U.S. Politics megathread (merged)

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

9 minutes ago, PortyJambo said:

 

😭 😭

Knoxville, I think you need count your idiots, one of them might be missing 😂

[Pasquale for King]

He was “Borderline enthusiastic that people love him that much that they would do this for him”. 
****ing lunatic. Four people died. 
 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Pasquale for King

[Sharpie]

46 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

It can't just be JKB that identified the threat of disorder from Trump's earlier calls to arms. The failure to have a sizeable force on hand to defend the Capitol is negligence at best.

 

I can't tell who the guys are who looked like polis, carrying sidearms and night sticks but I'm guessing that they are security guards for the Capitol building itself; possibly lacking sufficient training to handle such an incursion. In the clips posted here, you can see them walking in ahead of the rioters, seeming to try to reason with them and (sensibly, in my view) refraining from drawing their weapons.

 

Somebody earlier posted a picture of the Mall Cop to compare to the policing of the BLM protests. That's exactly what it looked like. As I say, negligence at best but I fear something more sinister prevented there being a more serious and secure force posted given the heads up we'd all had.

    While as we would say in the military of my day having my morning ablutions, shave, shower, no shag anymore, I listened to the local news. It was announced that the U.S. government are launching an investigation regarding the lack of police presence at the Capitol Building. One thing that was mentioned was the lack of deployment of available resources. The death of a demonstrator/rioter is one of the subjects of importance. The question of lethal force used in the death of a young female United States Air Force veteran, who was unarmed and there is no evidence as yet of threatening activity was mentioned as one of the subjects on the agenda. Her support of a draft dodging liar surprises me. Criticism of the police and security personnel, particularly management is not necessarily and certainly in my own case any form of support for illegal actions. A person would have to be totally blind to not see that 1. Trump has total responsibility for the actions yesterday, the police failed miserably in their actions. 3. Many of the rioters probably had motivations that had nothing to do with Trump or politics they are just in my opinion bad violent people who saw an opportunity to practise their violence. These things I hope will be properly investigated and results publicised. It was a true American tragedy. I find it sad also that after all these years on JKB ,my openly expressed views ,I would be accused of  supporting violent law breakers. Actually quite sad.

[Zico]

39 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

This is our 1776 ffs 🙈. 

I could live without seeing the cumface of a sweaty, ginger redneck. Not sure the black dude’s enjoying himself much either. 

[Pasquale for King]

19 minutes ago, Zico said:

I could live without seeing the cumface of a sweaty, ginger redneck. Not sure the black dude’s enjoying himself much either. 

Me too, but it’s entirely on topic unfortunately. These ok?

Edited January 7, 2021 by Pasquale for King

[DETTY29]

Did I catch right that over 200 representatives voted against accepting the electoral college position?

 

How does this compare in normal times?

[sadj]

52 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Hahahahahahaha

[CavySlaveJambo]

Trumps Facebook ban been extended indefinitely. But for at least 2 weeks
 

Because the risk is too great. 
 

https://twitter.com/mscodygodwin/status/1347210096447774721?s=21

Edited January 7, 2021 by CavySlaveJambo

[Cade]

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Republican Adam Kinzinger has called for the 25th be invoked and Trump removed from office and VP Pence put in charge for the next two weeks.

[Zico]

1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

Me too, but it’s entirely on topic unfortunately. These ok?

That’s better!

[J.T.F.Robertson]

1 hour ago, PortyJambo said:

 

😭 😭

 

"We're storming the Capitol, it's a revolution." 

 

Oh, why didn't you say? Sorry about the mace.

 

 

 

[Captain Slog]

26 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Republican Adam Kinzinger has called for the 25th be invoked and Trump removed from office and VP Pence put in charge for the next two weeks.

All it takes is for Pence to get majority cabinet approval to set the ball rolling.  Then he'd need 2/3 senate approval.  We can hope.

 

Impeachment needs the senate House leader to call for it, and thats still officially McConnell until those two new senators arrive

[I P Knightley]

1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

Me too, but it’s entirely on topic unfortunately. These ok?

Robbie Savage heading home wihth his souvenir

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

32 minutes ago, Captain Slog said:

All it takes is for Pence to get majority cabinet approval to set the ball rolling.  Then he'd need 2/3 senate approval.  We can hope.

 

Impeachment needs the senate House leader to call for it, and thats still officially McConnell until those two new senators arrive

Impeachment is a House activity so it’s not McConnell’s call. If Trump is impeached by the house, then it goes to the Senate for trial.

 

Chuck Schumer is now calling for either 25th amendment or impeachment. Doubt he’d do that without Nancy Pelosi’s input so I think the chance of impeachment proceedings has gone up massively.

[gjcc]

First president to be impeached twice would be some legacy. 

