U.S. Politics megathread (merged)

[RobboM]

8 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

Looks like Trump is going to run for President again in a last ditch bid to escape prosecution. Imagine how low he would go if his freedom were on the line.

 

Personally I don't doubt for a moment this character, if he could and it was the only way out for him, would trigger a full blown civil war.

 

 

 

Listening to an Amercian news podcast they suggested that Trump's popularity amongst Republican voters has dropped from 90% to 60% during the course of these hearings on the subject of him standing again. So long as he keeps the question of re-running ambiguous the Republican party remains in thrall to him and have to visit Mar a Lago to kiss his ring .... in every sense

[JFK-1]

12 hours ago, RobboM said:

Listening to an Amercian news podcast they suggested that Trump's popularity amongst Republican voters has dropped from 90% to 60% during the course of these hearings on the subject of him standing again. So long as he keeps the question of re-running ambiguous the Republican party remains in thrall to him and have to visit Mar a Lago to kiss his ring .... in every sense

 

Initially I thought he had no intention of running, he's a mental case. Can't lose and remain even just as crazy as he is. And he could lose, while pulling the same stunt all over again, 'stolen election', is a stretch.

 

But while doing that he could just keep getting the idiots to send their money to a guy who wangled a minimum hundreds of millions for himself and his family out of being in office.

 

But now it looks as if he will to simply use the office as a shield against prosecution. He would do anything to avoid jail. Even if he's losing a presidential run the new lie will be all this investigation is just fake news, political witch hunt.

 

Completely ignoring the fact we all saw the assault on the Capitol he instigated. We all know the background maneuvering to steal an election.

 

If he did win an election Merrick Garland at the DOJ would immediately be fired, some crazy put in his place, and all investigation would stop. Permanently.

[JFK-1]

A closer look at Donald Trump reportedly planning to run for president again as a way to protect himself from a possible criminal indictment related to the attempted coup on January 6.

 

 

[JFK-1]

“Women Are Going to Die”: A Late-Abortion Doctor on the Dangers of Post-Roe America

 

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/07/warren-hern-boulder-late-abortion-doctor-interview-post-roe/

[JFK-1]

Nominally the final report, but probably not.

 

It's live as I post this. They're nailing Trump for everything.

 

 

 

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Very likely Biden won't be the Democratic nominee in 2024, unless he can execute a miraculous turnaround.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/07/21/biden-decline-democrats/

 

Comparisons to Trump are absurd, of course—Biden is merely a garden variety below-average President at this point. Trump was the worst and most dangerous President in US history and no one else comes close.

 

Interestingly, though, Biden's unpopularity doesn't seem to be bleeding over to other Democrats, who are looking surprisingly strong in Senate races, and might have an outside chance of keeping the House. If that happened and Biden were actually able to pass a lot of his agenda, the verdict on him could change a lot.

[JFK-1]

The shit the committee are throwing out right now, at this very moment, is absolutely damning. They actually did keep some of the best till last. I can see no way out of prosecution for him. Bar getting into office and closing everything down. Another coup.

[Maple Leaf]

1 hour ago, JFK-1 said:

The shit the committee are throwing out right now, at this very moment, is absolutely damning. They actually did keep some of the best till last. I can see no way out of prosecution for him. Bar getting into office and closing everything down. Another coup.

 

It was completely damning.  Liz Chaney is correct ... the psycho is not fit to hold any kind of elected office again.

But we'll see.  

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

33 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

It was completely damning.  Liz Chaney is correct ... the psycho is not fit to hold any kind of elected office again.

But we'll see.  

He was never fit to hold office. However, the problem is that to his acolytes this will appear as a Beltway kangaroo court and Trump will strengthen in his supporter's eyes.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

On a lighter note, a Twitter thread regarding Josh Hawley, who incited the crowd with a fist-pump but then was later filmed running through the Senate like a Rangers fan who'd seen a bar of soap.

 

 

[Mysterion]

9 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

Very likely Biden won't be the Democratic nominee in 2024, unless he can execute a miraculous turnaround.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/07/21/biden-decline-democrats/

 

Biden struggles through his own mistakes and an aggressively negative press. 

 

It's easy to overlook that whilst he has been president a lot of positive things have come about. Putting aside all his gaffs and negative press I think it's important to remember that the direction of government comes from the top. I think Biden's PR will always take away the positive things done. With all that said - I do think he will step down at some point in the next 12months to allow adequate preparation for Harris to pick up the job.

 

Here is a tweet that demonstrates the positive achievements that are easily forgotten. 

