Steve Clarke Rant

[Peebo]

No one is serious about ending sectarian behaviour at football matches. It is the main fuel of the industry of Scottish Football.

 

The argument that the police can’t do anything about it at games is simply bullshit. Have they ever tried? If they are not able to take action which reduces such predictable outbreaks of illegal behaviour at events like football matches, the events shouldn’t be able to take place in their current form. In other words, try arresting some of the many offenders; if that doesn’t work, ban away fans or only allow games to take place behind closed doors. 

 

It is a societal problem, not just a football problem. But it’s somehow accepted that nothing can be done about it at football games, while instances in other situations would quickly be addressed. Why? Because sectarianism is so fundamental to the most influential clubs. 

 

As for Steve Clarke, get rid of Kirk Broadfoot, then I’ll take your points a bit more seriously. 

[Thomaso]

After his “3 big lumps” rant he has lost all credibility with me!

[Section Q]

23 hours ago, Agentjambo said:

Rangers the cancer or scottish football 

I think the problem is bigger than Rangers.

Anyone who has lived abroad for any length of time is likely to notice the catholic/protestant bigotry here in Scotland when/if they return. This Scottish brand of bigotry is unique to our country and sadly never far from football. I've heard our own fans contributing to it at times. Heavy penalties for these idiots and genuine efforts by the clubs to wipe it out is the only answer.

[kirkierobroy]

3 minutes ago, Section Q said:

This Scottish brand of bigotry is unique to our country

 

Cough, cough, Northern Ireland, cough, cough.

 

Curiously, he football identification is a major part of it. I speak as a churchgoer who has been called an Orange B and and Fenian B by Rangers/Celtic people who aren't. Mainly because that it was obvious that I didn't support their team.

[ri Alban]

17 hours ago, jake said:

Well done Stevie Clarke.

Bottom line.

This. It's time to shut stadia.  Clubs should be held responsible for this and when they are, it will stop.

[Forever Hearts]

His comments would have carried more weight if he'd came out and condemned the sectarian abuse directed towards his own captain last Sunday but for reasons only known to him he decided to keep schtum. 

 

As for the cure to the sectarian problems inside the stadiums? Start playing games behind closed doors and handing out SERIOUS financial penalties. Money is the only thing these clubs care about and if you start affecting their income they might start to tackle the problem instead of paying lip service to it. 

[ri Alban]

26 minutes ago, Forever Hearts said:

His comments would have carried more weight if he'd came out and condemned the sectarian abuse directed towards his own captain last Sunday but for reasons only known to him he decided to keep schtum. 

 

As for the cure to the sectarian problems inside the stadiums? Start playing games behind closed doors and handing out SERIOUS financial penalties. Money is the only thing these clubs care about and if you start affecting their income they might start to tackle the problem instead of paying lip service to it. 

He did. And it's more intimidating when they're right behind you.

[Nookie Bear]

9 hours ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

So presumably all those folk who were greeting about Budge trying to eliminate this sort of behaviour, will not be castigating the club for not acting now? 

 

The issue always surrounded her apparent unwillingness to restrict the old firm away support to its bare minimum because it would hit us financially. 

[Forever Hearts]

16 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

He did. And it's more intimidating when they're right behind you.

He didn't mention the chants aimed at Boyd and it took him until Tuesday to comment on the coin throwing. 

[Dazo]

10 hours ago, Jammy T said:

Incorrect

 

This happens and ‘society’ will soon start to sort things out...

 

In your opinion of course, maybe we can make a stand and ban all hearts supporters from Tynecastle ? Hopefully that exaggerated point shows it’s impossible to draw the line On which innocent supporters get banned and which don’t. For me I wouldn’t like to see innocent supporters punished because of others. 

 

Why cant the police go in and arrest or film then arrest/charge later a certain amount at a time ? Might take a while over several games/seasons but surely punishing those responsible is fairer. 

[Harry Potter]

8 hours ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

After his “3 big lumps” rant he has lost all credibility with me!

Thats where i am,  his dummy throwing after his defeat from us finished me.

