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Jambothump

Sunday bloody Sunday

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Jambothump

Soldiers training is not to be retaliatory, it is to contain and react against threat. I would not have liked to be a soldier in Northern Ireland, at that time, would you?

 

We treat them, (irish) same as Westminster treats us here in scotland, give ireland back to these twats.

 

English empire dwindles to nothingness, so sad for that horrible nation, like us, built on slavery

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Mikey1874

The killings in Derry made the Provisional IRA and changed a very serious public order problem into a full borne war. 

 

Maybe leading to 2,000 plus deaths. By trigger happy soldiers. 

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doctor jambo

English empire?

Really?

Trigger happy soldiers?

 

Could have been scared young men you know in a dangerous situation.

We can give letters to terrorists who blew up pregnant women to let them off the hook,

yet pursue our soldiers?

 

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Mikey1874
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

English empire?

Really?

Trigger happy soldiers?

 

Could have been scared young men you know in a dangerous situation.

We can give letters to terrorists who blew up pregnant women to let them off the hook,

yet pursue our soldiers?

 

 

I'm open to all the views and I don't believe any prosecutions serve any useful purpose.

 

But these were elite soldiers. The level just down from the SAS. Not 'scared young men'. They went out to show people they were in charge.

 

While the evidence doesn't back this up I still believe they were probably shot at from the high flats. 

 

But their attitude was all wrong. Not peacekeepers but war like in a still largely civilian environment. 

 

And they gave the IRA their best possible recruiting call and as important change the whole dynamic. The ordinary housewife and others changed from still respecting the British army to supporting the IRA. 

Edited by Mikey1874

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doctor jambo
Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

I'm open to all the views and I don't believe any prosecutions serve any useful purpose.

 

But these were elite soldiers. The level just down from the SAS. Not 'scared young men'. They went out to show people they were in charge.

 

While the evidence doesn't back this up I still believe they were probably shot at from the high flats. 

 

But their attitude was all wrong. Not peacekeepers but war like. 

 

And they gave the IRA their best possible recruiting call and as important change the whole dynamic. The ordinary housewife and others changed from still respecting the British army to supporting the IRA. 

The truth will never be found, from either side.

 

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Homme
18 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

English empire?

Really?

Trigger happy soldiers?

 

Could have been scared young men you know in a dangerous situation.

We can give letters to terrorists who blew up pregnant women to let them off the hook,

yet pursue our soldiers?

 

 

That's a bit of whataboutery.

 

We should treat all murderers the same.

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Jambothump
Posted (edited)

Give them back (?) their country, any protestant there is a descendant of the oliver cromwell culture. We do not belong in their arsehole religion and culture,  leave them to it, ones left there are loyalist twats.

Edited by Jambothump

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doctor jambo
7 minutes ago, Homme said:

 

That's a bit of whataboutery.

 

We should treat all murderers the same.

Of course, Adams and all the other Provos should be jailed ad infinitum.

Jonny Adair and his ilk likewise.

The Paras similar,

 

Because tit-for-tat has really helped settle the Ulster issue down over the last 500 years..............

or we could do peace and reconciliation.

 

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Mikey1874
1 minute ago, doctor jambo said:

Of course, Adams and all the other Provos should be jailed ad infinitum.

Jonny Adair and his ilk likewise.

The Paras similar,

 

Because tit-for-tat has really helped settle the Ulster issue down over the last 500 years..............

or we could do peace and reconciliation.

 

 

The fact they haven't been able to agree a peace and reconciliation process like took place in South Africa shows the continuing problems in getting agreement for anything. 

 

It would be very helpful to put everything to bed. 

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Locky

I'm sure all of us on this board have been sent into a war zone with a rifle right enough.

 

None of us can comprehend what it means to be put in a situation of kill or be killed. It's not the soldier with the gun who is the murderer in my eyes, it's the top brass who start the war and more or less sanction these killings.

 

And, anyone who thinks the IRA were totally innocent and their actions were justified, are totally wrong.

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Mikey1874
1 minute ago, Locky said:

I'm sure all of us on this board have been sent into a war zone with a rifle right enough.