Also add that Mexico have agreed to pay $1.5 bill towards border infrastructure. Trump got nothing but the awful guy now managed to do it... 🤷‍♂️

 

Restarting US Microchip fabrication is huge - much bigger than people realise too IMO. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maple Leaf]

4 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

Biden struggles through his own mistakes and an aggressively negative press. 

 

It's easy to overlook that whilst he has been president a lot of positive things have come about. Putting aside all his gaffs and negative press I think it's important to remember that the direction of government comes from the top. I think Biden's PR will always take away the positive things done. With all that said - I do think he will step down at some point in the next 12months to allow adequate preparation for Harris to pick up the job.

 

Here is a tweet that demonstrates the positive achievements that are easily forgotten. 

Also add that Mexico have agreed to pay $1.5 bill towards border infrastructure. Trump got nothing but the awful guy now managed to do it... 🤷‍♂️

 

Restarting US Microchip fabrication is huge - much bigger than people realise too IMO. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

None of that stuff matters to the cult.  It's all just facts.

 

Doncha know Biden is old, has dementia, stumbles over his words, fell off his bike, and stole the election?

[RobboM]

Lock him up!
Lock him up!

Bannon guilty of Contempt of Congress
 

 

[Maple Leaf]

14 minutes ago, RobboM said:

Lock him up!
Lock him up!

Bannon guilty of Contempt of Congress
 

 

 

This will take forever to work its way through court, then as soon as there's a Republican in the White House he will be pardoned.  It's the American way now.

[JFK-1]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

This will take forever to work its way through court, then as soon as there's a Republican in the White House he will be pardoned.  It's the American way now.

 

The sentence is expected to be 2 years. That's two years he will have to serve in jail because there is no chance of any pardon till the next election in over 2 years. And Bannon wouldn't care that he may eventually be pardoned, he doesn't care about the felony conviction.

 

Bannon, like Trump is a total shite bag at heart, he will crumble facing 2 years in jail. Boohoo.

[JFK-1]

Trump outtakes I haven't seen before. Yesterday is a hard word, well come on, it's a whole 3 syllables.

 

 

[RobboM]

37 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

Trump outtakes I haven't seen before. Yesterday is a hard word, well come on, it's a whole 3 syllables.

 

 

I watched that earlier today and you can't help feeling Trump would have benefited from a good hard kick in the baws ...... and then another half dozen for good measure 😂

[Unknown user]

12 minutes ago, RobboM said:

I watched that earlier today and you can't help feeling Trump would have benefited from a good hard kick in the baws ...... and then another half dozen for good measure 😂

You know, I've been enjoying your posts recently.

[RobboM]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

You know, I've been enjoying your posts recently.

It's a golden age for us grumpy old men these days 😂

[JFK-1]

Looks like maybe the Secret Service director James Murray may join the growing list of the soon to be jailed. The committee requested thousands of secret service text messages from Jan 6th. Out of thousands from that day they got one of any relevance.

 

That's because despite being told three times to save these messages this guy deleted them, thousands of them. What is it that encourages these people to throw their lot in with an obvious low IQ psycho who is known for having absolutely zero loyalty to anybody.

 

Now he's going to have to explain it to the committee. How/why despite three separate orders from on high instructing the texts be saved, he still deleted them. I think we already know why, and so do the committee.

 

 

[JFK-1]

The way I see this now Trump has to go to jail. They have demonstrated beyond doubt he knew the big lie was a lie. They all knew it. The only way to deny he knew it now is effectively to say okay he's officially crazy. Like that guy who thinks he's Napoleon. Basket case stuff.

 

But that wont work for Trump. From "very stable genius" to basket case? His ego couldn't take that. He is crazy to some degree, or do we sometimes confuse sheer malevolence we ourselves simply can't comprehend for insanity?

 

Okay if he's crazy it's the padded cell if not it's the jail cell. It has to be one or the other. Because if that doesn't happen now this country is finished both as a functional democracy and as an international actor of any credibility/respectability.

 

Except from maybe China/Russia. One doesn't like elections at all, Trump would understand that, you might lose. And the other just throws sham elections. Exactly what Trump tried to make this election.

 

There is no doubt this creature isn't fit to be a public figure on any level far less leader of a nation. Incidentally to me that was always obvious, and i'm sure to many of you too.

 

All that's left out there now is the Republican element still pushing the big lie and beyond them that includes the likes of Fox, Breitbart etc.

 

But they all know it's a lie. The whole world knows it's a lie, and the whole world knows they know we know that they know it's a lie. But they still proceed.

