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How do we now judge a 'striker'?


i8hibsh

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10 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

He is young?

He has had one nice touch in 4 games?

Blind faith that he will come good?

 

We know who I am talking about.

 

I am now out of suggestions.

 

 

If you think he ain’t a great player that is fine, it’s your opinion a there’s a lot of people will agree with you. 

For me, we as a team are not exactly firing all cylinders, CL putting this lad on the firing line is the problem, he clearly isn’t a confident lad and for me shouldn’t be anywhere near the first team. Keena for me looks fearless and looks like the type that could deal with a bit of pressure therefor should be the one that plays off Uche

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10 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

He is young?

He has had one nice touch in 4 games?

Blind faith that he will come good?

 

We know who I am talking about.

 

I am now out of suggestions.

 

 

Folk were saying Wighton had a good game on Saturday because he closed down a centre half 3 times in the 2nd half on Saturday. Forget the fact he missed a sitter from 3 yards out, had a break into the box where his 1st instinct was to shite it, look up & want to pass when a proper forward would've had a go at goal. And do pretty much nothing else. 

 

That's their idea of a good striker.:laugh2:

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Where we are with strikers this season 

 

GOALS

Naismith 14

Uche 6

MacLean 6 

Clare 5 

Keena 1

Morrison 1

Lafferty 1

 

Strikers (I include Clare) 33 out of 62 goals (53%)

 

MINUTES PLAYED per GOALS SCORED

 

(This is based on stats that may not include last couple of games) 

 

Naismith - 164

Uche - 232

MacLean- 335

Clare - 371

Keena - 217

Morrison - 1888

Lafferty - 333

 

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Time to judge a striker is when they have had a few games with good service in the box.

 

Unfair to judge any of our strikers tbf.

Edited by Gambo
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12 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

He is young?

He has had one nice touch in 4 games?

Blind faith that he will come good?

 

We know who I am talking about.

 

I am now out of suggestions.

 

 

2 legs and a head is enough to get through our scouting criteria

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1 hour ago, Bking9 said:

If you think he ain’t a great player that is fine, it’s your opinion a there’s a lot of people will agree with you. 

For me, we as a team are not exactly firing all cylinders, CL putting this lad on the firing line is the problem, he clearly isn’t a confident lad and for me shouldn’t be anywhere near the first team. Keena for me looks fearless and looks like the type that could deal with a bit of pressure therefor should be the one that plays off Uche

 

Agree with this too.

 

It's good to see that this thread, having started off as a childish dig at a young player by an absolute brain donor, has actually stimulated a coherent debate for a change.

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58 minutes ago, Gambo said:

Time to judge a striker is when they have had a few games with good service in the box.

 

Unfair to judge any of our strikers tbf.

 

Correct, it's not like any of our strikers have been missing 4-5 sitters every game, not have they failed to get on the end of through balls or crosses across the 6 yard box.

 

Considering the number of clear cut chances we have created in the last few months i'd say that the number of goals from our forwards is in fact actually quite impressive.

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52 minutes ago, kimosavi said:

2 legs and a head is enough to get through our scouting criteria

 

Head yes but 2 legs not so much, kinda discriminates against 1 legged strikers tbh.

 

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Strikers at Hearts have a near impossible task. Our manager plays with no pace, no width, no creativity.

 

If we don't have incoming proven pacey wide players (not projects)... Just write next season off as well.

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1 hour ago, Gambo said:

Time to judge a striker is when they have had a few games with good service in the box.

 

Unfair to judge any of our strikers tbf.

Correct Gambo - we might have quite a wait to pass judgement based on that criteria

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13 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

He is young?

He has had one nice touch in 4 games?

Blind faith that he will come good?

 

We know who I am talking about.

 

I am now out of suggestions.

 

 

 

Points system from Wyscout seems to be how we sign players now but when I go to watch them play I want them to play attractive football and hopefully score goals.

 

The way we sign players may have changed and the system may be the way forward however I still think you have to look at the style of play the player is playing in before you sign them.

 

A player who may score highly in a foreign league may not necessarily do well here if we play a totally different style of play.

 

Ultimately a striker is judged on the number of goals and perhaps assists he provides.

