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Levein’s time is up...

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jambali
2 hours ago, Olly Lee's left boot said:

 

 

Not one person has accepted the last 6 months. 

Everyone agrees it's been poor, but getting to the final was good. 

 

The difference of opinion is in the best way forward-

 

Some, like myself feel that CL made a little progress last season and feel that with his team built over two years will take us further forward. Some also understand that our injuries to many key players negatively effected our season whilst also accepting  that we did not react well enough or have enough balance to compensate and we need to do better. 

 

Others, like yourself feel that the best way forward is to get a new management team and start again with a new philosophy, team and players. 

 

That is the difference of opinion. It's also 100% welcome. 

 

What is frustrating for me anyway, is that now that CL is staying, some can't get over it and Continue their repetitive ramblings making jkb a chore. 

Every thread goes the same way. 

 

As ios says as well, some of the patter is very hibs. 

 

 

 

He's been in charge for 5

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Inch Hearts
2 minutes ago, Haken said:

Clarke's tactic was to sit back and hit on the break.  It was effective for Kille and got got them above us two seasons on the trot.  If Levein were to adopt that approach wholesale, he'd be lambasted for it on here.

 

My issue with us, and it's been there since Neilson, is that we still appear to look at teams and try to nullify their strengths rather than attack their weaknesses.  Instead of thinking, 'how can we beat Hamilton?', I'd like us to have the midset of 'how many are we going to beat Hamilton by?'.

 

He wouldn’t be lambasted for it if it actually worked and the team kicked above their weight.

 

I agree with the rest, the mentality has seemed to be all wrong. 

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Inch Hearts
1 minute ago, soonbe110 said:

Poor example then because he was never available to us. You could have used Guardiola as an example 

 

He was unemployed.  How exactly would he have been unavailable? 

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Smith's right boot
1 minute ago, Haken said:

Clarke's tactic was to sit back and hit on the break.  It was effective for Kille and got got them above us two seasons on the trot.  If Levein were to adopt that approach wholesale, he'd be lambasted for it on here.

 

My issue with us, and it's been there since Neilson, is that we still appear to look at teams and try to nullify their strengths rather than attack their weaknesses.  Instead of thinking, 'how can we beat Hamilton?', I'd like us to have the midset of 'how many are we going to beat Hamilton by?'.

 

 

Agree 1st part. 

 

Second part I disagree, when we had a generally fit squad we went to win games, we just had little creativity and at certain points little options upfront. 

 

Even using your Hamilton example 

 

1st game away we beat them 4-1, months letter with a depleted, low confidence side they beat us 1-0.

 

I think he can overthink away games v celtic, rangers too much but v the rest we tried to win games. 

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Smith's right boot
1 minute ago, jambali said:

He's been in charge for 5

 

 

Well on that he's done great. 

Championship to a cup final and top league in 5 years, all while funds go to the stand. 

👍

 

He's only built his team for two years. 

Also, Ann has been charge for 5 years, not Craig. 👍

 

 

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Smith's right boot
6 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

Fanbases of clubs who are underachieving yearly probably do, yes. 

 

 

Do they, aye? 

 

Anyway, you seem to get joy in exploring alternatives to CL. 

 

Completely Pointless imo as he's staying, but crack on. 

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soonbe110
1 minute ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

He was unemployed.  How exactly would he have been unavailable? 

He only came to Killie as a personal favour to his mate, Billy Bowie, and it was short term ie 6 months, contract. Last time I’m going to mention this because I have already done so several times over last few months. 

Im a Levein fan.  I think we should have done much better second half of last season. He shoulders much of that blame. We did have two good cup runs. He does give kids a chance. He has signed a number of good experienced players to give us a backbone. Needs a couple further signings to take us to level required. He is doing a great job with academy. We did have some extremely bad luck with injuries last season. He did have a heart attack midway through season. Playing style was questionable last season certainly not entertaining.  On balance he did enough to warrant one further year. I’d say the same regardless of whoever was manager last season, did enough for another year all things considered.  I think this will be his last season as head coach unless there are real signs of progress ie 3rd at worst in league, two cup runs. If we are not top three or four at Xmas and early exiters from league cup I’ll be wanting a replacement. 

As  for a replacement, good luck with that lottery entry. Not sure we could attract anyone guaranteed to do better given what we could pay. Can you give me any examples other than your fantasy hiring of Steve Clark? 

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Inch Hearts
12 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

He only came to Killie as a personal favour to his mate, Billy Bowie, and it was short term ie 6 months, contract. Last time I’m going to mention this because I have already done so several times over last few months. 

Im a Levein fan.  I think we should have done much better second half of last season. He shoulders much of that blame. We did have two good cup runs. He does give kids a chance. He has signed a number of good experienced players to give us a backbone. Needs a couple further signings to take us to level required. He is doing a great job with academy. We did have some extremely bad luck with injuries last season. He did have a heart attack midway through season. Playing style was questionable last season certainly not entertaining.  On balance he did enough to warrant one further year. I’d say the same regardless of whoever was manager last season, did enough for another year all things considered.  I think this will be his last season as head coach unless there are real signs of progress ie 3rd at worst in league, two cup runs. If we are not top three or four at Xmas and early exiters from league cup I’ll be wanting a replacement. 

