Cletus Nombil - work permit application rejected (title updated)

[Mr Elwood P]

15 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

So really the rules are only Celtic and rangers can sign people who don't qualify via the normal rules as no one else is paying those kind of fees. 

 

No.

[Absolute Scenes]

its all LUHVEHNS FAULTTTTTT

[Peebo]

1 hour ago, Newton51 said:

Work permit refused so that’s another player not signing

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/latest-hearts-news/cletus-nombil-hearts-deal-is-dead-after-work-permit-appeal-rejected-1-4972516

That’s a huge surprise...

[fabienleclerq]

21 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

No.

So what's his price tag got to do with it? 

 

 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

If I was on the panel, taking all emotion out of it, I would have said no.

 

Exceptional talent, would be in our first team, if we have said he is joining our youth squad, essentially that is denying a young Scottish player a work opportunity.

 

No idea what the process involves by falsifying information, straight into the first team should have been the angle, if it wasn't, but we have no way of knowing what the application was based on, other than conjecture

[Mr Elwood P]

11 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

So what's his price tag got to do with it? 

 

 

 

It is clearly easier to argue a player is an exceptional talent if you are paying £3m for him, rather than signing him on a free transfer. Kouassi had also played for Krasnodar, who are now regulars in European competition. If we were paying any kind of fee or signing Cletus from a club then it would be easier to argue that he meets the threshold.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Mr Elwood P

[MTS1874]

1 hour ago, Newton51 said:

Work permit refused so that’s another player not signing

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/latest-hearts-news/cletus-nombil-hearts-deal-is-dead-after-work-permit-appeal-rejected-1-4972516

 

Seems a strange decision by the club to apply for a work permit as it was never going to happen.

Hope the guy will prove that he’s an exceptional talent and have a good career.

[Peebo]

Going to be interesting from the next transfer window forward, as these panels will have possibly have to assess all non-UK nationals. I can’t imagine visas for EU sportsmen will be top of Boris’ list to sort out! 

[fabienleclerq]

10 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

It is clearly easier to argue a player is an exceptional talent if you are paying £3m for him, rather than signing him on a free transfer. Kouassi had also played for Krasnodar, who are now regulars in European competition. If we were paying any kind of fee or signing Cletus from a club then it would be easier to argue that he meets the threshold.

 

I'm not sure I agree, they paid £4/5m for scheidt! The boy played a handful of games for Krasnodar. 

 

I can't remember if they paid a fee for Koki mizuno but he wasn't capped iirc and they bullshitted their way to a permit in what is a better Comparison here. 

 

Hard not to see favouritism fir Celtic here. 

[Hearts1975]

13 minutes ago, MTS1874 said:

 

Seems a strange decision by the club to apply for a work permit as it was never going to happen.

Hope the guy will prove that he’s an exceptional talent and have a good career.

Seemingly it was close, you need a majority to accept the appeal 

 

panel of 4 

 

2 accepted the argument of an “exceptional talent”. 2 didn’t 

 

stalemate was the reason it wasn’t accepted but it was very close. Doesn’t sound like the most robust of systems

[MTS1874]

Just now, Hearts1975 said:

Seemingly it was close, you need a majority to accept the appeal 

 

panel of 4 

 

2 accepted the argument of an “exceptional talent”. 2 didn’t 

 

stalemate was the reason it wasn’t accepted but it was very close. Doesn’t sound like the most robust of systems

 

Thanks, I didn’t know that.

[Hearts1975]

1 minute ago, MTS1874 said:

 

Thanks, I didn’t know that.

All good 👍 

frustrating thing is if 2 “so called experts” who assessed our appeal think he is good enough, and then 2 “so called experts don’t” who is actually right and who is wrong 🤷‍♂️

It’s annoying as well as frustrating if that’s the case 

[HighTimes]

10 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

I'm not sure I agree, they paid £4/5m for scheidt! The boy played a handful of games for Krasnodar. 

 

I can't remember if they paid a fee for Koki mizuno but he wasn't capped iirc and they bullshitted their way to a permit in what is a better Comparison here. 

 

Hard not to see favouritism fir Celtic here. 

 

The GFA are very pro-Old Firm, obviously, but that's just paranoia.  This guy was a youth player for our reserves, signed on a free transfer, after being rejected for a work permit in other countries. 

The fact it was as close as 2-2 from the panel is the astonishing thing.  It should really have been 4-0 against, on paper.

[Peebo]

13 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

I'm not sure I agree, they paid £4/5m for scheidt! The boy played a handful of games for Krasnodar. 

 

I can't remember if they paid a fee for Koki mizuno but he wasn't capped iirc and they bullshitted their way to a permit in what is a better Comparison here. 

 

Hard not to see favouritism fir Celtic here. 

I vaguely recall the Mizuno approval was received around similar time we had application for Gogua (? Georgian guy?) rejected. 

 

Paying significant fee would definitely back up any application but it does seem that one of the OF applying in itself does seem to typically be a reason to grant. 

[Nookie Bear]

4 months wasted on this. 

 

Could easily have identified a similar similar talent from the UK, especially after players were released at the end of the season. 

