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Levein’s time is up...

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Robbo-Jambo

Our record in the year 2019 would have seen any other manager of HMFC well gone by now.

 

There is no two ways about that.

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Old Castle Rock
4 minutes ago, OmiyaHearts said:

I'm trying to get excited about the two potential signings of Whelan and Meshino. I can't shake the feeling we don't have the right people to get the best out of them though. 

 

I look forward to being proven wrong...

I agree look what Stevie Clarke did for Killie getting an extra yard out of the same squad he inherited, maybe CL's last roll of the dice 

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Gregorski
2 minutes ago, Robbo-Jambo said:

Our record in the year 2019 would have seen any other manager of HMFC well gone by now.

 

There is no two ways about that.

Agree.

 

Possibly would have got a stay of execution having got to a final but I doubt he would have survived the League cup group stages.

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Dallas Green
7 hours ago, Hearts1975 said:

It would have been exactly the same right enough. Craig has overseen signing in the region of 60-70 players 

 

You compare 2 x situations which are not even remotely linked in terms of circumstances  

 

"Until the end of Season 2012-13 Heart of Midlothian will only be able to register players on the following basis:

  • One-out, one-in (i.e. the club will only be able to replace such number of players as have their registrations with the club terminated - whether by sale, mutual agreement or otherwise)
  • Only under-21 players (as defined in the SPL Rules) will be able to be registered
  • Any new under-21 player registered must have an annualised employment cost lower than that of the player leaving the club."

 

That's the season after we won the cup in 2012.

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Robbo-Jambo
1 minute ago, Forever Hearts said:

This is the best squad of players we've had in a while. Absolutely no excuses from now on. 

You are probably right but we need someone to gel this group of players into a formation that will get the best out of them.

 

The tactics need to be right and every player must know what his role is in the team which at the moment is not the case when players are looking across at the bench with a puzzled look on their faces especially when subs are made.

 

The chopping and changing of the team must stop as well so we can move forward with our strongest starting 11 each week barring injuries of course IMO

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Debut 4

The use of the word ‘failure’ can be dramatic or a bit vague. 

 

In what context does it sit with Alex MacDonald? Not winning a trophy can be deemed a failure on that specific task but before those Always the Bridesmaid moments he’d built something special to at least be in that position. 

 

If anything, and in modern times, his and Jim Jefferies eras should be the benchmark to build from for aspiring Hearts teams. 

 

As time goes on, we’ve yet to meet another manager who can produce such at Hearts. We all crave that turning point where we become ‘trophy laden’ , in the top 3 as a staple , but at this moment those past eras are fast becoming something we shouldn’t quite be in a rush to criticise or pick holes in. 

 

Throw in dominating the derby. 

 

Sometimes its all we had to shout about in those barren trophy seasons. 

 

 

 

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MoncurMacdonaldMercer

doddie won the tennents sixes - anything else he did counts for nothing

 

bobby moncur won the first division - anything else he did like signing Robbo Mackay and bowman counts for nothing

 

almost total failures but fortunately not - that win over morton :)

 

 

 

 

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To Be Frank
21 minutes ago, Dallas Green said:

 

That's the season after we won the cup in 2012.

 

@Hearts1975

 

:scenes:

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Hearts1975
16 minutes ago, Dallas Green said:

 

That's the season after we won the cup in 2012.

Your absolutely right. I stand corrected. Well picked up.

 

I still stand by the point that I made in the sense that even although in 2011-2012 (correction) still major turmoil with players not being signed, jefferies getting the boot in close season and Sergio pretty much oversaw a fire sale in terms of players leaving and not being paid. I think some people don’t quite realise the circumstances that it would be like for any manager to operate back then, not withstanding the fact that Romanov was dictating who was coming in/leaving 

 

jefferies made a few signings before Romanov got the bullet but am I not right in saying that the only player that Sergio signed at the start of the season was Calumn tapping from spurs, and that was on loan 

 

I still stick to my point that it’s unfair making comparisons between how we played in 2011/12 to last season considering CL has had far more resources, and free movement within the transfer market 

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7628mm
25 minutes ago, OmiyaHearts said:

I'm trying to get excited about the two potential signings of Whelan and Meshino. I can't shake the feeling we don't have the right people to get the best out of them though. 