 

None of us can comprehend what it means to be put in a situation of kill or be killed. It's not the soldier with the gun who is the murderer in my eyes, it's the top brass who start the war and more or less sanction these killings.

 

And, anyone who thinks the IRA were totally innocent and their actions were justified, are totally wrong.

 

All those killed were civilians and found to have been no threat to the soldiers.

 

And it was a public order situation not yet a war zone. 

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Locky
Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

All those killed were civilians and found to have been no threat to the soldiers.

 

And it was a public order situation not yet a war zone. 

I'm talking about the troubles as a whole.

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Dunks
32 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

But these were elite soldiers.

 

And yet one (soldier H) claimed to have seen a sniper at a nearby window, so he took aim and fired. 19 rounds in total. At a window. The window survived completely unscathed.

 

I dread to think what might have happened if it was the TA.

 

 

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Mikey1874
13 minutes ago, Dunks said:

 

And yet one (soldier H) claimed to have seen a sniper at a nearby window, so he took aim and fired. 19 rounds in total. At a window. The window survived completely unscathed.

 

I dread to think what might have happened if it was the TA.

 

While I am not specifically questioning that account, the Prosecution Service are still looking at perjury charges against the soldiers. 

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Jambo100

Did the catholic’s have equal rights.Answer no.

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Justin Z
54 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

The truth will never be found, from either side.

 

 

Good thing this isn't a question of truth, it's a question of the subjective feelings of everyone involved.

 

The actions of the British Army on Bloody Sunday overwhelmingly changed the subjective feelings of a countless number of people, to the detriment of everyone involved.

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FWJ

Maybe we should send the Scots back to Ireland and leave Caledonia to the Celts and Picts.

In fact maybe we should get rid of the Northumbrians, Norse and Celts and leave it all to the Picts.

 

Goodness.  Where to start.

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Cruyff Turn

All terrorists on both sides got a get out of jail card because of the GFA which was agreed upon by the majority on both sides.

 

They are still terrorsts however and their actions will never be legitimised.

 

The British Army abides by the Geneva Convention and rules of engagement, that is what separates them from being terrorists.

 

So if any soldier has been found to crossed the line, they should be prosecuted. 

 

My fither in law served with the Scots Guards and did 2 tours of N.Ireland. He was there originally to protect the Catholic community from loyalist bigots and his first scraps over there were with the loyalists. 

 

It all changed when the Paras went in and got trigger happy. 

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Salad Fingers

The Ballymurphy inquest is also still ongoing.  Another one involving soldiers from the Parachute Regiment (albeit before Bloody Sunday). 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47568825?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cn5kkzggg6gt/ballymurphy-inquest&link_location=live-reporting-story

 

 

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John Findlay
2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

The killings in Derry made the Provisional IRA and changed a very serious public order problem into a full borne war. 

 

Maybe leading to 2,000 plus deaths. By trigger happy soldiers. 

Codswallop

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southcap
3 hours ago, Locky said:

I'm sure all of us on this board have been sent into a war zone with a rifle right enough.

 

None of us can comprehend what it means to be put in a situation of kill or be killed. It's not the soldier with the gun who is the murderer in my eyes, it's the top brass who start the war and more or less sanction these killings.

 

And, anyone who thinks the IRA were totally innocent and their actions were justified, are totally wrong.

In an all volunteer army, you are 100% responsible for donning a uniform and having a rifle in your hands.

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southcap
3 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

All terrorists on both sides got a get out of jail card because of the GFA which was agreed upon by the majority on both sides.

 

They are still terrorsts however and their actions will never be legitimised.

 

The British Army abides by the Geneva Convention and rules of engagement, that is what separates them from being terrorists.

 

So if any soldier has been found to crossed the line, they should be prosecuted. 

 

My fither in law served with the Scots Guards and did 2 tours of N.Ireland. He was there originally to protect the Catholic community from loyalist bigots and his first scraps over there were with the loyalists. 

 

It all changed when the Paras went in and got trigger happy. 

Only for those already prosecuted.

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cheetah

Image result for Bono in celtic top

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fabienleclerq
Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, southcap said:

In an all volunteer army, you are 100% responsible for donning a uniform and having a rifle in your hands.

 

 

Edited by fabienleclerq

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Adam Murray
1 hour ago, southcap said:

Only for those already prosecuted.

