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Would you Vote ❎ differently now in the European Union Referendum


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Would you Vote ❎ differently in the EU Referendum now   

295 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you Vote ❎ differently now

    • Yes
      25
    • No
      262
    • Maybe yes maybe no
      7
  2. 2. Vote the same or differently

    • Was Remain still remain
      207
    • Was Leave still leave
      54
    • Was Remain now Leave
      13
    • Was Leave now Remain
      12
    • Couldn't care less
      8
  3. 3. Should Brexit go ahead now

    • Yes
      106
    • No
      188
  4. 4. Should there be another People's Vote

    • Yes
      177
    • No
      97
    • St Johnstone
      20

This poll is closed to new votes

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  • Poll closed on 29/03/19 at 11:00

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7 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Parliament hasn't agreed on any options! And don't the other 27 EU members who have already agreed a deal with the UK have some say in "the final decision"?

 

If they don't agree on any proposals then the options would be 'no deal', 'May's deal' or 'remain'.

 

The other 27 EU members will of course have no say in the final decision, their say will come before that when agreeing to any proposed deals. There should be 3 or 4 options on the table, all ready to go after the second referendum. 

 

- Deal A (whatever that may end up being, might be that the EU don't agree to another option?)

- Deal B (May's deal)

- No Deal

- Remain

 

If the consensus is achieved in parliament next week but the EU refuse to entertain one of the new options then Deal A would be removed and we would be ready to go to the people asap.

Edited by Taffin
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3 minutes ago, Cade said:

The deal with the UK, once ratified by the UK parliament then has to go to the EU parliament for ratification.

 

Only if it is another deal.

 

No deal obviously doesn't need ratification, and May's deal has already been ratified.

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Nookie Bear
2 hours ago, Taffin said:

Having another remain/leave referendum would not sit well with me me as the people have already spoken.

 

However, there should be a referendum that sees the options parliament agree on put back to the electorate to make a final decision. That should include remain.

 

 

Would that not split the Leave vote amongst more than one options, leaving Remain as the clear winner, but with a minority of the vote?

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13 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Would that not split the Leave vote amongst more than one options, leaving Remain as the clear winner, but with a minority of the vote?

 

 

Yes it would split it but not necessarily leaving Remain the clear winner. I know a lot of people who wanted to leave but didn't vote leave as it was too open an option and could result in what we have ended up with (a mess with no deal still on the table). Better the devil you know type of thing.

 

I imagine Remain would still edge it but a number of previous remain voters would also go for a soft Brexit option imo.

 

Not that it would be an issue with it being split. The reality is the options aren't binary and the vote options should reflect that as such.

 

Edited by Taffin
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Francis Albert
2 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Would that not split the Leave vote amongst more than one options, leaving Remain as the clear winner, but with a minority of the vote?

Think you may have spotted the latest Remain strategy!

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15 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

We can't have a referendum with two leave options and one remain.  That would be ridiculous 

Ok we'll put Remain down twice

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Francis Albert
2 hours ago, Cade said:

The deal with the UK, once ratified by the UK parliament then has to go to the EU parliament for ratification.

There first has to be deal with the UK, not just something dreamt up by so far a minority of the Commons.

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I went to Cyprus and could not get a vote,I tried.I would like a referendum a real one not one set up by the NAZI Tory party.I live in England and it is time they were destroyed.

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No deal no jobs.You cannot export into E U without a deal.Standards.We will be a third country no jobs no money no N H S a Tory dream

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6 hours ago, Longshanks said:

We can't have a referendum with two leave options and one remain.  That would be ridiculous 

 

Why?

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19 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Why?

 

A referendum is only fair if it offers a binary choice or the vote is rigged to split the votes into two or more related options.

 

There are some right daftie Remainers that think people are stupid enough to fall for a new referendum rigged to their preference.

 

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1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

A referendum is only fair if it offers a binary choice or the vote is rigged to split the votes into two or more related options.

 

There are some right daftie Remainers that think people are stupid enough to fall for a new referendum rigged to their preference.

 

 

 

So better to make people vote for what they don't want?

 

Then it would need to be no deal or remain as a deal seems a non starter

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Just now, Taffin said:

 

 

So better to make people vote for what they don't want?

 

Then it would need to be no deal or remain as a deal seems a non starter

 

Or no referendum in the first place until Parliament get their fingers out and carry out the mandate given to them by the people.

