Cade Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Is Cohen not a convicted Liar. Why would anyone believe him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bindy Badgy Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Republicans doing a good job of making Cohen look like a reasonable person. More interested in attacking him than finding out what he knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Barack said: That point can be levelled at any criminal, who turns State's Evidence. 99%, aren't doing it to ease their consciences. If it eases their sentence..."Great. Where's the pen & paper...?" Like I've said; personally, I'm loathe to take his testimony at face value. But, I think there're elements within it, that are indeed damaging to Trump, from what I've seen so far. GOP members, will no doubt be chuffed that he's not said definitely there's been Russian collusion. The hole in that particular bucket, is that there are others already indicted, that were more involved on a day-to-day basis who have cooperated so far, & will know for sure. That's before those not indicted yet, receive a probable summons. (Looking at you, Junior...) Some good news on the national emergency pish today. One more house to bin it altogether. Edited February 27, 2019 by ri Alban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Republicans trying to make this into a circus side show to deflect from what is actually being said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 I watched more than four hours today. Democrats asking repeated questions to gain evidence on Trump, Republicans continuously repeating Cohens convictions and bad character. To me Cohen is a liar, and once a liar always a liar. The problem he has is that the Republicans are trying to demean him in their effort to support a person who is as big a liar and who paid Cohen to lie on occasions. Nothing is being gained by this obvious political spectacle, and any politician involved who says he is doing it for the people is as big a liar as the two principals. They are all doing it for one reason and one reason alone the 2020 election. Was it Shakespeare who wrote a pox on all of them. It cost me four hours of my life I will never get back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Cohen is a liar. He's admitted it. So that makes him a witness of dubious value. But if he is so bad, why did Donald Trump keep him around for 10 years. Trump would have to be gullible in the extreme to allow that to happen, and I've yet to hear anyone describe Trump as gullible. It seems clear to me that Trump was happy to have a liar and a cheat as his 'fixer', and Cohen's shady character has only become an issue since he started assisting the Special Prosecutor. Trump is also a liar, thousands of times documented in his two years as POTUS, but the Republicans on this committee are interested only in Cohen's lies. I gave up watching the event. It has become repetitive and predictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Trump is done is my takeaway after watching that. There is much still to come from the NYC Southern District and Mueller. Donnie Jr also implicated via signing that cheque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooperstar Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 I read his opening statement. I hate Trump. I had seen it was 'explosive'. I didn't get explosiveness from it. Unfortunately his past actions have voided him of any real credibility. Specifically where it matters in this age of 'fake news'. This Trump thing is basically Admin 2 for Rangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughesie27 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 So Cohen has no real evidence of what he claims other than proof or payment for nothing specific? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 8 hours ago, ri Alban said: Is Cohen not a convicted Liar. Why would anyone believe him. Cohen has pled guilty to lying to Congress when he told them Trump did nothing wrong. That's the irony. 2 hours ago, hughesie27 said: So Cohen has no real evidence of what he claims other than proof or payment for nothing specific? Sworn testimony is evidence. As for material evidence, most of his documents are in the hands of the FBI (which prompted one GOP goof to demand that they "be seized by law enforcement"). But Cohen's testimony has never been the endgame. He just provided a map for the Committee to investigate (AOC absolutely owned her question period on this). The Senate will never impeach Trump or even mildly censure him based solely on Cohen's testimony. He just told them where to look next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 3 hours ago, Ugly American said: Cohen has pled guilty to lying to Congress when he told them Trump did nothing wrong. That's the irony. Sworn testimony is evidence. As for material evidence, most of his documents are in the hands of the FBI (which prompted one GOP goof to demand that they "be seized by law enforcement"). But Cohen's testimony has never been the endgame. He just provided a map for the Committee to investigate (AOC absolutely owned her question period on this). The Senate will never impeach Trump or even mildly censure him based solely on Cohen's testimony. He just told them where to look next. I was just playing devil's advocate, bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 1 minute ago, ri Alban said: I was just playing devil's advocate, bud. Sorry, not been sleeping much. Should have know better looking at the handle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Ugly American said: Sorry, not been sleeping much. Should have know better looking at the handle... UA, what do really think will happen? Will this be swept under the carpet to save American democracy or will they use the full force of the law. Edited February 28, 2019 by ri Alban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Nice exposition on why the testimony was useful:The Cohen of Silence Breaks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamhammer Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 They'll forgive Trump for being a racist, misogynist, liar and idiot. If there's any proof at all that the Russians have assisted him he'll be out on his arse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Meanwhile in Vietnam the Trump, Kim talks have collapsed with no agreement reached. I wonder if that will affect Trump being awarded the Nobel Prize he wants so badly. He will probably have to settle for the Fiction author of the year instead. This culmination