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Sunday bloody Sunday

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portobellojambo1
16 hours ago, rambothejambo said:

As someone who completed an active service tour in West Belfast in '86, the number of idiotic comments on this page merely confirm the saying, "better to be thought a fool, than opening your mouth and proving it". Very few of you will know what it's like to be in that sort of situation, I imagine Soldier "F" who is to possibly stand trial over in Londonderry, reacted to what he perceived to be a genuine threat. Each and every one of us knew very clearly what the rules of engagement were. I can't work out why only he has been singled out, possibly gave the fire control order or opened fire first. After the GFA it rankles that we are going after ex marines/soldiers for potential crimes, yet we have pardoned known killers of innocent men women and children. I feel, once again, that British Servicemen are being used as political pawns. How any ex Para can expect a fair hearing in a city that can't even decide it's proper title is beyond me. RTJ.

 

Very good post Sir, and I still believe the truth will come out about what happened and why, from PIRA. But I don't think it will be in time for this particular soldier unfortunately. He was there doing his job, but I do believe there were people there dressed in civilian clothing both in possession of and using weapons.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1382070/I-fired-shots-on-Bloody-Sunday-says-IRA-man.html?fbclid=IwAR0Z1G972xMC5ZJTrVEYKMCfhIUDsguCiRVK-BXS4kIvsIQR9l3p117_yNI

 

 

 

 

 

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AlphonseCapone
17 hours ago, rambothejambo said:

As someone who completed an active service tour in West Belfast in '86, the number of idiotic comments on this page merely confirm the saying, "better to be thought a fool, than opening your mouth and proving it". Very few of you will know what it's like to be in that sort of situation, I imagine Soldier "F" who is to possibly stand trial over in Londonderry, reacted to what he perceived to be a genuine threat. Each and every one of us knew very clearly what the rules of engagement were. I can't work out why only he has been singled out, possibly gave the fire control order or opened fire first. After the GFA it rankles that we are going after ex marines/soldiers for potential crimes, yet we have pardoned known killers of innocent men women and children. I feel, once again, that British Servicemen are being used as political pawns. How any ex Para can expect a fair hearing in a city that can't even decide it's proper title is beyond me. RTJ.

 

Good post. 

 

I know people first hand on both sides of this conflict, not Bloody Sunday specifically, but one being a soldier who served in the North so I have a particularly split view on it all. Though the army do have much to answer for on that day, I am pretty uncomfortable with one guy in particular essentially taking the blame and the argument about known terrorists getting a clean slate from the GFA but soldiers being pursued is a strong one and also adds to my unease. 

 

On a wider point about letting sleeping dogs lie, I do think there needs to be investigations into collusion between Loyalist paramilitaries and the security forces. Not saying for individual convictions but certainly for truth purposes and to ensure the same circumstances that allowed it to happen in the first place can never happen again in any other context. 

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His name is
1 hour ago, portobellojambo1 said:

 

Very good post Sir, and I still believe the truth will come out about what happened and why, from PIRA. But I don't think it will be in time for this particular soldier unfortunately. He was there doing his job, but I do believe there were people there dressed in civilian clothing both in possession of and using weapons.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1382070/I-fired-shots-on-Bloody-Sunday-says-IRA-man.html?fbclid=IwAR0Z1G972xMC5ZJTrVEYKMCfhIUDsguCiRVK-BXS4kIvsIQR9l3p117_yNI

 

 

 

 

 

Again I agree with this.

 

This civil rights match is being made out to be a peaceful 'flower power' type affair. 

 

In truth there was mass riots and armed IRA units out in force. 

 

The British government are bending over backwards to appease the noisy republicans! Abolsoluty disgraceful. 

 

 

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Toxteth O'Grady
18 hours ago, rambothejambo said:

As someone who completed an active service tour in West Belfast in '86, the number of idiotic comments on this page merely confirm the saying, "better to be thought a fool, than opening your mouth and proving it". Very few of you will know what it's like to be in that sort of situation, I imagine Soldier "F" who is to possibly stand trial over in Londonderry, reacted to what he perceived to be a genuine threat. Each and every one of us knew very clearly what the rules of engagement were. I can't work out why only he has been singled out, possibly gave the fire control order or opened fire first. After the GFA it rankles that we are going after ex marines/soldiers for potential crimes, yet we have pardoned known killers of innocent men women and children. I feel, once again, that British Servicemen are being used as political pawns. How any ex Para can expect a fair hearing in a city that can't even decide it's proper title is beyond me. RTJ.