As  for a replacement, good luck with that lottery entry. Not sure we could attract anyone guaranteed to do better given what we could pay. Can you give me any examples other than your fantasy hiring of Steve Clark? 

 

So you are assuming he took the Killie job as a favour to a mate and wasn’t interested in working in football whatsoever?

 

Last six months?  Try 20 months out of 24 in charge.  

 

Theres always 100s of excuses as to why it’s not gone right.  He’s the hearts equivalent of Pat Fenlon at the moment pish poor league glossed over a wee bit by a cup run or two while ultimately achieving nothing at all.  

 

As for a replacement, it would depend on how it’s structured as to who the job would attract, it it’s under the strict guidance of Levein going back to Director of Football it might be a struggle, if not the third biggest club in the country wouldn’t struggle to attract a very high calibre of manager especially if you consider the position of the club off the pitch. 

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Inch Hearts
22 minutes ago, Olly Lee's left boot said:

 

 

Do they, aye? 

 

Anyway, you seem to get joy in exploring alternatives to CL. 

 

Completely Pointless imo as he's staying, but crack on. 

 

I do? I like to point out there’s alternatives to your god out there.

 

Yes, he’s staying, let’s hope he overachieves for the first season in about ten years now. 

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Bellion
30 minutes ago, Haken said:

Clarke's tactic was to sit back and hit on the break.  It was effective for Kille and got got them above us two seasons on the trot.  If Levein were to adopt that approach wholesale, he'd be lambasted for it on here.

 

My issue with us, and it's been there since Neilson, is that we still appear to look at teams and try to nullify their strengths rather than attack their weaknesses.  Instead of thinking, 'how can we beat Hamilton?', I'd like us to have the midset of 'how many are we going to beat Hamilton by?'.

 

That second bit is spot on (although I don’t think we were guilty of that under Cathro. I am not defending Cathro, obviously).  It was especially bad last year.  We became so reactive and were switching formations every other week to try and negate the opposition.  

 

Not that he was ever an option for us, but I agree about Clarke too.  He has only ever really played that one type of football, and it’s been impressive at places like West Brom and Killie where they’re up against teams with much bigger budgets.  Killie were pretty dismal to watch for most of the last two years, but nobody focused on it because the results were so good.  Not knocking Clarke because he obviously did really well with them, but watching that style of football every week wouldn’t have been acceptable to most on here.

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Stephen Muddie

This thread's latest descent into unreadable gash is precisely why I feel that Levein should've walked or been bumped after the final. Here we are already into the season, 2 wins albeit one on pens, and here we are today, Groundhog Day, arguing about a future that nobody can confidently predict and a past that we can't change.

 

His continuation is putting a drift into the support, so instead of all looking forwards and being "united", we are here once again going through the same tired, inconclusive Internet BS routines. I'm one who wanted him to go but accepts he didn't and he is the appendage with which we must urinate. 

 

Props to the debating styles employed guys (in both tribes) :bravo:

 

It's really, really unsettling that jkb reminds me of bbc interviewers. "So, up is up, so what you are saying is down with down?"

"No that's not what I said exactly."

"Down with down, can you confirm that's your position? "

"I said up is up."

"Down with down then?"

"No"

"ANSWER THE QUESTION. So you are admitting that down is halfway up and you plan on deporting down?"

"If you say so."

"Ah-ha! I knew it!"

*just in - X ADMITS DOWN WILL BE SENT TO CONCENTRATION CAMPS. Up claimed as up*

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soonbe110
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

So you are assuming he took the Killie job as a favour to a mate and wasn’t interested in working in football whatsoever?

 

Last six months?  Try 20 months out of 24 in charge.  

 

Theres always 100s of excuses as to why it’s not gone right.  He’s the hearts equivalent of Pat Fenlon at the moment pish poor league glossed over a wee bit by a cup run or two while ultimately achieving nothing at all.  

 

As for a replacement, it would depend on how it’s structured as to who the job would attract, it it’s under the strict guidance of Levein going back to Director of Football it might be a struggle, if not the third biggest club in the country wouldn’t struggle to attract a very high calibre of manager especially if you consider the position of the club off the pitch. 

No, he was unemployed after losing a couple of jobs. He took the Killie job because of his personal relationship with Bowie - his words not mine. 

Re replacement, as always, just slag the current incumbent without having any alternative suggestions except whataboutery comments. Again I’ll say it, name names that you think we could attract that are guaranteed to do better. Clocks ticking. 

Ill give you a head start, other than Levein, Gerard and McInnes no one currently in Scottish football. Let’s hear some names. 

Edited by soonbe110

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Inch Hearts
Just now, soonbe110 said:

No, he was unemployed after losing a coiled of jobs. He took the Killie job because of his personal relationship with Bowie - his words not mine. 

Re replacement, as always, just slag the current incumbent without having any alternative suggestions except whataboutery comments. Again I’ll say it, name names that you think we could attract that are guaranteed to do better. Clocks ticking. 

Ill give you a head start, other than Levein, Gerard and McInnes no one currently in Scottish football. Let’s hear some names. 

 

Yes, Kilmarnock are small fry compared to hearts though, if hearts asked him the question before he went to Killie I have no reason to think he would turn the job down as he was out of work. 