 

I look forward to being proven wrong...

 

I too want to be proved wrong.

 

I do fear however your 1st paragraph is what is likely to happen. We have in the recent past brought in some "good" players who have started well and for some reason their form has fallen away and we end up with the same turgid, boring, slow style with no visible signs of improvement.

If we manage to get this Japanese boy in and he is as good as his youtube makes him look I suggest that after 15-20 games he will  be dragged down to the level we have seen for 2-3 seasons now.

 

Again I hope to be proved wrong but the last 2-3 seasons suggest otherwise

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Hearts1975
2 minutes ago, To Be Frank said:

 

@Hearts1975

 

:scenes:

😁 before you get too excited ... 

 

 I got my dates completely wrong, hands up.

 

That said, you still cannot make comparisons between what Opportunity Levein has had under AB Vs what PS had under Romanov 

 

as per my initial post to you, the point I was making wasn’t to disagree that had levein beat Celtic last year in the final that it wouldn’t have made the season better, but to suggest giving a direct comparison with last season and 2011/12 was ludicrous to say the least 

 

you seemed to infer that everyone, excluding me, would agree on this even although I didn’t pass comment on what you said 

 

don’t mind admitting I got my dates Wrong but I don’t really think it makes a difference to the point I was making in the first place 

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Pasquale for King
31 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

Your absolutely right. I stand corrected. Well picked up.

 

I still stand by the point that I made in the sense that even although in 2011-2012 (correction) still major turmoil with players not being signed, jefferies getting the boot in close season and Sergio pretty much oversaw a fire sale in terms of players leaving and not being paid. I think some people don’t quite realise the circumstances that it would be like for any manager to operate back then, not withstanding the fact that Romanov was dictating who was coming in/leaving 

 

jefferies made a few signings before Romanov got the bullet but am I not right in saying that the only player that Sergio signed at the start of the season was Calumn tapping from spurs, and that was on loan 

 

I still stick to my point that it’s unfair making comparisons between how we played in 2011/12 to last season considering CL has had far more resources, and free movement within the transfer market 

The conditions that Sergio managed under are night and day compared to Levein.

Im not sure about Tapping but he had to loan Sutton our to get Craig Beattie in the door.

Jefferies had the first two league games before he was emptied, a draw at Ibrox where Naismith scored their equaliser and a defeat at Dundee Utd where Daly scored the winner.

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Pasquale for King
31 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

😁 before you get too excited ... 

 

 I got my dates completely wrong, hands up.

 

That said, you still cannot make comparisons between what Opportunity Levein has had under AB Vs what PS had under Romanov 

 

as per my initial post to you, the point I was making wasn’t to disagree that had levein beat Celtic last year in the final that it wouldn’t have made the season better, but to suggest giving a direct comparison with last season and 2011/12 was ludicrous to say the least 

 

you seemed to infer that everyone, excluding me, would agree on this even although I didn’t pass comment on what you said 

 

don’t mind admitting I got my dates Wrong but I don’t really think it makes a difference to the point I was making in the first place 

Good post 👍🏽

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To Be Frank
36 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

😁 before you get too excited ... 

 

 I got my dates completely wrong, hands up.

 

That said, you still cannot make comparisons between what Opportunity Levein has had under AB Vs what PS had under Romanov 

 

as per my initial post to you, the point I was making wasn’t to disagree that had levein beat Celtic last year in the final that it wouldn’t have made the season better, but to suggest giving a direct comparison with last season and 2011/12 was ludicrous to say the least 

 

you seemed to infer that everyone, excluding me, would agree on this even although I didn’t pass comment on what you said 

 

don’t mind admitting I got my dates Wrong but I don’t really think it makes a difference to the point I was making in the first place 

 

The simple point was about the league performance and how a cup win masks a poor league finish in a particular season.

 

Bugger all to do with any of the nonsense you jumped in both feet with. 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Hearts1975
6 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

The conditions that Sergio managed under are night and day compared to Levein.

Im not sure about Tapping but he had to loan Sutton our to get Craig Beattie in the door.

Jefferies had the first two league games before he was emptied, a draw at Ibrox where Naismith scored their equaliser and a defeat at Dundee Utd where Daly scored the winner.