 

Beyond them you have what we might call the Trump cultists. Now I expect a fair number of that element to be complete 100% wacko. Believe anything Trump says. They're not rare, I have seen the like on this very forum. On this very thread believing the unbelievable.

 

How many of that cult know it's a lie, but still just like the Republicans and Fox just proceed with it anyway? Despite the horrific ramifications.

 

This shit isn't just an American issue it's a global issue and even more pertinently a Western issue. A functioning democratic rational US is vital to not just the West but the entire world order. A world order that's already in turmoil and doubtless more to come from China if not Russia.

 

If Trump isn't jailed the US is finished and so ultimately is NATO and any US assistance in facing down Russia for just one. No one could trust them in the same way we don't trust Russia.

 

We know Russia will spout utter shite. We know they know it's utter shite, they know we know that, but they don't care. See a pattern here? The US would be in the same category. You could never organise anything long term with a regime who can pull out a conspiracy theory to wreck it all at any time.

 

That's just one of the things that's at stake here if he isn't taken down. And I bet right now there are still some around on this very forum who would support Trump into another presidency when he really would mount a long planned coup.

 

The Jan 6th coup attempt was fitting for the likes of Trump, scatter brained and idiotic. But it could still have come off. All tehy had to do, to my knowledge, was prevent the election result being certified by congress that night.

 

With hindsight i'm now at least a little surprised that part of it didn't come off. It could so easily have worked. And if they don't jail Trump now well it's stating he did nothing wrong. So why wouldn't he, or somebody else, do it again? Right away, in 2024. If they don't jail him the entire world is in peril and so is the US.

 

You have to wonder if some of these weirdos who slaver over Trump even have the capacity to see all that.

 

That even if you live in Scotland this will affect you and yours lives big time when Moscow and Beijing come knocking on the door. And enforcing their idea of an ordered society. Try spreading your conspiracy shite then. They don't care about your opinion.

 

Actually I take that back, I know many of them don't have the capacity to see that. Nor even the capacity to understand it when it's described to them.

[JFK-1]

Don't know how that happened, double post.

Edited July 23, 2022 by JFK-1

[JFK-1]

This video pretty much nails the sheer insanity of this situation I was previously trying to touch on. And you know, I think there's still even more startling details to come before this is over.

 

 

[Maple Leaf]

3 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

The way I see this now Trump has to go to jail. They have demonstrated beyond doubt he knew the big lie was a lie. They all knew it. The only way to deny he knew it now is effectively to say okay he's officially crazy. Like that guy who thinks he's Napoleon. Basket case stuff.

 

But that wont work for Trump. From "very stable genius" to basket case? His ego couldn't take that. He is crazy to some degree, or do we sometimes confuse sheer malevolence we ourselves simply can't comprehend for insanity?

 

Okay if he's crazy it's the padded cell if not it's the jail cell. It has to be one or the other. Because if that doesn't happen now this country is finished both as a functional democracy and as an international actor of any credibility/respectability.

 

Except from maybe China/Russia. One doesn't like elections at all, Trump would understand that, you might lose. And the other just throws sham elections. Exactly what Trump tried to make this election.

 

There is no doubt this creature isn't fit to be a public figure on any level far less leader of a nation. Incidentally to me that was always obvious, and i'm sure to many of you too.

 

All that's left out there now is the Republican element still pushing the big lie and beyond them that includes the likes of Fox, Breitbart etc.

 

But they all know it's a lie. The whole world knows it's a lie, and the whole world knows they know we know that they know it's a lie. But they still proceed.

 

Beyond them you have what we might call the Trump cultists. Now I expect a fair number of that element to be complete 100% wacko. Believe anything Trump says. They're not rare, I have seen the like on this very forum. On this very thread believing the unbelievable.

 

How many of that cult know it's a lie, but still just like the Republicans and Fox just proceed with it anyway? Despite the horrific ramifications.

 

This shit isn't just an American issue it's a global issue and even more pertinently a Western issue. A functioning democratic rational US is vital to not just the West but the entire world order. A world order that's already in turmoil and doubtless more to come from China if not Russia.

 

If Trump isn't jailed the US is finished and so ultimately is NATO and any US assistance in facing down Russia for just one. No one could trust them in the same way we don't trust Russia.

 

We know Russia will spout utter shite. We know they know it's utter shite, they know we know that, but they don't care. See a pattern here? The US would be in the same category. You could never organise anything long term with a regime who can pull out a conspiracy theory to wreck it all at any time.