There’s no guarantees in football.  If it’s under Craig Levein as director of football I would try and get Tony Docherty to come in, yes he’s an assistant but a very good one and many see him as the brains behind the operation at Aberdeen.  Outside of Scotland and if given a free reign as manager with Levein concentrating on other areas of the footballing side I would suggest Gary Rowett, Chris Coleman, Gus Poyet, Paul Clement or Danny Cowley. 

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Bellion
2 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

Yes, Kilmarnock are small fry compared to hearts though, if hearts asked him the question before he went to Killie I have no reason to think he would turn the job down as he was out of work. 

There’s no guarantees in football.  If it’s under Craig Levein as director of football I would try and get Tony Docherty to come in, yes he’s an assistant but a very good one and many see him as the brains behind the operation at Aberdeen.  Outside of Scotland and if given a free reign as manager with Levein concentrating on other areas of the footballing side I would suggest Gary Rowett, Chris Coleman, Gus Poyet, Paul Clement or Danny Cowley. 

There is no way we'd get close to any of those names at the moment.  I know you don't ask, don't get, etc., but none of them would come near us, barring an enormous cash injection or a solid couple of years of unemployment.  

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Inch Hearts
2 minutes ago, Bellion said:

There is no way we'd get close to any of those names at the moment.  I know you don't ask, don't get, etc., but none of them would come near us, barring an enormous cash injection or a solid couple of years of unemployment.  

 

Im not sure why, they are the tier above the level Killie and Hibs where attracting. All of them could look at Steve Clarke as how it’s an pathway back to the upper regions of English club management or international management. 

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Bellion
2 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

Im not sure why, they are the tier above the level Killie and Hibs where attracting. All of them could look at Steve Clarke as how it’s an pathway back to the upper regions of English club management or international management. 

I can tell you don't want to hear it, but the Clarke example is an outlier because of his long-term family links to Killie.  Managers with no connection to Hearts are not going to feel similarly about a club in our league with our budget.  It's not that attractive a prospect, unless you have those ties.   

 

As for the names you mentioned, Clement and Poyet have bounced around the top 5 leagues in Europe, Poyet having had the odd lucrative spell in Greece or China at clubs who'll have paid him bucketloads more than we could dream of.  Coleman has made a couple of bad choices lately, but a couple of years ago he was flying.  He's a big name and he's not within our reach at the moment.  

 

Rowett and Cowley are established names in England.  Their next job will be at a Championship club or a fallen giant in League One; either way the wage budget will dwarf ours.  There is a reason Hibs were shopping in the Heckingbottom/Paul Hurst/Michael Appleton aisle rather than the types of names you're talking about.  If you've no connection to Scotland, it's a similar sized job.  

 

Honestly, whether you want a new manager or not, those are not the types of names we are going to attract.  Might as well be realistic about it. 

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Inch Hearts
2 minutes ago, Bellion said:

I can tell you don't want to hear it, but the Clarke example is an outlier because of his long-term family links to Killie.  Managers with no connection to Hearts are not going to feel similarly about a club in our league with our budget.  It's not that attractive a prospect, unless you have those ties.   

 

As for the names you mentioned, Clement and Poyet have bounced around the top 5 leagues in Europe, Poyet having had the odd lucrative spell in Greece or China at clubs who'll have paid him bucketloads more than we could dream of.  Coleman has made a couple of bad choices lately, but a couple of years ago he was flying.  He's a big name and he's not within our reach at the moment.  

 

Rowett and Cowley are established names in England.  Their next job will be at a Championship club or a fallen giant in League One; either way the wage budget will dwarf ours.  There is a reason Hibs were shopping in the Heckingbottom/Paul Hurst/Michael Appleton aisle rather than the types of names you're talking about.  If you've no connection to Scotland, it's a similar sized job.  

 

Honestly, whether you want a new manager or not, those are not the types of names we are going to attract.  Might as well be realistic about it. 

 

Killie are a level below us though, I’m not sure why Clarke wouldn’t have been attracted to the Hearts managerial position before Killie as he wasn’t going anywhere fast.  

Poyet and Clement fair enough but just suggestions, Coleman and Rowett have been sacked from their last good few jobs and could see hearts as a pathway to the English shop windows again while piting themselves up against the Glasgow high profile teams just as Burley did.  There will be agents all over the shop trying to get their clients a new managerial position it’s all about choosing the correct fit and giving them the free reign to concentrate on first team matters. 

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soonbe110
26 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

Yes, Kilmarnock are small fry compared to hearts though, if hearts asked him the question before he went to Killie I have no reason to think he would turn the job down as he was out of work. 

There’s no guarantees in football.  If it’s under Craig Levein as director of football I would try and get Tony Docherty to come in, yes he’s an assistant but a very good one and many see him as the brains behind the operation at Aberdeen.  Outside of Scotland and if given a free reign as manager with Levein concentrating on other areas of the footballing side I would suggest Gary Rowett, Chris Coleman, Gus Poyet, Paul Clement or Danny Cowley. 

Other than Docherty you are dreaming if you think we could attract any interest from those financially. Similarly, other than Cowley, they all have managerial records of failure with the odd success thrown in. Exactly the criticism you have of Levein seemingly. 

Why would Budge hire Docherty? Any sensible business owner wouldn’t fire their main employee unless they were nearly 100% certain that the replacement would be guaranteed to do better. Otherwise why take the risk.  Your comment ‘many see him as the brains’ suggest that if indeed many do you are not one of them. What basis is there for that assumption and if it’s close to being true why is he still number 2 at an outpost like Aberdeen? 