I don't disagree with anything you've said but surely that is the definition of the armed services.

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Mikey1874
11 hours ago, His name is said:

Again I agree with this.

 

This civil rights match is being made out to be a peaceful 'flower power' type affair. 

 

In truth there was mass riots and armed IRA units out in force. 

 

The British government are bending over backwards to appease the noisy republicans! Abolsoluty disgraceful. 

 

 

 

That was done with the apology by David Cameron in 2010. This is a neutral action by N Ireland prosecuters. 

 

The theories on here may be valid. But a major investigation lasting 10 years said those killed by the British army on the day were not carrying weapons. Conspiracy theory to suggest otherwise. The army faced huge and constant pressure and danger. But only these guys killed any civilians. 

 

Still. The past happened. They really should try to look forward in N.Ireland. Too much self interest in the 'communities' whether that's protecting the criminals /drug dealers or pushing their vision of the Ireland they want. 

 

A trial for something 47 years ago doesn't do that albeit the grief and anger of the people who lost relatives is valid. They really should do the  'Truth and Reconciliation' thing. Though the Army saying they didn't do anything might still always be their position. 

 

I think there is a good chance a trial won't happen. There is no way this ex soldier would get a fair trial by jury. I think there will be a petition to rule out a trial. Even then there will be difficulties with any evidence given the time passed. Not guilty is the most likely outcome. 

 

See what happens. But those responsible in N. Ireland need to pursue peace now. It is just possible a trial might help that. But setting aside the past would help more. 

Edited by Mikey1874

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FinnBarr Saunders
13 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Good post. 

 

I know people first hand on both sides of this conflict, not Bloody Sunday specifically, but one being a soldier who served in the North so I have a particularly split view on it all. Though the army do have much to answer for on that day, I am pretty uncomfortable with one guy in particular essentially taking the blame and the argument about known terrorists getting a clean slate from the GFA but soldiers being pursued is a strong one and also adds to my unease. 

 

On a wider point about letting sleeping dogs lie, I do think there needs to be investigations into collusion between Loyalist paramilitaries and the security forces. Not saying for individual convictions but certainly for truth purposes and to ensure the same circumstances that allowed it to happen in the first place can never happen again in any other context. 

 

I've known a few guys who served in NI, mostly Royal Scots, 1 SAS. One guy In the RS actually sat on his rucksack as they set up a checkpoint in South Armagh and it was right on top of a bomb with a command wire leading over the border, it was detonated but only the detonator went off chucking him over the road, widely reported in the newspapers at time, but military "experts" commented at the time that the bomb itself was big enough to have killed the 12 squaddies present.  

 

Oddly enough, the guy I'm talking about was a Jambo and on my FB then he turned into a Hobbit! Started posting pro IRA stuff too and was swiftly removed. Bye Curly

Edited by FinnBarr Saunders

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Bridge of Djoum

Nice to see our ''military experts'' walk away from the thread quietly when they've had it pointed out to them, by men in the know with real experience, that they are talking utter shite. 

 

Must be a nice luxury to pontificate on something that carries a danger so real and terrifying, from the comfort of your home, when the most dangerous incident of your life was putting that extra wee bit Wasabi on your sushi. 

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davemclaren
12 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

Nice to see our ''military experts'' walk away from the thread quietly when they've had it pointed out to them, by men in the know with real experience, that they are talking utter shite. 

 

Must be a nice luxury to pontificate on something that carries a danger so real and terrifying, from the comfort of your home, when the most dangerous incident of your life was putting that extra wee bit Wasabi on your sushi. 

That’s what happens in a democracy, people are allowed opinions,  based on a lot or sometimes very little info. 

 

Re the events, there must some strong evidence if the authorities are confident they can get a conviction after all these years. 

 

I don’t know enough about what ‘non prosecution’ agreements exist for terrorists, on either side, to make a lot if  comment but some equivalence on the security forces side would seem fair if thst us the case. 

 

In saying that, I think we should expect ( and generally get ) a higher standard of behaviour from our police/military than terrorist organisations. However, unlike a certain government minister, I don’t agree that they can do no wrong and should not be subject to the law. 

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Bridge of Djoum
9 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

That’s what happens in a democracy, people are allowed opinions,  based on a lot or sometimes very little info. 

 

Re the events, there must some strong evidence if the authorities are confident they can get a conviction after all these years. 

 

I don’t know enough about what ‘non prosecution’ agreements exist for terrorists, on either side, to make a lot if  comment but some equivalence on the security forces side would seem fair if thst us the case. 

