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Maple Leaf

"No Religion" on the rise in the USA

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Ribble
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

It's almost eradicated in Britain already. Young people, by and large, do not buy in to it and certainly do not go to church. Once the older generation die off it's pretty much done for. I'd be very surprised if America didn't follow suit a little bit further down the line.

 

Give it 50-100 years and Christianity will be reduced to little more than a lunatic cult following like Mormonism IMO.

 

 

I agree that religion could well be eradicated in ther main in the UK I'm not entirely sure that America will follow, due to America's lack of history their false patriotism is in part built on religion, take religion away and you take part of that patriotism away, americans will never stand for it as they are of course the most patriotic nation on the planet.

 

They may in future not attend church themselves but they'll still find it difficult to elect someone who isn't a god fearing man or woman, just in case they are a tiny bit less patriotic!

Edited by Ribble

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JT1959
5 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

It's almost eradicated in Britain already. Young people, by and large, do not buy in to it and certainly do not go to church. Once the older generation die off it's pretty much done for. I'd be very surprised if America didn't follow suit a little bit further down the line.

 

Give it 50-100 years and Christianity will be reduced to little more than a lunatic cult following like Mormonism IMO.

 

100 years could be about right. 

 

Recall watching that "Zeitgeist" film on religion a while back and their take on it was current religions are man made based on the precession of the equinoxes (I don't really understand it either) but, each age of the sun passing through constellations is 2150 years. We are in Pisces now (2 fish - Christians) prior to that it was (Aries - Hebrew with the Rams Horn symbolism) and next age is Aquarius in about 2150. Get ready for some liquid God nonsense .........

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Cade

I can only assume that the majority of "no religion" people are on the coasts.

 

The central part of the USA remains a borderline Christian fundamentalist heartland populated by heavily-armed, full-on bigots.

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colinmaroon
Posted (edited)

 

In so-called Christianity, the ultimate lie, the perversion of the Gospel, to make it all about US"Another Gospel," as Paul calls it.  Anathema on all that!

 

Then there's the voice of atheism and secularism, the intolerance of tolerance, the 21st century religion, that calls us bigots - oh ma sides!!!  The worst bigots I have come across in the last 10 years or so are secular humanists!

 

HE called it out for what it is -  

“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates Me hates My Father also. If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both Me and My Father. But the Word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated Me without a cause.’ (John 15:22-25 ESV)

“You will be hated by all for My Name’s sake.” (Luke 21:17 ESV)

“If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me before it hated you.” (John 15:18 ESV)

 

However, there's an upside to all this hatred of a message that warns and provides a way to avoid the disaster but is mocked and ridiculed and spat on - Just like Jesus was, and is -

“Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man!” (Luke 6:22 ESV)

 

You can pour out your bile, blast your intolerant hatred at God and us, I'll still pray for you to be saved and, when you do stand there on Judgement Day, it won't be because God didn't love you, it won't be because I don't love you (and that is a miracle of God's Grace) it will because you rejected a God who loved you so much He sent His only Son to die in your place so that you might exchange your death for HIS life, eternal life. And, by the way, the Son chose to come and He came willingly to die for you.

 

What will you say to God when He asks you, "What did you do with my Son?"

 

 

 

 

Edited by colinmaroon

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Justin Z
40 minutes ago, colinmaroon said:

I'll still pray for you to be saved and, when you do stand there on Judgement Day, it won't be because God didn't love you, it won't be because I don't love you (and that is a miracle of God's Grace) it will because you rejected a God who loved you so much He sent His only Son to die in your place so that you might exchange your death for HIS life, eternal life. And, by the way, the Son chose to come and He came willingly to die for you.

 

Dude, Jesus is/was God/part of the Trinity in this myth. Since the Christian conception of its god is an omniscient deity, it logically follows he knew exactly what would happen, and that he'd be raised from the dead. The sacrifice was absolutely zero, and the theology is pure nonsense. Get your preaching out of here, not to mention your utter shite about secular humanists being bigoted for daring to call out unchristian behaviour by purported Christians for exactly what it is: hypocritical ****ery.

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colinmaroon
44 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Dude, Jesus is/was God/part of the Trinity in this myth. Since the Christian conception of its god is an omniscient deity, it logically follows he knew exactly what would happen, and that he'd be raised from the dead. The sacrifice was absolutely zero, and the theology is pure nonsense. Get your preaching out of here, not to mention your utter shite about secular humanists being bigoted for daring to call out unchristian behaviour by purported Christians for exactly what it is: hypocritical ****ery.

 

There speaks total ignorance.

 

Foreknowledge made what He did, taking the filth of my sin and yours onto his sinless soul, absolutely beyond your capacity to comprehend.  You couldn't even begin to understand that, because the foolishness, in your eyes, of the Cross is just that to those who are perishing but it is the power of God for salvation for all those who believe. 

 

You really want to try and understand that which you denigrate without any idea about the subject, even if you don't agree with it.  The "Dan Brown" level you seem to be coming from kind of proves that point. 