 

Not true, those already prosecuted were released under the GFA, those who were on the run, or suspected of criminal activity were sent 'comfort letters' informing them they were no longer wanted by the police, which begs the question, why were members on the armed forces who were under suspicion, not given the same assurances?

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/11340732/Tony-Blair-and-the-IRA-comfort-letters-the-issues.html

 

 

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haveyouheard 22
5 hours ago, Jambothump said:

Give them back (?) their country, any protestant there is a descendant of the oliver cromwell culture. We do not belong in their arsehole religion and culture,  leave them to it, ones left there are loyalist twats.

Twats on both sides and has been from the off  but you go back to Olivers days, thats some take

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His name is
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

And they gave the IRA their best possible recruiting call and as important change the whole dynamic.

Or the IRA gave themselves their best possible recruiting call by turning the protest in to a shoot out. 

Edited by His name is

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His name is
5 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Good thing this isn't a question of truth, it's a question of the subjective feelings of everyone involved.

 

The actions of the British Army on Bloody Sunday overwhelmingly changed the subjective feelings of a countless number of people, to the detriment of everyone involved.

When someone is being tried for murder then it's wholey a question of the truth. 

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superjack
7 minutes ago, His name is said:

Or the IRA gave themselves their best possible recruiting call by turning the protest in to a shoot out. 

That's the same thought I have as well.

Personally, I believe all ira members should have been lined up against a wall and shot. The loyalists too.

Anyone who thinks bombing innocents in pubs, shops etc are utter scum.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn

I agree with the sentiment that if the GFA let a lot of crimes lie, this one should be allowed to lie too.

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Tazio

Britain’s Sharpesville 

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Zico
7 hours ago, cheetah said:

Image result for Bono in celtic top

bygBoHt4bO4x.gif

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southcap
16 hours ago, Adam Murray said:

 

Not true, those already prosecuted were released under the GFA, those who were on the run, or suspected of criminal activity were sent 'comfort letters' informing them they were no longer wanted by the police, which begs the question, why were members on the armed forces who were under suspicion, not given the same assurances?

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/11340732/Tony-Blair-and-the-IRA-comfort-letters-the-issues.html

 

 

Never knew about that, ****ing ridiculous.

 

Of course the best course of action is to let bygones be bygones.

 

But, the GFA was a get out of jail card for the IRA, the Loyalists and the British forces.

 

The problem, the people who died on bloody sunday had nothing to do with either, just innocent people. Can you really blame them for pushing for things when they got nothing out of the GFA?

 

Put it this way, if a family member of yours was killed by the IRA and you had a stick to beat them with, wouldn't you?:

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Justin Z
15 hours ago, His name is said:

When someone is being tried for murder then it's wholey a question of the truth. 

 

A laudable idea, but I can't agree. As a lawyer I have been convinced that the number of times justice systems concern themselves with "Truth" with a capital T, in comparison to, say, just keeping order at any cost, are vanishingly small.

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Captain Sausage

Maybe been asked before, but I thought there was an immunity granted to all during the troubles?

 

Why, then, are these soldiers being prosecuted? Apologies if a daft question, asking from a position of serious ignorance. 

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Cruyff Turn
3 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

Maybe been asked before, but I thought there was an immunity granted to all during the troubles?

 

Why, then, are these soldiers being prosecuted? Apologies if a daft question, asking from a position of serious ignorance. 

The Paras involved were offered immunity from prosecution during the Saville inquiry in 2002/03 if they told the truth, instead they stuck to their 1972 statements.

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Seymour M Hersh
On 14/03/2019 at 16:01, cheetah said:

Image result for Bono in celtic top

 

I wonder if he sent his private jet to get his scarf? Virtue signalling prick! 

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rambothejambo

As someone who completed an active service tour in West Belfast in '86, the number of idiotic comments on this page merely confirm the saying, "better to be thought a fool, than opening your mouth and proving it". Very few of you will know what it's like to be in that sort of situation, I imagine Soldier "F" who is to possibly stand trial over in Londonderry, reacted to what he perceived to be a genuine threat. Each and every one of us knew very clearly what the rules of engagement were. I can't work out why only he has been singled out, possibly gave the fire control order or opened fire first. After the GFA it rankles that we are going after ex marines/soldiers for potential crimes, yet we have pardoned known killers of innocent men women and children. I feel, once again, that British Servicemen are being used as political pawns. How any ex Para can expect a fair hearing in a city that can't even decide it's proper title is beyond me. RTJ.