 

That's just one of the things that's at stake here if he isn't taken down. And I bet right now there are still some around on this very forum who would support Trump into another presidency when he really would mount a long planned coup.

 

The Jan 6th coup attempt was fitting for the likes of Trump, scatter brained and idiotic. But it could still have come off. All tehy had to do, to my knowledge, was prevent the election result being certified by congress that night.

 

With hindsight i'm now at least a little surprised that part of it didn't come off. It could so easily have worked. And if they don't jail Trump now well it's stating he did nothing wrong. So why wouldn't he, or somebody else, do it again? Right away, in 2024. If they don't jail him the entire world is in peril and so is the US.

 

You have to wonder if some of these weirdos who slaver over Trump even have the capacity to see all that.

 

That even if you live in Scotland this will affect you and yours lives big time when Moscow and Beijing come knocking on the door. And enforcing their idea of an ordered society. Try spreading your conspiracy shite then. They don't care about your opinion.

 

Actually I take that back, I know many of them don't have the capacity to see that. Nor even the capacity to understand it when it's described to them.

 

Trump is a depraved psycho.  Nothing matters to him but his own ego.  His oath of office means nothing to him, the Constitution means nothing to him. Being President gave him power and prestige and he'll do anything to get it back. Then it will be payback time on any and all who spoke out against him.

 

This is a shameful period in American history and all the GOP people in Congress who have stood by him and repeated his inane lies will go down in history as self-serving cowards who violated their oaths of office. Does anyone believe that the Republicans will ever again accept any Presidential election result that doesn't favour them?  

 

As you point out, if he ever gets back into the Oval Office it won't be just the USA that's screwed.  Unless the American legal system stops this maniac, and I don't think they will, the West will be entering a dark era, with unpredictable results.  Right wing populist nut jobs in other countries, including Canada, have been watching the USA and seeing a path to power for themselves.

[JFK-1]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Trump is a depraved psycho.  Nothing matters to him but his own ego.  His oath of office means nothing to him, the Constitution means nothing to him. Being President gave him power and prestige and he'll do anything to get it back. Then it will be payback time on any and all who spoke out against him.

 

This is a shameful period in American history and all the GOP people in Congress who have stood by him and repeated his inane lies will go down in history as self-serving cowards who violated their oaths of office. Does anyone believe that the Republicans will ever again accept any Presidential election result that doesn't favour them?  

 

As you point out, if he ever gets back into the Oval Office it won't be just the USA that's screwed.  Unless the American legal system stops this maniac, and I don't think they will, the West will be entering a dark era, with unpredictable results.  Right wing populist nut jobs in other countries, including Canada, have been watching the USA and seeing a path to power for themselves.

 

Psycho is probably a frequently used word, and often not appropriate or applicable. But in this case you're right, this is obviously a total psycho. When Trump was told the crowd was chanting hang Mike Pence he responded "Mike Pence let me down, he deserves it" And he pretty much tweeted that.

 

Trump actually wanted Pence to be murdered by the mob, this was the last ditch attempt to pull off the coup. Over 60 cases of alleged voter fraud they prevented to Trump appointed judges were thrown out as "totally baseless" Every last one of them.

 

He had attempted to put a stooge in as attorney general. Someone who was an environmental lawyer, had never tried a criminal case in his life, was in the words of all who described him a complete non entity.

 

A non entity Trump wanted to put in charge of the DOJ and be responsible for co-ordinating the work of 150,000 DOJ employees across multiple legal fields some concerning national security.

 

But a non entity who was willing to say, as head of the DOJ, attorney general no less, that the election was suspect and should be investigated. Following which Trump said he "and the Republican senators would take it from there"

Fake electoral college slates were created to be delivered to Pence, I can't remember why he didn't get them or didn't look at them. And much more but everything had failed. This was the crunch moment. And Trump went, as you say, total psycho.

 

I will try to give him credit for not wanting Pence murdered as a first option. The intention may have been simply that the mob create such havoc it's impossible for the procedure to be carried out that day.

 

But when this hang Mike Pence thing came out including a gallows, it's been grasped as a great option. The mob aren't certain to prevent the verification before midnight. But it's definitely wont happen if the VP has been murdered.

 

One step in the coup completed, next day Trump is still President, there's a constitutional crisis, nobody knows what to do because whoever thought of the VP being murdered during this largely ceremonial but constitutionally necessary process?

 

Doubt anybody ever thought of how to deal with that. Until Trump did. And the way to deal with it is declaring martial law which he would have done in a heartbeat.