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The Real Maroonblood
55 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Dude, Jesus is/was God/part of the Trinity in this myth. Since the Christian conception of its god is an omniscient deity, it logically follows he knew exactly what would happen, and that he'd be raised from the dead. The sacrifice was absolutely zero, and the theology is pure nonsense. Get your preaching out of here, not to mention your utter shite about secular humanists being bigoted for daring to call out unchristian behaviour by purported Christians for exactly what it is: hypocritical ****ery.

:greatpost:

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Maple Leaf
2 hours ago, colinmaroon said:

 

What will you say to God when He asks you, "What did you do with my Son?"

 

 

An extremely hypothetical question.  Around the world, an average of 6,300 people die each hour. That's about 100 each minute. I'm sure you're not suggesting that God literally challenges each of those people with that question.

 

But, if you're serious, and in the highly unlikely event that I did find myself in that situation, I would simply answer "I did nothing to your son.  He died 2,000 years before I was born, as you know, in a country far away from mine, as you know, because you arranged all that."

 

And if he is a tolerant God who loves me, as you claim, he'll reply "Aye, fair enough. Off you go now."

 

In any event, there's no doubt that you feel strongly about your faith and you feel compelled to deliver the Christian message, but the study shows that fewer and fewer people are interested in hearing it, at least in the USA.

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Justin Z
40 minutes ago, colinmaroon said:

 

There speaks total ignorance.

 

Foreknowledge made what He did, taking the filth of my sin and yours onto his sinless soul, absolutely beyond your capacity to comprehend.  You couldn't even begin to understand that, because the foolishness, in your eyes, of the Cross is just that to those who are perishing but it is the power of God for salvation for all those who believe. 

 

You really want to try and understand that which you denigrate without any idea about the subject, even if you don't agree with it.  The "Dan Brown" level you seem to be coming from kind of proves that point. 

 

:rofl: Oh I understand fine pal. A quarter of a century or so of brainwashing and indoctrination ensured that. I'm thankful I was able to eventually see clearly even in spite of it, and I would pit my understanding of Evangelical theology against your average devotional churchgoer annnyyyy day.

 

I realise in order to maintain your house of cards of confirmation bias, you have to convince yourself I know nothing and speak from ignorance. Indeed, it's one of the best-known tricks of Evangelicals, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses alike to keep already enslaved minds in the fold.

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alfajambo
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

An extremely hypothetical question.  Around the world, an average of 6,300 people die each hour. That's about 100 each minute. I'm sure you're not suggesting that God literally challenges each of those people with that question.

 

But, if you're serious, and in the highly unlikely event that I did find myself in that situation, I would simply answer "I did nothing to your son.  He died 2,000 years before I was born, as you know, in a country far away from mine, as you know, because you arranged all that."

 

And if he is a tolerant God who loves me, as you claim, he'll reply "Aye, fair enough. Off you go now."

 

In any event, there's no doubt that you feel strongly about your faith and you feel compelled to deliver the Christian message, but the study shows that fewer and fewer people are interested in hearing it, at least in the USA.

Christianity is not about proving others wrong, but about proving others are loved.

I like you Maple, even though we have never met. And God, he loves you unconditionally, even though you reject His offer of salvation, given freely through Jesus Christ His Son.

 

Tonight, if you die and find yourself in a place of damnation separated from God’s love for eternity - a place of no escape. Who will you blame?

 

A Holy and just God who provided you with a way back to a relationship with him.

Or perhaps the church or other Christians who you feel never passed on the good news message.

 

Hell, it’s the hidden cost and the thing that’s lost on all who will reside there.

 

That’s why people like ColinM and me and others here in our own inadequate way attempt to pass on the message of salvation through Christ.

 

His gracious invitation to you still stands, even after all these years.

 

Edited by alfajambo

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Barack
52 minutes ago, alfajambo said:

Christianity is not about proving others wrong, but about proving others are loved.

I like you Maple, even though we have never met. And God, he loves you unconditionally, even though you reject His offer of salvation, given freely through Jesus Christ His Son.

 

Tonight, if you die and find yourself in a place of damnation separated from God’s love for eternity - a place of no escape. Who will you blame?

 

A Holy and just God who provided you with a way back to a relationship with him.

Or perhaps the church or other Christians who you feel never passed on the good news message.

 

Hell, it’s the hidden cost and the thing that’s lost on all who will reside there.

 

That’s why people like ColinM and me and others here in our own inadequate way attempt to pass on the message of salvation through Christ.

 

His gracious invitation to you still stands, even after all these years.

 

You pass on your messages through Sean Hannity & Tucker Carlson.

 

If you truly believe in the afterlife, I'd get ready to put the after-sun on for where you're most likely headed, alfa.

 

God will have definitely forsaken you for that.👍🏻

 

 

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Smithee

Buddhism seems like a great idea right now

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J.T.F.Robertson

hate no-one for their belief in a God, "envy" might be a better description. When, however, their outright hypocrisy is as blatant as it is, and has always been for that matter, that's when it gets to me and I doubt that He will damn me for being (trying to be) true to myself as opposed to "rewarding" those who claimed to follow his word whilst practicing the exact opposite on numerous occasions.

 

All pretty much hypothetical though.