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Icon of Symmetry
4 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

Killie are a level below us though, I’m not sure why Clarke wouldn’t have been attracted to the Hearts managerial position before Killie as he wasn’t going anywhere fast.  

Poyet and Clement fair enough but just suggestions, Coleman and Rowett have been sacked from their last good few jobs and could see hearts as a pathway to the English shop windows again while piting themselves up against the Glasgow high profile teams just as Burley did.  There will be agents all over the shop trying to get their clients a new managerial position it’s all about choosing the correct fit and giving them the free reign to concentrate on first team matters. 

 

Whenever I read your posts, all I see is a man pining for the old boom and bust disposable managers ripping up and starting again every season system. A system that has been utterly abysmal at achieving any success over the last few decades. What Levein is attempting to do is worth seeing through, imo. I'd rather we built up the infrastructure and academy, and actually tried to keep a sustainable model in place for years to come. Levein's work in building up the academy will pay dividends in the future, but all you are interested in is getting someone in to manage the club in the hope of short term success and launching them if they don't achieve it, moving on to the next man. It's an utterly shit system that really hasn't paid off like it should over the years.

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Bellion
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

Killie are a level below us though, I’m not sure why Clarke wouldn’t have been attracted to the Hearts managerial position before Killie as he wasn’t going anywhere fast.  

Poyet and Clement fair enough but just suggestions, Coleman and Rowett have been sacked from their last good few jobs and could see hearts as a pathway to the English shop windows again while piting themselves up against the Glasgow high profile teams just as Burley did.  There will be agents all over the shop trying to get their clients a new managerial position it’s all about choosing the correct fit and giving them the free reign to concentrate on first team matters. 

Agree with the last part, except managers 'above' our level are not going to have their agents calling up any club with a vacancy.  If you've a skilled track record in something, you lose your job but get a massive pay-out meaning you're OK financially, you don't accept literally the first thing that comes along, right?  You try to get something you think is worth your while.

 

If I was Gary Rowett right now (for example) I would be thinking that six Championship jobs are going to become available before Christmas and I've got a good chance of getting one of them.  So why would I want to go to a country where I've never worked, to manage a club that has a much smaller budget and crowds than the last three I've managed, and where the money will be much worse than what I'm used to?    

 

I don't think Clarke was coming back to Scotland if Kilmarnock hadn't been in trouble and really wanted him.  We'll never know, but there were other jobs available around the same time and he was never linked with any of them.  It was an enormous coup for them at the time.     

Edited by Bellion

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sadj
5 hours ago, Hearts1975 said:

Sadj, I really enjoy reading your posts and have respect for what you say as you are always balanced and clear in the points that you make 

 

I just take issue slightly with what you say above and in respect of the “Levein Out Brigade” having no willingness to concede there may be reasons or a bigger picture

 

its like saying the “Levein In Brigade” have no willingness to see that there may be issues with the manager and brainwashed into thinking everything will come good 

 

Now, I would take umbrage with both statements as I don’t think everyone in each camp is either one or the other

 

I think there are posters on either side who do remain balanced and love/support the club through and through 

 

I agree that just criticising with no reason doesn’t help at times but I think if there is fair and a rationale for debate and the points put forward are reasonable then consideration should be called for and the points debated properly between both sides 👍

 

Thank you and yeah fair play , was more just making a point about the hypocrisy of the original post. There is more give I think on the non Levein out side than the Levein out side. 

 

My reasoning for that is that a lot of the loudest shouting Levein out posters tend to be unable to concede there may be reasons for things or there is a bigger picture , whereas the Levein staying side tend to sit more on the lines of we had injuries , bad luck etc that left us unbalanced in the squad also (roughly 13points were lost to avoidable errors from a player or officials) and without those we would of finished higher , certainly they feel that we need to do well this season and the questions will be asked if we don’t. The background stuff at the club is often used to beat Levein aswell despite the fact that some of the Out posters can even give credit there (Enzo at times etc) 

 

There is , i would say 1 or 2 who are unable to admit Levein or the club have any issues at times and a much larger group who just refuse to see any positives or give the club any leeway. 

 

As you say a fair and reasoned debate is a good thing and in between the shout louder than the next person posters there is plenty who can do that properly. 

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sadj
1 hour ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

So you are assuming he took the Killie job as a favour to a mate and wasn’t interested in working in football whatsoever?

 

Last six months?  Try 20 months out of 24 in charge.  

 

Theres always 100s of excuses as to why it’s not gone right.  He’s the hearts equivalent of Pat Fenlon at the moment pish poor league glossed over a wee bit by a cup run or two while ultimately achieving nothing at all.  

 

As for a replacement, it would depend on how it’s structured as to who the job would attract, it it’s under the strict guidance of Levein going back to Director of Football it might be a struggle, if not the third biggest club in the country wouldn’t struggle to attract a very high calibre of manager especially if you consider the position of the club off the pitch. 

 

Not read the rest of your post but that part is not an assumption it was well documented at the time that his brother asked him to come and help sort the mess at killie out and he did for them , it was never a long term job and he would only leave for Scotland or to move back south as he doesn’t want to be up here permanently as his family is down south

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
2 hours ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

At least he had the guts to fight a losing battle in a no win situation so fair play to him for that. 