[The Treasurer]

Turned on the TV this morning and Sky Sports were doing one of their "in depth" Scottish football features about the sectarian problem.

They had that voice of reason and neutrality Barry Ferguson slaving his one sided opinion.

At that point I switched over to another channel

[sac]

He thanked Chelsea for taking him & his family away from all that sectarian stuff forgetting that Chelsea fans are a shower of racists.

[i wish jj was my dad]

9 hours ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

was it particularly bad last night or just standard levels of sectarian abuse like levein got at parkhead earlier this season (probably about a 6/10)

 

just wondering why he's so raging this time - no arguments with his point but he was absolutely fuming

 

5-0 last night - think that's 10-1 in Glasgow since his team became a 'threat' to the old firm - a big dose of footballing reality administered last night alongside the other unsavoury stuff

Completely misses the point. It's not acceptable and anyone brave enough to speak out about the elephant in the room should be applauded. Too many people are feard of their windows getting tanned, kids getting bullied or teams  being targetted. 

[Gary Locke]

Big problem is that Celtic and rangers fans don’t see this as a problem and just seem to blame each other for it, I.e with Rangers fans since Steve Clark has came out with this they just say but Celtic done it to Kris Boyd at the weekend. Just a blame game with each other and can’t see it ending anytime soon.

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, sac said:

He thanked Chelsea for taking him & his family away from all that sectarian stuff forgetting that Chelsea fans are a shower of racists.

So why did he come back?

[davemclaren]

11 minutes ago, Gary Locke said:

Big problem is that Celtic and rangers fans don’t see this as a problem and just seem to blame each other for it, I.e with Rangers fans since Steve Clark has came out with this they just say but Celtic done it to Kris Boyd at the weekend. Just a blame game with each other and can’t see it ending anytime soon.

A bit like some of the stuff people come up with to not take action against our own little group of bigots. 

[Jamhammer]

10 hours ago, Peebo said:

No one is serious about ending sectarian behaviour at football matches. It is the main fuel of the industry of Scottish Football.

 

The argument that the police can’t do anything about it at games is simply bullshit. Have they ever tried? If they are not able to take action which reduces such predictable outbreaks of illegal behaviour at events like football matches, the events shouldn’t be able to take place in their current form. In other words, try arresting some of the many offenders; if that doesn’t work, ban away fans or only allow games to take place behind closed doors. 

 

It is a societal problem, not just a football problem. But it’s somehow accepted that nothing can be done about it at football games, while instances in other situations would quickly be addressed. Why? Because sectarianism is so fundamental to the most influential clubs. 

 

As for Steve Clarke, get rid of Kirk Broadfoot, then I’ll take your points a bit more seriously. 

You are a cop at Tynecastle. There are 3k Rangers fans singing The Sash. You need 6k cops to arrest them all and shitloads of vehicles to transport them to where? Or do you lift as many as you have cops at the stadium? What is your evidence at court? "The accused was singing the sash", "Was he alone"? "No, everyone was doing it". "Why wasn't everyone arrested"?

At Ibrox or Parkhead you realistically could have 30k to 40k folk singing a "prescribed song". How are the old bill going to arrest them all? There will be a couple of hundred cops at an old firm game at most where pretty much EVERYONE THERE will be taking part in this nonsense. We simply can't police our way out of it when it comes to the OF.

[Jamhammer]

Just watched Sportscene and the different responses of the 2 sides of the argument were, pretty much encapsulated by the two pundits. Thompson went don the, "It's been here forever, not going away, small minority" line. Stewart, admirably took a much tougher line. "Strict liability is the only way. It's a cancer on the game and society and needs eradicated". I have my differences with MS, particularly with his daft attitude to our manager but he is spot on there IMO

[Maroon Sailor]

3 minutes ago, Jamhammer said:

Just watched Sportscene and the different responses of the 2 sides of the argument were, pretty much encapsulated by the two pundits. Thompson went don the, "It's been here forever, not going away, small minority" line. Stewart, admirably took a much tougher line. "Strict liability is the only way. It's a cancer on the game and society and needs eradicated". I have my differences with MS, particularly with his daft attitude to our manager but he is spot on there IMO

 

He's spot on but spoke more like a politician than a pundit.