 

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Maple Leaf
3 hours ago, alfajambo said:

Christianity is not about proving others wrong, but about proving others are loved.

I like you Maple, even though we have never met. And God, he loves you unconditionally, even though you reject His offer of salvation, given freely through Jesus Christ His Son.

 

Tonight, if you die and find yourself in a place of damnation separated from God’s love for eternity - a place of no escape. Who will you blame?

 

A Holy and just God who provided you with a way back to a relationship with him.

Or perhaps the church or other Christians who you feel never passed on the good news message.

 

Hell, it’s the hidden cost and the thing that’s lost on all who will reside there.

 

That’s why people like ColinM and me and others here in our own inadequate way attempt to pass on the message of salvation through Christ.

 

His gracious invitation to you still stands, even after all these years.

 

 

And I like you too, even though we've never met.

 

But the point of this thread is not about God or love or any other aspect of Christian belief.  The point is that rejection of religion is dramatically increasing in the USA, the bastion of Christianity in the western world.

 

Catholics are very vocal in US politics, as are Evangelicans.  Those groups are soon to be outnumbered by the hitherto silent non-religious.  Yet the non-religious are not represented anywhere among elected officials at the state or federal level. 

 

Something's going to break, don't you think?

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Justin Z
2 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

Catholics are very vocal in US politics, as are Evangelicans.  Those groups are soon to be outnumbered by the hitherto silent non-religious.  Yet the non-religious are not represented anywhere among elected officials at the state or federal level. 

 

Something's going to break, don't you think?

 

Having been discriminated against at the workplace due to my lack of religion, as well as simply by other people in casual, social settings, I find your point about the non-religious being silent up to now is especially poignant and perceptive. It would be absolutely amazing for people to feel like they can be completely open about their non-belief without fear of societal repercussion, be that social, political, working, or anything else.

 

Not being bombarded by religiosity, and faux concern or outright hostility for my lack thereof, has been one of the countless blessings of living in Scotland instead of the US.

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Jambo-Jimbo
1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

Having been discriminated against at the workplace due to my lack of religion, as well as simply by other people in casual, social settings, I find your point about the non-religious being silent up to now is especially poignant and perceptive. It would be absolutely amazing for people to feel like they can be completely open about their non-belief without fear of societal repercussion, be that social, political, working, or anything else.

 

Not being bombarded by religiosity, and faux concern or outright hostility for my lack thereof, has been one of the countless blessings of living in Scotland instead of the US.

 

And in all likelihood you'd have been discriminated against by the very same people who believe and say that their god is all loving and forgiving of all souls, believers and non-believers alike.

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Smithee said:

Buddhism seems like a great idea right now

I think they're still killing and displacing Muslims in Burma. Great PR dept the Buddhists have. 

Edited by Joey J J Jr Shabadoo

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Smithee
5 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

I think they're still murdering Muslims in Burma. Great PR dept the Buddhists have. 

 

Ffs, is there a religion that doesn't practice angry intolerance?

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
Just now, Smithee said:

 

Ffs, is there a religion that doesn't practice angry intolerance?

I think you know the answer to that. 

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Smithee
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

I think you know the answer to that. 

Indeed, point worth making though :D

 

I don't think we're allowed to judge buddhism. We haven't studied it in depth and are coming from a "Dan Brown" level of understanding, so I think we have to assume it's true - not believing without study would be ignorance!

Edited by Smithee

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Justin Z
22 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

I think you know the answer to that. 

💯

 

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Indeed, point worth making though :D

 

I don't think we're allowed to judge buddhism. We haven't studied it in depth and are coming from a "Dan Brown" level of understanding, so I think we have to assume it's true - not believing without study would be ignorance!

 

xgz9nkR.gif

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alfajambo
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

And I like you too, even though we've never met.

 

But the point of this thread is not about God or love or any other aspect of Christian belief.  The point is that rejection of religion is dramatically increasing in the USA, the bastion of Christianity in the western world.

 

Catholics are very vocal in US politics, as are Evangelicans.  Those groups are soon to be outnumbered by the hitherto silent non-religious.  Yet the non-religious are not represented anywhere among elected officials at the state or federal level. 

 

Something's going to break, don't you think?

Having read the ugly ones note on the decline of America’s pseudo Christian modus vivendi – It reveals many comparisons to the state of the Christian church here in GB. Naturally the cultural dynamics are dissimilar, however the consensus and conclusion of decline in identity have been augmented on this side of the Atlantic.

 

In effort to reveal a self-proclaimed veneered section view of respectability and decency. How many from past generations attended church and professed a faith because the action was deemed socially acceptable?  - This historical manifestation is now dead.

 

The reason for statistical decline is cited by many as; cultural, public education, media related etc.

And in a world where truth is perceived as a fluid commodity and a view of the authenticity of truth is shaped by a media saturated in its own world of make believe – decline in a sense is not remarkable. Perhaps with the view of historical perspective and as alluded to by the UA’s it is perhaps an action of necessity.