 

Didn’t really fight it though did he. Gave up early doors

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Inch Hearts
1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

Other than Docherty you are dreaming if you think we could attract any interest from those financially. Similarly, other than Cowley, they all have managerial records of failure with the odd success thrown in. Exactly the criticism you have of Levein seemingly. 

Why would Budge hire Docherty? Any sensible business owner wouldn’t fire their main employee unless they were nearly 100% certain that the replacement would be guaranteed to do better. Otherwise why take the risk.  Your comment ‘many see him as the brains’ suggest that if indeed many do you are not one of them. What basis is there for that assumption and if it’s close to being true why is he still number 2 at an outpost like Aberdeen? 

 

Docherty could be a good fit under Levein as director of football.  Surely a better shout than Jon Daly or Macphee?  

 

My criticism of Levein is he’s not been able to take the team forward while playing mainly conservative football.  He’s had his shot and it’s not been successful and it’s time for someone new to come in with fresh ideas and let him concentrate on the wonderful job doing in the academy. 

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Inch Hearts
1 hour ago, Bellion said:

Agree with the last part, except managers 'above' our level are not going to have their agents calling up any club with a vacancy.  If you've a skilled track record in something, you lose your job but get a massive pay-out meaning you're OK financially, you don't accept literally the first thing that comes along, right?  You try to get something you think is worth your while.

 

If I was Gary Rowett right now (for example) I would be thinking that six Championship jobs are going to become available before Christmas and I've got a good chance of getting one of them.  So why would I want to go to a country where I've never worked, to manage a club that has a much smaller budget and crowds than the last three I've managed, and where the money will be much worse than what I'm used to?    

 

I don't think Clarke was coming back to Scotland if Kilmarnock hadn't been in trouble and really wanted him.  We'll never know, but there were other jobs available around the same time and he was never linked with any of them.  It was an enormous coup for them at the time.     

 

If it’s a case of waiting for something worthwhile and not 100% financial because they have made money while being sacked then the hearts job would be a interesting project imo.  I do get what you are saying though. 

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Inch Hearts
1 hour ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Whenever I read your posts, all I see is a man pining for the old boom and bust disposable managers ripping up and starting again every season system. A system that has been utterly abysmal at achieving any success over the last few decades. What Levein is attempting to do is worth seeing through, imo. I'd rather we built up the infrastructure and academy, and actually tried to keep a sustainable model in place for years to come. Levein's work in building up the academy will pay dividends in the future, but all you are interested in is getting someone in to manage the club in the hope of short term success and launching them if they don't achieve it, moving on to the next man. It's an utterly shit system that really hasn't paid off like it should over the years.

 

You can separate the academy and the first team managerial position.

 

The academy work it’s not coming together to hopefully heavily enhance the first team in years to come and there’s nobody who should get more praise for this than Craig Levein and the wonderful structure that’s been put into place.  That doesn’t mean it should be ignored that as manager of the first team it’s been a overall failure both in terms of league progression but style of play in the first team also.  I’m not one for wanting Levein gone from the club as that would be a disaster but you can’t just let him keep getting chance after chance with excuse after excuse just for continuity sakes or because of the sterling work he does in other areas of the footballing side of the club. 

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Icon of Symmetry
1 minute ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

You can separate the academy and the first team managerial position.

 

The academy work it’s not coming together to hopefully heavily enhance the first team in years to come and there’s nobody who should get more praise for this than Craig Levein and the wonderful structure that’s been put into place.  That doesn’t mean it should be ignored that as manager of the first team it’s been a overall failure both in terms of league progression but style of play in the first team also.  I’m not one for wanting Levein gone from the club as that would be a disaster but you can’t just let him keep getting chance after chance with excuse after excuse just for continuity sakes or because of the sterling work he does in other areas of the footballing side of the club. 

 

Apologies then, I have been gleaning from your posts that you want him removed as DoF too. This is the last season that he is contracted as first team manager. You will get your wish for next season unless something big happens between now and then. I think we should probably wait until we see who gets the job before we write them off or criticise the appointment.

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Inch Hearts
5 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Apologies then, I have been gleaning from your posts that you want him removed as DoF too. This is the last season that he is contracted as first team manager. You will get your wish for next season unless something big happens between now and then. I think we should probably wait until we see who gets the job before we write them off or criticise the appointment.

 

No bother.  No I don’t want him removed in full capacity, I wouldn’t be against him leaving dof if it helps attract a higher calibre of manager but it’s neither here nor there for me at the moment. 

 

Most definitely, unless another complete disaster like Cathro new guy should get tome to implement his own players, style and ways to the team when that time comes, just like Craig has in his 2 years so far. 

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Bellion
Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

If it’s a case of waiting for something worthwhile and not 100% financial because they have made money while being sacked then the hearts job would be a interesting project imo.  I do get what you are saying though. 

 

I agree it will be interesting for someone, but just for example, Rowett, Coleman and Cowley are all up there with the favourites for the Sheff Wed job.  Given the choice, nobody neutral is going to pick Hearts in their current state over Sheff Wed. 

 

The Rowetts and Colemans of the world will know that 5 or 6 similar jobs will come up over the next 6 months, so why not hang on for a chance at those.  Wait for Forest's owner to throw another wobbly or for Swansea or Boro's fans to get restless with an unproven manager.  The turnover rate for managers at that level is astonishing, so if you get the job, you either succeed or you get an enormous pay-off when they bin you. 

