 

From a personal point of view I hate both the OF more than I hate Hibs but the thought of actually wanting us to lose a derby?? Just no!!!

 

ps please leave 16 cup out of this. This is about the league and a league derby ?

 

No Evertonians?

 

I've never been to Merseyside but meet them all the time. Particularly on holiday in Spain. 

[N Lincs Jambo]

Funnily enough I don’t know many but one I do know really well is the uncle of a certain ex-Liverpool fc player who scored the winner for Inverness CT in the semi the season they won the cup.

 

that should have been a reply to @martoon

Edited April 22, 2019 by N Lincs Jambo
See above

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, N Lincs Jambo said:

Could we ever envisage a scenario where we would want Hearts to lose v Hibs so they could stop either of the OF winning the league?? 

 

This is not the correct comparison.

 

Some United fans want City to win on Wednesday because Liverpool, not City, are United's biggest rivals. Similarly, because Liverpool are Everton's biggest rivals, the atmosphere at Everton v City 2014 was extremely strange. Everton still had a chance of the top 4, but many of their fans were delighted when City won.

 

The correct comparison - which'll never happen, so it's completely moot - is if we wanted Hearts to lose to Celtic in order to deny Hibs the title. In some parallel universe, I could absolutely imagine many Hearts fans wanting that. But it's irrelevant anyway, because there's more chance of Elvis being found alive.

 

There was one occasion in my life when a Hibs win really helped Hearts. They beat Celtic on the final day of 91/2, enabling us to finish 2nd. If on that day, Hearts fans wanted Hibs to lose, I'd find that pretty incomprehensible tbh.

Edited April 22, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[Bazzas right boot]

Barcelona / r Madrid are the same. 

Possibly Milan clubs v juventus. 

Bayern / Dortmund. 

Psv v Ajax. 

 

Usually down to the derby of the same city having such a big difference of  standard between the two so the rivalry becomes cross city to the better team of similar standard. 

Culture also has a say in it. 

 

 

It's more common than folk think I reckon. 

[martoon]

5 minutes ago, N Lincs Jambo said:

Funnily enough I don’t know many but one I do know really well is the uncle of a certain ex-Liverpool fc player who scored the winner for Inverness CT in the semi the season they won the cup.

 

that should have been a reply to @martoon

 

I'll have to check that one online to get the answer. 

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, Olly Lee's left boot said:

Barcelona / r Madrid are the same. 

Possibly Milan clubs v juventus. 

Bayern / Dortmund. 

Psv v Ajax. 

 

Usually down to the derby of the same city having such a big difference of  standard between the two so the rivalry becomes cross city to the better team of similar standard. 

Culture also has a say in it. 

 

 

It's more common than folk think I reckon. 

 

Barca-Madrid, absolutely. See Barca fans applauding Atletico when they clinched the title there, at both Barca (but more importantly, Madrid)'s expense.

 

Inter-Juve is the derby of Italy. Inter fans hate Milan but loathe Juve.

 

It's not Ajax-PSV, but Ajax-Feyenoord. That's the great derby of the Netherlands. Those fans despise each other. And I bet Bayern don't hate Dortmund half as much as Schalke do. 

 

Derby of France? PSG-Marseille, often accompanied with violence off the pitch. 

 

As for United... it wasn't that long ago when they hated Leeds way more than City. City were like the village idiot - how could they hate that? And if Leeds return to prominence at some point, that rivalry will become fierce again.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[N Lincs Jambo]

1 minute ago, martoon said:

 

I'll have to check that one online to get the answer. 

 

?

[Bazzas right boot]

Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

Barca-Madrid, absolutely. See Barca fans applauding Atletico when they clinched the title there, at both Barca (but more importantly, Madrid's) expense.

 

Inter-Juve is the derby of Italy. Inter fans hate Milan but loathe Juve.

 

And it's not Ajax-PSV, but Ajax-Feyenoord. That's the great derby of the Netherlands. Those fans despise each other. 

 

Probably lots of examples where clubs in the same city hate clubs more from another city than each other. 

 

Pretty common tbh. 

 

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Olly Lee's left boot said:

 

Probably lots of examples where clubs in the same city hate clubs more from another city than each other. 

 

Pretty common tbh. 