 

If they had murdered Mike Pence, which I don't doubt for a moment they would have with serious assault at a bare minimum. If that had happened the mob would have then been likely to murder anything they came across.

 

This psycho knowingly and willingly unleashed that, on a man who had been a colleague of his throughout that clown car of an administration. He wanted him murdered and to this day Trump wishes he had been murdered that day.

 

Because if he had been murdered as Trump wished, who knows what may have evolved from it. He's now full out Putin like psycho. As we know, Putin will whack those who have "let him down" in a heartbeat.

 

What is wrong with these people? Look at Pence, this isn't a stupid guy, a crazy like Trump, he knows Trump actually tried to murder him and maybe even his family too. Who were also in the building. Is that just politics in the US? You know for a fact someone in your own admin tried to kill you, and you just act like it never happened? WTF? That's bizarre anywhere.

 

Pence was a major driver in completing this procedure as quickly as possible. Constantly questioning when the building would be clear to get this dine tonight. Because he was shitting himself at the thought of Trump pulling off a coup after trying to have him murdered. 

 

And now? Well, it's lala land. An indication of what a train wreck this country is. 

[Riccarton3]

Heard one of his supporters on Newsnight say the emotion needs to be removed from the proceedings and focus should be what good policies he brought in.

 

It's enough for many Republicans that the legal system can be used to argue there ain't enough there despite the grossness of it all. They meet that with glib and obtuse replies you'd expect.

 

 

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

13 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

This will take forever to work its way through court, then as soon as there's a Republican in the White House he will be pardoned.  It's the American way now.

 

Eric Holder and Lois Lerner?

[JFK-1]

5 hours ago, Riccarton3 said:

Heard one of his supporters on Newsnight say the emotion needs to be removed from the proceedings and focus should be what good policies he brought in.

 

Like what? What memorable policy did Trump introduce that was of memorable benefit to the nation? Offsetting the catastrophe his administration was from day one? And still is.

 

Was it getting all thixe extremist judges on teh supreme court? The majority of the nation isn't enjoying that. And some them, women will die because of it. And many more of all ages and genders will die because of it.

 

Shot to death by assault rifle. Coming to your school, church, supermarket soon.  Courtesy of Trump and his SP judges.

 

Emotion? It was an attempted coup facilitated by countless criminal acts to the final stage. Where people were seriously injured and others died. Where there was an intention to murder the VP. What's to be expected? Pretend it was a jolly tourist day out gone wrong?

[Maple Leaf]

4 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Eric Holder and Lois Lerner?

Without getting into the weeds on the Eric Holder matter, if the point you're making is that  Democrat Presidents also pardon people, I don't disagree.  As I said, it's the American way now. 

[Unknown user]

4 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Eric Holder and Lois Lerner?

Out of interest, you offered frequent support, are you still a Trumpet?

[Seymour M Hersh]

38 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

Without getting into the weeds on the Eric Holder matter, if the point you're making is that  Democrat Presidents also pardon people, I don't disagree.  As I said, it's the American way now. 

 

They weren't pardoned they were both accused of the same charge Bannon is, contempt of congress but neither went to trial. Holder was AG and was accused of gun running in Mexico, Lerner an IRS executive of targeting Republicans for audit. Holder claimed executive privilege and even although a judge said it didn't apply in his case still avoided a trial. Lerner pleaded the fifth. Oh and one the subject of the show trial (which is the only thing you can call it) are you not even slightly concerned that not cross examination of witnesses is not being allowed. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Seymour M Hersh

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

They weren't pardoned they were both accused of the same charge Bannon is, contempt of congress but neither went to trial. Holder was AG and was accused of gun running in Mexico, Lerner an IRS executive of targeting Republicans for audit. Holder claimed executive privilege and even although a judge said it didn't apply in his case still avoided a trial. Lerner pleaded the fifth. Oh and one the subject of the show trial (which is the only thing you can call it) are you not even slightly concerned that not cross examination of witnesses is not being allowed. 

 

So still a Trumpet.

[Maple Leaf]

5 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

... are you not even slightly concerned that not cross examination of witnesses is not being allowed. 

 

You'll have to help me here.  I have no idea what that sentence means.  Too many 'not' maybe?

[Seymour M Hersh]

12 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

You'll have to help me here.  I have no idea what that sentence means.  Too many 'not' maybe?

 

I think you know exactly what I was getting at. But to clarify are you not in the least concerned that cross examination is not being allowed? 

[Maple Leaf]

8 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I think you know exactly what I was getting at. But to clarify are you not in the least concerned that cross examination is not being allowed? 

I rarely know what you're getting at.