 

There won't be a "People's Vote".  Its the last truly desperate act of a sore loser.

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2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Or no referendum in the first place until Parliament get their fingers out and carry out the mandate given to them by the people.

 

There won't be a "People's Vote".  Its the last truly desperate act of a sore loser.

 

 

What if we wrote it on a bus? You'd want it then right?

 

If there's to be no vote then it would be nice if your lot could hurry up deliver what you all demanded.

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Just now, Taffin said:

 

 

What if we wrote it on a bus? You'd want it then right?

 

Your lot spend millions on sending pamphlets to every household in the country.

 

Just now, Taffin said:

If there's to be no vote then it would be nice if your lot could hurry up deliver what you all demanded.

 

No arguments there.  I don't think the politicians of all parties have any intentions of doing that - they are a bunch of two faced lying hypocrites.

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15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

A referendum is only fair if it offers a binary choice or the vote is rigged to split the votes into two or more related options.

 

 

Not at all. It could be a multiple vote referendum similar to the indicative votes held yesterday in Parliament. Are you for or against scenario A? Are you for or against scenario B? etc.

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4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Your lot spend millions on sending pamphlets to every household in the country.

 

 

No arguments there.  I don't think the politicians of all parties have any intentions of doing that - they are a bunch of two faced lying hypocrites.

 

Probably because people asked then to deliver something inane.

 

Nothing wrong with leafleting but your right it's expensive it's better to just lie on a bus and suck in the gullible.

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1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

Not at all. It could be a multiple vote referendum similar to the indicative votes held yesterday in Parliament. Are you for or against scenario A? Are you for or against scenario B? etc.

 

That is too much of a fudge to put to the electorate.  Referendums should be kept simple - a binary decision like a) Do you accept TM's deal or b) Want the government to come back with a better deal.

 

There is absolutely no place for a remain vote as the decision has already been taken to leave.

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2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Probably because people asked then to deliver something inane.

 

Nothing wrong with leafleting but your right it's expensive it's better to just lie on a bus and suck in the gullible.

 

The only one that is gullible is you rolling off the same old clichés and stereotypes about the stupid racist leave voters.

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Just now, frankblack said:

 

That is too much of a fudge to put to the electorate.  Referendums should be kept simple - a binary decision like a) Do you accept TM's deal or b) Want the government to come back with a better deal.

 

There is absolutely no place for a remain vote as the decision has already been taken to leave.

 

Fudge? Don't you trust the electorate that returned your leave vote to be able to make sensible decisions?

 

The latter of your sentences is the true reason for your dislike of a further referendum. You're happy with the original decision. Don't disguise it with statements like "Referendums should be kept simple". You don't give a crap how referendums are run - you just want out and you want out now. Come on, admit it. ;)

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9 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The only one that is gullible is you rolling off the same old clichés and stereotypes about the stupid racist leave voters.

 

 

I didn't say anything about anyone being racist.

 

Leave voters are stupid. I won't shy away from saying that. I mean, look what you've delivered, total chaos. How are we better off now than we were? I was born a European citizen and now thanks to a bunch of middle aged simpletons I've had that taken away from. Now I get to Sabre rattle about the return of old Blighty and the glory days. Excellent.

 

Edit. Apologies for me being denigrative. There's nothing to be gained from it or going over old arguments. I'm just getting frustrated by the whole thing now. Sorry. Have a good evening

Edited by Taffin
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2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Fudge? Don't you trust the electorate that returned your leave vote to be able to make sensible decisions?

 

The latter of your sentences is the true reason for your dislike of a further referendum. You're happy with the original decision. Don't disguise it with statements like "Referendums should be kept simple". You don't give a crap how referendums are run - you just want out and you want out now. Come on, admit it. ;)

 

All I have heard from the bitter remoaners is schemes and petitions to try and undermine a democratic decision by the people.  As for trying to make the public vote on a ballot paper representing a pariamentary bill that is ridiculous.

 

The decision was taken to leave and that hasn't been implemented due to politicians obstructing the implementation.  Once that has been implemented then people can democratically vote on the way forward.

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7 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

 

I didn't say anything about anyone being racist.

 

Leave voters are stupid. I won't shy away from saying that. I mean, look what you've delivered, total chaos. How are we better off now than we were? I was born a European citizen and now thanks to a bunch of middle aged simpletons I've had that taken away from. Now I get to Sabre rattle about the return of old Blighty and the glory days. Excellent.