is exactly what has happened to all previous Presidents who tried to deal with North Korea, but at least they didn't have to come back to possible impeachment, or even indictment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 The Hanoi summit ended early, with no deal, and before a scheduled lunch. My sources tell me that the reason Trump walked out was because he had heard that lunch was to be foie gras and snow fish. Trump was last seen at the drive-thru window of the local MacDonald's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 8 hours ago, ri Alban said: UA, what do really think will happen? Will this be swept under the carpet to save American democracy or will they use the full force of the law. The main thing I think is that, much like with Brexit, absolutely nobody knows exactly what will happen and those confidently predicting one result or the other are grounded on wet silt. The Mueller office has been extraordinary in its leak-proof operation, under the fiercest of glares. What we've all woken up to in the last few months is that the SDNY AG office has been churning away quietly as well. I think I said a few years ago about this time that the kicker is effectively, as long as Trump has an 80% approval rating among registered Republicans, the chances of actual impeachment are low. GOP Senators whom I've generally disliked on policy but I thought had integrity have rolled over for him for fear of losing in their next primary. If Trump weren't protected by that GOP firewall, there's already plenty of public record that he's done misdeeds far worse than lying about having a cute young intern under a desk, and if the Democrats thought for a second it had a chance of passing, they'd impeach him this afternoon for the emergency declaration alone. So basically Mueller or SDNY or Cummings' committee have to get something that shocks the conscience so much that more GOP voters start abandoning him or that actually stirs some remnant of civic responsibility in Republican Senators. Economists are saying a recession may be on the way next year, which I imagine secondary shocks from a possible no deal Brexit won't help either. Trump has been unusually unpopular even in a strong economy. If the economy goes south, the 100-year flood electoral wave that didn't quite arrive last year might actually hit. But how much permanent damage will already be done by then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 17 minutes ago, Ugly American said: The main thing I think is that, much like with Brexit, absolutely nobody knows exactly what will happen and those confidently predicting one result or the other are grounded on wet silt. The Mueller office has been extraordinary in its leak-proof operation, under the fiercest of glares. What we've all woken up to in the last few months is that the SDNY AG office has been churning away quietly as well. I think I said a few years ago about this time that the kicker is effectively, as long as Trump has an 80% approval rating among registered Republicans, the chances of actual impeachment are low. GOP Senators whom I've generally disliked on policy but I thought had integrity have rolled over for him for fear of losing in their next primary. If Trump weren't protected by that GOP firewall, there's already plenty of public record that he's done misdeeds far worse than lying about having a cute young intern under a desk, and if the Democrats thought for a second it had a chance of passing, they'd impeach him this afternoon for the emergency declaration alone. So basically Mueller or SDNY or Cummings' committee have to get something that shocks the conscience so much that more GOP voters start abandoning him or that actually stirs some remnant of civic responsibility in Republican Senators. Economists are saying a recession may be on the way next year, which I imagine secondary shocks from a possible no deal Brexit won't help either. Trump has been unusually unpopular even in a strong economy. If the economy goes south, the 100-year flood electoral wave that didn't quite arrive last year might actually hit. But how much permanent damage will already be done by then? Thanks ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Yesterday: Republican committee members literally waving signs and sing-songing grade school taunts about lying to Congress in the middle of a hearing. Today: Oliver North addressing CPAC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 The thing is, over the past three years there have been many occasions when we thought, "He can't survive this news", yet he does. And there is no doubt in my mind that he's survive the Cohen testimony too. It astonishes me how this real estate conman has taken the Republican Party by the throat and has everyone in it dancing to his tune. A man with zero political experience has turned the lifelong politicians in the GOP into jellyfish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 13 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said: The thing is, over the past three years there have been many occasions when we thought, "He can't survive this news", yet he does. And there is no doubt in my mind that he's survive the Cohen testimony too. It astonishes me how this real estate conman has taken the Republican Party by the throat and has everyone in it dancing to his tune. A man with zero political experience has turned the lifelong politicians in the GOP into jellyfish. Indeed. The emperor has no clothes but no-one wants to admit it because of the embarrassment it will cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 13 minutes ago, Barack said: I want to hear more about this Matthew Calamari fellow. Sounds fishy to me. Slippery character I've heard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Barack said: Made a few squid, working for Teflon Don, I've heard. Probably have to end up eating humble octopi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said: The thing is, over the past three years there have been many occasions when we thought, "He can't survive this news", yet he does. And there is no doubt in my mind that he's survive the Cohen testimony too. It astonishes me how this real estate conman has taken the Republican Party by the throat and has everyone in it dancing to his tune. A man with zero political experience has turned the lifelong politicians in the GOP into jellyfish. He's toast and he knows it. I said at the time the whole Stormy Daniels thing would be his downfall, say what you like about Avenatti but he caused Cohen to become important. That was o.k when Cohen would