No, I wasn't aware of it, therefore I wasn't in the least concerned.

[Seymour M Hersh]

21 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

I rarely know what you're getting at.

No, I wasn't aware of it, therefore I wasn't in the least concerned.

 

There are none so blind as those who will not see. 

[JFK-1]

Jan. 6 panel prepared to consider subpoena for Ginni Thomas, “We hope she'll agree to come in voluntarily," Rep. Liz Cheney said.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/24/cheney-jan-6-subpoena-ginni-thomas-00047593

[JFK-1]

Incredible statement from Cheney. Among other things it touches on the bizarre nature of this situation. Trump launched a mob at the Capitol, for over 3 hours he sat watching it on Fox, doing nothing.

 

Doing nothing while crazy Fox hosts themselves were sending texts pleading for him to do something. Everybody including his own family were pleading with him to do something. Even just say something.

 

When he eventually told them to go home "we love you, you're very special" it was only because by this time it had become clear the attempt to prevent the election being certified was going to fail. Prior to that why would he say anything to stop it? This is what he planned and so much more. And he is still supported by Republicans who privately are shocked. Publicly nothing to see here, fake news. And that's despite the fact the Republican leadership don't support Trump.

 

Her disdain for Trump supporting Republicans who are trying to prevent her being re-elected is classic. And i would say even noble in a way.

 

Given that Trump aside, hell she would litter a nation with guns too.

 

 

 

 

 

[Cade]

If they get away with this, the next time will be for keeps.

 

It's really that simple.

[Maple Leaf]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

If they get away with this, the next time will be for keeps.

 

It's really that simple.

 

That's right.  The Republicans have learned lessons from the 2020 election and its aftermath.  They've learned that controlling the Electoral College is the key to victory, not what happens on election night.  If Republican legislatures in swing states appoint Republican electors, they win the state regardless of how the people voted.

 

It seems likely that Trump will run again in 2024, and he will stand a good chance of winning.  Just imagine what another Trump term will be like.  

[Mysterion]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

If they get away with this, the next time will be for keeps.

 

It's really that simple.

 

The lasting impact of January 6th will take decades to resolve. 

GOP activists have spent the last 2yrs trying to replace people who monitor/authorise election results with Trump/GOP sycophants at local level. The next election cycle will show the first signs of how successful that work has been - any election on a knife edge will fall to the GOP candidate with justification made to fit around a story that the decisions made were fair. Mail in mail in ballots will be the soft target for exclusion and artificial deadlines imposed to make declarations. Any Democratic protesting this will be portrayed as unwilling to accept democracy or attempting to skew results.

 

This is the party of Mitch McConnell and power at any cost. 

The UK might be a shambles but it's infinitely better than whatever is left of the American dream.

[BlueRiver]

I may take a differing view but I really don’t see how Jan 6th was anything close to the coup being painted here.

 

The system held. The people who were charged with certain duties did those as expected. There was zero military support for Trump staying in office. All of these things taken together means I really fail to see it as this narrowly avoided catastrophe. 

 

I really do not see how they came anywhere close to overthrowing American democracy. It’s even been stated in this thread but the Trump appointed circuit judges threw out cases. GOP state governors stood up to his pressure. I really don’t know how a ragtag bunch of conspiracy theorists and morons nearly ended American democracy. The foundations are far too strong for that to be the end of it and if they aren’t…well that’s just pathetic. 
 

 

[Unknown user]

On 23/07/2022 at 20:02, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I think you know exactly what I was getting at. But to clarify are you not in the least concerned that cross examination is not being allowed? 

 

What are you talking about? Who would be cross examining?

 

It's a congressional committee hearing, is there ever cross examination?

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

I may take a differing view but I really don’t see how Jan 6th was anything close to the coup being painted here.

 

The system held. The people who were charged with certain duties did those as expected. There was zero military support for Trump staying in office. All of these things taken together means I really fail to see it as this narrowly avoided catastrophe. 

 

I really do not see how they came anywhere close to overthrowing American democracy. It’s even been stated in this thread but the Trump appointed circuit judges threw out cases. GOP state governors stood up to his pressure. I really don’t know how a ragtag bunch of conspiracy theorists and morons nearly ended American democracy. The foundations are far too strong for that to be the end of it and if they aren’t…well that’s just pathetic. 

 

 

No matter how pathetic you think it was, at midnight if the legal formalities hadn't been completed Trump would still have been president and could have imposed martial law, "justified" by being in such an unprecedented situation.

 

Pence understood the importance of formalising everything on the day and held firm.