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The Real Maroonblood
5 minutes ago, rambothejambo said:

As someone who completed an active service tour in West Belfast in '86, the number of idiotic comments on this page merely confirm the saying, "better to be thought a fool, than opening your mouth and proving it". Very few of you will know what it's like to be in that sort of situation, I imagine Soldier "F" who is to possibly stand trial over in Londonderry, reacted to what he perceived to be a genuine threat. Each and every one of us knew very clearly what the rules of engagement were. I can't work out why only he has been singled out, possibly gave the fire control order or opened fire first. After the GFA it rankles that we are going after ex marines/soldiers for potential crimes, yet we have pardoned known killers of innocent men women and children. I feel, once again, that British Servicemen are being used as political pawns. How any ex Para can expect a fair hearing in a city that can't even decide it's proper title is beyond me. RTJ.

Good post.

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Class of 75
20 minutes ago, rambothejambo said:

As someone who completed an active service tour in West Belfast in '86, the number of idiotic comments on this page merely confirm the saying, "better to be thought a fool, than opening your mouth and proving it". Very few of you will know what it's like to be in that sort of situation, I imagine Soldier "F" who is to possibly stand trial over in Londonderry, reacted to what he perceived to be a genuine threat. Each and every one of us knew very clearly what the rules of engagement were. I can't work out why only he has been singled out, possibly gave the fire control order or opened fire first. After the GFA it rankles that we are going after ex marines/soldiers for potential crimes, yet we have pardoned known killers of innocent men women and children. I feel, once again, that British Servicemen are being used as political pawns. How any ex Para can expect a fair hearing in a city that can't even decide it's proper title is beyond me. RTJ.

Good post. 

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The Comedian
23 minutes ago, rambothejambo said:

As someone who completed an active service tour in West Belfast in '86, the number of idiotic comments on this page merely confirm the saying, "better to be thought a fool, than opening your mouth and proving it". Very few of you will know what it's like to be in that sort of situation, I imagine Soldier "F" who is to possibly stand trial over in Londonderry, reacted to what he perceived to be a genuine threat. Each and every one of us knew very clearly what the rules of engagement were. I can't work out why only he has been singled out, possibly gave the fire control order or opened fire first. After the GFA it rankles that we are going after ex marines/soldiers for potential crimes, yet we have pardoned known killers of innocent men women and children. I feel, once again, that British Servicemen are being used as political pawns. How any ex Para can expect a fair hearing in a city that can't even decide it's proper title is beyond me. RTJ.

 

Spot on.

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i8hibsh
33 minutes ago, rambothejambo said:

As someone who completed an active service tour in West Belfast in '86, the number of idiotic comments on this page merely confirm the saying, "better to be thought a fool, than opening your mouth and proving it". Very few of you will know what it's like to be in that sort of situation, I imagine Soldier "F" who is to possibly stand trial over in Londonderry, reacted to what he perceived to be a genuine threat. Each and every one of us knew very clearly what the rules of engagement were. I can't work out why only he has been singled out, possibly gave the fire control order or opened fire first. After the GFA it rankles that we are going after ex marines/soldiers for potential crimes, yet we have pardoned known killers of innocent men women and children. I feel, once again, that British Servicemen are being used as political pawns. How any ex Para can expect a fair hearing in a city that can't even decide it's proper title is beyond me. RTJ.

 

 

Well said Sir.

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Adam Murray
1 hour ago, rambothejambo said:

As someone who completed an active service tour in West Belfast in '86, the number of idiotic comments on this page merely confirm the saying, "better to be thought a fool, than opening your mouth and proving it". Very few of you will know what it's like to be in that sort of situation, I imagine Soldier "F" who is to possibly stand trial over in Londonderry, reacted to what he perceived to be a genuine threat. Each and every one of us knew very clearly what the rules of engagement were. I can't work out why only he has been singled out, possibly gave the fire control order or opened fire first. After the GFA it rankles that we are going after ex marines/soldiers for potential crimes, yet we have pardoned known killers of innocent men women and children. I feel, once again, that British Servicemen are being used as political pawns. How any ex Para can expect a fair hearing in a city that can't even decide it's proper title is beyond me. RTJ.