[GarryJ-o-s]

Watching that press conference Clarke and Boyd have given. The replies to the Sky Sports Scotland tweet of the video just sum up the scale of the problem.

 

Also totally embarrassing that when Rangers approached Clarke there was even the need for his religion to be discussed. It’s 2019, some people are truly pathetic if prejudicing against somebody’s religion even comes into your head as a black mark against them.

 

The saddest part is that most OF fans probably don’t really care, they just think they have to pretend to be anti-Catholic or anti-Protestant to suit the tribalism of their clubs.

[Jammy T]

4 hours ago, Dazo said:

 

In your opinion of course, maybe we can make a stand and ban all hearts supporters from Tynecastle ? Hopefully that exaggerated point shows it’s impossible to draw the line On which innocent supporters get banned and which don’t. For me I wouldn’t like to see innocent supporters punished because of others. 

 

Why cant the police go in and arrest or film then arrest/charge later a certain amount at a time ? Might take a while over several games/seasons but surely punishing those responsible is fairer. 

 

If we had the embarrassment of a closed door game sanction because of bigots and racists in our support our own fans would soon start to root out the folks from the dark ages in our home support.

 

Zero tolerance will work to help change behaviours.

 

Tough but the best way to change things quickly.

 

 

[Peebo]

1 hour ago, Jamhammer said:

You are a cop at Tynecastle. There are 3k Rangers fans singing The Sash. You need 6k cops to arrest them all and shitloads of vehicles to transport them to where? Or do you lift as many as you have cops at the stadium? What is your evidence at court? "The accused was singing the sash", "Was he alone"? "No, everyone was doing it". "Why wasn't everyone arrested"?

At Ibrox or Parkhead you realistically could have 30k to 40k folk singing a "prescribed song". How are the old bill going to arrest them all? There will be a couple of hundred cops at an old firm game at most where pretty much EVERYONE THERE will be taking part in this nonsense. We simply can't police our way out of it when it comes to the OF.

You don’t need to arrest them all. You can collect the evidence (film them) then arrest some. I’m unsure if “other people were doing it, so you can’t convict my client” is a viable defence. I doubt it, as individuals are routinely successfully prosecuted despite other individuals not being simultaneously prosecuted for similar crimes. 

 

The “you can’t arrest them all” argument stands up to absolutely no scrutiny in any other walk of life. Why do people accept that football matches (and sectarian abuse in particular) are different? 

 

Even if it did have merit, we are then essentially saying we accept mass instances of illegal behaviour at football matches. Why? Again, in any other part of everyday life, if that was the case, the events simply wouldn’t be allowed to happen. 

 

If we don’t want sectarian behaviour, either deal with it to the best of our ability and resources or else stop the events where such behaviour inevitably, and routinely, happens. 

[John Findlay]

Nil by mouth spokesman called it right. The footballing authorities in Scotland have no backbone or stomach to be tough on secteranism/bigotry. The bottom line is simple. No one wants to upset the big two in Glasgow. Authorities, media all sectors and the other teams in Scotland and I include ourselves in that.

[Peebo]

1 minute ago, John Findlay said:

Nil by mouth spokesman called it right. The footballing authorities in Scotland have no backbone or stomach to be tough on secteranism/bigotry. The bottom line is simple. No one wants to upset the big two in Glasgow. Authorities, media all sectors and the other teams in Scotland and I include ourselves in that.

Correct. No one with the power to do anything about it is actually serious about doing anything about it. 

 

Such regular, mass disorder is not tolerated in any other part of society, but continues to be accepted in football.  The clubs, SFA etc., police, media and fans are all collectively complicit. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

9 minutes ago, Jammy T said:

 

If we had the embarrassment of a closed door game sanction because of bigots and racists in our support our own fans would soon start to root out the folks from the dark ages in our home support.

 

Zero tolerance will work to help change behaviours.

 

Tough but the best way to change things quickly.

 

 

Yip that's how to handle it and it might be the wake up call that the wannabe huns in our own support need. Wouldn't hold my breath mind.