[Mysterion]

9 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

I may take a differing view but I really don’t see how Jan 6th was anything close to the coup being painted here.

 

Whilst Smithee has outlined the reasoning - it's worth outlining what happened regarding the Electoral College vote. The march on the capital was to disrupt the process and allow Trump to intervene. 

 

Several GOP activists attempted to declare the electoral college votes for various States in favour of Trump. If a delay had been introduced and efforts made to take those declarations the election could have been declared officially by the Electoral College for Trump. 

 

This part of the plan was advanced to the point that the activists who claimed they were able to declare Electoral College votes for Trump submitted their declarations to the National Archives. Some attempted to access the Capital on January 6th in an effort to replace officials from their State. 

 

The two outcomes of this are:

 

1. Those people involved with perverting the outcome officially submitted their misdemeanour as evidence in perpetuity to the National Archives.

 

2. Some of those people are on CCTV/Cameras seeking access to the Capital to change the outcome. 

 

Activists were spurred on by Trump and the conspiracy theorists around him to take action. 

 

Please review the details:

https://www.justsecurity.org/81939/timeline-false-alternate-slate-of-electors-scheme-donald-trump-and-his-close-associates/

 

[Riccarton3]

21 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

No matter how pathetic you think it was, at midnight if the legal formalities hadn't been completed Trump would still have been president and could have imposed martial law, "justified" by being in such an unprecedented situation.

 

Pence understood the importance of formalising everything on the day and held firm.

27 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

I may take a differing view but I really don’t see how Jan 6th was anything close to the coup being painted here.

 

The system held. The people who were charged with certain duties did those as expected. There was zero military support for Trump staying in office. All of these things taken together means I really fail to see it as this narrowly avoided catastrophe. 

 

I really do not see how they came anywhere close to overthrowing American democracy. It’s even been stated in this thread but the Trump appointed circuit judges threw out cases. GOP state governors stood up to his pressure. I really don’t know how a ragtag bunch of conspiracy theorists and morons nearly ended American democracy. The foundations are far too strong for that to be the end of it and if they aren’t…well that’s just pathetic. 
 

 

Just a rag tag bunch of morons. Be ironic if they succeeded.

 

[Maple Leaf]

21 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

I may take a differing view but I really don’t see how Jan 6th was anything close to the coup being painted here.

 

The system held. The people who were charged with certain duties did those as expected. There was zero military support for Trump staying in office. All of these things taken together means I really fail to see it as this narrowly avoided catastrophe. 

 

I really do not see how they came anywhere close to overthrowing American democracy. It’s even been stated in this thread but the Trump appointed circuit judges threw out cases. GOP state governors stood up to his pressure. I really don’t know how a ragtag bunch of conspiracy theorists and morons nearly ended American democracy. The foundations are far too strong for that to be the end of it and if they aren’t…well that’s just pathetic. 
 

 

The final step in the election process is for Congress to ratify the election results, as decided by the Electoral College.  The session in congress is chaired by the Vice-President.

 

Trump urged his supporters to halt that session of Congress, and some of those supporters decided that the best way of doing that would be to hang the Vice-President.  They tried to do halt Congress but failed, merely delaying the ratification by a few hours.

 

Had they succeeded, the USA was in unknown territory.  Conceivably, Trump could then have declared the 2020 election null and void, then simply remained in power while Congress figured out what to do.  

[BlueRiver]

44 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

No matter how pathetic you think it was, at midnight if the legal formalities hadn't been completed Trump would still have been president and could have imposed martial law, "justified" by being in such an unprecedented situation.

 

Pence understood the importance of formalising everything on the day and held firm.

Martial law cannot be approved without Congress is my understanding. There’s statutes on the books in the States strongly governing the use of the military domestically.

 

Happy to be corrected though. 

[BlueRiver]

25 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

Whilst Smithee has outlined the reasoning - it's worth outlining what happened regarding the Electoral College vote. The march on the capital was to disrupt the process and allow Trump to intervene. 

 

Several GOP activists attempted to declare the electoral college votes for various States in favour of Trump. If a delay had been introduced and efforts made to take those declarations the election could have been declared officially by the Electoral College for Trump. 

 

This part of the plan was advanced to the point that the activists who claimed they were able to declare Electoral College votes for Trump submitted their declarations to the National Archives. Some attempted to access the Capital on January 6th in an effort to replace officials from their State. 

 

The two outcomes of this are:

 

1. Those people involved with perverting the outcome officially submitted their misdemeanour as evidence in perpetuity to the National Archives.