 

However, todays church has much to answer for. Nobody can deny that there has been a mass exodus from the Christian faith in Europe and America. And as a result, we observe many church leaders peddling a message that seeks never to offend. A soft watered-down gospel, designed to entertain and stir emotion. Where sin is a disused word, reserved only for special occasions. After all truth is scary and bad for business.

 

Here in Scotland the church is in steep decline. Its seeming failure to preach God’s Word without compromise has resulted in a pernicious capitulation to the desires of the world.  And where the Word is preached in its fullness, it seems at times to be received like an unwelcome gift, rejected and thrown out. Fallen its light diminished and, in some places, extinguished, its heart and head now turned to the world of human endeavour for its identity and direction.

 

However, man’s own anecdotes no matter how brilliant they may be thought of by the world, when preached from the nation’s pulpits, regardless of denomination can never supersede the inerrant, unchanging and eternal Truth that is God’s Word. Can a therapeutic gospel that seeks to entertain and help people feel good about themselves, ever be the solution to decline? Or more importantly lead people to a real repentance and salvation through Christ Jesus.

 

One thing is clear, if the Church of Scotland continues to embrace the way of secular liberalism and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, it will die.  Perhaps then conceivably to be resurrected by its worldly remnant as a glorified social work, community project. To adopt the business franchise methods and model of the emergent church where people gather to hear what their itching ears want to hear, will prove equally unfruitful. Both potential future scenarios offer a pseudo Christian experience where chasing the after the world becomes the raison detre.    

                                                                                                                                     

The moment of truth and decision is upon us, the nation’s church stands facing the metaphorical cross in the road. Which way will it navigate, towards the cross or the crowd?  For a desperate world and church in great peril, the answer should be clear. Preach the Word of God from the Holy Scriptures in their completeness. No addition required. The only vision we need as a church is to preach Christ crucified and raised from the dead. And to obey him.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by alfajambo

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Smithee
17 minutes ago, alfajambo said:

Having read the ugly ones note on the decline of America’s pseudo Christian modus vivendi – It reveals many comparisons to the state of the Christian church here in GB. Naturally the cultural dynamics are dissimilar, however the consensus and conclusion of decline in identity have been augmented on this side of the Atlantic.

 

In effort to reveal a self-proclaimed veneered section view of respectability and decency. How many from past generations attended church and professed a faith because the action was deemed socially acceptable?  - This historical manifestation is now dead.

 

The reason for statistical decline is cited by many as; cultural, public education, media related etc.

And in a world where truth is perceived as a fluid commodity and a view of the authenticity of truth is shaped by a media saturated in its own world of make believe – decline in a sense is not remarkable. Perhaps with the view of historical perspective and as alluded to by the UA’s it is perhaps an action of necessity.

 

However, todays church has much to answer for. Nobody can deny that there has been a mass exodus from the Christian faith in Europe and America. And as a result, we observe many church leaders peddling a message that seeks never to offend. A soft watered-down gospel, designed to entertain and stir emotion. Where sin is a disused word, reserved only for special occasions. After all truth is scary and bad for business.

 

Here in Scotland the church is in steep decline. Its seeming failure to preach God’s Word without compromise has resulted in a pernicious capitulation to the desires of the world.  And where the Word is preached in its fullness, it seems at times to be received like an unwelcome gift, rejected and thrown out. Fallen its light diminished and, in some places, extinguished, its heart and head now turned to the world of human endeavour for its identity and direction.

 

However, man’s own anecdotes no matter how brilliant they may be thought of by the world, when preached from the nation’s pulpits, regardless of denomination can never supersede the inerrant, unchanging and eternal Truth that is God’s Word. Can a therapeutic gospel that seeks to entertain and help people feel good about themselves, ever be the solution to decline? Or more importantly lead people to a real repentance and salvation through Christ Jesus.

 

One thing is clear, if the Church of Scotland continues to embrace the way of secular liberalism and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, it will die.  Perhaps then conceivably to be resurrected by its worldly remnant as a glorified social work, community project. To adopt the business franchise methods and model of the emergent church where people gather to hear what their itching ears want to hear, will prove equally unfruitful. Both potential future scenarios offer a pseudo Christian experience where chasing the after the world becomes the raison detre.    

                                                                                                                                     

The moment of truth and decision is upon us, the nation’s church stands facing the metaphorical cross in the road. Which way will it navigate, towards the cross or the crowd?  For a desperate world and church in great peril, the answer should be clear. Preach the Word of God from the Holy Scriptures in their completeness. No addition required. The only vision we need as a church is to preach Christ crucified and raised from the dead. And to obey him.

 

 

 

 

 

:laugh: a trump supporter on about truth!

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redjambo
11 hours ago, alfajambo said:

Tonight, if you die and find yourself in a place of damnation separated from God’s love for eternity - a place of no escape. Who will you blame?

 

 

@Maple Leaf If you do find yourself there, don't worry, I'll be there too. We should meet up for a beer or two! Remember your marshmallows.

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
2 hours ago, Smithee said:

Indeed, point worth making though :D

 

I don't think we're allowed to judge buddhism. We haven't studied it in depth and are coming from a "Dan Brown" level of understanding, so I think we have to assume it's true - not believing without study would be ignorance!