I’m having a mair with my dates and timelines here! 😬 I’ll stand corrected on Jefferies as well .. 

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Pasquale for King
1 minute ago, Hearts1975 said:

I’m having a mair with my dates and timelines here! 😬 I’ll stand corrected on Jefferies as well .. 

No problem mate, Google is great for the memory 😜

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Hearts1975
3 minutes ago, To Be Frank said:

 

The simple point was about the league performance and how a cup win masks a poor league finish in a particular season.

 

Bugger all to do with any of the nonsense you jumped in both feet with. 🤷🏻‍♂️

That’s fine then Frank, but I wouldn’t have jumped in with “both feet” if you didn’t feel the need to measure/compare the 2 seasons directly, with each other, in the first place 🤷‍♂️

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To Be Frank
3 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

That’s fine then Frank, but I wouldn’t have jumped in with “both feet” if you didn’t feel the need to measure/compare the 2 seasons directly, with each other, in the first place 🤷‍♂️

 

Someone made a comment that winning the cup would have masked somewhat how poor last season was. I agreed and said the same thing had happened in 2011/12. 

 

No idea why you got so hot and bothered about it tbh 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Tasavallan

For me, nothing will surpass the pre-season friendly at Tynie against Boro in July 2005.  I just turned up to watch nothing special after a poor pre-season tour of Ireland and then to be blown away watching Burley's team include Schemel, Brellier, Miko, Bednar, Pospisil, Cesnauskis, Janny and Rudi.  It may only have been a 1-1 draw but it was so much more.    

 

HAPPY DAYS

 

If only Romanov's ego had not got in the way of leaving Burley to manage the team.

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Hearts1975
Just now, To Be Frank said:

 

Someone made a comment that winning the cup would have masked somewhat how poor last season was. I agreed and said the same thing had happened in 2011/12. 

 

No idea why you got so hot and bothered about it tbh 🤷🏻‍♂️

I am not getting hot and bothered about it and whether it was you, or anyone else, I would have said the very same thing 

 

Your post and context very much came across like if we won the cup last year, Sergio and Leveins overall performance would have ranked the same. In achievement yes, ability wise, questionable 

 

I Would have been over the moon if we won last year as a supporter and over the moon for Craig Levein, as I know how much it would have meant to him. No question 

 

But, and it’s a big but, if I was then to sit back in the aftermath and compare last season against Sergio’s season in charge I would be saying to myself, out of the 2 managers, who effectively got the same result or achievement (barring 1 league place) it would have took far more ability and skill for Sergio to have achieved what he achieved, Vs Levein, and given the circumstances both operated under 

 

 

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Hearts1975
7 minutes ago, Tasavallan said:

For me, nothing will surpass the pre-season friendly at Tynie against Boro in July 2005.  I just turned up to watch nothing special after a poor pre-season tour of Ireland and then to be blown away watching Burley's team include Schemel, Brellier, Miko, Bednar, Pospisil, Cesnauskis, Janny and Rudi.  It may only have been a 1-1 draw but it was so much more.    

 

HAPPY DAYS

 

If only Romanov's ego had not got in the way of leaving Burley to manage the team.

It’s one of the saddest things to this day that Romanov wanted to be the hero and yet if he just sat back and controlled his ego, for that one season, he would have been revered for ever more and created a legacy for him as a human being, in our lifetime and many lifetimes to come 

 

I Simply put it down to the fact that the man was just plain mad otherwise he would have left things be and got, what surely would have been the ultimate reward for him

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Bring Back Paulo Sergio

You don't need to win a trophy to be a successful manager to suggest you do is nonsense. Back to back 3rd place finishes and the group stage of a European cup is something special for a club like Hearts. Especially when you're saddled with debt. Levein done fantastic in his first spell.

 

 

 

 

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siegementality
2 hours ago, Gregorski said:

Wasn't giving you a history lesson mate, I was replying to somebody else.

 

I had to give up on you after you lumped Alex McDonald in to a category that included Graham Rix and Tommy McLean. 😂

 

Lumping managers into one of two categories, 'succesfull' and 'unsuccessfull' based on whether they won a trophy or not is incredibly simplistic and ignores so many other barometers that you could use to judge a manager on. 

