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Levein - what now?


dellboy1971

Levein  

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  1. 1. What now for Levein?

    • Go right now
    • Make decision in the summer
    • In charge next season


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10 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

A cup run clearly isn’t a one of game it’s a sequence of games. It’s a one off game against that particular team, Partick aside but the campaign should be judged as a whole. To say we’ve played nobody apart from Celtic is an embarrassing attitude. Hearts forever and forever more have been knocked out the Cup competitions by ‘lesser teams’. Airdrie, Falkirk and St Mirren are names the spring to mind from our recent history! You can name a bunch of horrendous performances anyone who’s pro Levein can retort by saying we’ve beat Aberdeen twice, Kilmarnock twice away, beat Celtic, nearly taken a point from Celtic with 10 men, unbeaten at Easter Road and had two great cup runs. To say you judge a manager over a season and then discount two of the competitions we have played in whilst also discounting a lot of very good league games just undermines whatever point you may have had.

 

He's going to finish 6th. Again. That's the bottom line. And the team has collapsed in the process. 

 

You're being incredibly generous discounting the teams we've played in the cups. Whilst you can only beat what's in front of you, there's no denying we've stumbled through an incredibly easy draw to the final whilst being fairly unconvincing throughout.  

Edited by bistokid
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Mr Elwood P
6 hours ago, JamboGraham said:

 

I think this argument has been overplayed and we should have adapted to the situation quicker...however...

 

Aberdeen, Hearts, Kilmarnock and Aberdeen have all used a high number of players in their first teams this season (26,31,29,35).

 

For the first 33 games Killie had injured players unavailable for selection for 15 matches in total. We were 141 matches, Hibs 128 and Aberdeen 71.

 

For me that is the primary reason that a club with the resources of Kilmarnock has been able to maintain their high position over two seasons. I would also think that the very high unavailable numbers from both us and Hibs play a significant, but not entire, part in the fact that both clubs have had such underwhelming seasons in the league minus a short burst (us early in the season, them late in the season). 

 

It’s not really the volume of injuries as much but the individual players. Berra and Naismith are simply irreplaceable for us. If we had had the same number of injuries but both of them had played almost every game we’d be 3rd, in my opinion. The injury to Berra didn’t end when he was back on the park, it’s taken him a long time to get back to full fitness which he seemed to be on Sunday against the wee mob.

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Mr Elwood P
2 minutes ago, bistokid said:

 

He's going to finish 6th. Again. That's the bottom line. And the team has collapsed in the process. 

 

You're being incredibly generous discounting the teams we've played in the cups. Whilst you can only beat what's in front of you, there's is no denying we've stumbled through an incredibly easy draw to the final whilst being fairly unconvincing throughout.  

 

I’ve not discounted the teams we’ve played in the cup I’ve acknowledged that playing ‘lesser’ teams has been problematic for Hearts teams throughout our history. That’s the complete opposite. Anyone who remembers the two games against Airdrie will be gracious enough to accept every cup win is a good win. The much lauded 2012 cup win began with a 1-0 win v Auchinleck. The 1998 cup run was three lower league teams all at Tynecastle. 

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49 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

It’s not really the volume of injuries as much but the individual players. Berra and Naismith are simply irreplaceable for us. If we had had the same number of injuries but both of them had played almost every game we’d be 3rd, in my opinion. The injury to Berra didn’t end when he was back on the park, it’s taken him a long time to get back to full fitness which he seemed to be on Sunday against the wee mob.

Berra was missing in action from Aug to end March, Naismith has really been missing in action since Dens Park in October, Uche missed three months, Soutar two months. 