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, Peebo said:

Correct. No one with the power to do anything about it is actually serious about doing anything about it. 

 

Such regular, mass disorder is not tolerated in any other part of society, but continues to be accepted in football.  The clubs, SFA etc., police, media and fans are all collectively complicit. 

And politicians. James Kelly and co killed the first serious attempt at tackling it. History won't judge him or his conspirators kindly.

[Jamhammer]

11 minutes ago, Peebo said:

You don’t need to arrest them all. You can collect the evidence (film them) then arrest some. I’m unsure if “other people were doing it, so you can’t convict my client” is a viable defence. I doubt it, as individuals are routinely successfully prosecuted despite other individuals not being simultaneously prosecuted for similar crimes. 

 

The “you can’t arrest them all” argument stands up to absolutely no scrutiny in any other walk of life. Why do people accept that football matches (and sectarian abuse in particular) are different? 

 

Even if it did have merit, we are then essentially saying we accept mass instances of illegal behaviour at football matches. Why? Again, in any other part of everyday life, if that was the case, the events simply wouldn’t be allowed to happen. 

 

If we don’t want sectarian behaviour, either deal with it to the best of our ability and resources or else stop the events where such behaviour inevitably, and routinely, happens. 

I see where you’re coming from but where else in society do we routinely have 40 thousand folk breaking the law. 

Now, a closed doors game after disorder will show a marked decline in this behaviour IMO but the OF have, majority of ST holders. They KNOW who is doing it, at home games. Are they banning them? No. Neither of em has taken any real step to tackle it because, without it they are weakened.

I don’t disagree with you. I’d arrest and charge them all it’s just, logistically impossible to arrest our way out of the problem 

[Peebo]

1 minute ago, Jamhammer said:

I see where you’re coming from but where else in society do we routinely have 40 thousand folk breaking the law. 

Now, a closed doors game after disorder will show a marked decline in this behaviour IMO but the OF have, majority of ST holders. They KNOW who is doing it, at home games. Are they banning them? No. Neither of em has taken any real step to tackle it because, without it they are weakened.

I don’t disagree with you. I’d arrest and charge them all it’s just, logistically impossible to arrest our way out of the problem 

The bit in bold underlined my point. We wouldn’t allow it in any other part of civilised life. We allow it here. That’s the bottom line. As a society, either accept that and move on, or do something about it. 

[JackLadd]

The thing that makes the sectarian abuse on Clarke more unpalatable for me is he has no Celtic connection and is a Chelsea legend who now manages Kilmarnock - the club he supports. The hun tykes don't even know if he's Catholic or of any Irish ancestry,  they just label anyone they don''t like a Fenian ******* and bellow it out. We are talking about the lowest dregs of Scottish society here. Scum. Closed doors would work, and with Celtic. The message needs drilled into their thick skulls. 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by JackLadd

[Taffin]

13 hours ago, Section Q said:

I think the problem is bigger than Rangers.

Anyone who has lived abroad for any length of time is likely to notice the catholic/protestant bigotry here in Scotland when/if they return. This Scottish brand of bigotry is unique to our country and sadly never far from football. I've heard our own fans contributing to it at times. Heavy penalties for these idiots and genuine efforts by the clubs to wipe it out is the only answer.

 

 

This is spot on.

 

I've lived in England and Wales for the last 5 years after spending the first 25 of my life in Scotland.

 

It's been an eye opener as to how backward Scotland actually is on this topic. Don't get me wrong, there's serious issues here too but going back to Scotland makes it so clear how this continues to be an issue in our game. It's an issue because it's an issue in Scottish society.

[DETTY29]

Yesterday was a prime opportunity for a journalist to ask Gerrard if he really believed the words coming out of his mouth, and the statement by the club.

 

 

[Footballfirst]

Dave King speaks  ................................ but what will he actually do?

 

Tannoy requests of "Gonnae no sing aboot the pope or fenians, by the way. The taigs dinnae like it" isn't enough.

 

How many people have you banned from Ibrox in the past year for sectarian acts? I'd guess that it is an extremely low number and possibly a very low round number.