 

And when the end result is that you end up lumping a Hearts legend  like Alex McDonald in with the likes of Rix who was at the club for a few months it's just farcical.

You know the point I was making and you’ve certainly laboured the feck out of yours!

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To Be Frank
18 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

I am not getting hot and bothered about it and whether it was you, or anyone else, I would have said the very same thing 

 

Your post and context very much came across like if we won the cup last year, Sergio and Leveins overall performance would have ranked the same. In achievement yes, ability wise, questionable 

 

I Would have been over the moon if we won last year as a supporter and over the moon for Craig Levein, as I know how much it would have meant to him. No question 

 

But, and it’s a big but, if I was then to sit back in the aftermath and compare last season against Sergio’s season in charge I would be saying to myself, out of the 2 managers, who effectively got the same result or achievement (barring 1 league place) it would have took far more ability and skill for Sergio to have achieved what he achieved, Vs Levein, and given the circumstances both operated under 

 

 

 

Still no idea how you read all that into this:

 

10 hours ago, To Be Frank said:

 

In 2012 the cup win covered up some dreadful league performances and a 6th place league finish. A cup win last year would have done exactly the same.

 

🤦‍♂️

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Gregorski
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, siegementality said:

You know the point I was making and you’ve certainly laboured the feck out of yours!

You mean I gave a concise, well thought out explanation of my opinion?

 

Aww shucks, cheers mate. 😍

 

Edited by Gregorski

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Bring Back Paulo Sergio
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, To Be Frank said:

 

Still no idea how you read all that into this:

 

 

🤦‍♂️

Who did Levein beat to get to the final compared to Sergio? Which manager had players only showing up one day a week for training while not getting paid? Sergio did a better job under much more difficult circumstances.

 

Ian black said the players knew exactly what their job was when they stepped out on to the pitch. 

 

Give Sergio the opportunity to show what he can do under Budge. I ****ing bet you it would be better than two 6th place finishes.

Edited by Bring Back Paulo Sergio

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Hearts1975
10 minutes ago, To Be Frank said:

 

Still no idea how you read all that into this:

 

 

🤦‍♂️

I probably understood the dreadful league performances in 2012 more than I did last year 

 

That’s all I was saying 

 

sure you will agree 

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Hearts1975
6 minutes ago, Bring Back Paulo Sergio said:

Who did Levein beat to get to the final compared to Sergio? Which manager had players only showing up one day a week for training while not getting paid? Sergio did a better job under much more difficult circumstances.

 

Ian black said the players knew exactly what their job was when they stepped out on to the pitch. 

 

Give Sergio the opportunity to show what he can do under Budge. I ****ing bet you it would be better than two 6th place finishes.

He did indeed. He also said that the training/tactics was the best that he had under any manager with Sergio including Levein, not to mention his reaction when asked about training under Levein 

 

What would Ian Black know though 

 

I’m sure he isn’t as best placed as some on here to give an informed opinion or assessment. 

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To Be Frank
19 minutes ago, Bring Back Paulo Sergio said:

Who did Levein beat to get to the final compared to Sergio? Which manager had players only showing up one day a week for training while not getting paid? Sergio did a better job under much more difficult circumstances.

 

Ian black said the players knew exactly what their job was when they stepped out on to the pitch. 

 

Give Sergio the opportunity to show what he can do under Budge. I ****ing bet you it would be better than two 6th place finishes.

 

Whoosh.

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To Be Frank
20 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

I probably understood the dreadful league performances in 2012 more than I did last year 

 

That’s all I was saying 

 

sure you will agree 

 

Definitely. We had a far better squad last year. But then again we did have Rudi in 2012 😍

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To Be Frank
10 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

He did indeed. He also said that the training/tactics was the best that he had under any manager with Sergio including Levein, not to mention his reaction when asked about training under Levein 

 

What would Ian Black know though 

 

I’m sure he isn’t as best placed as some on here to give an informed opinion or assessment. 

 

I’m not sure I’d hold Ian Black up as any sort of expert witness on any subject. Maybe painting and decorating.

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Pasquale for King
58 minutes ago, Bring Back Paulo Sergio said:

You don't need to win a trophy to be a successful manager to suggest you do is nonsense. Back to back 3rd place finishes and the group stage of a European cup is something special for a club like Hearts. Especially when you're saddled with debt. Levein done fantastic in his first spell.