take a bullet for Trump but now he has turned, and the Southern District of New York will run with everything they can get. The greatest deal maker ever is going to be scrambling for deals with the prosecution to save he and his family, and the first thing required will be a resignation by Trump, and I see that being sooner than later. His Republican allies will jump ship as soon as it is obviously sinking, and he will be justufied in using his mafia speak when referring to them as rats abandoning ship to save themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Russia and China go against USA regarding Venezuela. Kim does not accept Trumps deal. Cohen gives evidence to three commitees,all about Trump .A Trump supporter Gaetz has had to apologise for what has been described as a threatening tweet. He is now under investigation for breach of ethics, and may be accused after contacting Cohen personally with interfering with a witness. Republicans want Cohen charged with perjury because he stated at the hearing he didn't want a job in the White House,total desperation, the man is characterised by all as a liar, he is a sentenced liar, and is going to jail for being a liar, yet these politicians seem to think they will erase his evidence about their President by having him charged with being a liar. When it comes down to the most believable claims, anyone who has watched and listened to Trump know he is a liar, his disposition, history and actions and even rhetoric would indicate he is either a gangster, or an admirer of gangsters and a gangster wannabe. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, the bell tolls for thee....Donald. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Lifting of sanctions doesn't seem too much to ask for, in return for denuclearisation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Lifting of sanctions doesn't seem too much to ask for, in return for denuclearisation. Indeed, but the question is: which should come first? The North Koreans want the lifting of sanctions first, the Americans I imagine want the latter. Of course reality would suggest that both are done in stages and concurrently, and/or the whole process is accelerated and the Americans give the North Koreans a cast-iron guarantee that all sanctions will be lifted when the last nuke, and processing facility, is decommissioned beyond repair. The Chinese could offer a hand in guaranteeing North Korea protection against invasion from outside (which is probably the principal reason for the nukes anyway). These are the sorts of things that keep negotiators busy. Trust plays very little role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 15 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Lifting of sanctions doesn't seem too much to ask for, in return for denuclearisation. I believe that the sticking point is that Kim and the World's-Best-Deal-Maker can't agree on the definition of 'denuclearisation'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, redjambo said: Indeed, but the question is: which should come first? The North Koreans want the lifting of sanctions first, the Americans I imagine want the latter. Of course reality would suggest that both are done in stages and concurrently, and/or the whole process is accelerated and the Americans give the North Koreans a cast-iron guarantee that all sanctions will be lifted when the last nuke, and processing facility, is decommissioned beyond repair. The Chinese could offer a hand in guaranteeing North Korea protection against invasion from outside (which is probably the principal reason for the nukes anyway). These are the sorts of things that keep negotiators busy. Trust plays very little role. Would it not take years to fully denuke. Maybe the sanctions could be lifted first 'a show of good will' and if NK don't do it, they then reactivate sanctions and then some. 13 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said: I believe that the sticking point is that Kim and the World's-Best-Deal-Maker can't agree on the definition of 'denuclearisation'. Does this include power stations? Edited February 28, 2019 by ri Alban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Would it not take years to fully denuke. Maybe the sanctions could be lifted first 'a show of good will' and if NK don't do it, they then reactivate sanctions and then some. Does this include power stations? 1). You'd think that the guy who boasts about his deal-making skills would figure something out. 2). I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 9 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Would it not take years to fully denuke. Maybe the sanctions could be lifted first 'a show of good will' and if NK don't do it, they then reactivate sanctions and then some. A possibility. What if the lifting of sanctions allows the North Koreans to import technology or funds to secretly advance their nuclear capability though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, redjambo said: A possibility. What if the lifting of sanctions allows the North Koreans to import technology or funds to secretly advance their nuclear capability though? Down to trust, I suppose. Obviously there's still a long way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 13 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Down to trust, I suppose. Obviously there's still a long way to go. That's the problem. Neither side trusts the other at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 The odiousness of Dump stating he believes Kim on Otto Warmbier was quite nauseating and an insult to the deceased's family. With the next breath he states Capo Cohen's a liar but latches onto some titbit about collusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Trump is a laughing stock. The man has the negotiating abilities of a golden retriever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Trump ordered that top-security clearance be given to Jared Kushner despite the concerns of intelligence services and White House counsel about Kushner. Trump lied to the New York Times in January to say that he had nothing to do with Kushner being given clearance. New York Times: Trump Ordered Officials to Give Jared Kushner a Security Clearance He's not much good at minding national security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 7 hours ago, ri Alban said: Does this include power stations? Generally not. Weapons grade material and power-grade material are (believe it or not) two entirely different animals. In order to get weapons grade from power grade you need a shitload