 

In those circumstances, no way we are interesting enough to get a big name in our current state.  Two years down the line, if Rowett or Coleman haven't got a job between now and then, or they get one and it doesn't work out, maybe they'd contemplate a move to us, but not right now. 

 

I get that loads of people want a change - I voted Levein out in the poll at the end of last season - but even if we got rid of him tomorrow, which we won't, it wouldn't be a case of hand-picking someone with a decent record at a higher level.  We need to be honest about that. 

Edited by Bellion

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Icon of Symmetry
1 minute ago, Bellion said:

 

I agree it will be interesting for someone, but just for example, Rowett, Coleman and Cowley are all up there with the favourites for the Sheff Wed job.  Given the choice, nobody neutral is going to pick Hearts in their current state over Sheff Wed. 

 

The Rowetts and Colemans of the world will know that 5 or 6 similar jobs will come up over the next 6 months, so why not hang on for a chance at those.  Wait for Forest's owner to throw another wobbly or for Swansea or Boro's fans to get restless with an unproven manager.  The turnover rate for managers at that level is astonishing, so if you get the job, you either succeed or you get an enormous pay-off when they bin you. 

 

In those circumstances, no way we are interesting enough to get a big name in current circumstances.  Two years down the line, if Rowett or Coleman haven't got a job between now and then, or they get one and it doesn't work out, maybe they'd contemplate a move to us, but not right now. 

 

I get that loads of people want a change - I voted Levein out in the poll at the end of last season - but even if we got rid of him tomorrow, which we won't, it wouldn't be a case of hand-picking someone with a decent record at a higher level.  We need to be honest about that. 

 

If we did manage to get one of these guys in they would only be here for a short period of time and be off like a shot for the next English Championship job that came up. Then it's back to the managerial merry-go-round again, and the boom and bust approach that has utterly failed us the majority of my time watching Hearts. I just want us to see our new approach through to completion. I don't want to abandon the plan part way through.

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Inch Hearts
1 minute ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

If we did manage to get one of these guys in they would only be here for a short period of time and be off like a shot for the next English Championship job that came up. Then it's back to the managerial merry-go-round again, and the boom and bust approach that has utterly failed us the majority of my time watching Hearts. I just want us to see our new approach through to completion. I don't want to abandon the plan part way through.

 

Any successful manager is going to be taken away.  Neilson even thought MK Dons was progression. 

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Inch Hearts
9 minutes ago, Bellion said:

 

I agree it will be interesting for someone, but just for example, Rowett, Coleman and Cowley are all up there with the favourites for the Sheff Wed job.  Given the choice, nobody neutral is going to pick Hearts in their current state over Sheff Wed. 

 

The Rowetts and Colemans of the world will know that 5 or 6 similar jobs will come up over the next 6 months, so why not hang on for a chance at those.  Wait for Forest's owner to throw another wobbly or for Swansea or Boro's fans to get restless with an unproven manager.  The turnover rate for managers at that level is astonishing, so if you get the job, you either succeed or you get an enormous pay-off when they bin you. 

 

In those circumstances, no way we are interesting enough to get a big name in our current state.  Two years down the line, if Rowett or Coleman haven't got a job between now and then, or they get one and it doesn't work out, maybe they'd contemplate a move to us, but not right now. 

 

I get that loads of people want a change - I voted Levein out in the poll at the end of last season - but even if we got rid of him tomorrow, which we won't, it wouldn't be a case of hand-picking someone with a decent record at a higher level.  We need to be honest about that. 

 

I think you are underselling hearts in terms of who they could attract and who may be interested in the position but maybe I’m just a little deluded 👍

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Bellion
Just now, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

If we did manage to get one of these guys in they would only be here for a short period of time and be off like a shot for the next English Championship job that came up. Then it's back to the managerial merry-go-round again, and the boom and bust approach that has utterly failed us the majority of my time watching Hearts. I just want us to see our new approach through to completion. I don't want to abandon the plan part way through.

 

Probably, except coming here in the first place would hurt their chances of getting a Championship job because (a) it complicates negotiations and (b) it looks like an odd move for them.  If you see yourself as a top class manager who deserves to be managing a squad containing 10+ internationals in front of 30,000 every week, why are you taking a job in Scotland?  I'm not trying to knock our league, but it looks different to an outsider.  

 

We also have to be honest about the fact that it would be really difficult to over-achieve to the extent that anyone would take any notice.  Success would be 3rd and a cup run in circumstances where we have the 4th/5th biggest budget and where two clubs are so rich that you can't get near them.  It was easier for Clarke to do what he did at Killie than it would be for a manager to do an equivalent job here.  We demand a lot.  

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Icon of Symmetry
Just now, Inch Hearts said:

 

Any successful manager is going to be taken away.  Neilson even thought MK Dons was progression. 

 

Look what happened when he did leave, we appointed a new head coach and he got rid of almost all the squad and it didn't work out. Then when he left, we had to get rid of all of them and rebuild again. The only constant throughout that was the academy players and Levein. For me I'd like to see us produce good coaches that can lead the team, but a team that is made up predominantly with players that have have come through our own academy, with just a small number of good external additions on top. These players can come from wherever the head coach wants, but I don't want to see us bringing in entire first team squads each season, and then changing manager and doing the same again. If we do tweak the system and bring in head coaches from outwith our own set-up, then I want them to work with what we have for the most part, and to only have to bring in a small number of players of exceptional quality from elsewhere. If we do this, then hopefully we will avoid the revolving door on the dressing room scenario that has totally failed us time and time again.