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fabienleclerq
9 hours ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Would you rather finish fourth or be in the Scottish Cup final on May 25th? With our horrendous and yet continuing spate of injuries we were never going to sustain a challenge on all three fronts. We excelled in the Premiership and League Cup until November when the league form dropped off a cliff and we lost the League Cup semi final to a team with a bigger wage bill than Champions League semi finalists Ajax! The Scottish Cup run has been excellent and Levein also guided us past Hibs and St Johnstone last season in the same competition. We were unlucky against Motherwell to lose to a wonder strike at the end. Under Neilson the constant complaints were lack of cup runs and poor derby performances. Levein has managed a number of derby wins, including taking 4/6 points at Easter Road this term, whilst also getting us to the League Cup semi and Scottish Cup final. The league campaign has flatlined after an excellent start but I'd much rather be at Hampden on May 25th than battling it out for 3rd or 4th. Levein will be here next season, we have secured most of our key players and once we add a bit more quality next season we will be able to challenge on all three fronts. 

 

I'd rather be in the cup final, we have absolutely been hammered by injuries and losing Dunne didn't help either. We never managed well with those injuries due to both tactics and players signed by the manager not being good enough though. 

 

Cup runs have been good, you can only beat what's in front of you and its not like we've a great record doing that. Derbies, we have taken 4/6 at the Giro but 1/6 at home remember. The Derby at the weekend he's cost us a shot at 3 points imo by waiting so long to make a sub when a hibs goal was coming. He even said in his interview he thought the game was even when they scored, hibs were well on top at that point. 

 

I've been undecided about keeping him but tbh after the weekend I think I'd rather have a more proactive coach who changes the game rather than waits for the opposition to score. 

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48 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

It’s not really the volume of injuries as much but the individual players. Berra and Naismith are simply irreplaceable for us. If we had had the same number of injuries but both of them had played almost every game we’d be 3rd, in my opinion. The injury to Berra didn’t end when he was back on the park, it’s taken him a long time to get back to full fitness which he seemed to be on Sunday against the wee mob.

 

This point exactly. There’s not much in it below Rangers. Say we had another 8 games this season with Uche and Naismith? How many points might that have yielded? Or If Vanaczek had delivered anywhere near his form at previous club. If we had not thought we were signing him and not let Lafferty go (or got a stop gap for Lafferty). If Harry hadn’t had 5 injuries. You could list a few more real challenges outwith our control. 

 

Any one or a combination of these should have improved us further forward, created more goals, made us look more exciting to watch and gained us a few more points. 

 

(I have left out the defensive challenges we have faced which wouldn’t have helped create but might have saved a few goals/points).

 

How would we have viewed the season then if we had half a dozen more points and play had been more positive? 

 

Accepted, Craig is too slow in making changes during games to address issues. His answer to the challenges up front are to attempt to shore up at the back which hasn’t really worked either. But it’s been pretty difficult to put out an exciting, attacking team given these challenges which were pretty much out of his hands.

 

he readily accepts where we are missing/ needs improvement. Has publically stated it’s not wholesale change this summer and he’s looking to bring in 4 players who will be materially better than what we have in the positions needed and should have the budget to do so. 

 

I cant go through another season like this one watching the eye-bleeding stuff but I’m prepared to put my head on the block and back Levein for next season. 

 

Success for me will be at least 3 incoming players in attacking areas who we believe improve the quality up front. 3rd or 4th place finish and one good cup run. 

 

Will be back to revisit this statement come the end of the Summer and end of the Season and hope I can say “told you so”. 

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When I think back to the 80s and early 90s I would have given my right arm to win a trophy, any trophy.  During this period when had quite a few seasons where we did well in league and secured a European place.  Every single time I would have swapped that to get our hands on the Scottish cup, just once!  Now having seen us win it 3 times in a little over 20 years it tends to cloud judgement a little.  Would I swap a chance to win the cup for a European place?  No F****** way.  25th May will be hard but  you have to be in it to win it.  Levein?  Let's park that debate until 26th May.  

Edited by TexasAndy
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10 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

I'd rather be in the cup final, we have absolutely been hammered by injuries and losing Dunne didn't help either. We never managed well with those injuries due to both tactics and players signed by the manager not being good enough though. 