 

In saying that, I think we should expect ( and generally get ) a higher standard of behaviour from our police/military than terrorist organisations. However, unlike a certain government minister, I don’t agree that they can do no wrong and should not be subject to the law. 

Opinions without knowledge or understanding are generally nonsense. 

 

Expecting higher standards from the military is something I wholeheartedly agree with and I think their level of professionalism and dedication is almost unmatched. On the flip side expecting more from people who leave home, family and kids for months on end, are not well paid, have clear and present threats on a daily basis and therefore are under enormous pressure... I'd rather we supported them fully than expect more and more. The modern armed forces are stretched to such an extent that a friend of mine currently serving has been home exactly 9 weeks in just under 2 years. He needs help more than more expectation. 

 

Anyone who replies... ''aye but he chose it''... can do one. 

 

Also, any military personnel found accused of a crime should of course be tried as the law dictates. But to go after a pensioner 40 years later, bearing in mind the theater he operated in is appalling. 

 

 

Edited by Bridge of Djoum

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davemclaren
8 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

Opinions without knowledge or understanding are generally nonsense. 

 

 

People tend to have varying levels of knowledge and understanding and while knowledge can generally be seen as objective, understanding is less so, 

 

Most opinions on this are formed on what people have read or seen on TV and other media. I think it’s unfair to say they shouldn’t form opinions based on that. The people that were there at the time certainly have a unique and valuable perspective. However, most will be a tad biased...in my opinion. 😎

 

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Bridge of Djoum
12 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

People tend to have varying levels of knowledge and understanding and while knowledge can generally be seen as objective, understanding is less so, 

 

Most opinions on this are formed on what people have read or seen on TV and other media. I think it’s unfair to say they shouldn’t form opinions based on that. The people that were there at the time certainly have a unique and valuable perspective. However, most will be a tad biased...in my opinion. 😎

 

A lot will form opinion having read 'Bravo Two Zero'' and watched ''Platoon'' a few times. Watching documentaries on a subject gives you a very limited understanding. An insight at most. To take that insight or limited informed opinion and argue with someone who has very real experience, for me that borders on stupidity. 

 

And of course there is ''bias''. That is not unique to that profession. To daily trust someone with your life, very literally, will do that. 

Edited by Bridge of Djoum

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davemclaren
1 minute ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

A lot will form opinion having read 'Bravo Two Zero'' and watched ''Platoon'' a few times. Watching documentaries on a subject gives you a very limited understanding. An insight at most. To take that insight or limited informed opinion and argue with someone who has very real experience, for me that borders on stupidity. 

I think you have to respect the opinions of those that were there but, as I said before, they were not neutral observers ( on either side ) and thise if us tgat weren’t there have to make judgements on what they think happened from the information available.  Similarly, that’s what the jury will have to ( or should ) do in soldier F’s trial, based on the evidence produced by the prosecution and the defence. Not an easy job. 

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Bridge of Djoum
3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I think you have to respect the opinions of those that were there but, as I said before, they were not neutral observers ( on either side ) and thise if us tgat weren’t there have to make judgements on what they think happened from the information available.  Similarly, that’s what the jury will have to ( or should ) do in soldier F’s trial, based on the evidence produced by the prosecution and the defence. Not an easy job. 

:thumbs_up:

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ri Alban
36 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

A lot will form opinion having read 'Bravo Two Zero'' and watched ''Platoon'' a few times. Watching documentaries on a subject gives you a very limited understanding. An insight at most. To take that insight or limited informed opinion and argue with someone who has very real experience, for me that borders on stupidity. 

 

And of course there is ''bias''. That is not unique to that profession. To daily trust someone with your life, very literally, will do that. 

Did you do your T.o.D in NI, Germany or Iraq?

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Bridge of Djoum
Just now, ri Alban said:

Did you do your T.o.D in NI, Germany or Iraq?

I served in both the 1st Gulf conflict and the Bosnian conflict in the Adriatic. Vast majority of my time was in the Middle East. 

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Bridge of Djoum
18 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Did you do your T.o.D in NI, Germany or Iraq?

My older brother was also a Marine, he served in the Falklands and 2 deployments in NI.

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ri Alban
1 hour ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

My older brother was also a Marine, he served in the Falklands and 2 deployments in NI.

👍

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rambothejambo
2 hours ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

Opinions without knowledge or understanding are generally nonsense. 