:lol:

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Pans Jambo
On 13/04/2019 at 21:56, Barack said:

'Mon the Godless!

 

 

:yas:

 

 

Got to the 2nd post on this thread. Thats me done!

 

Brilliant :lol:

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Cheile

If there is a god or gods, who created them/it? And who created the creators etc? Also, which religion is the true religion and which version of that is correct?

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
1 hour ago, Cheile said:

If there is a god or gods, who created them/it? And who created the creators etc? Also, which religion is the true religion and which version of that is correct?

All religions are wrong, as there is no such thing as God. 

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Jambo-Jimbo
24 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

All religions are wrong, as there is no such thing as God. 

 

This is the correct answer.

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Maple Leaf
7 hours ago, alfajambo said:

Having read the ugly ones note on the decline of America’s pseudo Christian modus vivendi – It reveals many comparisons to the state of the Christian church here in GB. Naturally the cultural dynamics are dissimilar, however the consensus and conclusion of decline in identity have been augmented on this side of the Atlantic.

 

In effort to reveal a self-proclaimed veneered section view of respectability and decency. How many from past generations attended church and professed a faith because the action was deemed socially acceptable?  - This historical manifestation is now dead.

 

The reason for statistical decline is cited by many as; cultural, public education, media related etc.

And in a world where truth is perceived as a fluid commodity and a view of the authenticity of truth is shaped by a media saturated in its own world of make believe – decline in a sense is not remarkable. Perhaps with the view of historical perspective and as alluded to by the UA’s it is perhaps an action of necessity.

 

However, todays church has much to answer for. Nobody can deny that there has been a mass exodus from the Christian faith in Europe and America. And as a result, we observe many church leaders peddling a message that seeks never to offend. A soft watered-down gospel, designed to entertain and stir emotion. Where sin is a disused word, reserved only for special occasions. After all truth is scary and bad for business.

 

Here in Scotland the church is in steep decline. Its seeming failure to preach God’s Word without compromise has resulted in a pernicious capitulation to the desires of the world.  And where the Word is preached in its fullness, it seems at times to be received like an unwelcome gift, rejected and thrown out. Fallen its light diminished and, in some places, extinguished, its heart and head now turned to the world of human endeavour for its identity and direction.

 

However, man’s own anecdotes no matter how brilliant they may be thought of by the world, when preached from the nation’s pulpits, regardless of denomination can never supersede the inerrant, unchanging and eternal Truth that is God’s Word. Can a therapeutic gospel that seeks to entertain and help people feel good about themselves, ever be the solution to decline? Or more importantly lead people to a real repentance and salvation through Christ Jesus.

 

One thing is clear, if the Church of Scotland continues to embrace the way of secular liberalism and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, it will die.  Perhaps then conceivably to be resurrected by its worldly remnant as a glorified social work, community project. To adopt the business franchise methods and model of the emergent church where people gather to hear what their itching ears want to hear, will prove equally unfruitful. Both potential future scenarios offer a pseudo Christian experience where chasing the after the world becomes the raison detre.    

                                                                                                                                     

The moment of truth and decision is upon us, the nation’s church stands facing the metaphorical cross in the road. Which way will it navigate, towards the cross or the crowd?  For a desperate world and church in great peril, the answer should be clear. Preach the Word of God from the Holy Scriptures in their completeness. No addition required. The only vision we need as a church is to preach Christ crucified and raised from the dead. And to obey him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply. 

 

Regarding the part that I've highlighted, that's what was done for centuries, and for centuries it worked. However, it isn't working any more.

 

As you rightly pointed out, there is a mass exodus from Christianity in the western world, and the church is in steep decline in Scotland.  Going back to the uncompromising world of Knox or Calvin, as you seem to be suggesting, won't reverse that decline, it will accelerate it. In that most Christian of countries, the USA, many Christians are looking for something new. The numbers prove that.

 

At least, imo.

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Craig Gordons Gloves
23 hours ago, Cade said:

I can only assume that the majority of "no religion" people are on the coasts.

 

The central part of the USA remains a borderline Christian fundamentalist heartland populated by heavily-armed, full-on bigots.

 

That's bollocks.  I live in Minnesota - right in the central USA and out of the group of friends we have, i know of 2 couples who attend church and claim to be religious, at least anotther 8 couples are quite proud of their 'no religion' stance.  Based on the wide group of people i interact with at work, i would say it's about a 50/50 split and even of the 50 that do claim religion, they're not exactly fundamentalists about it. One of the things i've noticed is that the level of religious fervour, especially in this area is very low.  Yes, there are some massive churches and they're still busy places but it's not fundamental.  Now, when you look at the states where poverty is high, educational levels are low, they're also where you tend to find the religious zealots.  That's not scientific but there's definitely a correlation in my mind.