[BelgeJambo]

Don't clubs usually appeal and get it through on that or is it dead in the water?

[corryjambo]

6 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

4 months wasted on this. 

 

Could easily have identified a similar similar talent from the UK, especially after players were released at the end of the season. 

 

Yes, of course they were all sitting about doing nothing and not looking at other players for four months whilst the appeal was being considered.

 

I understand there is frustration around the club just now but there is absolutely no need to criticise everything that the club attempts to do.

 

I can just imagine the outrage if we had not attempted to get a work permit and he had gone on to have a stellar career.

[ToadKiller Dog]

Swedish club AIK looked at getting him Sparta Prague took him on loan with a view to buy but Visa issues stopped that .

I would say it's not his lack of talent that's stopping him get a move but his nationality and that doesn't sit right with me .

[Hearts1975]

12 minutes ago, BelgeJambo said:

Don't clubs usually appeal and get it through on that or is it dead in the water?

Not sure on the appeal piece 🤔

I thought this was the actual application being assessed and not the appeal. Maybe someone else will know the ins and outs 

the club have indicated its now dead in the water, as far as I know 

[wavydavy]

28 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

4 months wasted on this. 

 

Could easily have identified a similar similar talent from the UK, especially after players were released at the end of the season. 

 

CL doesn't do the easy options.

[wavydavy]

24 minutes ago, BelgeJambo said:

Don't clubs usually appeal and get it through on that or is it dead in the water?

 

Extract from the article.

 

Tynecastle officials had submitted an appeal through the Scottish Football Association as Nombil, who had been on loan at Sparta Prague in 2018, did not qualify automatically for a visa to work in this country.

[Hearts1975]

24 minutes ago, BelgeJambo said:

Don't clubs usually appeal and get it through on that or is it dead in the water?

Just checked, I think it’s a points system but there is an “exceptional talent” appeal option so that would mean the decision would be final if the club appealed on this criteria. Assuming he didn’t have enough points 

 

at least, that’s how I read it 

[qferryjam]

50 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

Seemingly it was close, you need a majority to accept the appeal 

 

panel of 4 

 

2 accepted the argument of an “exceptional talent”. 2 didn’t 

 

stalemate was the reason it wasn’t accepted but it was very close. Doesn’t sound like the most robust of systems

Is the panel made up of football people SFA or is it government? 

[wavydavy]

3 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

Just checked, I think it’s a points system but there is an “exceptional talent” appeal option so that would mean the decision would be final if the club appealed on this criteria. Assuming he didn’t have enough points 

 

at least, that’s how I read it 

 

It was the exceptional talent basis that Hearts used and lost on although the vote was 2 - 2 apparently.

[qferryjam]

Just now, qferryjam said:

Is the panel made up of football people SFA or is it government? 

 

53 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

Seemingly it was close, you need a majority to accept the appeal 

 

panel of 4 

 

2 accepted the argument of an “exceptional talent”. 2 didn’t 

 

stalemate was the reason it wasn’t accepted but it was very close. Doesn’t sound like the most robust of systems

Ignore that just saw it was an appeal 

[Hearts1975]

1 minute ago, qferryjam said:

Is the panel made up of football people SFA or is it government? 

Not sure mate, sorry

 

1 minute ago, wavydavy said:

 

It was the exceptional talent basis that Hearts used and lost on although the vote was 2 - 2 apparently.

Knew it ended 2-2 but needed a majority vote unfortunately for us 

[wavydavy]

4 minutes ago, qferryjam said:

Is the panel made up of football people SFA or is it government? 

 

A four-man independent appeals panel voted 2-2 on whether to grant Nombil a working visa. Since a majority vote in favour is required for any application to proceed, he remains unable to register with Hearts and play in Britain.

 

Not sure what that means exactly.

[qferryjam]

1 minute ago, wavydavy said:

 

A four-man independent appeals panel voted 2-2 on whether to grant Nombil a working visa. Since a majority vote in favour is required for any application to proceed, he remains unable to register with Hearts and play in Britain.

 

Not sure what that means exactly.

Suppose it’s one you need to take on the chin , no doubt they’d have all relevant info , we just expect Glasgow bias 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

4 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

A four-man independent appeals panel voted 2-2 on whether to grant Nombil a working visa. Since a majority vote in favour is required for any application to proceed, he remains unable to register with Hearts and play in Britain.

 

Not sure what that means exactly.

A four person panel it should have been. 

 

Disgraceful,  not politically correct to make the call

[corryjambo]

2 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

A four-man independent appeals panel voted 2-2 on whether to grant Nombil a working visa. Since a majority vote in favour is required for any application to proceed, he remains unable to register with Hearts and play in Britain.

 

Not sure what that means exactly.

 

Usually if an majority vote is required a panel would consist of an odd number of people or the Chairperson would have a casting vote.

 

If the panel consists of 4 people then it is not a simple majority that is needed but a 75% vote in favour.

 

Working on that basis I assume it is an SFA panel because that appears to be the kind of panel they would set up in their usual incompetent manner.

[wavydavy]

3 minutes ago, corryjambo said:

 

Usually if an majority vote is required a panel would consist of an odd number of people or the Chairperson would have a casting vote.