 

I think you just proved my point. ?

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1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

All I have heard from the bitter remoaners is schemes and petitions to try and undermine a democratic decision by the people.  As for trying to make the public vote on a ballot paper representing a pariamentary bill that is ridiculous.

 

The decision was taken to leave and that hasn't been implemented due to politicians obstructing the implementation.  Once that has been implemented then people can democratically vote on the way forward.

 

There are several "ways forwards" though. We should be given a choice as to which one we want. Hence the importance of a referendum that lays out various post-Brexit relationships with the EU.

 

Your use of the term "bitter remoaners" doesn't become you, or in fact decent debate of the subject. It makes you sound bitter instead to be honest.

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4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

There are several "ways forwards" though. We should be given a choice as to which one we want. Hence the importance of a referendum that lays out various post-Brexit relationships with the EU.

 

Isn't that what we are supposed to negotiate when this part of the deal is concluded?  We would be in a transition period to get this done.

 

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Your use of the term "bitter remoaners" doesn't become you, or in fact decent debate of the subject. It makes you sound bitter instead to be honest.

 

It is one way to describe people who constantly refer to leave voters as stupid, racist, and misinformed.  Plenty of examples on this thread.

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Just now, frankblack said:

 

Isn't that what we are supposed to negotiate when this part of the deal is concluded?  We would be in a transition period to get this done.

 

It is one way to describe people who constantly refer to leave voters as stupid, racist, and misinformed.  Plenty of examples on this thread.

 

Yes, probably, but I personally would like to see the people given a say.

 

You're not going to like this but racism played a part in the decision of some to vote Leave. I've heard so many people who voted Leave say "I'm not racist but..." and then lay into Poles, other Eastern Europeans, Syrian and Afghani refugees, etc. and accuse them of causing society's ills. Leave voters were almost certainly misinformed too, as the bus message and various pronouncements as to the post-Brexit ease of making trade deals showed. Finally, there was a direct correlation between level of education and the vote to Remain (see https://www.theweek.co.uk/89378/fact-check-did-uk-s-better-educated-vote-remain for example). There are many reasons for wanting to pursue further education, but intelligence does correlate with the level of education attained.

 

So, generally-speaking, Leavers were definitely misinformed, many of them in my experience were motivated by racist opinions, and they tended to be less well educated.

 

I don't think it's clever to concentrate on these issues though. We all had equal votes and now we're left to face the choice of the majority.

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11 hours ago, Taffin said:

Having another remain/leave referendum would not sit well with me me as the people have already spoken.

 

However, there should be a referendum that sees the options parliament agree on put back to the electorate to make a final decision. That should include remain.

 

 

How does May getting 3 attempts at getting her Brexit deal through parliament sit with you? The MPs have already spoken.

 

 

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Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

How does May getting 3 attempts at getting her Brexit deal through parliament sit with you? The MPs have already spoken.

 

 

 

As long as something has changed in it or the situation changes I'm okay with it. I think what happened yesterday makes me feel okay with seeing it back one more time. Another defeat and it should be off the table

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Just now, Taffin said:

 

As long as something has changed in it or the situation changes I'm okay with it.

 

Surely the goverment being incapable of getting anything resembling a decent Brexit deal constitutes enough of a situation change to merit the public also getting another vote then?

 

It's hardly having a spare £350 million a week to throw at the NHS, is it?

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14 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Surely the goverment being incapable of getting anything resembling a decent Brexit deal constitutes enough of a situation change to merit the public also getting another vote then?

 

It's hardly having a spare £350 million a week to throw at the NHS, is it?

 

 

Yes. Which is why I've been arguing for it on this thread today. I just don't think it should be a re-run of the original.

 

It should include a deliverable option for leave rather than just 'leave'. For example 'no deal', 'May's deal' 'Norway+' etc versus remain.

 

Still wouldn't sit well with me, as I get why people would be annoyed but I think it is now the best option.

Edited by Taffin
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10 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Surely the goverment being incapable of getting anything resembling a decent Brexit deal constitutes enough of a situation change to merit the public also getting another vote then?

 

No, it does give a case to delay Brexit for up to two years and put someone competent in to negotiate a workable deal who isn't afraid to stand up to the EU and hold firm to red lines.