 

 

 

 

He did and I was gutted when he left, how times change.

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Pasquale for King
43 minutes ago, Bring Back Paulo Sergio said:

Who did Levein beat to get to the final compared to Sergio? Which manager had players only showing up one day a week for training while not getting paid? Sergio did a better job under much more difficult circumstances.

 

Ian black said the players knew exactly what their job was when they stepped out on to the pitch. 

 

Give Sergio the opportunity to show what he can do under Budge. I ****ing bet you it would be better than two 6th place finishes.

Gowser said the same, we need someone in the same mould.

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Bring Back Paulo Sergio
27 minutes ago, To Be Frank said:

 

I’m not sure I’d hold Ian Black up as any sort of expert witness on any subject. Maybe painting and decorating.

I know. You don't need to believe Ian Black though. You just need to remember 19/5/2012 and how we got there.

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Jenks
3 hours ago, Debut 4 said:

The use of the word ‘failure’ can be dramatic or a bit vague. 

 

In what context does it sit with Alex MacDonald? Not winning a trophy can be deemed a failure on that specific task but before those Always the Bridesmaid moments he’d built something special to at least be in that position. 

 

If anything, and in modern times, his and Jim Jefferies eras should be the benchmark to build from for aspiring Hearts teams. 

 

As time goes on, we’ve yet to meet another manager who can produce such at Hearts. We all crave that turning point where we become ‘trophy laden’ , in the top 3 as a staple , but at this moment those past eras are fast becoming something we shouldn’t quite be in a rush to criticise or pick holes in. 

 

Throw in dominating the derby. 

 

Sometimes its all we had to shout about in those barren trophy seasons. 

 

 

 

I do genuinely think that Paulo Sergio could have done this if he didn't have to work with a squad who weren't getting paid. If he had another couple of years I think he would have done well.

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Randy Marsh
54 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

I probably understood the dreadful league performances in 2012 more than I did last year 

 

That’s all I was saying 

 

sure you will agree 

 

Were they actually that dreadful?  We whitewashed Hibs easily, won at Ibrox and beat Celtic at Tynie.  Sergio seemed to do poorly against the smaller teams like Killie etc.  However, this is something he could have easily sorted out if he had stayed on for another season given he only actually signed 1 player (Beattie).

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cocobeab

I maintain we have to keep in mind the whole picture. For my money the club outperformed expectation coming out of administration. With hee haw spending money Robbie did a turn with freebies and kids. As the clubs finances were diverted towards stability and the stand Cathro and Levein have struggled on scraping around using mid table levels of spending.

Since the stand went up (and with the assistance of benefactors) we’re now starting to aim a little higher with likes of Naismith, Whelan, Damour and Washington. 

I imagine Budge may be giving CL this year with the new higher levels of spending as a last chance saloon.

 

In the long history of our club two or three years of mid table mediocrity as we emerged out of administration and rebuilt from the foundations is perhaps understandable. Now that we seem to be back spending a bit of cash there’s a whole new pressure on Levein.

 

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Hearts1975
45 minutes ago, Randy Marsh said:

 

Were they actually that dreadful?  We whitewashed Hibs easily, won at Ibrox and beat Celtic at Tynie.  Sergio seemed to do poorly against the smaller teams like Killie etc.  However, this is something he could have easily sorted out if he had stayed on for another season given he only actually signed 1 player (Beattie).

Totally agree. No argument there.

I was quoting another poster and when using the word “dreadful”. Tongue in cheek on my part. If you read my previous posts back should make more sense 

 

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Away up in Gorgie
17 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

I asked Frank if the Spurs manager had won anything. 🤷‍♂️ That is all. 😁

 

He won the Argentinian league as a player 😱

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gowestjambo

Brian Clough when asked what made a good Manager - said having good players!!  Now he  was a guy who made ordinary players great through brilliant man management and motivation. This has been my main problem with Craig Levein. Without good players he was unable to produce results, and at one time said "I don't know how to get this team to score goals"

 

Now we definitely in my opinion have better players, lets see if he can produce a winning team - not be outplayed by Ross County at home. Because, if those better players do not produce improved results, there is only one man to blame!!