 

Expecting higher standards from the military is something I wholeheartedly agree with and I think their level of professionalism and dedication is almost unmatched. On the flip side expecting more from people who leave home, family and kids for months on end, are not well paid, have clear and present threats on a daily basis and therefore are under enormous pressure... I'd rather we supported them fully than expect more and more. The modern armed forces are stretched to such an extent that a friend of mine currently serving has been home exactly 9 weeks in just under 2 years. He needs help more than more expectation. 

 

Anyone who replies... ''aye but he chose it''... can do one. 

 

Also, any military personnel found accused of a crime should of course be tried as the law dictates. But to go after a pensioner 40 years later, bearing in mind the theater he operated in is appalling. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

My older brother was also a Marine, he served in the Falklands and 2 deployments in NI.

BoD , some well made points there fella, there is definitely a higher expectation of standards & professionalism in our Armed Forces,

its what sets us apart. Sometimes on active service these levels are pushed right to the limit, it's how you react then that can, literally, be the difference between life and death, or right and wrong. Until people have walked in those shoes they shouldn't judge. You mentioned your brother served in the Corps, was he based up at 45 back in the '80's?, if so a good chance I'll know him. RTJ.

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Bridge of Djoum
1 minute ago, rambothejambo said:

 

BoD , some well made points there fella, there is definitely a higher expectation of standards & professionalism in our Armed Forces,

its what sets us apart. Sometimes on active service these levels are pushed right to the limit, it's how you react then that can, literally, be the difference between life and death, or right and wrong. Until people have walked in those shoes they shouldn't judge. You mentioned your brother served in the Corps, was he based up at 45 back in the '80's?, if so a good chance I'll know him. RTJ.

Hey mate.

 

My brother in-law was also a Marine he served up at Condor for years during the 80's-90's. Graeme Wakeford. Dog handler.

My brother was 42, based in Plymouth. He joined in 79. 

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rambothejambo
2 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

Hey mate.

 

My brother in-law was also a Marine he served up at Condor for years during the 80's-90's. Graeme Wakeford. Dog handler.

My brother was 42, based in Plymouth. He joined in 79. 

Spent nearly five years there, '83- end '87, don't recognise your brother in law's name. What I do remember is having a wee gander to see the hounds the dog handlers look after, feck me, they are fearsome looking beasts!! Hope he and your bro are both doing well, we are a pretty small band of brothers. RTJ.

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Bridge of Djoum
2 minutes ago, rambothejambo said:

Spent nearly five years there, '83- end '87, don't recognise your brother in law's name. What I do remember is having a wee gander to see the hounds the dog handlers look after, feck me, they are fearsome looking beasts!! Hope he and your bro are both doing well, we are a pretty small band of brothers. RTJ.

They exclusively used German Shepherds back then Beautiful but yes, fearsome. 

 

Both are well. Brother in-law is an MOD sergeant, on the boats at Faslane. My brother, (with his psychology degree) is in Engineering somewhere out by the airport. He was a motorcycle instructor at 2 wheels in Edinburgh. 

 

Hope you're well.

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rambothejambo
1 minute ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

They exclusively used German Shepherds back then Beautiful but yes, fearsome. 

 

Both are well. Brother in-law is an MOD sergeant, on the boats at Faslane. My brother, (with his psychology degree) is in Engineering somewhere out by the airport. He was a motorcycle instructor at 2 wheels in Edinburgh. 

 

Hope you're well. 

Good to hear, I'm well too, thanks for asking, spent a couple of years off-shore when I left the Corps, then luckily landed a job with BP at Grangemouth. Will have been here 30 years as of next Wednesday, can retire in 13 months at age 55! Happy Days!

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Bridge of Djoum
4 minutes ago, rambothejambo said:

Good to hear, I'm well too, thanks for asking, spent a couple of years off-shore when I left the Corps, then luckily landed a job with BP at Grangemouth. Will have been here 30 years as of next Wednesday, can retire in 13 months at age 55! Happy Days!

Lovely age to retire...congrats!

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John Findlay
1 hour ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

Hey mate.

 

My brother in-law was also a Marine he served up at Condor for years during the 80's-90's. Graeme Wakeford. Dog handler.

My brother was 42, based in Plymouth. He joined in 79. 

I may know your brother. I joined the RN in 79 all the way through to 90.

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Bridge of Djoum
18 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I may know your brother. I joined the RN in 79 all the way through to 90.

Bill Anderson. Big blonde guy. 

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John Findlay
1 hour ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

Bill Anderson. Big blonde guy. 

Alas no.

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