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Icon of Symmetry
6 minutes ago, Bellion said:

 

Probably, except coming here in the first place would hurt their chances of getting a Championship job because (a) it complicates negotiations and (b) it looks like an odd move for them.  If you see yourself as a top class manager who deserves to be managing a squad containing 10+ internationals in front of 30,000 every week, why are you taking a job in Scotland?  I'm not trying to knock our league, but it looks different to an outsider.  

 

We also have to be honest about the fact that it would be really difficult to over-achieve to the extent that anyone would take any notice.  Success would be 3rd and a cup run in circumstances where we have the 4th/5th biggest budget and where two clubs are so rich that you can't get near them.  It was easier for Clarke to do what he did at Killie than it would be for a manager to do an equivalent job here.  We demand a lot.  

 

All of which makes a case for avoiding going down that route imo.

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Inch Hearts
10 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

All of which makes a case for avoiding going down that route imo.

 

What route would you like to go down then?  Someone who hasn’t ambitions to manage at a higher level but is good enough to progress the playing side of things? 

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Icon of Symmetry
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

What route would you like to go down then?  Someone who hasn’t ambitions to manage at a higher level but is good enough to progress the playing side of things? 

 

Probably someone who is happy to work with the resources we have in terms of players, and only bringing in a small number of their own picks from elsewhere. That person wouldn’t necessarily have to come through our current set up, but it probably helps. Obviously they will want to move on in future, but I don’t want us to have to deconstruct their mess every time if it goes tits up. It’s the constant rebuilding that I don’t like. 

 

Inwant our head head coaches to be picked on their ability to manage and coach, not because they ‘have contacts’ or whatever.

 

Edited by Icon of Symmetry

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Enzo Chiefo
Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Look what happened when he did leave, we appointed a new head coach and he got rid of almost all the squad and it didn't work out. Then when he left, we had to get rid of all of them and rebuild again. The only constant throughout that was the academy players and Levein. For me I'd like to see us produce good coaches that can lead the team, but a team that is made up predominantly with players that have have come through our own academy, with just a small number of good external additions on top. These players can come from wherever the head coach wants, but I don't want to see us bringing in entire first team squads each season, and then changing manager and doing the same again. If we do tweak the system and bring in head coaches from outwith our own set-up, then I want them to work with what we have for the most part, and to only have to bring in a small number of players of exceptional quality from elsewhere. If we do this, then hopefully we will avoid the revolving door on the dressing room scenario that has totally failed us time and time again.

The huge turnover of players has continued from Neilson to Cathro through to Levein. Cathro came mid season so his first real transfer window saw the  spine of the present team being created...Berra, Souttar (signed by Neilson) , Michael Smith and he also bought Kyle Lafferty  and Goncalves. For every Struna , Tziolis and Sowah that was moved on from Cathro's era  Levein has bought and moved on a Callaghan, Amankwaa, and Vanacek after barely a frw months. It's not correct to cite Cathro as the source of our problems as we have been in a constant state of turnover for 5 years now. The midfield conundrum has still not been solved and we're very light in that area. We made a mess of the goalkeeping situation under Neilson and we're arguably still needing a decent keeper now, albeit Jon McLaughlin was brilliant in the season he was here. Cathro is simply a scaoegoat for a lot of the problems we have had and still have.

Edited by Enzo Chiefo

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It should have been ten

Surely about time the mods put this thread to bed.

People still replying to the roasters, trolls and hobos you’re only wasting your time and energy. 

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ToqueJambo
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The huge turnover of players has continued from Neilson to Cathro through to Levein. Cathro came mid season so his first real transfer window saw the  spine of the present team being created...Berra, Souttar (signed by Neilson) , Michael Smith and he also bought Kyle Lafferty  and Goncalves. For every Struna , Tziolis and Sowah that was moved on from Cathro's era  Levein has bought and moved on a Callaghan, Amankwaa, and Vanacek after barely a frw months. It's not correct to cite Cathro as the source of our problems as we have been in a constant state of turnover for 5 years now. The midfield conundrum has still not been solved and we're very light in that area. We made a mess of the goalkeeping situation under Neilson and we're arguably still needing a decent keeper now, albeit Jon McLaughlin was brilliant in the season he was here. Cathro is simply a scaoegoat for a lot of the problems we have had and still have.

 

The "huge" turnover we've had is no different from any club with two new managers coming in. Look at Hibs since Lennon left, or Hibs when Stubbs left. Or Rangers the last few years. The reasons for our turnover are very clear. If we'd been a Premiership team the whole time with, say, two managers, and not one recovering from admin, with 3 managers, our turnover would have been more similar to previous years.