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Maple Leaf
32 minutes ago, Craig Gordons Gloves said:

 

That's bollocks.  I live in Minnesota - right in the central USA and out of the group of friends we have, i know of 2 couples who attend church and claim to be religious, at least anotther 8 couples are quite proud of their 'no religion' stance.  Based on the wide group of people i interact with at work, i would say it's about a 50/50 split and even of the 50 that do claim religion, they're not exactly fundamentalists about it. One of the things i've noticed is that the level of religious fervour, especially in this area is very low.  Yes, there are some massive churches and they're still busy places but it's not fundamental.  Now, when you look at the states where poverty is high, educational levels are low, they're also where you tend to find the religious zealots.  That's not scientific but there's definitely a correlation in my mind.

 

In the USA, I assume that you're referring to the South.  Here's a small extract from a National Geographic article I read. Apologies for the spacing:

 

In the abolition movement churches “became a support system for blacks. It became almost the end-all be-all for the black community for a number of years,” Thomas says, adding that the Civil Rights movement was dominated—she says “hijacked”—by religious leaders.

“If you either reject or identify as a nonbeliever, you’re seen as betraying your race,” she says.

 

The secularizing West is full of white men. The general U.S. population is 46 percent male and 66 percent white, but about 68 percent of atheists are men, and 78 percent are white.

 

 

And here's a link to the full article:

 

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/

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AlimOzturk

I get how the human hundreds and thousands of years ago we could believe such things as a God.  As without the scientific knowledge how else could a world so perfect that the sun rises and sets and the moon illuminates the night skies be explained? 

 

Well, great scientists, philosophers and explorers have delieverd those answers through logic and determination to know the truth. Of course religious folk will always say science can't disprove the existence of God but then again they can't disprove the existence of a flying spaghetti monster and all of amazing noodleness. Doesn't mean with the available scientific knowledge we should believe such ridiculous notions of omniscient beings. 

 

We just pictured the first ever black hole which is bigger than our entire solar system. The sheer vastness of our Universe is just so big and seemingly random that the evidence of a creator just doesn't seem likely

 

 

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Normthebarman
4 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

All religions are wrong, as there is no such thing as God. 

Only if the religion suggests there is a god. 

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JackLadd

Christianity in moderation is okay but as soon as you start believing every word of the gospels and old testament you are in cuckoo land. It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

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alfajambo
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

I get how the human hundreds and thousands of years ago we could believe such things as a God.  As without the scientific knowledge how else could a world so perfect that the sun rises and sets and the moon illuminates the night skies be explained? 

 

Well, great scientists, philosophers and explorers have delieverd those answers through logic and determination to know the truth. Of course religious folk will always say science can't disprove the existence of God but then again they can't disprove the existence of a flying spaghetti monster and all of amazing noodleness. Doesn't mean with the available scientific knowledge we should believe such ridiculous notions of omniscient beings. 

 

We just pictured the first ever black hole which is bigger than our entire solar system. The sheer vastness of our Universe is just so big and seemingly random that the evidence of a creator just doesn't seem likely

 

 

 

 

Well, not quite AO.

 

You said: “Well, great scientists, philosophers and explorers have delivered those answers through logic and determination to know the truth.”

 

I assume that the questions to the answers to which you refer are related to the big bang and the laws of physics.

In reality the BB theory doesn’t work. This theory only produces an expanding cloud of gas. Theoretical unsubstantiated fudge factors have to be introduced to give credence.

 

The paradigm tells us that the BB universe begins in a singularity. However, there is no known mechanism to start the universe expanding out from the singularity. Let alone its origins.

 

The derivation of life from this scenario is also a mystery. None of the steps in the theorised chemical evolutionary process can be replicated in the laboratory. This because the laws of chemistry prevent them.

 

The BB model/ origin of life, relies upon assumption built upon assumption.

Go and check it out for yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by alfajambo

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Smithee
22 minutes ago, alfajambo said:

 

 

Well, not quite AO.

 

You said: “Well, great scientists, philosophers and explorers have delivered those answers through logic and determination to know the truth.”

 

I assume that the questions to the answers to which you refer are related to the big bang and the laws of physics.

In reality the BB theory doesn’t work. This theory only produces an expanding cloud of gas. Theoretical unsubstantiated fudge factors have to be introduced to give credence.

 

The paradigm tells us that the BB universe begins in a singularity. However, there is no known mechanism to start the universe expanding out from the singularity. Let alone its origins.

 

The derivation of life from this scenario is also a mystery. None of the steps in the theorised chemical evolutionary process can be replicated in the laboratory. This because the laws of chemistry prevent them.

 

The BB model/ origin of life, relies upon assumption built upon assumption.

Go and check it out for yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Must have been some bearded guy on a cloud then eh?

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Romanov Stole My Pension
On 15/04/2019 at 23:44, alfajambo said:

Christianity is not about proving others wrong, but about proving others are loved.

I like you Maple, even though we have never met. And God, he loves you unconditionally, even though you reject His offer of salvation, given freely through Jesus Christ His Son.

 

Tonight, if you die and find yourself in a place of damnation separated from God’s love for eternity - a place of no escape. Who will you blame?

 

A Holy and just God who provided you with a way back to a relationship with him.

Or perhaps the church or other Christians who you feel never passed on the good news message.

 

Hell, it’s the hidden cost and the thing that’s lost on all who will reside there.

 

That’s why people like ColinM and me and others here in our own inadequate way attempt to pass on the message of salvation through Christ.