 

10 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

It's hardly having a spare £350 million a week to throw at the NHS, is it?

 

It always comes back to this or racist leave voters doesn't it?  All politicians are liars who say what you want to hear and do whatever they want when they have power.

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15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

It always comes back to this or racist leave voters doesn't it?  All politicians are liars who say what you want to hear and do whatever they want when they have power.

 

So you admit that the Leave campaign lied, yet people have to respect the result, based on a deceitful campaign?

 

What if those who swallowed that and voted leave want to change their mind based on the exposure of these fantasies?

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Jambo-Jimbo
11 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

 

It always comes back to this or racist leave voters doesn't it?  All politicians are liars who say what you want to hear and do whatever they want when they have power.

 

Yip, like the dire warning of an 'Emergency Budget' having to take place if the country voted to leave.

Just one of many lies spewed out by the 'Remain' side and just one of many lies spewed out by both sides.

 

 

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Jambo-Jimbo
3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

So you admit that the Leave campaign lied, yet people have to respect the result, based on a deceitful campaign?

 

What if those who swallowed that and voted leave want to change their mind based on the exposure of these fantasies?

 

Has there ever been a political campaign when there hasn't been lies told by either side and usually both or all.

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Just now, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Has there ever been a political campaign when there hasn't been lies told by either side and usually both or all.

 

Probably not!  Although some lies are bigger than others, whereas some are more likely half-truths.

 

Had there been no campaign, would the result have then turned out the same?

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Jambo-Jimbo
Just now, Boris said:

 

Probably not!  Although some lies are bigger than others, whereas some are more likely half-truths.

 

Had there been no campaign, would the result have then turned out the same?

 

That's a question not one of us could ever answer.

 

Some lies are bigger than others this is true, whilst some lies resonate more with different people differently, I guess it all depends on the individual person and what their beliefs are and how easy it is for them to fall for the piss politicians typically spout.

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Adam Murray
8 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Yip, like the dire warning of an 'Emergency Budget' having to take place if the country voted to leave.

Just one of many lies spewed out by the 'Remain' side and just one of many lies spewed out by both sides.

 

 

 

Also the job losses, plus recession, predicted by the Government (remain campaigners) themselves, no less

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-to-enter-recession-with-500000-uk-jobs-lost-if-it-left-eu-new-treasury-analysis-shows

 

Yet here we are

 

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/news/93801/unemployment-record-low-despite-treasurys-pre-referendum-warning-500000

 

Then we had this from Mark Carney, not that we could slip into recession if we left the EU, but that we could slide into recession in the aftermath of the vote

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/12/bank-of-england-keeps-interest-rates-on-hold-as-brexit-fears-bite

 

Although he at least had the cahony's to admit he got it wrong

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/mark-carney-eats-humble-pie-on-brexit/

 

 

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Jambo-Jimbo
19 minutes ago, Adam Murray said:

 

Also the job losses, plus recession, predicted by the Government (remain campaigners) themselves, no less

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-to-enter-recession-with-500000-uk-jobs-lost-if-it-left-eu-new-treasury-analysis-shows

 

Yet here we are

 

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/news/93801/unemployment-record-low-despite-treasurys-pre-referendum-warning-500000

 

Then we had this from Mark Carney, not that we could slip into recession if we left the EU, but that we could slide into recession in the aftermath of the vote

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/12/bank-of-england-keeps-interest-rates-on-hold-as-brexit-fears-bite

 

Although he at least had the cahony's to admit he got it wrong

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/mark-carney-eats-humble-pie-on-brexit/

 

 

 

Yeh, as usual both sides were at it, but all we ever hear is '£350m on the side of a bus' & 'leave voters were too thick, too stupid and were lied to'.

 

The truth is both the remain & leave campaigns told porkies, some big porkies and some not so big and mixed in there were some truths as well, which is pretty much par for the course in any political campaign that's ever been fought.

 

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1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

No, it does give a case to delay Brexit for up to two years and put someone competent in to negotiate a workable deal who isn't afraid to stand up to the EU and hold firm to red lines.

 

 

It always comes back to this or racist leave voters doesn't it?  All politicians are liars who say what you want to hear and do whatever they want when they have power.

 

Nah. People can change their minds. We get to vote for a new government every 4-5 years; we're allowed to change our mind if they turn out to be crap.