 

Cup runs have been good, you can only beat what's in front of you and its not like we've a great record doing that. Derbies, we have taken 4/6 at the Giro but 1/6 at home remember. The Derby at the weekend he's cost us a shot at 3 points imo by waiting so long to make a sub when a hibs goal was coming. He even said in his interview he thought the game was even when they scored, hibs were well on top at that point. 

 

I've been undecided about keeping him but tbh after the weekend I think I'd rather have a more proactive coach who changes the game rather than waits for the opposition to score. 

Underlined bit. How many central defenders should we have signed in addition to Berra, Souttar, Dunne, Dikamona, shaugnasey, Smith. A club our size can’t have half a dozen equally competent players for each position. 

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15 minutes ago, Sid said:

Underlined bit. How many central defenders should we have signed in addition to Berra, Souttar, Dunne, Dikamona, shaugnasey, Smith. A club our size can’t have half a dozen equally competent players for each position. 

Add Haring to that list by the way 

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fabienleclerq
16 minutes ago, Sid said:

Underlined bit. How many central defenders should we have signed in addition to Berra, Souttar, Dunne, Dikamona, shaugnasey, Smith. A club our size can’t have half a dozen equally competent players for each position. 

Dunne going meant Berra coming back in early, shaughnessy isnt equally competent. In regards to players not being good enough that CL signed I meant the likes of Wighton and McLean up front. 

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Mr Elwood P
46 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

I'd rather be in the cup final, we have absolutely been hammered by injuries and losing Dunne didn't help either. We never managed well with those injuries due to both tactics and players signed by the manager not being good enough though. 

 

Cup runs have been good, you can only beat what's in front of you and its not like we've a great record doing that. Derbies, we have taken 4/6 at the Giro but 1/6 at home remember. The Derby at the weekend he's cost us a shot at 3 points imo by waiting so long to make a sub when a hibs goal was coming. He even said in his interview he thought the game was even when they scored, hibs were well on top at that point. 

 

I've been undecided about keeping him but tbh after the weekend I think I'd rather have a more proactive coach who changes the game rather than waits for the opposition to score. 

 

Two ways to view the derby. Too slow to react, cost us a point. When he did react the introduction of Maclean changed the flow of the match in our favour. He was brave to play two youth players on Sunday and was also brave to bring on Maclean considering the abuse he has received from the uneducated amongst our support!

 

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fabienleclerq
3 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Two ways to view the derby. Too slow to react, cost us a point. When he did react the introduction of Maclean changed the flow of the match in our favour. He was brave to play two youth players on Sunday and was also brave to bring on Maclean considering the abuse he has received from the uneducated amongst our support!

 

 

The subs defo changed the game in our favour, he just waits until they scored to do it. I dunno if you were there but we needed to change and he waited until they got a pen to look like he was gonna do it, they missed the pen and he told everyone to stand down. He's very reactive. 

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BOBTHEBRUCE

I wonder what the excuses will be if we lose the cup final. (Which is the most likely scenario, like it or not) 

 

There's always 1 last thing to cling on to for the happy clappers. Surely there's nothing left after that? 

 

Or are you all looking forward to our pre season tour of Ireland?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

A cup run clearly isn’t a one of game it’s a sequence of games. It’s a one off game against that particular team, Partick aside but the campaign should be judged as a whole. To say we’ve played nobody apart from Celtic is an embarrassing attitude. Hearts forever and forever more have been knocked out the Cup competitions by ‘lesser teams’. Airdrie, Falkirk and St Mirren are names that spring to mind from our recent history! You can name a bunch of horrendous performances anyone who’s pro Levein can retort by saying we’ve beat Aberdeen twice, Kilmarnock twice away, beat Celtic, nearly taken a point from Celtic with 10 men, unbeaten at Easter Road and had two great cup runs. To say you judge a manager over a season and then discount two of the competitions we have played in whilst also discounting a lot of very good league games just undermines whatever point you may have had.

 

Spot on.

 

It has been up and down but the football we played that we had trained to play when we had a full strength team was excellent.

 

The fixtures were favourable in theory but we beat a lot of teams this season we have struggled to beat in previous seasons and when at full strength our away record improved.