 

Post-admin team - needed rebuilt (excellent job)

Post-championship team - needed strengthening for the Premiership (good job)

Post-Euro qualification team - needed strengthening to maintain 3rd and compete in Europe (we arguably didn't recruit well enough with a couple of exceptions)

Neilson leaving, Cathro starting - Cathro bulldozed the squad for no reason, but did put in place some of the current spine (poor recruitment with a couple of exceptions)

Cathro leaving, Levein starting - major surgery needed, including building that spine (some very good signings, some stop-gaps)

Levein 2nd season - added to spine, more targeted signings, getting rid of some dead wood (very good until squad decimated by injuries)

Levein 3rd season - targeted recruitment in key positions, getting rid of last of deadwood (looks good so far)

 

In case you hadn't noticed, turnover is considerably less this close season Why is that do you think? Could it be the stability you get from sticking with a manager and building around a solid spine.

Edited by ToqueJambo

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ToqueJambo
1 minute ago, It should have been ten said:

Surely about time the mods put this thread to bed.

People still replying to the roasters, trolls and hobos you’re only wasting your time and energy. 

 

I should have read your post before replying haha

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Inch Hearts
50 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Probably someone who is happy to work with the resources we have in terms of players, and only bringing in a small number of their own picks from elsewhere. That person wouldn’t necessarily have to come through our current set up, but it probably helps. Obviously they will want to move on in future, but I don’t want us to have to deconstruct their mess every time if it goes tits up. It’s the constant rebuilding that I don’t like. 

 

Inwant our head head coaches to be picked on their ability to manage and coach, not because they ‘have contacts’ or whatever.

 

👍

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Enzo Chiefo
11 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

The "huge" turnover we've had is no different from any club with two new managers coming in. Look at Hibs since Lennon left, or Hibs when Stubbs left. Or Rangers the last few years. The reasons for our turnover are very clear. If we'd been a Premiership team the whole time with, say, two managers, and not one recovering from admin, with 3 managers, our turnover would have been more similar to previous years.

 

Post-admin team - needed rebuilt (excellent job)

Post-championship team - needed strengthening for the Premiership (good job)

Post-Euro qualification team - needed strengthening to maintain 3rd and compete in Europe (we arguably didn't recruit well enough with a couple of exceptions)

Neilson leaving, Cathro starting - Cathro bulldozed the squad for no reason, but did put in place some of the current spine (poor recruitment with a couple of exceptions)

Cathro leaving, Levein starting - major surgery needed, including building that spine (some very good signings, some stop-gaps)

Levein 2nd season - added to spine, more targeted signings, getting rid of some dead wood (very good until squad decimated by injuries)

Levein 3rd season - targeted recruitment in key positions, getting rid of last of deadwood (looks good so far)

 

In case you hadn't noticed, turnover is considerably less this close season Why is that do you think? Could it be the stability you get from sticking with a manager and building around a solid spine.

Far too simplistic a way to assess our signings over the last few years. Cathro only had the January transfer window barely 4 weeks after he arrived. He didn't have many options and was let down badly by some of the players. He also lost Patterson and Souttar to injury. He also made some poor signings too. In the summer, he added part of the spine of our present team, Michael Smith and Berra. Neilson, Cathro and Levein all bulldozed teams with a lot of the replacements being no better than their predecessors.  We have wasted a lot of money on some players that have given us nothing in return. Oshaniwa, Martin and Vanacek being the most obvious examples, signed by Neilson, Cathro and Levein respectively.  It was never going to be an option, after 19 signings last summer, to embark on another spending spree. Time will tell this season how our new signings fare but there is still a bit of deadwood at the club from last season's recruitment. 

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Prof
4 hours ago, davemclaren said:

Who has seriously challnged Celtic over the last few seasons?

Nobody and that’s the point. The income of Celtic and Deidco far exceeds the other clubs. So unless you match their spending or have an exceptional coach then it’s unlikely another team will win the league. A cup maybe.

 

4 hours ago, Artful Dodger said:

 

Can I ask what team in the SPFL or anywhere in Scotland for that matter that plays with this "attacking flair" that so many seem to want to aspire to?

 

 

We did under RN and under Alex McDonald. 

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sadj
6 minutes ago, Prof said:

Nobody and that’s the point. The income of Celtic and Deidco far exceeds the other clubs. So unless you match their spending or have an exceptional coach then it’s unlikely another team will win the league. A cup maybe.

 

We did under RN and under Alex McDonald. 

Under Robbie Neilson in the Premiership? Maybe until October/November did we **** after that

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It should have been ten
Posted (edited)

Dp

Edited by It should have been ten

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It should have been ten
1 hour ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

I should have read your post before replying haha

 

:lol:

 

You made some great points in your post mate but just feel they’re wasted on the likes of who you were replying to. Him/ her and his wee cronies can’t see past their pathetic hatred for our manager...either that or they’re clearly trolling.

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Boab
1 hour ago, It should have been ten said:

Surely about time the mods put this thread to bed.

People still replying to the roasters, trolls and hobos you’re only wasting your time and energy. 

 

They’ve probably got the whole sharabang on a collective Mod ignore !

😆

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Prof
58 minutes ago, sadj said:

Under Robbie Neilson in the Premiership? Maybe until October/November did we **** after that

Goals scored by Hearts in SPFL 2015-16 under RN was 59 , goal difference +19; last season under CL goals scored in SPFL was 42, goal difference -8. In the championship under RN we won first time with record points total, 21 ahead of second placed Hubz and a record goals total of 96. But hey why bother with facts.

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SpruceBringsteen

The number of times the season is brought up as something fantastic, I often wonder if some in the Hearts support wish we could get relegated so we could play plumbers and fishermen in the Championship again.

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