 

Well said.

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Dunks
On 14/03/2019 at 16:01, cheetah said:

Image result for Bono in celtic top

 

Irishman with Irish flag shock.

 

 

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argyjambo
2 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I wonder if he sent his private jet to get his scarf? Virtue signalling prick! 

Absolutely, what's the betting he shat on his seat, assaulted stewards, police & catering staff, set off flares & dressed up as a paramilitary whilst bearing a forged ticket.

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Salad Fingers
2 hours ago, rambothejambo said:

As someone who completed an active service tour in West Belfast in '86, the number of idiotic comments on this page merely confirm the saying, "better to be thought a fool, than opening your mouth and proving it". Very few of you will know what it's like to be in that sort of situation, I imagine Soldier "F" who is to possibly stand trial over in Londonderry, reacted to what he perceived to be a genuine threat. Each and every one of us knew very clearly what the rules of engagement were. I can't work out why only he has been singled out, possibly gave the fire control order or opened fire first. After the GFA it rankles that we are going after ex marines/soldiers for potential crimes, yet we have pardoned known killers of innocent men women and children. I feel, once again, that British Servicemen are being used as political pawns. How any ex Para can expect a fair hearing in a city that can't even decide it's proper title is beyond me. RTJ.

 

I don't think anyone can argue with that. 

 

There's a documentary on YouTube called simply, the Troubles. It's in 8 parts, has some fantastic footage through the years. I wonder if the footage of that day was used during this hearing. It shows you the views from where the soldiers were and it is quite a chaotic scene, especially given it was a built up area, with possible snipers in Windows or on roofs. Those interviewed after it were adamant there was shots fired at them and that at least three of them killed were armed. 

 

I read Contact recently, about a Paras two tours in the 70s, one in Belfast and one in South Armagh. Although he admitted they threw their weight about on the streets at times, they lived in fear of their lives at every second on they streets. 

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His name is
4 hours ago, rambothejambo said:

As someone who completed an active service tour in West Belfast in '86, the number of idiotic comments on this page merely confirm the saying, "better to be thought a fool, than opening your mouth and proving it". Very few of you will know what it's like to be in that sort of situation, I imagine Soldier "F" who is to possibly stand trial over in Londonderry, reacted to what he perceived to be a genuine threat. Each and every one of us knew very clearly what the rules of engagement were. I can't work out why only he has been singled out, possibly gave the fire control order or opened fire first. After the GFA it rankles that we are going after ex marines/soldiers for potential crimes, yet we have pardoned known killers of innocent men women and children. I feel, once again, that British Servicemen are being used as political pawns. How any ex Para can expect a fair hearing in a city that can't even decide it's proper title is beyond me. RTJ.

Spot on

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Bridge of Djoum
On 14/03/2019 at 12:01, cheetah said:

Image result for Bono in celtic top

Hypocritical prick of a man.

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luckyBatistuta
9 hours ago, rambothejambo said:

As someone who completed an active service tour in West Belfast in '86, the number of idiotic comments on this page merely confirm the saying, "better to be thought a fool, than opening your mouth and proving it". Very few of you will know what it's like to be in that sort of situation, I imagine Soldier "F" who is to possibly stand trial over in Londonderry, reacted to what he perceived to be a genuine threat. Each and every one of us knew very clearly what the rules of engagement were. I can't work out why only he has been singled out, possibly gave the fire control order or opened fire first. After the GFA it rankles that we are going after ex marines/soldiers for potential crimes, yet we have pardoned known killers of innocent men women and children. I feel, once again, that British Servicemen are being used as political pawns. How any ex Para can expect a fair hearing in a city that can't even decide it's proper title is beyond me. RTJ.

 

Have been popping on to read the comments on the thread, but haven’t posted anything myself, as I don’t feel I know enough on the subject matter to pass any judgements. I do think this is a very good post though and agree about your point about being political pawns.

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