 

IMO the football we played at the start of this season was the best we had played in the top league since Burley - it wasn’t as good of course but I can’t recall us playing as good football as consistently since that Burley team.

 

That will be challenged because people hate Levein but i’ll debate properly set out examples.

 

Edited by Jammy T
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Jambof3tornado
6 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

The subs defo changed the game in our favour, he just waits until they scored to do it. I dunno if you were there but we needed to change and he waited until they got a pen to look like he was gonna do it, they missed the pen and he told everyone to stand down. He's very reactive. 

Correct. Our subs are so often a reaction to our opponents rather than us proactively looking to change the game.

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Mr Elwood P
26 minutes ago, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

I wonder what the excuses will be if we lose the cup final. (Which is the most likely scenario, like it or not) 

 

There's always 1 last thing to cling on to for the happy clappers. Surely there's nothing left after that? 

 

Or are you all looking forward to our pre season tour of Ireland?

 

 

 

 

Why would we need an excuse for losing a cup final to a team with a wage bill ten times ours and who are on the verge of an unprecedented treble treble? If we win it will be one of the greatest achievements in our history. Levein masterminded two victories over a Brendan Rodgers Celtic team, hopefully he can manage one against a Neil Lennon Celtic team.

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39 minutes ago, Jammy T said:

 

Spot on.

 

It has been up and down but the football we played that we had trained to play when we had a full strength team was excellent.

 

The fixtures were favourable in theory but we beat a lot of teams this season we have struggled to beat in previous seasons and when at full strength our away record improved.

 

IMO the football we played at the start of this season was the best we had played in the top league since Burley - it wasn’t as good of course but I can’t recall us playing as good football as consistently since that Burley team.

 

That will be challenged because people hate Levein but i’ll debate properly set out examples.

 

Those are seriously maroon tinted spectacles Jammy! At Kilmarnock and Motherwell we toughed it out defensively and took our chances, first half at Hamilton we were poor. 

The fact is that those victories and most of our other highlights of this season have revolved around Naismith. His form in the autumn got him back in the national team. Being reliant on one outstanding player is not a way to build a team and our one dimensional approach when he is not in the team reveals a lack of quality on the coaching side. That needs addressed in order for us to make progress. 

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5 minutes ago, bighalders said:

Option 4 - sack him 26th May and his entire backroom team 

 That would come under decision in the summer, no ?

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Mr Elwood P
6 minutes ago, bighalders said:

Option 4 - sack him 26th May and his entire backroom team 

 

Before or after the parade?

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All roads lead to Gorgie

Decision in the summer for me. I think the best way going forward is for him to step down then, after we have won the cup that is!

 

 

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1 hour ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

The subs defo changed the game in our favour, he just waits until they scored to do it. I dunno if you were there but we needed to change and he waited until they got a pen to look like he was gonna do it, they missed the pen and he told everyone to stand down. He's very reactive. 

The Hibs goal was a fluke.

Are you really suggesting that would not have happened if he had made the subs earlier.?

Mystic Meg!

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grumpyespana
2 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

Decision in the summer for me. I think the best way going forward is for him to step down then, after we have won the cup that is!

 

 

He we go again then a new manager coming in HE will demand his own players and backroom staff which will cost us a pretty packet in compensation its a NO NO from me. As Craig has stated he will only need three or four BETTER quality  players next season and Steven back we could have a similar start as this season and if we stay clear of major injuries to our key players the world is our oyster.

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Hampden Demolition

Sunday was another below par performance and we got lucky with the equaliser. My stance hasn’t changed - Levein needs to go at the end of the season to give us any chance of progression. He has had his chance to sign his own players and we are no further forward. Allowing him to continue over the summer and into next season runs the risk of writing off yet another year. Change is needed.

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All roads lead to Gorgie
3 minutes ago, grumpyespana said:

He we go again then a new manager coming in HE will demand his own players and backroom staff which will cost us a pretty packet in compensation its a NO NO from me. As Craig has stated he will only need three or four BETTER quality  players next season and Steven back we could have a similar start as this season and if we stay clear of major injuries to our key players the world is our oyster.