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Footballfirst

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

4 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Completely misses the point. It's not acceptable and anyone brave enough to speak out about the elephant in the room should be applauded. Too many people are feard of their windows getting tanned, kids getting bullied or teams  being targetted. 

 

just asked a question mate

 

[Jamhammer]

59 minutes ago, Peebo said:

The bit in bold underlined my point. We wouldn’t allow it in any other part of civilised life. We allow it here. That’s the bottom line. As a society, either accept that and move on, or do something about it. 

We are in agreement Peebo I think we just differ in our "cure". The Police ALONE can't deal with it. It's not a case of turning a blind eye or not enforcing the law. 

In 2020 Celtic come to Tynecastle. The whole away end blasts out Fields of Athenry or whatever. The powers that be then say the next home game at Parkheid will be behind closed doors. It is. Next away game. Same thing. The powers that be then ban Celtic supporters from away games for, say a month.

Next Old firm game both sides of the divide sing their "traditional" songs. Both are deducted 3 points and informed that any repeat would see the deduction of 6 points.

Do you think this would have an effect?

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

And politicians. James Kelly and co killed the first serious attempt at tackling it. History won't judge him or his conspirators kindly.

Correct.

[Jerah Jambo]

14 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

Yesterday was a prime opportunity for a journalist to ask Gerrard if he really believed the words coming out of his mouth, and the statement by the club.

 

 

Any journalist asking that or any other " searching " questions to anyone connected to either of the OF clubs wouldn't last two minutes in the job. Can you imagine them going back to their editors and telling them they've just upset 50% of their readership !!

In the days when print circulation figures are dropping through the floor it's not going to happen, economics will always trump morals and principles when the chips are down, you just need to look at the Scottish media's coverage of the Rangers implosion to see that.

[davemclaren]

12 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Dave King speaks  ................................ but what will he actually do?

 

Tannoy requests of "Gonnae no sing aboot the pope or fenians, by the way. The taigs dinnae like it" isn't enough.

 

How many people have you banned from Ibrox in the past year for sectarian acts? I'd guess that it is an extremely low number and possibly a very low round number.

 

More prevalent at Rangers and Celtic than anywhere else. 

[Tynecastle Valhalla]

That’s a fair statement from king

 

wont stop the fans tho 

[Peebo]

19 minutes ago, Jamhammer said:

We are in agreement Peebo I think we just differ in our "cure". The Police ALONE can't deal with it. It's not a case of turning a blind eye or not enforcing the law. 

In 2020 Celtic come to Tynecastle. The whole away end blasts out Fields of Athenry or whatever. The powers that be then say the next home game at Parkheid will be behind closed doors. It is. Next away game. Same thing. The powers that be then ban Celtic supporters from away games for, say a month.

Next Old firm game both sides of the divide sing their "traditional" songs. Both are deducted 3 points and informed that any repeat would see the deduction of 6 points.

Do you think this would have an effect?

Yes, I think it would. 

 

As for for the first bit, I’m not suggesting the police alone can deal with it. However, I do believe that it is worth at least trying the step of arresting some of the offenders before even getting to the closed-door stage. While the police don’t necessarily turn a blind eye, the policy is clearly to do nothing about sectarian signing at football matches. I cannot accept that that approach aligns with any serious desire to eradicate it. 

[SwindonJambo]

14 hours ago, Section Q said:

I think the problem is bigger than Rangers.

Anyone who has lived abroad for any length of time is likely to notice the catholic/protestant bigotry here in Scotland when/if they return. This Scottish brand of bigotry is unique to our country and sadly never far from football. I've heard our own fans contributing to it at times. Heavy penalties for these idiots and genuine efforts by the clubs to wipe it out is the only answer.

 

 

Very good point. I left Scotland in 1981 aged 14, with younger siblings aged 12 and 9. I did, however come to Edinburgh as a student at 18 and still continue to visit every few months. We’re originally from darkest Lanarkshire where the sectarianism issue is still bad. I have a pretty full understanding of Scotland’s embarrassing sectarianism and its effect on football. My brother, 2 years younger has a soft spot for Celtic and thinks I exaggerate and smiles whenever I try to tell him how bad it is and OF fans’ behaviour.  My sister, now 47 only vaguely recalls it and is probably blissfully oblivious to it all. Lucky her.