 

His gracious invitation to you still stands, even after all these years.

 

But if there's an all-powerful, all-knowing god, then would he really be bothered if I pray in a particular way and that I sing songs about Jesus? Surely he'd be more bothered about how I was treating the rest of his people?

 

Also what about those from other parts of the world a few hundred years ago who'd never heard of Jesus, would have have gotten a bye at the gates or would god have sent them down to hell?

 

I'm not religious really, but I'm interested in how others think.

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AlimOzturk
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Must have been some bearded guy on a cloud then eh?

 

That's the thing which get me most about religious folk. They try to disprove scientific evidence for the big bang, Darwinism and the age of the Earth in favour of creator. 

 

If they just took a step back and used their reason and logic which one seems more plausible? It baffles my brain how anyone could argue against science for a god. 

Edited by AlimOzturk

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Justin Z
46 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

That's the thing which get me most about religious folk. They try to disprove scientific evidence for the big bang, Darwinism and the age of the Earth in favour of creator. 

 

If they just took a step back and used their reason and logic which one seems more plausible? It baffles my brain how anyone could argue against science for a god. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

Simple as human psychology, really. Tragic, but predictable.

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PortyJambo
18 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

In the USA, I assume that you're referring to the South.  Here's a small extract from a National Geographic article I read. Apologies for the spacing:

 

In the abolition movement churches “became a support system for blacks. It became almost the end-all be-all for the black community for a number of years,” Thomas says, adding that the Civil Rights movement was dominated—she says “hijacked”—by religious leaders.

“If you either reject or identify as a nonbeliever, you’re seen as betraying your race,” she says.

 

The secularizing West is full of white men. The general U.S. population is 46 percent male and 66 percent white, but about 68 percent of atheists are men, and 78 percent are white.

 

 

And here's a link to the full article:

 

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/

 

Probably the same 7 Bible Belt states that still have constitutions that ban atheists from holding office. Legally unenforceable, but says it all that it's still part of those state's constitution. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#United_States

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Ugly American
On 16/04/2019 at 15:39, AlimOzturk said:

I get how the human hundreds and thousands of years ago we could believe such things as a God.  As without the scientific knowledge how else could a world so perfect that the sun rises and sets and the moon illuminates the night skies be explained? 

 

Well, great scientists, philosophers and explorers have delieverd those answers through logic and determination to know the truth. Of course religious folk will always say science can't disprove the existence of God but then again they can't disprove the existence of a flying spaghetti monster and all of amazing noodleness. Doesn't mean with the available scientific knowledge we should believe such ridiculous notions of omniscient beings. 

 

We just pictured the first ever black hole which is bigger than our entire solar system. The sheer vastness of our Universe is just so big and seemingly random that the evidence of a creator just doesn't seem likely

 

Quite a few extremely important scientists and philosophers continue to profess various religions. Modern genetic theory, without which Darwinism wouldn't hold up, was developed by a Catholic priest. Darwin himself was on the verge of entering the priesthood before he went on the Voyage of the Beagle. That, of course, isn't an actual argument for the existence of God or the worth of religious practice. Just that the two aren't inherently contradictory (some versions, of course, are).

 

British folk seem to get hung up on the Man in the Sky argument a lot, though, even more than Americans. Must be an issue with the Anglophone churches... Tedious, useless argument, if you ask me.

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scott herbertson
Posted (edited)
On 15/04/2019 at 23:44, alfajambo said:

Christianity is not about proving others wrong, but about proving others are loved.

I like you Maple, even though we have never met. And God, he loves you unconditionally, even though you reject His offer of salvation, given freely through Jesus Christ His Son.

 

Tonight, if you die and find yourself in a place of damnation separated from God’s love for eternity - a place of no escape. Who will you blame?

 

A Holy and just God who provided you with a way back to a relationship with him.

Or perhaps the church or other Christians who you feel never passed on the good news message.

 

Hell, it’s the hidden cost and the thing that’s lost on all who will reside there.

 

That’s why people like ColinM and me and others here in our own inadequate way attempt to pass on the message of salvation through Christ.

 

His gracious invitation to you still stands, even after all these years.

 

 

 

Would it be reasonable to blame God? For allowing the Bible, full of contradictions and historical inaccuracy, to be proclaimed as 'The Word' ? How is anyone who can understand history  or logic supposed to guess that someone omniscient wrote it or allowed it to be proclaimed as 'all true'.

 

If there is a final exam based on a badly argued and constructed book of ethics isn't it reasonable to ascribe some of the blame to the author?

 

Secondly, I'd blame the Church, who have taken that book and overlaid on it all sorts of ridiculous claims - relics and miracles (done in his name) for starters, and leading ignorant followers into committing sinful acts like inquisitions and forceful and corrupt conversions*. If God exists he is surely guilty of negligence in allowing these terrible fraudsters to mislead their followers into certain eternal damnation.

