Phil Dunphy Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 11 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said: Is it reckless? Yes Is he “out of control”? Yes Is it over the ball? His right foot is not on the ground. His left comes through the side. Does he plant his studs into the opponents leg? Irrelevant, surely? Is it a scissor motion? No. I think the first two questions in bold are enough to send a player off (imo) The answers you’ve given are wrong, though. He’s neither reckless or out of control. If that’s a red card, then the game is finished as a contact sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudiHMFC Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said: On a Wednesday night at my fives it's a great tackle, twenty years ago it's a great tackle. In today's game with today's rules it's a red card, ref called it correctly imo. Off the ground and two feet, not in control of his body. How is he not in control of his body? Has be been possessed by the devil or something? Off the ground two feet I'm wondering if half the ***** on here have actually seen the tackle. Edited February 18, 2019 by RudiHMFC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Pistol1874 said: In what way is a lunge, which endangers the opponent and is a red card and is your view of the challenge, a real skill? A successful legal tackle which involves great judgement and results takes the ball cleanly and without injuring the player is a great skill. A lunge which endangers the opponent and is against the rules is certainly not. The tackle was one or the other, you cannot say Garuccio exercised great skill AND deserved to get sent off. The referee agreed with you this time, however there were, in my view, at least two worse challenges than that this weekend where the referee went the other way and opted for yellow - Jacobs for Livingston and Scott Brown. Refereeing consistency is another matter of course. It's a real skill if it comes off, if you miss, it's a leg breaker. That's why the rules where changed. So it can be both. Winning the ball is immaterial, it is how you win it that is the issue. On this case he won the ball, so it was, imo a piece of skill. Scott brown is a different discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabienleclerq Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, RudiHMFC said: How is he not in control of his body? Has be been possessed by the devil or something? Off the ground two feet I'm wondering if half the ***** on here have actually seen the tackle. Because he is flying in, he couldn't stop. I'm wondering if half the other ***** on here know the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudiHMFC Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Olly Lee's left boot said: It's a real skill if it comes off, if you miss, it's a leg breaker. That's why the rules where changed. So it can be both. Winning the ball is immaterial, it is how you win it that is the issue. On this case he won the ball, so it was, imo a piece of skill. Scott brown is a different discussion. So you're saying if the boy had nicked the ball before Garrucio got there then he gets his leg broken? Or he potentially gets his leg broken? What if someone jumps up for a header, lands awkwardly and breaks their leg, is that then deemed a potential leg breaker meaning you can't jump for headers anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudiHMFC Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said: Because he is flying in, he couldn't stop. I'm wondering if half the other ***** on here know the rules. Whenever you slide in for a tackle it's going to be hard to stop dead on the ground whenever you want to. You're acting like he's jumped in two footed straight on over ball when infact he slides in with one foot making contact with the ball, his foot that makes contact is on the ground and his other leg is extended away from his body. Perfectly timed and executed tackle, even for 2019 where you can't say boo to someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 11 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said: Because he is flying in, he couldn't stop. I'm wondering if half the other ***** on here know the rules. Folk don't. Whether the rule is correct is another debate, but in this case the ref applied the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 15 minutes ago, Olly Lee's left boot said: It's a real skill if it comes off, if you miss, it's a leg breaker. So, in this case, it’s a great tackle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabienleclerq Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, RudiHMFC said: Whenever you slide in for a tackle it's going to be hard to stop dead on the ground whenever you want to. You're acting like he's jumped in two footed straight on over ball when infact he slides in with one foot making contact with the ball, his foot that makes contact is on the ground and his other leg is extended away from his body. Perfectly timed and executed tackle, even for 2019 where you can't say boo to someone. Have you seen the tackle we are talking about? He doesn't slide. He doesn't make any contact with the ground until his foot is past the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bauld Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 He comes in off the ground which is why he has been given a red card. The problem is he has actually done it with perfect timing, executing a perfect tackle by taking the ball and missing the well player completely. He has put the Well player at risk, get it wrong and it could have been a leg breaker but he has done it with absolute precision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 19 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said: So, in this case, it’s a great tackle? Folk really not getting the rules. It does not matter if you win the ball. If you go in as he did, it's a red card. Not my opinion, but it's the rules. In my opinion it was a great tackle. Under the rules, he was out of control as he left the ground, this is classed as wreckless, dangerous, serious foul play etc. The reason is, if you miss it's a leg breaker. They wanted to stop these types of tackles so this came Into place. The one yesterday was maybe on the lower scale of wreckless or not in Control but it could still be viewed as this as he lunged and both feet left the ground. It's not that hard to understand. Winning the ball does not matter if you leave the ground or jump in or show studs etc as you are deemed not in control and putting the other player at serious risk. Winning the ball is immaterial. In this case, my personal opinion is that it was a great tackle, but under the rules the way he won the ball was a red card. Happens allot nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inch Hearts Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Other way about this place would be going ballistic if they had a player get away with such challenge. It was a stupid stupid thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, Olly Lee's left boot said: In my opinion it was a great tackle. Ok, that’s what I thought. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said: The answers you’ve given are wrong, though. He’s neither reckless or out of control. If that’s a red card, then the game is finished as a contact sport. I disagree because he leaves the ground (and therefore out of control) and lands amongst the opponents feet and therefore has no time to change his trajectory. Edit: the physical aspect of the game has already been long since lost, unfortunately. Edited February 18, 2019 by Nookie Bear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Corner Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Rules are there to be broken, just like legs. Soz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayman Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 The red and two other awful decisions for those who missed it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenNaismith Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 I had chat this morning with a man who’s opinion matters most on this and having seen the challenge again he thinks it’s a great tackle but there’s absolutely no point in appealing it as when the refs were in at the beginning of the season this was the one type of challenge they were adamant about. They are of the opinion that if you leave the ground then you aren’t in control which in turn then endangers your opponent. With the way some appeals have went this season I’d appeal it anyway and see how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said: I disagree because he leaves the ground (and therefore out of control) and lands amongst the opponents feet and therefore has no time to change his trajectory. Edit: the physical aspect of the game has already been long since lost, unfortunately. Quick enough to condemn and outlaw perfectly timed tackles that win the ball, not so quick to do the same with simulation. Modern day football chaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamtartan74 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 One of the best tackles I have seen in a long long time, feck the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 31 minutes ago, Olly Lee's left boot said: Folk really not getting the rules. It does not matter if you win the ball. If you go in as he did, it's a red card. Not my opinion, but it's the rules. In my opinion it was a great tackle. Under the rules, he was out of control as he left the ground, this is classed as wreckless, dangerous, serious foul play etc. The reason is, if you miss it's a leg breaker. They wanted to stop these types of tackles so this came Into place. The one yesterday was maybe on the lower scale of wreckless or not in Control but it could still be viewed as this as he lunged and both feet left the ground. It's not that hard to understand. Winning the ball does not matter if you leave the ground or jump in or show studs etc as you are deemed not in control and putting the other player at serious risk. Winning the ball is immaterial. In this case, my personal opinion is that it was a great tackle, but under the rules the way he won the ball was a red card. Happens allot nowadays. Spot on, as Levein said after the game it’s indefensible. Ben has done it a few times this season, it might be one of the reasons he’s in and out the squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanderMIM Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 It wasn’t a red card, but that’s what was given and that’s all that matters now isn’t it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, jamtartan74 said: One of the best tackles I have seen in a long long time, feck the rules. Yip, basically that art is now banned because of thugs like V Jones, Souness, Keane, more our level guys like Goodwin etc being way ott. Now the art of the slide tackle is being phased out. I was a great tackler in my days as a fb but tackled a bit like the one yesterday, I'd be off every game even although I won the ball... Every time ? Edited February 18, 2019 by Olly Lee's left boot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovecraft Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) Just watched Brown's in the Killie game. Far worse than Ben's, and Brown had no intentions of going for the ball, he went to hurt the player. You can see Brown was watching for the red card when he turned around. No Red for Brown means Celtic wouldn't have scored. Edited February 18, 2019 by Lovecraft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambogemz Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Phil Dunphy said: The answers you’ve given are wrong, though. He’s neither reckless or out of control. If that’s a red card, then the game is finished as a contact sport. To be fair it's been more or less finished as a contact sport fora number of years. I agree with you BTW . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Findlay Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Let's rename the sport to footbasketball. As contact is no longer allowed. Wasn't a foul never mind a red card. That is even with the current laws of the game. The officials got it wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Gin Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 2 hours ago, fabienleclerq said: On a Wednesday night at my fives it's a great tackle, twenty years ago it's a great tackle. In today's game with today's rules it's a red card, ref called it correctly imo. Off the ground and two feet, not in control of his body. Who the **** flies into tackles like that at a game of fives? Ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Camazzola Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Olly Lee's left boot said: Yip, basically that art is now banned because of thugs like V Jones, Souness, Keane, more our level guys like Goodwin etc being way ott. Now the art of the slide tackle is being phased out. I was a great tackler in my days as a fb but tackled a bit like the one yesterday, I'd be off every game even although I won the ball... Every time ? 