of centrifuges and a whole bunch of processing facilities (unless you are running breeder reactors, which I have no idea if NK are or not). This is one of the main points with the Iran deal. They dismantle about 99% of their centrifuges which leaves them the option for power, without risk of weapons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 2 hours ago, trotter said: Generally not. Weapons grade material and power-grade material are (believe it or not) two entirely different animals. In order to get weapons grade from power grade you need a shitload of centrifuges and a whole bunch of processing facilities (unless you are running breeder reactors, which I have no idea if NK are or not). This is one of the main points with the Iran deal. They dismantle about 99% of their centrifuges which leaves them the option for power, without risk of weapons Cheers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 4 hours ago, trotter said: Generally not. Weapons grade material and power-grade material are (believe it or not) two entirely different animals. In order to get weapons grade from power grade you need a shitload of centrifuges and a whole bunch of processing facilities (unless you are running breeder reactors, which I have no idea if NK are or not). This is one of the main points with the Iran deal. They dismantle about 99% of their centrifuges which leaves them the option for power, without risk of weapons I didn't know that they were such different beasties. Thanks trotter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 1 hour ago, redjambo said: I didn't know that they were such different beasties. Thanks trotter. it is to do with the percentage of fissile material. for power generation it is a low percent (iirc 15-20%) but for weapons you use 90-95% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 42 minutes ago, milky_26 said: it is to do with the percentage of fissile material. for power generation it is a low percent (iirc 15-20%) but for weapons you use 90-95% So for missile you need fissile. I'll remember that now. :) Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, redjambo said: So for missile you need fissile. I'll remember that now. Cheers. Or as Notorious B.I.G. never put it, "Mo' fissile, mo' missile" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 This is early doors stuff but the Democrats in the House are slowly lining up the necessaries for the long slog to impeachment, while definitely not committing to impeachment yet. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/03/04/democrats-are-set-take-big-step-towards-impeaching-trump/ Quote The Watergate precedent is instructive. There were many months of congressional hearings into Richard Nixon’s myriad abuses well before a formal impeachment inquiry was launched. “Congress brought key players to the public to talk about not only the break-in but all the other abuses of power in the Nixon White House,” historian Julian Zelizer, the co-author of the book “Fault Lines,” told me. In so doing, Zelizer noted, Congress “set that up” as the foundation for the official vote to launch formal impeachment hearings in 1974. “I think that’s what Nadler is doing right now,” Zelizer said. “I don’t know if he will ultimately trigger the impeachment investigation. But this is what comes first. Congress has to create the political conditions to move forward. Nadler is looking into multiple parts of the story and trying to bring them together.” Listen carefully to Nadler, and you’ll see he confirmed this — to a point. He said that before moving forward with impeachment, Americans must believe it’s merited — i.e., he’s building a public case. But he also said an unspecified percentage of “opposition party voters” must be persuaded that this isn’t merely an effort to nullify the election. The Mueller investigation has been key in turning over stones and getting indictments and either convictions or guilty pleas for major players. But it very much looks like he's going to stop before getting to the Oval Office. The House, on the other hand, has no such restrictions on their investigations, except of course political ones. Nadler and everyone else know that impeachment is pointless if the GOP Senators don't break ranks. That's basically going to be a public process, with Fox News and related outlets fighting this the whole way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 The crazy liar is now at 46% approval. Scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Gordons Gloves Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 20 minutes ago, JackLadd said: The crazy liar is now at 46% approval. Scary. I've been saying for a while that until gas prices start to rocket, his approval will remain pretty steady in the 40-s to 50s. I padi $2.21 a gallon this morning and it hasn't been above $2.75 a gallon for months now. Compare that to during Obama's terms, gas fluctuated pretty wildly, we paid $4 a gallon at some points and less than $2 at others. I appreciate that gas prices are determined by a number of factors but it's a big influencer on people's views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Craig Gordons Gloves said: I've been saying for a while that until gas prices start to rocket, his approval will remain pretty steady in the 40-s to 50s. I padi $2.21 a gallon this morning and it hasn't been above $2.75 a gallon for months now. Compare that to during Obama's terms, gas fluctuated pretty wildly, we paid $4 a gallon at some points and less than $2 at others. I appreciate that gas prices are determined by a number of factors but it's a big influencer on people's views. As we know the tweeter is in bed with the House of Saud and got them to up production last year when he planned to re-sanction Iran, but it coincided with a drop in global demand and price drop. They intend cutting production this year. ps He's never been over 50% approval. Edited March 5, 2019 by JackLadd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 His profanity-laden speech at CPAC was a thing to behold. His cheering fans fed his ego, leading him to go more and more over the top. And to think that Republicans used to go ape about Obama being unpresidential because his clothes were not appropriate, in their opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 I wonder how the national emergency on the Mexico border is going? Have the hordes of murderers, rapists, human traffickers, and drug dealers started pouring over the border yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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