So you think Craig can find these BETTER players this time around when some new arrivals we were lead to believe to be better arriving, like Vanacek, turned out to worse or no better than some players we released.

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1 minute ago, Hampden Demolition said:

Sunday was another below par performance and we got lucky with the equaliser. My stance hasn’t changed - Levein needs to go at the end of the season to give us any chance of progression. He has had his chance to sign his own players and we are no further forward. Allowing him to continue over the summer and into next season runs the risk of writing off yet another year. Change is needed.

 Why was the equaliser lucky ?

 

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Hampden Demolition
Just now, Boab said:

 Why was the equaliser lucky ?

 

 

Lucky was maybe the wrong word to use but I don’t think we were good enough over the course of the game. Started well and ended well but there is still a lot missing in between.

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Just now, Hampden Demolition said:

 

Lucky was maybe the wrong word to use but I don’t think we were good enough over the course of the game. Started well and ended well but there is still a lot missing in between.

What was the right word?

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grumpyespana
7 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

So you think Craig can find these BETTER players this time around when some new arrivals we were lead to believe to be better arriving, like Vanacek, turned out to worse or no better than some players we released.

Every transfer is a gamble to be honest and I have my opinion and you have yours we are both Hearts supporters and want the best for our club lol.

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8 minutes ago, Hampden Demolition said:

 

Lucky was maybe the wrong word to use but I don’t think we were good enough over the course of the game. Started well and ended well but there is still a lot missing in between.

 I agree we lost our way a bit in the middle part of the game but could have still sneaked a win at the end.

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2 hours ago, Sid said:

 

This point exactly. There’s not much in it below Rangers. Say we had another 8 games this season with Uche and Naismith? How many points might that have yielded? Or If Vanaczek had delivered anywhere near his form at previous club. If we had not thought we were signing him and not let Lafferty go (or got a stop gap for Lafferty). If Harry hadn’t had 5 injuries. You could list a few more real challenges outwith our control. 

 

Any one or a combination of these should have improved us further forward, created more goals, made us look more exciting to watch and gained us a few more points. 

 

(I have left out the defensive challenges we have faced which wouldn’t have helped create but might have saved a few goals/points).

 

How would we have viewed the season then if we had half a dozen more points and play had been more positive? 

 

Accepted, Craig is too slow in making changes during games to address issues. His answer to the challenges up front are to attempt to shore up at the back which hasn’t really worked either. But it’s been pretty difficult to put out an exciting, attacking team given these challenges which were pretty much out of his hands.

 

he readily accepts where we are missing/ needs improvement. Has publically stated it’s not wholesale change this summer and he’s looking to bring in 4 players who will be materially better than what we have in the positions needed and should have the budget to do so. 

 

I cant go through another season like this one watching the eye-bleeding stuff but I’m prepared to put my head on the block and back Levein for next season. 

 

Success for me will be at least 3 incoming players in attacking areas who we believe improve the quality up front. 3rd or 4th place finish and one good cup run. 

 

Will be back to revisit this statement come the end of the Summer and end of the Season and hope I can say “told you so”. 

 

If things went out way all the time we'd be a great team is effectively what you are saying. What team wouldn't?

 

 

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All roads lead to Gorgie
Just now, grumpyespana said:

Every transfer is a gamble to be honest and I have my opinion and you have yours we are both Hearts supporters and want the best for our club lol.

I will be there come what may and if CL is still there I will still give the team my full backing. If someone new is in the hot seat I might just be a bit more excited about the future but again that is a gamble in its own right I suppose. I think this erratic season has changed my opinion a bit and even when we have nearly a full squad the team still seem to lack focus week to week. :thumbsup:

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1 minute ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

I will be there come what may and if CL is still there I will still give the team my full backing. If someone new is in the hot seat I might just be a bit more excited about the future but again that is a gamble in its own right I suppose. I think this erratic season has changed my opinion a bit and even when we have nearly a full squad the team still seem to lack focus week to week. :thumbsup:

 

Do you not think the erratic season might have had something to do with injuries to key personnel for longish periods, some at the same time, or was it entirely CL's mismanagement that caused it to be erratic?