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Nookie Bear
16 minutes ago, gowestjambo said:

Brian Clough when asked what made a good Manager - said having good players!!  Now he  was a guy who made ordinary players great through brilliant man management and motivation. This has been my main problem with Craig Levein. Without good players he was unable to produce results, and at one time said "I don't know how to get this team to score goals"

 

Now we definitely in my opinion have better players, lets see if he can produce a winning team - not be outplayed by Ross County at home. Because, if those better players do not produce improved results, there is only one man to blame!!

 

No, let’s get a manager with more progressive ideas in to make the most of the decent squad Levein has assembled. 

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siegementality
30 minutes ago, gowestjambo said:

Brian Clough when asked what made a good Manager - said having good players!!  Now he  was a guy who made ordinary players great through brilliant man management and motivation. This has been my main problem with Craig Levein. Without good players he was unable to produce results, and at one time said "I don't know how to get this team to score goals"

 

Now we definitely in my opinion have better players, lets see if he can produce a winning team - not be outplayed by Ross County at home. Because, if those better players do not produce improved results, there is only one man to blame!!

Craig Levein "I don't know how to get this team to score goals". Bye then 👋 

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gowestjambo
16 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

No, let’s get a manager with more progressive ideas in to make the most of the decent squad Levein has assembled. 

 

I am 100% in agreement with you. My post was based upon him still being here and us making the most of a bad situation.If he continues to fail even with better players it hopefully would speed up his demise!

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gowestjambo
1 minute ago, siegementality said:

Craig Levein "I don't know how to get this team to score goals". Bye then 👋 

 

Completely agree. Any manager uttering those words should be fired on the spot! Confessing to be Clueless. It just seems very difficult for Ann Budge to see this!!

 

But if we have to put up with him, lets at least see the team playing attractive football and scoring goals!!

 

Incidentally, when we play a high tempo pressing game, we are a much better team. We thought after ending celtics run by winning 4-0 we had found a winning formula. Nope back to Leveins slow pedestrian method which never works....

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Randy Marsh
17 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

Totally agree. No argument there.

I was quoting another poster and when using the word “dreadful”. Tongue in cheek on my part. If you read my previous posts back should make more sense 

 

 

:thumbsup:  You are spot on.   Sergio did very well with limited time and resources,  Levein has been appalling with loads of time and a huge resources.  Not comparable.

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Vlad Magic
1 hour ago, Hearts1975 said:

Totally agree. No argument there.

I was quoting another poster and when using the word “dreadful”. Tongue in cheek on my part. If you read my previous posts back should make more sense 

 

 

You have not got a clue what you are talking about sunshine.

 

Pick that mask up on your way out.

 

Theres a good boy.

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Nookie Bear
14 minutes ago, gowestjambo said:

 

I am 100% in agreement with you. My post was based upon him still being here and us making the most of a bad situation.If he continues to fail even with better players it hopefully would speed up his demise!

 

Hopefully we won’t lose. - Perhaps a couple of scrappy 1-0 wins will do the job 👍🏻

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Randy Marsh
16 minutes ago, Vlad Magic said:

 

You have not got a clue what you are talking about sunshine.

 

Pick that mask up on your way out.

 

Theres a good boy.

 

:vrface:

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The Real Maroonblood
18 minutes ago, Vlad Magic said:

 

You have not got a clue what you are talking about sunshine.

 

Pick that mask up on your way out.

 

Theres a good boy.

:cornette_dog:

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Hearts1975
4 hours ago, Vlad Magic said:

 

You have not got a clue what you are talking about sunshine.

 

Pick that mask up on your way out.

 

Theres a good boy.

I’ve got more of a clue than someone who knows nothing about me jumping up and down in the background packing away at their keyboard crying infiltrator and because I’m defending Sergio’s tenure as a manager over Levein and with another poster

 

The same Sergio that masterminded a 5-1 masterclass in the SCF to our little vermin neighbours down the road in the same season I am defending him in .. that makes sense right enough

 

Sorry to cleanse your wee erection that must have popped up but you couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m 40 plus years supporting Hearts so just do one with the mask comments, ok?

 

It’s a forum, and if you disagree with me debate what I’m saying rather than act like an idiot and try and get personal. Shite patter in all honesty 

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