 

2. Some of those people are on CCTV/Cameras seeking access to the Capital to change the outcome. 

 

Activists were spurred on by Trump and the conspiracy theorists around him to take action. 

 

Please review the details:

https://www.justsecurity.org/81939/timeline-false-alternate-slate-of-electors-scheme-donald-trump-and-his-close-associates/

 

I’ll read that link when I get the chance thank you. 
 

22 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

The final step in the election process is for Congress to ratify the election results, as decided by the Electoral College.  The session in congress is chaired by the Vice-President.

 

Trump urged his supporters to halt that session of Congress, and some of those supporters decided that the best way of doing that would be to hang the Vice-President.  They tried to do halt Congress but failed, merely delaying the ratification by a few hours.

 

Had they succeeded, the USA was in unknown territory.  Conceivably, Trump could then have declared the 2020 election null and void, then simply remained in power while Congress figured out what to do.  

I really am struggling with how Trump could just declare XYZ and everyone would follow. Perhaps it is explained elsewhere but Trump declaring an election null and void would not have made it so. 
 

I will stress I’m not trying to be deliberately argumentative here but I’ve struggled since Jan 6th itself to view this as some grand threat to democracy in America. It may be the sharp end of a lot of movement in the back rooms but if America could fall because someone wasn’t confirmed by midnight, it needs to have a good look at its electoral procedures and probably should have done 200 years ago. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

On 23/07/2022 at 09:43, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

They weren't pardoned they were both accused of the same charge Bannon is, contempt of congress but neither went to trial. Holder was AG and was accused of gun running in Mexico, Lerner an IRS executive of targeting Republicans for audit. Holder claimed executive privilege and even although a judge said it didn't apply in his case still avoided a trial. Lerner pleaded the fifth. Oh and one the subject of the show trial (which is the only thing you can call it) are you not even slightly concerned that not cross examination of witnesses is not being allowed. 

 

Since I don't know what particular near-fascist Facebook meme you've gotten this from recently, I haven't studied up on the details, but IIRC (and I may not) both were still working in the Executive at the point of the trial, which meant that executive privilege still applied.

 

(FWIW I think executive privilege is a mistake and should be roundly curtailed, and Congress given much more subpoena power, but TMK it's very much not the same charge as Bannon, who's avoiding a congressional subpoena for which both the issuance of the subpoena and the matters under question occurred long after he'd left the Executive as an employee.)

 

57 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

I may take a differing view but I really don’t see how Jan 6th was anything close to the coup being painted here.

 

The system held. The people who were charged with certain duties did those as expected. There was zero military support for Trump staying in office. All of these things taken together means I really fail to see it as this narrowly avoided catastrophe. 

 

I really do not see how they came anywhere close to overthrowing American democracy. It’s even been stated in this thread but the Trump appointed circuit judges threw out cases. GOP state governors stood up to his pressure. I really don’t know how a ragtag bunch of conspiracy theorists and morons nearly ended American democracy. The foundations are far too strong for that to be the end of it and if they aren’t…well that’s just pathetic. 
 

 

 

Under the current system, the final certification of the election happens in Congress, which is what was was happening on January 6. It has long been widely accepted that this is strictly a ceremonial role, and that Congress cannot take any action, barring indisputable evidence of fraud, to overturn that. This has not been fully specified in any law, and therefore what Trump was angling to do was to push an extreme, novel interpretation of the law and get his friends in Congress (and notably, Mike Pence) to adopt that interpretation, then go to the Supreme Court (which he'd just finished packing with his reactionary cronies), and hopefully get a favorable judgement.

 

Failing that, the mob was planning on storming Congress and literally executing officials who didn't follow their plan. They had literally erected a fully functional gibbet on the Mall. Because the the narrow rules about vacancies, it's possible this could have left a rump Congress with enough Trumpists to certify his election.

 

Yes, some of the failsafes held, but what's distressing is how many didn't. Further, there's now abundant evidence that the Supreme Court is a fully corrupted and political institution at this point (The Dodds decision being part of the picture but certainly not all of it). It's also been growingly apparent but is now screamingly apparent that a substantial portion of one of the two major parties in the US is actively disinterested in preserving democratic rule. This is and should be incredibly distressing.

 

There are now decent bills to codify the procedures of transfers of power that look like they might pass, and prosecutions are proceeding at a slow pace at Justice. If all of this holds, we'll slowly crawl out of this crisis. However, election deniers and anti-democrats are winning fringe elections in places around the country in Sheriff's offices and in local election boards. The danger has not yet passed by any means.