 

 

Yep. It's not something we can relate to because well, we're not a massive club. Ajax-Feyenoord, incidentally, isn't even only about football. It's about the huge differences in how Amsterdam and Rotterdam see themselves (specifically: the latter thinks it has all the workers, while Amsterdam lazes around all day, doing nothing and boasting about how special it is). 

 

Is it bullshit? Almost certainly yes - but it translates into how the two clubs play too. Feyenoord fans demand relentless hard work; Ajax fans want sexy, luxurious football.

[martoon]

5 minutes ago, N Lincs Jambo said:

 

?

 

David Raven. Missed the final through injury, apparently. Pity for the lad. 

 

I think, at the time, I was too busy laughing at Falkirk 1-0 Hibs the day before to notice. 

[N Lincs Jambo]

7 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

This is not the correct comparison.

 

Some United fans want City to win on Wednesday because Liverpool, not City, are United's biggest rivals. Similarly, because Liverpool are Everton's biggest rivals, the atmosphere at Everton v City 2014 was extremely strange. Everton still had a chance of the top 4, but many of their fans were delighted when City won.

 

The correct comparison - which'll never happen, so it's completely moot - is if we wanted Hearts to lose to Celtic in order to deny Hibs the title. In some parallel universe, I could absolutely imagine some Hearts fans wanting that. But it's irrelevant anyway, because there's more chance of Elvis being found alive.

 

There was one occasion in my life when a Hibs win really helped Hearts. They beat Celtic on the final day of 91/2, enabling us to finish 2nd. If on that day, Hearts fans wanted Hibs to lose, I'd find that pretty incomprehensible tbh.

 

The Liverpool being Utd’s biggest rivals thing I could go with but for the fact that City have won 3 titles this decade compared to Liverpool’s 0. Yet despite City being in the same city as Utd, some/many Utd fans want to see City continue their success to deny a first title in 29 years to a team which are geographically about as close as we are to Celtic.

 

In terms of actual competitive rivalry, Hibs haven’t won the league since the early 50s and haven’t even been 2nd since 1975. Since then we have genuinely challenged on 4 occasions finishing 2nd with Hibs nowhere so apart from on a geographical basis they have hardly been our rivals.

 

My point in my OP was that I can’t imagine a die-hard Jambo ever wanting us to lose a derby no matter the circumstances. I just can’t get my head round how that feels and I don’t think I ever want to.

[N Lincs Jambo]

2 minutes ago, martoon said:

 

David Raven. Missed the final through injury, apparently. Pity for the lad. 

 

I think, at the time, I was too busy laughing at Falkirk 1-0 Hibs the day before to notice. 

 

That’s the one! His uncle once shared a private photo of him with David when David was about 19. Graeme in his Everton top and David in his Liverpool one.

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, N Lincs Jambo said:

My point in my OP was that I can’t imagine a die-hard Jambo ever wanting us to lose a derby no matter the circumstances. I just can’t get my head round how that feels and I don’t think I ever want to.

 

Sure. But your point ignores the context. Liverpool are bigger rivals for United than City are: all of which is based on history. It's currently 20-18 - the last thing United want is for Liverpool to close the title gap to one. If City win another title, United fans will hardly be happy... but the attitude of many will be "come back when you've won 20". 

 

By contrast, Hearts don't have bigger rivals than Hibs, and never will. The derby is everything to us. It's not quite everything to United fans. And you seem very oblivious about the historic rivalry between Liverpool and Manchester too: so historic, it predates football altogether. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[i8hibsh]

There are very few derbies in England and by derby I mean intense city rivals who beating is life and death. Sheffield, Bristol, Newcastle v Sunderland (yes I know they don't share a city).

 

 

[N Lincs Jambo]

3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Sure. But your point ignores the context. Liverpool are bigger rivals for United than City are: all of which is based on history. It's currently 20-18 - the last thing United want is for Liverpool to close the title gap to one. If City win another title, United fans will hardly be happy... but the attitude of many will be "come back when you've won 20". 

 

By contrast, Hearts don't have bigger rivals than Hibs, and never will. The derby is everything to us. It's not quite everything to United fans. And you seem very oblivious about the historic rivalry between Liverpool and Manchester too: so historic, it predates football altogether. 