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2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Where we are with strikers this season 

 

GOALS

Naismith 14

Uche 6

MacLean 6 

Clare 5 

Keena 1

Morrison 1

Lafferty 1

 

Strikers (I include Clare) 33 out of 62 goals (53%)

 

MINUTES PLAYED per GOALS SCORED

 

(This is based on stats that may not include last couple of games) 

 

Naismith - 164

Uche - 232

MacLean- 335

Clare - 371

Keena - 217

Morrison - 1888

Lafferty - 333

 

 

Assists

 

Naismith 4 

Uche 4

Morrison 3 

Mulraney 3

McDonald 3

MacLean 2

Clare 1

Wighton 1

Vanecek 1

Lafferty 1

 

(Olly Lee has 10)

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I judge my strikers first and foremost on goals scored.

 

Then by how many players he can knock out the way before finally falling down himself and moaning that he didn't get a free kick.

 

 

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Wighton will be a good player, he would be a great foil for Uche if he was ever given the chance.   We need a massive change of style if we want our strikers to start scoring bucket loads, almost all our goals come from set pieces or stramashes/ball dropping to a midfielders on edge of the box. 

 

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Pasquale for King
23 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

Points system from Wyscout seems to be how we sign players now but when I go to watch them play I want them to play attractive football and hopefully score goals.

 

The way we sign players may have changed and the system may be the way forward however I still think you have to look at the style of play the player is playing in before you sign them.

 

A player who may score highly in a foreign league may not necessarily do well here if we play a totally different style of play.

 

Ultimately a striker is judged on the number of goals and perhaps assists he provides.

Look at Vanacek for proof of that, totally unsuited to the way we play and Levein has now said we need another option when Uche is unavailable( his fan boys have said that’s impossible all season). He said that he had to bring expectations down where Vanacek was concerned, he’s not going to come here and score ten goals in the rest of the season (because we won’t create the chances)That is the exact OPPOSITE of the way a great  manager/coach deals with players.

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Pasquale for King
23 hours ago, Jambo92 said:

Wighton will be a good player, he would be a great foil for Uche if he was ever given the chance.   We need a massive change of style if we want our strikers to start scoring bucket loads, almost all our goals come from set pieces or stramashes/ball dropping to a midfielders on edge of the box. 

 

It’s funny how Levein slated Vanacek for not being physical enough to deal with the defenders in Scotland, but doesn’t where Wighton is concerned. The lad needs to toughen up, it’s been said he’s strong enough so he needs to let defenders know he there’s, as Maclean does for example.

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23 hours ago, Jambo92 said:

Wighton will be a good player, he would be a great foil for Uche if he was ever given the chance.   We need a massive change of style if we want our strikers to start scoring bucket loads, almost all our goals come from set pieces or stramashes/ball dropping to a midfielders on edge of the box. 

 

 

 

That will  cover my 'blind faith' part in my OP then.

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8 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

It’s funny how Levein slated Vanacek for not being physical enough to deal with the defenders in Scotland, but doesn’t where Wighton is concerned. The lad needs to toughen up, it’s been said he’s strong enough so he needs to let defenders know he there’s, as Maclean does for example.

 

They're different types of players, Vanecek is there to be big bulldozing target man similar to Uche (I think) where as Wighton and MacLean are more nippy, filling the space that a player like Uche creates from the mayhem he causes. But he has been stuck out wide, Wighton has a long way to go but he definitely has the potential to be a solid striker for this division, hopefully he gets the time to develop here.

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OmiyaHearts
3 minutes ago, Jambo92 said:

 

They're different types of players, Vanecek is there to be big bulldozing target man similar to Uche (I think) where as Wighton and MacLean are more nippy, filling the space that a player like Uche creates from the mayhem he causes. But he has been stuck out wide, Wighton has a long way to go but he definitely has the potential to be a solid striker for this division, hopefully he gets the time to develop here.

Wighton doesn't have the natural instinct to be an effective striker. He'll end up an ineffective wide player for a bottom-six Premiership team.

 

I imagine he'll be out on loan net season when the (hopefully) new manager separates the wheat from the chaff.

Edited by OmiyaHearts
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2 minutes ago, OmiyaHearts said:

Wighton doesn't have the natural instinct to be an effective striker. He'll end up an ineffective wide player for a bottom-six Premiership team.

 

I imagine he'll be out on loan net season when the (hopefully) new manager separates the wheat from the chaff.

 

His performances for the reserves where he has had a proper run out in the centre forward's position suggests he does have some sort of natural finishing ability in front of goal. I think he's had two starts up front for the first team, both away and one being at Ibrox, so I won't be judging him yet. 