[Justin Z]

2 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

 

 

😶

[pablo]

16 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

😶

 

Indeed. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just watching the " storming " of the building and theres a lot of toxic male white masculinity.  In fact the very definition of it.  Foul people really. Absolute trash .  The military woman who got shot really brought shame on the military and has paid a heavy price for it 

Edited January 7, 2021 by JamesM48

[DETTY29]

Out of interest, per ITN News, when was America ever the citadel of democracy?

 

Self acclaimed, yes, backed up evidence?

Edited January 7, 2021 by DETTY29

[Cade]

3 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

Out of interest, per ITN News, when was America ever the citadel of democracy?

Maybe, for about 10 years, towards the end of the Cold War, but only for rich whites.

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

 

5 hours ago, Cade said:

Anyone attempting to in any way equate the events of yesterday with Scottish independence rallies is either a wind up merchant or an idiot.

Maybe they can be both ?

2 hours ago, J.T.F.Robertson said:

 

"We're storming the Capitol, it's a revolution." 

 

Oh, why didn't you say? Sorry about the mace.

 

 

 

what a thick dense  bint  Now she knows how black people in the US may feel.  If she were black she would have been dead. So she should be thanking her lucjy stars

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Me too, but it’s entirely on topic unfortunately. These ok?

 

 

I wonder if he'll still be smiling when the judge says 10 years.

 

A lot of people are going to be doing some serious jail time.

[Pasquale for King]

55 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

😶

Spot on, seen so many today. 
 

[Sharpie]

Being a father, grandfather, great grandfather, and old, I cannot honestly anymore take pleasure out of death.  Absolutely some people bring it on to themselves, the woman yesterday didn't need to be where she was under the circumstances she was in, but I am not sure I see it as a crime justifying a death sentence.  The fact though is that my sympathies are with her family who have to mourn the loss of a beloved child for no really good reason. Of course I have been deemed a protestor supporter because I have expressed concerns about the Capitol Police and Security use of lethal force when up to now I have seen no evidence of justification other than reports of home made bombs and some arrests at other localities for possession of weapons. So far I have seen none mentioned at the Capitol where police used lethal action at one place and assisted admission and posed for pictures at others. I am no supporter of Civil action, particularly where there is threat of bodily damage, and property damage, and anyone who really knows me would question my alleged loyalty to Trump or his followers, I have just after a long time of life and death,  advising relatives of passings, assisting injured who later died, I just find it hard to celebrate most deaths, although I still see some that have some merit of pleasure.

[Pasquale for King]

There is a lot of nonsense spoken about how wonderful the US democracy etc is. 
Biden does speak well, so did Obama. Let’s hope he achieves more and Harris having the casting vote should help. 

[maroonlegions]

5 hours ago, Cade said:

Anyone attempting to in any way equate the events of yesterday with Scottish independence rallies is either a wind up merchant or an idiot.

Yip and a trolls but they get away with it.

 

If this picture is LEGIT and not faked then WOW.

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by maroonlegions

[Maple Leaf]

1 hour ago, gjcc said:

First president to be impeached twice would be some legacy. 

 

That's the way I look at it.  There isn't enough time for another impeachment trial, but the fact that was impeached for a second time will put him in the history books for all the wrong reasons.

[Sharpie]

1 hour ago, gjcc said:

First president to be impeached twice would be some legacy. 

They literally took years to get the first Impeachment tried, and Trump was acquitted, will they do a better job with a maximum of what thirteen days to prepare evidence, set date for Impeachment Hearings and prosecute them I wonder if it would be worthwhile. The fact is Trump has created his own negative legacy with his encouragement of yesterdays happenings, his name will live in disgrace forever as a result of that. His speech to the masses when he first announced that he would be holding a rally on 6th January to protest the election alleged theft he should have if anyone wanted action have been impeached then for inciting mob action and possible insurrection. Trump as I have previously stated is directly responsible for the property damage, loss of life and total disarray of American life. In my humble opinion my views of poor police action which you see as support of mob action and Trump is totally without any foundation, my comments now are based on life experience, including in senior management in the profession which I feel was in this case negligent in their planning, policy and practise before during and after the incidents as reported. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, Kalamazoo Jambo said:

Impeachment is a House activity so it’s not McConnell’s call. If Trump is impeached by the house, then it goes to the Senate for trial.

 

Chuck Schumer is now calling for either 25th amendment or impeachment. Doubt he’d do that without Nancy Pelosi’s input so I think the chance of impeachment proceedings has gone up massively.

 

Pelosi has now said that Donald Trump has commited 'a seditious act' and calls for his immediate removal through the 25th amendment.

[Mikey1874]

Its shoot to kill when you are protecting the very most VIPs.

 

Quite simple. 

 

Its very good it was only one person who breached the red zone. 