 

So no rivalry between Edinburgh and Glasgow no?? You seem very oblivious to that

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, i8hibsh said:

There are very few derbies in England and by derby I mean intense city rivals who beating is life and death. Sheffield, Bristol, Newcastle v Sunderland (yes I know they don't share a city).

 

 

 

All good choices. The Welsh derby is probably fiercer and nastier than any of them. I'd add West Ham v Millwall too. The naffest rivalry I can think of is probably Palace v Brighton. 

 

Norwich v Ipswich, meanwhile, is when both sets of fans try to turn into these edgy, angry, "you're going home in a Norfolk ambulance" types for 90 minutes... but fail, miserably. 

[shaun.lawson]

2 minutes ago, N Lincs Jambo said:

 

So no rivalry between Edinburgh and Glasgow no?? You seem very oblivious to that

 

Not oblivious to that in any way. But it's not as big as Liverpool v Manchester.

 

Not only that - but in footballing terms, Liverpool v Manchester has been even, with both cities having one club of historic global importance (now Manchester has two of them). Edinburgh v Glasgow has, for the most part, been like a mosquito colliding with an elephant. Sad, but true.

Edited April 22, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[N Lincs Jambo]

Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

Not oblivious to that in any way. But it's not as big as Liverpool v Manchester.

 

Not only that - but in footballing terms, Liverpool v Manchester has been even. Edinburgh v Glasgow has, for the most part, been like a mosquito colliding with an elephant. Sad, but true.

 

The latter part of that I do agree with but we both know the reason you for that, ie sectarian bigotry which was/is the big ISP for both arse cheeks for a good century.

[shaun.lawson]

2 minutes ago, N Lincs Jambo said:

 

The latter part of that I do agree with but we both know the reason you for that, ie sectarian bigotry which was/is the big ISP for both arse cheeks for a good century.

 

Indeed. 

[maroonsgotop]

1 hour ago, N Lincs Jambo said:

Ok bit of a strange one but living down south and knowing a few people who support Man U, Man C and Liverpool, we’ve got a situation I just can’t imagine in Edinburgh.

 

On Wednesday City go to old Trafford and my wife’s boss (head chef in a pub/restaurant) is die-hard Utd. He’s been going since he was about 7 and was a hard-core hooligan of the casual variety for about 15 years. On Wednesday, such is his hatred for Liverpool that he actually wants City to win.

 

From what I’m hearing he’s not in a minority. 

 

Could we ever envisage a scenario where we would want Hearts to lose v Hibs so they could stop either of the OF winning the league?? 

 

From a personal point of view I hate both the OF more than I hate Hibs but the thought of actually wanting us to lose a derby?? Just no!!!

 

ps please leave 16 cup out of this. This is about the league and a league derby ?

yep, strange that they would rather let City win to stop Liverpool winning the league and at the same diminish their own hopes of Champions League football. But that's the way they are ( I know quite a few via work). I wonder if they'll feel the same if City keep racking up League titles going forward

[SMJ_1874]

Under no circumstances would I ever want us to lose to these cretins just to deny the OF. I hate them all with a burning passion but our nearest rivals are the ones I want to inflict the most misery upon. Given the choice I’d rather contact a severe bout of leprosy until my dick fell off than lose to that manky mob from Leith! 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Saughton Jambo

[N Lincs Jambo]

7 minutes ago, maroonsgotop said:

yep, strange that they would rather let City win to stop Liverpool winning the league and at the same diminish their own hopes of Champions League football. But that's the way they are ( I know quite a few via work). I wonder if they'll feel the same if City keep racking up League titles going forward

 

Yeah that’s where I’m at. I have a funny feeling that Ole will have them fired up for Wednesday. Can’t see them winning but think they might get a a point which will be massive for Liverpool 

[Inch Hearts]

Surely the comparison was playing Celtic at home and wanting to lose to stop Hibs winning the league?  And yes, if under they circumstances I would rather we lost a game against Celtic to stop Hibs winning the league. 

[Morgan]

This is a   thread.

[Boof]

39 minutes ago, Olly Lee's left boot said:

 

Probably lots of examples where clubs in the same city hate clubs more from another city than each other. 

 

Pretty common tbh. 

 

 

The Old Firm wouldn't really work without either ersecheek. 

 

They know it, we know it and their compliant chums in the media pretend it isn't so.