 


*Not to mention crusades against unbelievers, heresy and witchcraft trials etc

 

 

On Miracles

 

I'd recommend anyone, religious or not read the short essay 'On miracles' by our very own David Hume - a masterppiece of writing but also a superb logical argument against the existence of miracles

 

For the lazy, here's a wee video

 

Edited by scott herbertson

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Jambo-Jimbo
4 hours ago, Ugly American said:

 

Quite a few extremely important scientists and philosophers continue to profess various religions. Modern genetic theory, without which Darwinism wouldn't hold up, was developed by a Catholic priest. Darwin himself was on the verge of entering the priesthood before he went on the Voyage of the Beagle. That, of course, isn't an actual argument for the existence of God or the worth of religious practice. Just that the two aren't inherently contradictory (some versions, of course, are).

 

British folk seem to get hung up on the Man in the Sky argument a lot, though, even more than Americans. Must be an issue with the Anglophone churches... Tedious, useless argument, if you ask me.

 

Or maybe it might be that the UK is further down the road than the US is in terms of rejecting god/religion and people being able to do so publicly without fear of discrimination.

 

In the UK most people couldn't care less whether somebody is religous or not, whereas in the US it seems to still be a big deal, who knows maybe in 20/30/40 years time the US will be where the UK is now, the trend now in the US seems to show that it's heading that way.

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Justin Z
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Ugly American said:

British folk seem to get hung up on the Man in the Sky argument a lot, though, even more than Americans. Must be an issue with the Anglophone churches... Tedious, useless argument, if you ask me.

 

When discussing reality, it is certainly a very annoying one to have to deal with, isn't it? :wink:

 

Edited by Justin Z

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Smithee
8 hours ago, Ugly American said:

 

Quite a few extremely important scientists and philosophers continue to profess various religions. Modern genetic theory, without which Darwinism wouldn't hold up, was developed by a Catholic priest. Darwin himself was on the verge of entering the priesthood before he went on the Voyage of the Beagle. That, of course, isn't an actual argument for the existence of God or the worth of religious practice. Just that the two aren't inherently contradictory (some versions, of course, are).

 

British folk seem to get hung up on the Man in the Sky argument a lot, though, even more than Americans. Must be an issue with the Anglophone churches... Tedious, useless argument, if you ask me.

I wouldn't say British people are hung up on the argument, it's just a device to show how ridiculous the whole concept is, and it's far from useless in that regard. 

 

Christians want to turn debates towards theological discussion, as if clever arguments will somehow make the whole thing more likely. I can see how they'd see it as tedious when that's not entertained.

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Ugly American
7 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Or maybe it might be that the UK is further down the road than the US is in terms of rejecting god/religion and people being able to do so publicly without fear of discrimination.

 

In the UK most people couldn't care less whether somebody is religous or not, whereas in the US it seems to still be a big deal, who knows maybe in 20/30/40 years time the US will be where the UK is now, the trend now in the US seems to show that it's heading that way.

 

Aye, the UK's showing great signs of modern, cosmopolitan, independent, and coherent thinking these days? (Not that US is in any great shakes, but y'all are doing a great job of taking the pressure off of us for periods.)  An alternative theory is that an established state religion is actually really bad for the church, and the Evangelical's recent attempts to create one in the US is having much the same effect as having an establishment church in Europe is -- killing the soul of the church.

 

5 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

When discussing reality, it is certainly a very annoying one to have to deal with, isn't it? :wink:

 

 

Indeed, it's the wrong question to be talking about in nearly every circumstance. Doesn't add anything and just leads to stupid discussions that make no sense.

 

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

I wouldn't say British people are hung up on the argument, it's just a device to show how ridiculous the whole concept is, and it's far from useless in that regard. 

 

Christians want to turn debates towards theological discussion, as if clever arguments will somehow make the whole thing more likely. I can see how they'd see it as tedious when that's not entertained.

 

Yes, very odd to be having a theological discussion when talking about religion. And yet every time I present non-theological arguments about religion here, everyone keeps trying to get me to answer the Man in the Sky question like it adds anything. (spoiler: I don't believe in a Man in the Sky, thanks for your concern.)

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Ugly American

I should add -- folks in the UK should probably be prepared for some form of boom in religious observance over the next few decades. Periods of low religious observance are pretty common throughout history, and are often followed by religious awakenings. No idea what the next one will be, just think there's a very good chance of it happening.

 

And for those who will insist that now it's different because we have Science, please specify what the turning point was in obtaining Science and when exactly it occurred.

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ri Alban
On 17/04/2019 at 11:55, AlimOzturk said:

 

That's the thing which get me most about religious folk. They try to disprove scientific evidence for the big bang, Darwinism and the age of the Earth in favour of creator. 

 

If they just took a step back and used their reason and logic which one seems more plausible? It baffles my brain how anyone could argue against science for a god. 

Science is now saying the universe has always existed. That there was more than one big bang. Make up yer mind, FFS. And can you prove there is no God, please. No, I didn't think so. 

The arrogance of the ignorant on this thread is of biblical proportions. 

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Bridge of Djoum
1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

Science is now saying the universe has always existed. That there was more than one big bang. Make up yer mind, FFS. And can you prove there is no God, please. No, I didn't think so. 

The arrogance of the ignorant on this thread is of biblical proportions. 

You don't believe in science?

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