[Maple Leaf]

3 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Pelosi has now said that Donald Trump has commited 'a seditious act' and calls for his immediate removal through the 25th amendment.

 

IF Pence agrees, and IF a majority of Trump's cabinet agrees (those are two big 'ifs'), then Trump can appeal to the Senate, where it would take a 2/3 majority to remove him.

 

Unlikely to happen, imo.

[Cade]

Sergeant of Arms resigns.

Chief of the Capitol Police also rumoured to be penning his resignation.

 

Questions have to be answered, they cannot be allowed to just quit then slink off.

[Mikey1874]

3 minutes ago, Cade said:

Sergeant of Arms resigns.

Chief of the Capitol Police also rumoured to be penning his resignation.

 

Questions have to be answered, they cannot be allowed to just quit then slink off.

 

It is true that resigning usually removes all liability. 

[maroonlegions]

9 minutes ago, Cade said:

Sergeant of Arms resigns.

Chief of the Capitol Police also rumoured to be penning his resignation.

 

Questions have to be answered, they cannot be allowed to just quit then slink off.

Its what they do, been slinking off for generations..

[Sharpie]

12 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

It is true that resigning usually removes all liability. 

Thats a fairly wide statement, certainly resignation can preempt a hearing which could end in termination, however in this case I am not sure that resignation would restrict actions of say gross negligence, failure to carry out ones assigned duty, and whatever they may come up with which in again my opinion would lead to reference of the death of an American citizen conducting an action which although potentially illegal was not life threatening to justify lethal force. Believe me there will be lots of effort to find sacrificial lambs to take the blame and this man could be one of them. I am not sure the average person realises just how poorly this prewarned situation was handled at senior police levels.  

 

Just to show how my opinions differ from experience to the average citizen.I was pretty well pilloried for accusing a cop in the Florida School shootings of cowardice. He is now charged with cowardice I believe has been found guilty and was awaiting sentence, he also resigned pre legal action, but it did not save him.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Sharpie

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, Sharpie said:

Thats a fairly wide statement, certainly resignation can preempt a hearing which could end in termination, however in this case I am not sure that resignation would restrict actions of say gross negligence, failure to carry out ones assigned duty, and whatever they may come up with which in again my opinion would lead to reference of the death of an American citizen conducting an action which although potentially illegal was not life threatening to justify lethal force. Believe me there will be lots of effort to find sacrificial lambs to take the blame and this man could be one of them. I am not sure the average person realises just how poorly this prewarned situation was handled at senior police levels.

 

I think its 30 years no Police officer in UK has been prosecuted for a death in custody.

 

For example. 

[RobboM]

1 minute ago, Sharpie said:

Thats a fairly wide statement, certainly resignation can preempt a hearing which could end in termination, however in this case I am not sure that resignation would restrict actions of say gross negligence, failure to carry out ones assigned duty, and whatever they may come up with which in again my opinion would lead to reference of the death of an American citizen conducting an action which although potentially illegal was not life threatening to justify lethal force. Believe me there will be lots of effort to find sacrificial lambs to take the blame and this man could be one of them. I am not sure the average person realises just how poorly this prewarned situation was handled at senior police levels.

To the extent it was deliberately engineered? .... or am I falling into conspiracy territory? 😁

[Sharpie]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

I think its 30 years no Police officer in UK has been prosecuted for a death in custody.

 

For example. 

We I thought were discussing the action in Washington DC, 6th January 2021 the woman killed was not in custody.  Was not armed, and I have seen no mention of her being advised to cease and desist her activities. I as a retired police manager have to now with the evidence available to me see no justification for a police shooting. I have stated in the past that all my police arms use training involved aiming at body mass, the intent being that if you have to shoot it is going to achieve its purpose, but one must be sure that when making the decision to shoot one has full justification to do so. Taking a life is a pretty serious action.

[Justin Z]

56 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

Being a father, grandfather, great grandfather, and old, I cannot honestly anymore take pleasure out of death.  Absolutely some people bring it on to themselves, the woman yesterday didn't need to be where she was under the circumstances she was in, but I am not sure I see it as a crime justifying a death sentence.  The fact though is that my sympathies are with her family who have to mourn the loss of a beloved child for no really good reason. Of course I have been deemed a protestor supporter because I have expressed concerns about the Capitol Police and Security use of lethal force when up to now I have seen no evidence of justification other than reports of home made bombs and some arrests at other localities for possession of weapons. So far I have seen none mentioned at the Capitol where police used lethal action at one place and assisted admission and posed for pictures at others. I am no supporter of Civil action, particularly where there is threat of bodily damage, and property damage, and anyone who really knows me would question my alleged loyalty to Trump or his followers, I have just after a long time of life and death,  advising relatives of passings, assisting injured who later died, I just find it hard to celebrate most deaths, although I still see some that have some merit of pleasure.