[Morgan]

1 minute ago, Inch Hearts said:

Surely the comparison was playing Celtic at home and wanting to lose to stop Hibs winning the league?  And yes, if under they circumstances I would rather we lost a game against Celtic to stop Hibs winning the league. 

Correct!

 

Any game that, due to it's result, is detrimental to Hibs, is a wonderful game.

 

Feck Hibs ‘til the cows come home.

[N Lincs Jambo]

Just now, Inch Hearts said:

Surely the comparison was playing Celtic at home and wanting to lose to stop Hibs winning the league?  And yes, if under they circumstances I would rather we lost a game against Celtic to stop Hibs winning the league. 

 

I understand what you’re saying but for me it’s like us wanting Hibs to beat us at Tynie as it’s a 2-horse race between Hibs and either of the arse cheeks for the title. Despite Man U’s well documented rivalry with Liverpool, I just can’t believe there would ever be a circumstance where I would actually want us to lose a derby, especially if it meant them winning the league. The guy I mentioned in my OP is utterly mental Utd, serious hoolie in his day and bleeds red. Different cities I suppose 

[Debut 4]

It’s about who we hate more. 

 

Personally its Hibs for me and I think the vast majority of Hearts fans would be the same, so the question doesn’t really align. (Sorry to be a spoilsport?) 

 

I don’t think we have a stronger rivalry v a team outwith Edinburgh compared to the derby. Therefore, I don’t think we’d bother much about seeing Rangers or Celtic winning the title.  We’d want to skelp Hibs.  

[Jambo-Fox]

This is a better comparison;

 

Hearts vs Edinburgh City ....

 

Hearts lose, Edinburgh City win the league, Hearts win Hibs win the league!!

 

I think I’d give that one to Edinburgh City!

[dc-jambo]

34 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

There are very few derbies in England and by derby I mean intense city rivals who beating is life and death. Sheffield, Bristol, Newcastle v Sunderland (yes I know they don't share a city).

 

 

Southampton Pompey 

West Ham Millwall

Eagles Seagulls

ipswich norwich

villa city

etc etc

 

[i8hibsh]

1 minute ago, dc-jambo said:

Southampton Pompey 

West Ham Millwall

Eagles Seagulls

ipswich norwich

villa city

etc etc

Not for me. Those teams for one barely even play each other.

[Thommo414]

3 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

Not for me. Those teams for one barely even play each other.

First two matches on the list, sure. 

 

Villa won't be promoted this season so that Derby will be a regular fixture for 3 seasons as of next year. Norwich v Ipswich has been alive and kicking since their last relegation 

[glynnlondon]

1 hour ago, RudiHMFC said:

Man United v Liverpool rivalry is bigger than Man United v City. Simple as that.

Yep they loathe each other and have done for decades

[shaun.lawson]

12 minutes ago, Thommo414 said:

Villa won't be promoted this season 

 

[dannymack]

I absolutely detest and loathe everything that is Celtic football club, horrible and disgusting institution. 

However if the circumstances were similar to Wednesday I could never ever live with myself to want Hibs to beat Heart of Midlothian in order for them to pip Celtic to the league

 

Remember this is the same so called best league in the world that accepts half and half scarves in and amongst the support.

[dannymack]

Yer Arse !

[shaun.lawson]

7 minutes ago, dannymack said:

Remember this is the same so called best league in the world that accepts half and half scarves in and amongst the support.

 

I hear you - but I have a simple rule when it comes to modern football.

 

"Does your club play goal music when your team scores?"

 

If the answer is 'yes', then when it comes to complaining about how plastic and dumbed down other clubs or leagues are, you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Goal music GTF. 

[dannymack]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I hear you - but I have a simple rule when it comes to modern football.

 

"Does your club play goal music when your team scores?"

 

If the answer is 'yes', then when it comes to complaining about how plastic and dumbed down other clubs or leagues are, you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Goal music GTF. 

 

Lulu... Shout ! 

[Tynecastlesmychurch]

Hate both the old firm far more. But care about beating hibs more.

[ri Alban]

6 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 United fans will hardly be happy... but the attitude of many will be "come back when you've won 20". 

 

 

They should be careful what they wish for.

 

 

 

Personally, I don't usually go for supporting other teams to do something we can't do ourselves.(Well, apart from England) If we can't win it, that's our problem.

 

 

[Kiwidoug]

No.  Next question.