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6 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

So you think Craig can find these BETTER players this time around when some new arrivals we were lead to believe to be better arriving, like Vanacek, turned out to worse or no better than some players we released.

 

6 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

If things went out way all the time we'd be a great team is effectively what you are saying. What team wouldn't?

 

 

 

No. I am saying that this season we have had more challenges of greater impact than the other clubs around us. That is why I was saying if any one of these had not happened to us, it could have gained us a few extra points/goals/better displays which would have had us in a much better place as a few points would have made a difference. 

 

If I was talking about all of the time and everything which went wrong didn’t, I’d be claiming we should be winning the League. The only time that has happened is Leicester wining the Leauge having played the least number of players and, by inference, avoided all injuries. 

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All roads lead to Gorgie
1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

Do you not think the erratic season might have had something to do with injuries to key personnel for longish periods, some at the same time, or was it entirely CL's mismanagement that caused it to be erratic?

The injuries have been a large part of it but chopping and changing formations, using players with little pace in the midfield or standing off teams and letting them dictate the games also could be stated as reasons for inconsistency.

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NB on can Craig find better players?  

Given a significantly higher budget to spend, he doesn’t have to fish in the bargain basement as he has done for the last few years working with a budget below Hibs and Aberdeen and expectations to compete with them. 

 

He can bid for players on a par with them but with superior training facilities, stadium and fans so yes. He should be able to find them. 

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27 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

The injuries have been a large part of it but chopping and changing formations, using players with little pace in the midfield or standing off teams and letting them dictate the games also could be stated as reasons for inconsistency.

 

Unless you have 2 or 3 like-for-like options for every position, that's what you have to do when you have injuries: same with loss of form.

We don't have 2 Naismiths, 2 Harings, 2 Soapies, 2 Uches etc of equal ability and when Clare feels sick during the warm-up should we just have made him play?

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fabienleclerq
1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

The Hibs goal was a fluke.

Are you really suggesting that would not have happened if he had made the subs earlier.?

Mystic Meg!

 

It was a fluke but then what was slivka missing a sitter from  6 yards or Mcnulty missing a penalty? Hibs were well on top and looked like scoring and they did. Our goal had every bit as much luck as theirs. 

 

You've just made up a prediction I never said and called me mystic Meg, strange laddie. 

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All roads lead to Gorgie
7 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Unless you have 2 or 3 like-for-like options for every position, that's what you have to do when you have injuries: same with loss of form.

We don't have 2 Naismiths, 2 Harings, 2 Soapies, 2 Uches etc of equal ability and when Clare feels sick during the warm-up should we just have made him play?

If they are unfit no but if they played well the week before and are then dropped to maybe bring in a player that Craig feels will stop an opposition player that he over worries about then the continuity is often lost. Just my thoughts anyway. 

 

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2 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

It was a fluke but then what was slivka missing a sitter from  6 yards or Mcnulty missing a penalty? Hibs were well on top and looked like scoring and they did. Our goal had every bit as much luck as theirs. 

 

You've just made up a prediction I never said and called me mystic Meg, strange laddie. 

 For the second time, our goal was not lucky !

Where are people getting this nonsense ?

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fabienleclerq
1 hour ago, Boab said:

 Why was the equaliser lucky ?

 

 

McLean played the ball with his right and it deflected off his left! Just escaped mallen and dropped perfectly for Uche. 

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3 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

McLean played the ball with his right and it deflected off his left! Just escaped mallen and dropped perfectly for Uche. 

 

It didn’t “ drop “ anywhere !

Behave, man !

Comparing our goal to theirs ?

:tlj:

 

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jambos are go!