 

Your skepticism is entirely founded and I agree as well in that I don't take any joy from that woman's death either.

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, Sharpie said:

We I thought were discussing the action in Washington DC, 6th January 2021 the woman killed was not in custody.  Was not armed, and I have seen no mention of her being advised to cease and desist her activities. I as a retired police manager have to now with the evidence available to me see no justification for a police shooting. I have stated in the past that all my police arms use training involved aiming at body mass, the intent being that if you have to shoot it is going to achieve its purpose, but one must be sure that when making the decision to shoot one has full justification to do so. Taking a life is a pretty serious action.

 

You missed 9/11?

 

The issue there was not that it happened. But that it could easily have been prevented. Fighter jets were around. But a series of protocols led to hesitation. 

 

Since then the security services removed a lot of the hesitation in their operations. 

 

It might be different to what I saw. But Senators and Congressmen are just below the President in terms of protecting. It's been confirmed some were in the area which the lady in question breached by going through an open window.

 

In that case shoot to kill is clear and obvious. 

 

As I say your world of experience is maybe different. 

[redjambo]

13 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

I think its 30 years no Police officer in UK has been prosecuted for a death in custody.

 

For example. 

 

There have been several prosecutions during that time, but none successfully for 50 years, as far as I can gather.

 

https://fullfact.org/crime/prosecutions-deaths-police-custody/

[Mikey1874]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

There have been several prosecutions during that time, but none successfully for 50 years, as far as I can gather.

 

https://fullfact.org/crime/prosecutions-deaths-police-custody/

 

Yes. Thanks. 

 

My imprecise wording. 

[Maple Leaf]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

Your skepticism is entirely founded and I agree as well in that I don't take any joy from that woman's death either.

That woman's death was a senseless tragedy.

 

You know American law infinitely better than me, but isn't there something called the "Stand your Ground" law, or some such thing?  Under that law (if it is a law), a home owner can shoot dead an unarmed intruder with no repercussions.  Doesn't that mean she was putting herself in mortal danger by breaking into the Capitol where armed guards are present.

[Cade]

 

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

Its shoot to kill when you are protecting the very most VIPs.

 

Quite simple. 

 

Its very good it was only one person who breached the red zone. 

I think the black people in America like the family of Breonna Taylor might well disagree with it being shoot to kill ONLY when protecting VIPs. 

[Justin Z]

20 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

That woman's death was a senseless tragedy.

 

You know American law infinitely better than me, but isn't there something called the "Stand your Ground" law, or some such thing?  Under that law (if it is a law), a home owner can shoot dead an unarmed intruder with no repercussions.  Doesn't that mean she was putting herself in mortal danger by breaking into the Capitol where armed guards are present.

 

There are some states with stand your ground laws. I'm not aware of a federal stand your ground statute. That doesn't mean that this shooting won't be found to be legally justified, just not via a statute like that.

[Pasquale for King]

7 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

Harris and Biden have not referenced this, good on them. 

[Sharpie]

16 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

You missed 9/11?

 

The issue there was not that it happened. But that it could easily have been prevented. Fighter jets were around. But a series of protocols led to hesitation. 

 

Since then the security services removed a lot of the hesitation in their operations. 

 

It might be different to what I saw. But Senators and Congressmen are just below the President in terms of protecting. It's been confirmed some were in the area which the lady in question breached by going through an open window.

 

In that case shoot to kill is clear and obvious. 

 

As I say your world of experience is maybe different. 

  

There is no doubt my experience is different to some or many on here. In my world I lived on Policy, Directives, Planning, all with a view to providing a safe and secure atmosphere for the public to live, work and play in safety. To achieve this we were provided with certain permissions . One was use of lethal force. This was not blanket permission, it was bound by very restrictive requirements  before implementation. I have to say I find it less than reasonable use to suggest that a person unarmed showing no evidence of  possession of arms, and as far as I have seen no physical or verbal threats to anyone in the building. To suggest that you killed a person because they may be a danger to Senators in the building is to me tenuous at the best, when there were literally hundreds of others in the same area who were not prosecuted in any manner. One out of hundreds unarmed, making no threats, executed on a possibility she may be going to do harm.  I just find that totally unacceptable, and completely foreign to my experience and training. I am sorry to be so deep into debate on this matter, but it just bothers me that someone sharing my profession acted as I see it so hastily with such serious result. 

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

32 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

That woman's death was a senseless tragedy.

 

You know American law infinitely better than me, but isn't there something called the "Stand your Ground" law, or some such thing?  Under that law (if it is a law), a home owner can shoot dead an unarmed intruder with no repercussions.  Doesn't that mean she was putting herself in mortal danger by breaking into the Capitol where armed guards are present.

‘Stand your ground laws’ are at state level so some states have them, some don’t.