100% disagree I'm afraid. Harry Cochrane on McGinn and Stevenson on McPake are two recent examples of reckless tackles where they stated on the park. Yesterday's wasn't reckless or out of control. He left the ground but was grounded without excessive force when he won the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, Samuel Camazzola said: 100% disagree I'm afraid. Harry Cochrane on McGinn and Stevenson on McPake are two recent examples of reckless tackles where they stated on the park. Yesterday's wasn't reckless or out of control. He left the ground but was grounded without excessive force when he won the ball. I tackled like that 10plus times a game, I'd be sent off now. Winning the ball is irrelevant, don't know folk keep saying that. Cochrane was lucky not to be sent off, although imo his was malicious more than dangerous and a booking was correct. Stevenson on mcpake should have been a red. Yesterday's, under the rules was a red, both feet left the ground. He wasn't in control because if this. Winning the ball is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Phil Dunphy said: Quick enough to condemn and outlaw perfectly timed tackles that win the ball, not so quick to do the same with simulation. Modern day football chaps. Simulation won't end someone's career. ? Unfortunately for every perfect tackle like that there is also a mistimed one that would break a leg. I get your point, but the rules are pretty clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 36 minutes ago, Ray Gin said: Who the **** flies into tackles like that at a game of fives? Ridiculous. Slide tackling in fives ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Sausage Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 17 hours ago, El Diez said: This might sound condescending, but if you’ve played the game you know it was a legitimate tackle. That why Levein isn’t appealing? If only he’d played the game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 10 minutes ago, Olly Lee's left boot said: Simulation won't end someone's career. ? Unfortunately for every perfect tackle like that there is also a mistimed one that would break a leg. I get your point, but the rules are pretty clear. Ryan Masons career was ended challenging for a ball in the air. Best ban that too. Luc Nillis had his career ended in a tangle with a goalkeeper at Portman Road. Should ban strikers from entering the penalty area too. If you start banning things in football because someone “might” get hurt then what’s the point? Just put wee flags on their backs and if an opponent pulled the flag off then you’re out ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudiHMFC Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 49 minutes ago, Ray Gin said: Who the **** flies into tackles like that at a game of fives? Ridiculous. Oh believe me, you get people like that, although not challenges like Garrucios, more like the type that will actually hurt you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabienleclerq Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 58 minutes ago, Ray Gin said: Who the **** flies into tackles like that at a game of fives? Ridiculous. Prison rules at the pitz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheetah Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Red card all day long, as soon as he leaves the ground he is considered not in control. Will not be missed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Brown Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 30 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said: That why Levein isn’t appealing? If only he’d played the game... Well said Hearts manager Craig Levein: "I thought there wasn't an awful lot in the game. What's cost us are two crazy situations that we brought upon ourselves. "Putting my old-school hat on, I thought Garuccio won the ball. Taking a step back and thinking 'what constitutes a red card in modern football?' he's gone with two feet off the ground. I find it very difficult to defend him, it's a crazy decision. "Colin put his hands up to the rest of the lads and apologised for making the errors. This error unfortunately has cost us dearly." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 41 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said: Ryan Masons career was ended challenging for a ball in the air. Best ban that too. Luc Nillis had his career ended in a tangle with a goalkeeper at Portman Road. Should ban strikers from entering the penalty area too. If you start banning things in football because someone “might” get hurt then what’s the point? Just put wee flags on their backs and if an opponent pulled the flag off then you’re out ? Think it's about reducing the risk of serious injury. You can do whatever you want with flags ? I don't judge. Statistically most folk die in bed, but beds aren't banned. Make of that what you will? I never made the rules up, your anger and frustration should be direct to fifa, maybe run your flag idea past them at the same time. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said: Well said Hearts manager Craig Levein: "I thought there wasn't an awful lot in the game. What's cost us are two crazy situations that we brought upon ourselves. "Putting my old-school hat on, I thought Garuccio won the ball. Taking a step back and thinking 'what constitutes a red card in modern football?' he's gone with two feet off the ground. I find it very difficult to defend him, it's a crazy decision. "Colin put his hands up to the rest of the lads and apologised for making the errors. This error unfortunately has cost us dearly." What everyone has said that understands the rules. Winning the ball does not matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 14 minutes ago, Olly Lee's left boot said: Think it's about reducing the risk of serious injury. You can do whatever you want with flags ? I don't judge. Statistically most folk die in bed, but beds aren't banned. Make of that what you will? I never made the rules up, your anger and frustration should be direct to fifa, maybe run your flag idea past them at the same time. ? I’m sure FIFA will be too busy taking pay offs for the next World Cup to consider making any changes to the laws of the game that won’t make their executives extremely wealthy. Players get injured in games, it’s an occupational hazard. If Ben had made significant contact with the player then there would be no issue with the red card. He hasn’t and a referee has made a snap decision without using any common sense in that situation. Was Garrucio