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Pasquale for King
43 minutes ago, Jambo92 said:

 

They're different types of players, Vanecek is there to be big bulldozing target man similar to Uche (I think) where as Wighton and MacLean are more nippy, filling the space that a player like Uche creates from the mayhem he causes. But he has been stuck out wide, Wighton has a long way to go but he definitely has the potential to be a solid striker for this division, hopefully he gets the time to develop here.

Doesn’t matter if they’re different types, Vanacek has to learn how to fight with defenders as does Wighton. They’re was two occasions on Saturday where he could’ve dumped McKenna on the track and he didn’t, he would’ve done it to him. Did Robbo ever let huge CHs dominate him or not fight them physically, if you want to play in this league you need to be physical. Souttar said that Maclean was one of the hardest most physical players he played against, always knew he was there and left his mark on you.

Edited by Pasquale for King
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55 minutes ago, underwaterwoodwelder said:

Baw in the net... simple really.

 

assists if they come ..

 

 

Remind me what that is again?

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44 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Doesn’t matter if they’re different types, Vanacek has to learn how to fight with defenders as does Wighton. They’re was two occasions on Saturday where he could’ve dumped McKenna on the track and he didn’t, he would’ve done it to him. Did Robbo ever let huge CHs dominate him or not fight them physically, if you want to play in this league you need to be physical. Souttar said that Maclean was one of the hardest most physical players he played against, always knew he was there and left his mark on you.

 

I agree partly, however they clearly have different attributes and as a manager/fan I would want them to make best use of their qualities.  It's quite clear Wighton wouldn't get much change out of trying to play the Kevin Kyle role against Aberdeen's defence - my point is that to get Wighton scoring goals we would need to see a different type of play and formation.  Sure he needs to work on his strength and bring some aggression into his game but that will come with time and experience.  

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Pasquale for King
3 minutes ago, Jambo92 said:

 

I agree partly, however they clearly have different attributes and as a manager/fan I would want them to make best use of their qualities.  It's quite clear Wighton wouldn't get much change out of trying to play the Kevin Kyle role against Aberdeen's defence - my point is that to get Wighton scoring goals we would need to see a different type of play and formation.  Sure he needs to work on his strength and bring some aggression into his game but that will come with time and experience.  

Yeah pretty much. He’s been training and playing with Naismith/Uche/Maclean and doesn’t seem to have picked it up yet though. You then have to wonder why we rushed in to buy him when nobody else was credited with an interest. 

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Pasquale for King
34 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Remind me what that is again?

It’s what you see when you watch football on the telly I think.

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38 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Remind me what that is again?

 

3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

It’s what you see when you watch football on the telly I think.

 

It usually means we are 1 down when i see this.

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6 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Yeah pretty much. He’s been training and playing with Naismith/Uche/Maclean and doesn’t seem to have picked it up yet though. You then have to wonder why we rushed in to buy him when nobody else was credited with an interest. 

 

It was a bit of strange signing especially with a similar player in Keena waiting in the wings.  He could have stayed at Dundee and been relegated and picked up on a cheap or he might have stayed and scored a bucket load, led them to safety and we would all be sat here saying we should be looking to sign him this summer.  That's the beauty of football I guess!

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Pasquale for King
3 minutes ago, Jambo92 said:

 

It was a bit of strange signing especially with a similar player in Keena waiting in the wings.  He could have stayed at Dundee and been relegated and picked up on a cheap or he might have stayed and scored a bucket load, led them to safety and we would all be sat here saying we should be looking to sign him this summer.  That's the beauty of football I guess!

We might’ve been better off loaning him back to them but who knows.

We have had some guys score winners against Hibs that weren’t legends by any means, he could well be added to that list on Saturday.

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2 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Look at Vanacek for proof of that, totally unsuited to the way we play and Levein has now said we need another option when Uche is unavailable( his fan boys have said that’s impossible all season). He said that he had to bring expectations down where Vanacek was concerned, he’s not going to come here and score ten goals in the rest of the season (because we won’t create the chances)That is the exact OPPOSITE of the way a great  manager/coach deals with players.

 

So another waste of money yet again. At least he is only on an 18 month contract unlike some of the other duds that have been signed on much longer deals.

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Pasquale for King
1 hour ago, wavydavy said:

 

So another waste of money yet again. At least he is only on an 18 month contract unlike some of the other duds that have been signed on much longer deals.

Yes probably. I actually feel sorry for him and any other striker, we create extremely few chances which will

continue as the way he’s talking CL has no plans to go to Spain and retire on health grounds.

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18 minutes ago, saxondale said:

A bit of patience and rationale would be a good start.

 

How long do you suggest.?