 

If the panel consists of 4 people then it is not a simple majority that is needed but a 75% vote in favour.

 

Working on that basis I assume it is an SFA panel because that appears to be the kind of panel they would set up in their usual incompetent manner.

 

Wonder what the outcome would have been had he been trying to join Celtic?

[McCrae]

Unless he is exceptional I would prefer we gave the chance to play for Hearts to a home grown youngster.  

 

Sounds like it it wasn’t clear that he was exceptional and in my book the right call was made.

Edited July 29, 2019 by McCrae

[Nookie Bear]

47 minutes ago, corryjambo said:

 

Yes, of course they were all sitting about doing nothing and not looking at other players for four months whilst the appeal was being considered.

 

I understand there is frustration around the club just now but there is absolutely no need to criticise everything that the club attempts to do.

 

I can just imagine the outrage if we had not attempted to get a work permit and he had gone on to have a stellar career.

 

Doesn't matter, I can understand it if the player had a pedigree, but this was another 'project' at best.

 

 

[Finlay James]

10 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Doesn't matter, I can understand it if the player had a pedigree, but this was another 'project' at best.

 

 

 

Every signing that every club makes is a project, some work and some don't.  It happens at either end of the market, you only need to look at some of the huge flops down south who have been transferred for millions but done very little.

 

Personally, I'm glad the club look for these rough diamonds.  

[corryjambo]

5 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Doesn't matter, I can understand it if the player had a pedigree, but this was another 'project' at best.

 

 

 

"Project" another cliche thrown about just now when moaning about the club.

 

Do I think we should be doing better at the moment? Yes I do, and I think a change of management is probably needed simply to change the atmosphere around the club and to give us all a fresh impetus.

 

But, I really don't think we should be moaning about the potential signing of one player who does't meet the criteria judged by some unknown panel.

[davemclaren]

Did this not happen previously with Jason Scotland and Dundee Utd(?) but Hamilton applied later and got a permit? Seems a tad random. 

[rudi must stay]

No suprise given we haven't heard a peep for weeks

[Martin_T]

7 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Did this not happen previously with Jason Scotland and Dundee Utd(?) but Hamilton applied later and got a permit? Seems a tad random. 

 

I think Dundee United tried to renew his contract but couldn't get a new permit, so St Johnstone signed him. It may be on the premise of guaranteeing how often they will play.

 

It was not long after the Scottish Cup Semi FInal where Scotland had scored twice against Hibs, and the panel to decide was made up entirely of people connected to Hibs IIRC, so there was a suspicion of pettiness. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Martin_T

[Bauld]

I think it's a bit unfair on the lad.

 

 

Probably an honest hard working young guy just trying to get as far as he can in the game.

[Papa]

Have we ever had a successful appeal to this so-called unbiased panel? Cant remember one. Seem to remember that it was once made up of ex  Old Firm players. 

[BelgeJambo]

23 minutes ago, Papa said:

Have we ever had a successful appeal to this so-called unbiased panel? Cant remember one. Seem to remember that it was once made up of ex  Old Firm players. 

Wasn't Jamie Walker's signing subject to clearance?  I thought I read that somewhere.

 

They make this shit up as they go along I am sure.  

[Martin_T]

11 minutes ago, BelgeJambo said:

Wasn't Jamie Walker's signing subject to clearance?  I thought I read that somewhere.

 

They make this shit up as they go along I am sure.  

 

Brexit hasn't quite resulted in Scottish people requiring a work permit to return to Scotland.....yet.

[John Findlay]

In Scotland the question to be asked should be. How independent is an independent panel?

[Seymour M Hersh]

7 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

Brexit hasn't quite resulted in Scottish people requiring a work permit to return to Scotland.....yet.

 

Walker did have to get international clearance. It's a football thing though not a visa or work permit thing. I think everyone's now subject to it. Whatever "it" actually is. 

[corryjambo]

3 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

In Scotland the question to be asked should be. How independent is an independent panel?

 

To quote a certain Mr McCoist....."Who are these people".

[Martin_T]

13 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Walker did have to get international clearance. It's a football thing though not a visa or work permit thing. I think everyone's now subject to it. Whatever "it" actually is. 

 

I think it's essentially just the transfer of the players registration between FA's. I don't think it requires approval from a committee as work permit applications do.

[Hungry hippo]

2-2. At least we got a couple of goals.

[80bob]

2 minutes ago, Hungry hippo said:

2-2. At least we got a couple of goals.

Lost on penalties mind you

[milky_26]

1 hour ago, Martin_T said:

 

I think Dundee United tried to renew his contract but couldn't get a new permit, so St Johnstone signed him. It may be on the premise of guaranteeing how often they will play.

 

It was not long after the Scottish Cup Semi FInal where Scotland had scored twice against Hibs, and the panel to decide was made up entirely of people connected to Hibs IIRC, so there was a suspicion of pettiness. 

St Johnstone got the work permit for him as they were in the second tier so the criteria would have been less than a signing for a top flight club

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

St Johnstone got the work permit for him as they were in the second tier so the criteria would have been less than a signing for a top flight club

Ah, that sounds right.