Not a big fan of Levein ever since he dumped us for Leceister on the eve of a Euro tie. Nonetheless, our best chance of lifting the Cup IMO is a tactical triumph not player availability. Even that is a long shot.

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fabienleclerq
8 minutes ago, Boab said:

 

It didn’t “ drop “ anywhere !

Behave, man !

Comparing our goal to theirs ?

:tlj:

 

If McLean hits it properly we don't score, I used the term dropped as it appeared right at Uche. You can use as many Tommy Lee's as you want but if you don't think there was any luck in our goal you're kidding yourself. 

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21 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

If McLean hits it properly we don't score, I used the term dropped as it appeared right at Uche. You can use as many Tommy Lee's as you want but if you don't think there was any luck in our goal you're kidding yourself. 

 

?

 

It appeared ? If Uche had scuffed it, it wouldn’t have been a goal either.

You’re being very harsh, mate. It was a good goal and no luck about it either.

Edited by Boab
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fabienleclerq
3 minutes ago, Boab said:

 

?

 

It appeared ? If Uche had scuffed it, it wouldn’t have been a goal either.

You’re being very harsh, mate. It was a good goal and no luck about it either.

 

Have you even watched it? McLean tries to pick out Djoum, slips the ball hits his other foot and deflects to Uche. No luck about it?

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JamboGraham
22 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

If McLean hits it properly we don't score, I used the term dropped as it appeared right at Uche. You can use as many Tommy Lee's as you want but if you don't think there was any luck in our goal you're kidding yourself. 

 

I can see the argument you are trying to make but it is very one dimensional thinking...where does the definition of 'luck' start and stop in any goal? Does the luck need to be on the final strike, or the assist? What about a deflected ball on the half way line that five touches later is in the back of the net, is that still luck? Or a mishit shot at one end that 12 touches later is in the net at the other end? How about placing two strikers in the box so that any deflection from one has a chance of falling to the other striker, is that purely luck or positive play by committing two attackers?

 

How about at the other end? Was the penalty miss lucky on our part, or simply a mistake from an opposition player, how do you define the difference, or Slivka? Are we lucky that he headed directly at Bobby, or is it good play from Bobby to ensure he was in the optimum position to make the save?

 

Is there luck in our goal? Is there luck in every goal?

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fabienleclerq
1 minute ago, JamboGraham said:

 

I can see the argument you are trying to make but it is very one dimensional thinking...where does the definition of 'luck' start and stop in any goal? Does the luck need to be on the final strike, or the assist? What about a deflected ball on the half way line that five touches later is in the back of the net, is that still luck? Or a mishit shot at one end that 12 touches later is in the net at the other end? How about placing two strikers in the box so that any deflection from one has a chance of falling to the other striker, is that purely luck or positive play by committing two attackers?

 

How about at the other end? Was the penalty miss lucky on our part, or simply a mistake from an opposition player, how do you define the difference, or Slivka? Are we lucky that he headed directly at Bobby, or is it good play from Bobby to ensure he was in the optimum position to make the save?

 

Is there luck in our goal? Is there luck in every goal?

 

Well I'm arguing there was some luck in our goal, McLean hasn't meant to pass it where it went and Uche slots it in. 

 

Sideshow Boab is arguing there was no luck involved. 

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BOBTHEBRUCE
3 hours ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Why would we need an excuse for losing a cup final to a team with a wage bill ten times ours and who are on the verge of an unprecedented treble treble? If we win it will be one of the greatest achievements in our history. Levein masterminded two victories over a Brendan Rodgers Celtic team, hopefully he can manage one against a Neil Lennon Celtic team.

I think you know what I mean. 

The fact that we could still win the cup is used as an excuse for backing Levein, and its probably the last legitimate excuse left. 

 

If Celtic win the cup, 

What excuse will you then use to support Levein after another terrible season?

 

 

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14 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Cup final doesn't matter. Getting rid of Dr Evil is far more important than having any chance of success. 

:lol: 

 

I know you’re being sarcastic, but it almost feels as though what you are saying, is indeed some folks agendas.

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