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1 hour ago, wavydavy said:

 

How long do you suggest.?

 

There is no set amount. There are other variables to consider that could affect how a player performs  eg just come back from long term injury, the player may need to adjust to new country/language, we may not be playing to suit the player’s style of play etc etc.

 

Its a bit more sensible to consider these things first before making your mind up on a player just because they are not performing right away. Just look at Naismith and Clare. Both players either hadn’t had much game time or had come back from a long term injury.  Therefore both started slowly initially, but now they are performing.

 

Its not too much to ask imo.

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On 04/04/2019 at 00:37, i8hibsh said:

 

 

32 games in and Levein is still 'trying' stuff. Speaks volumes.

 

"Trying stuff" when we don't have any of our top three strikers available or fit. Seems reasonable enough to me!

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1 hour ago, saxondale said:

 

There is no set amount. There are other variables to consider that could affect how a player performs  eg just come back from long term injury, the player may need to adjust to new country/language, we may not be playing to suit the player’s style of play etc etc.

 

Its a bit more sensible to consider these things first before making your mind up on a player just because they are not performing right away. Just look at Naismith and Clare. Both players either hadn’t had much game time or had come back from a long term injury.  Therefore both started slowly initially, but now they are performing.

 

Its not too much to ask imo.

 

Really, you think Clare is performing. Apart from chipping in with the odd goal he has done nothing much in my opinion.

 

Naismith was not the same player after his first injury and had never really got back to his early season form and of course is still out.

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2 hours ago, saxondale said:

 

There is no set amount. There are other variables to consider that could affect how a player performs  eg just come back from long term injury, the player may need to adjust to new country/language, we may not be playing to suit the player’s style of play etc etc.

 

Its a bit more sensible to consider these things first before making your mind up on a player just because they are not performing right away. Just look at Naismith and Clare. Both players either hadn’t had much game time or had come back from a long term injury.  Therefore both started slowly initially, but now they are performing.

 

Its not too much to ask imo.

Clare is performing? Really? Guess each to their own but for me 99% of the games just pass him by. 

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rick witter
On 04/04/2019 at 00:37, i8hibsh said:

 

 

32 games in and Levein is still 'trying' stuff. Speaks volumes.

I still couldn’t pick a first team after 32 matches of the season. I’m convinced Levein picks the team then pulls 7 names out a hat for the bench. 

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2 hours ago, Hall said:

Clare is performing? Really? Guess each to their own but for me 99% of the games just pass him by. 

 

He can do better, for sure, but he is clearly a good player playing in what is a bad team, at the moment.

 

Do you have an opinion on the actual point I was trying to make?

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4 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

Really, you think Clare is performing. Apart from chipping in with the odd goal he has done nothing much in my opinion.

 

Naismith was not the same player after his first injury and had never really got back to his early season form and of course is still out.

 

Its not really my point though is it? If you disagree with the two examples of players I gave then fine, we will have to agree to disagree. 

 

What are your thoughts on the actual point I was trying to make though?

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  • 2 months later...
On 03/04/2019 at 23:49, i8hibsh said:

He is young?

He has had one nice touch in 4 games?

Blind faith that he will come good?

 

We know who I am talking about.

 

I am now out of suggestions.

 

 

Goals, effort and link up play 

 

Speed as a bonus 

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Personally I dont care if he's a hard drinking, smoking, womanising arsehole who is lazy at training and doesnt try a leg on the pitch IF he can score 20 or more goals a season!

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Jambo 4 Ever
2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Personally I dont care if he's a hard drinking, smoking, womanising arsehole who is lazy at training and doesnt try a leg on the pitch IF he can score 20 or more goals a season!

Who are you thinking of?

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7 minutes ago, Natural Orders said:

Who are you thinking of?

Nobody really. Just answering the OP.

 

Ball in the back of the onion bag is how I judge a "striker". Players like Uche are hard working, really good team players and he's great at holding up the ball, dragging opposition round him which creates space (or should do) for our players and chips in with some good efforts and goals but IMO, he's not a PURE striker.

Robbo

McCoist

Boyd

On their day were pure strikers, poachers, opportunists, but not known for hard work off the ball.

Edited by Pans Jambo
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Jambo 4 Ever
5 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Imagine bringing back a thread that is obviously a troll by the OP in the first instance.

to be fair, no one is forcing you to read it or asking you to respond

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3 minutes ago, Natural Orders said:

to be fair, no one is forcing you to read it or asking you to respond

You are on ignore. Please never interact with me again. Understood!!

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