[Wilson]

 England has strict liability . It only kicks in when there is "discriminatory mass chanting" (which gets round the "what about the occasional bampot?" problem) .

 

There is a scale of penalties; first offence, a warning, then partial ground closure; then full ground closure. Ultimate sanction is a point deduction, or if a cup game, elimination.

 

Why not here?

[Debut 4]

12 minutes ago, Wilson said:

 England has strict liability . It only kicks in when there is "discriminatory mass chanting" (which gets round the "what about the occasional bampot?" problem) .

 

There is a scale of penalties; first offence, a warning, then partial ground closure; then full ground closure. Ultimate sanction is a point deduction, or if a cup game, elimination.

 

Why not here?

They’ll have to wait until Rangers clear their debts....

[Section Q]

2 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

 

Very good point. I left Scotland in 1981 aged 14, with younger siblings aged 12 and 9. I did, however come to Edinburgh as a student at 18 and still continue to visit every few months. We’re originally from darkest Lanarkshire where the sectarianism issue is still bad. I have a pretty full understanding of Scotland’s embarrassing sectarianism and its effect on football. My brother, 2 years younger has a soft spot for Celtic and thinks I exaggerate and smiles whenever I try to tell him how bad it is and OF fans’ behaviour.  My sister, now 47 only vaguely recalls it and is probably blissfully oblivious to it all. Lucky her.

Agree. A visit home and the same old issues become apparent. My wife who isn't British thinks the old grudges and feuds are fascinating. I remember a Hearts Rangers game I took her to many years ago and she was impressed by the singing of the away end until I explained their reference to "fenian blood". I then had to explain what the f word meant.

[J.T.F.Robertson]

I have to laugh when the old "rearing it's ugly head again" is trotted out by some so-called journalists. WTF did it ever go away. (rhetorical, therefore no ?) 

 

Not that it will make one iota of difference, but I respect Clarke for speaking out, although he could have covered his arse a bit better by not using Chelsea fans an example of tolerance.

 

[SwindonJambo]

18 minutes ago, J.T.F.Robertson said:

I have to laugh when the old "rearing it's ugly head again" is trotted out by some so-called journalists. WTF did it ever go away. (rhetorical, therefore no ?) 

 

Not that it will make one iota of difference, but I respect Clarke for speaking out, although he could have covered his arse a bit better by not using Chelsea fans an example of tolerance.

 

 

And they were probably at their very worst in 1987, thr year he signed for them. Stamford Bridge was an absolute shithole back then with some very violent and unpleasant supporters. At around then, they formed a strong empathy with Rangers, who they saw as their Scottish cousins.

[Peebo]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/rangers-fan-fined-for-shouting-sectarian-slurs-during-match-1-4877800/amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

Amazingly enough, it is possible for police to catch and for the PF to successfully prosecute individuals who commit an offence when singing songs as part of a wider group.

 

Given modern technology, if the will and resources were there you could have hundreds/thousands of prosecutions like this each week. I suspect that would soon put a pretty major dent in the number of offences committed each week. 

[Riccarton3]

Anything been said from any Rangers supporters groups?

[OTT]

2 hours ago, Wilson said:

 England has strict liability . It only kicks in when there is "discriminatory mass chanting" (which gets round the "what about the occasional bampot?" problem) .

 

There is a scale of penalties; first offence, a warning, then partial ground closure; then full ground closure. Ultimate sanction is a point deduction, or if a cup game, elimination.

 

Why not here?

 

This is bang on. It may be a societal problem but the clubs could and should do far more to help push it out of the game. Perhaps if they had a vested interest in the elimination of bigotry at football then that might kickstart meaningful change.

 

If Steve Clarkes comments can help get the ball rolling towards something like as you describe then that can only be a positive. 

 

Might be interesting to see how many huns turn up at Ibrox when half their song book is wiped out. 

[Hairdryer]

Listening to sports sound on the BBC according to Billy dodds it will be 

At least the next generation before the sectetianism does out