 

It's been 3 years since the vote on the referendum, but we can't change our mind when it turns out to be a crap deal? We've just to be held to it forever? Bollocks to that.

 

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1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Yeh, as usual both sides were at it, but all we ever hear is '£350m on the side of a bus' & 'leave voters were too thick, too stupid and were lied to'.

 

The truth is both the remain & leave campaigns told porkies, some big porkies and some not so big and mixed in there were some truths as well, which is pretty much par for the course in any political campaign that's ever been fought.

 

 

Arguably the figure on the side of the bus wasn't a forecast but a given?  Carney and the economists were forecasts, so not set in stone.

 

Tenuous, perhaps.

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Francis Albert
43 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Arguably the figure on the side of the bus wasn't a forecast but a given?  Carney and the economists were forecasts, so not set in stone.

 

Tenuous, perhaps.

One was an election slogan and misleading to the extent of being a lie. "We are major net contributors to the EU and if we leave we could choose how to spend that money" would have been (more)  true but not so catchy or easy to fit on the side of the bus. A smaller more realistic number would have done - no-one has much grasp of what numbers in the hundreds of millions and billions really mean.

 

As for the economists forecasts, what strikes me is that Carney and other economists forecasts have proved to be wrong or very inaccurate a few months ahead (and commonly are inaccurate in all GDP forecasts however short term, Brexit or no Brexit). However single number variations in relative GDP growth (between two complex economies with different drivers (the UK and EU) over a period of 15 years or 20 years from the base point of these forecasts are presented with no reference to the degree of uncertainty. They were and are presented by Remain as "facts" ("everyone will be poorer in every scenario") and evidence that a deal is a bad deal and Brexit will be a disaster, catastrophic, national suicide etc . I think that's about as misleading as the side of the bus. 

Edited by Francis Albert
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4 hours ago, Boris said:

 

So you admit that the Leave campaign lied, yet people have to respect the result, based on a deceitful campaign?

 

What if those who swallowed that and voted leave want to change their mind based on the exposure of these fantasies?

 

Both sides lied.  Same as the Indy Ref and any general election.

 

Only stupid people believe and trust politicians.

 

People that want to change the result have a democratic platform to do so at the next general election.

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3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Both sides lied.  Same as the Indy Ref and any general election.

 

Only stupid people believe and trust politicians.

 

People that want to change the result have a democratic platform to do so at the next general election.

 

So given that "stupid people" have been lied to and voted, how many would now change their vote? From Remain to leave or vice versa?

 

Should the country go down a particular route based on the votes of "stupid people"?

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34 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

So given that "stupid people" have been lied to and voted, how many would now change their vote? From Remain to leave or vice versa?

 

Should the country go down a particular route based on the votes of "stupid people"?

 

The term Stupid People refers to both sides.

 

Stupid people vote in general elections too but that is democracy.  You can't stop the winner of a GE taking absolute power so neither should you revoke a referendum result.  We live in a democracy, Boris and the people decided to leave.

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4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The term Stupid People refers to both sides.

 

Yeah, I acknowledged that.

 

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Stupid people vote in general elections too but that is democracy.  You can't stop the winner of a GE taking absolute power so neither should you revoke a referendum result.  We live in a democracy, Boris and the people decided to leave.

 

Democracy in its fullest Aristotelian definition!

 

I suppose my point is that if people (on both sides) have fallen for the propaganda, then given we now (a bit) more now, wouldn't it be reasonable to have a more educated electorate vote on it?

 

If it comes back as leave again then so be it.  No doubt campaigning for rejoining the EU would happen, just as the campaign to leave would have continued had remain won.

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Harry Potter
16 hours ago, Taffin said:

 

 

I didn't say anything about anyone being racist.

 

Leave voters are stupid. I won't shy away from saying that. I mean, look what you've delivered, total chaos. How are we better off now than we were? I was born a European citizen and now thanks to a bunch of middle aged simpletons I've had that taken away from. Now I get to Sabre rattle about the return of old Blighty and the glory days. Excellent.

 

Edit. Apologies for me being denigrative. There's nothing to be gained from it or going over old arguments. I'm just getting frustrated by the whole thing now. Sorry. Have a good evening

Leave voters are stupid, thats a good argument for staying right enough, oh wait you were born an EU Citizen, better  stay in then lol.

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