ever in any danger of seriously injuring his opponent there? No, not at all. “Aye, but it’s in the rules” doesn’t work when all the rules are open to interpretation. There is no such thing as black and white in football and to claim it’s a definite red card in such terms is just head scratching. We might not appeal the decision, that doesn’t make it right. The compliance officer has already got a couple of major decisions very wrong in the last week or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenNaismith Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Captain Sausage said: That why Levein isn’t appealing? If only he’d played the game... He’s not appealing because he knows it’s pointless. See my post further up the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Here is an extract from FIFA Rule 12, Fouls and Misconduct. Sending-off offences A player, substitute or substituted player who commits any of the following offences is sent off: • denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area) • denying a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent whose overall movement is towards the offender’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick (unless as outlined below). • serious foul play • biting or spitting at someone • violent conduct • using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures. Serious foul play A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play. Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play. Clearly, there is considerable room for the referee's judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 hours ago, Lovecraft said: Just watched Brown's in the Killie game. Far worse than Ben's, and Brown had no intentions of going for the ball, he went to hurt the player. You can see Brown was watching for the red card when he turned around. No Red for Brown means Celtic wouldn't have scored. Reason alone to appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 15 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said: Reason alone to appeal. That is a fair point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Camazzola Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 hours ago, Olly Lee's left boot said: I tackled like that 10plus times a game, I'd be sent off now. Winning the ball is irrelevant, don't know folk keep saying that. Cochrane was lucky not to be sent off, although imo his was malicious more than dangerous and a booking was correct. Stevenson on mcpake should have been a red. Yesterday's, under the rules was a red, both feet left the ground. He wasn't in control because if this. Winning the ball is irrelevant. It's obvious the majority including guys who've plated at an elite level see it differently as he was in control, wasn't reckless, didn't use excessive force and didn't endanger an opponent. There was contact but despite the modern game not being great to watch, it's still a contact sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, Samuel Camazzola said: It's obvious the majority including guys who've plated at an elite level see it differently as he was in control, wasn't reckless, didn't use excessive force and didn't endanger an opponent. There was contact but despite the modern game not being great to watch, it's still a contact sport. Doesn't matter. The rules have changed and on this type of challenge keep getting more strigent. If I made the rules up, I wouldn't send someone off if the ball was won. It's not my rules. ex pro or commoner the rules are there and in this case a red card was correct. The ball being won is irrelevant despite what I or anyone else may think or want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Camazzola Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 32 minutes ago, Olly Lee's left boot said: Doesn't matter. The rules have changed and on this type of challenge keep getting more strigent. If I made the rules up, I wouldn't send someone off if the ball was won. It's not my rules. ex pro or commoner the rules are there and in this case a red card was correct. The ball being won is irrelevant despite what I or anyone else may think or want. We'll have to disagree. The rules are obviously still open to interpretation as inconsistent decisions have shown. You doing your ref badges? You seem to have studied the clauses and wordings. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambopilms Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 There was just no need to jump in like that. Odd decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locky Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 This where the 'laws of the game' frustrate me. So many things given against players because they could've hypothetically been worse than they were. I can see the ref has probably given it because from some angles, you wonder how in control Garuccio actually was. In truth, it was a cracker of a challenge. He won the ball completely and barely touched the man. In the dying embers of such a game, you have to expect those challenges to be going about. Telling you right now, if that was Scott Brown, never in a month of Sunday's would that be a red card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaroon Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 I think that the silence from Craig speaks volumes. I can guarantee that the players would be warned not to do anything that gives the biased bunch of eegits that pass for match officials a chance to send off a Hearts player. To that end, it was a stupid tackle. Looking at the replay, it was a great tackle but, it is just not the way you can go into a tackle today, unless you're Scott Brown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NANOJAMBO Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, colinmaroon said: I think that the silence from Craig speaks volumes. I can guarantee that the players would be warned not to do anything that gives the biased bunch of eegits that pass for match officials a chance to send off a Hearts player. To that end, it was a stupid tackle. Looking at the replay, it was a great tackle but, it is just not the way you can go into a tackle today, unless you're Scott Brown. So it wasn't a "great tackle" , it was an illegal tackle. Genuinely , I cannot believe the rose tinted specs approach from so many posters about this . It's not bias, it's not even crap refereeing but some folks will just not accept it- even when CL refuses to defend the player for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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