British IS schoolgirl wants to return home

[redm]

21 minutes ago, Zico said:

Cool but no need to worry about me. You can sympathise with someone who chose to join a terrorist organisation through her own free will and now has to deal with the consequences of that choice. I couldn’t care less about her. I’ll reserve my sympathies for the likes of the Yazidi women and girls who her organisation kidnapped, raped, violated and murdered and who didn’t have the luxury of choice. And who received punishments from the female members of IS like Begum. 

 

It’s possible to have compassion or sympathy for more than one person or group at a time. Begum was just a teenage girl who seems to have been pregnant or nursing for majority of her time so I doubt she was out there coordinating brutality against Yazidi people or masterminding attacks for the caliphate. 

 

Like I said, she’s just the easy target. People are rightfully angry about Manchester and want someone to take it out on. She’s the covenient sacrificial lamb. Javid knows that depriving a brainwashed, groomed teenager (and young mother who has now lost 3 babies at just 19 years of age) plays well with the type of people who put them in power in the first place, because she’s also Muslim.

[Sexton Hardcastle]

13 minutes ago, redm said:

 

I think the point is that something probably could have been done but it wasn’t, and now a baby is dead. Javid was accused of playing totally transparent dog whistle politics with this long before the baby took ill and never should have withdrawn Begum’s citizenship. 

Bit ironic of labour and co wanting to put more British lives at risk sending them In to a war zone. What would have happened had they lost a soldier or two through conflict to try and save the child. Difficult but correct decision by those at the top table.

 

It’s tragic but the whole thing was avoidable through her actions. She is to blame and no one else.

 

Hopefully now the end of this vile woman.

[Zico]

8 minutes ago, redm said:

 

It’s possible to have compassion or sympathy for more than one person or group at a time. Begum was just a teenage girl who seems to have been pregnant or nursing for majority of her time so I doubt she was out there coordinating brutality against Yazidi people or masterminding attacks for the caliphate. 

 

Like I said, she’s just the easy target. People are rightfully angry about Manchester and want someone to take it out on. She’s the covenient sacrificial lamb. Javid knows that depriving a brainwashed, groomed teenager (and young mother who has now lost 3 babies at just 19 years of age) plays well with the type of people who put them in power in the first place, because she’s also Muslim.

Just there for a holiday then? She is, at best, complicit in what happened to the Yazidis, Kurds, Turkmen Shias, Christians and many others. And you’re last paragraph is, frankly, nonsense. 

[redm]

4 minutes ago, Sexton Hardcastle said:

Bit ironic of labour and co wanting to put more British lives at risk sending them In to a war zone. What would have happened had they lost a soldier or two through conflict to try and save the child. Difficult but correct decision by those at the top table.

 

It’s tragic but the whole thing was avoidable through her actions. She is to blame and no one else.

 

Hopefully now the end of this vile woman.

 

If dozens of journalists can get in there to interview her and aid workers regularly move in and out of the area, it’s probably safe to assume it really wouldn’t have been too difficult to get in there and remove the baby. If they wanted to. 

 

Bring Shamima home to face justice as per our legal system, baby would get the right care and wouldn’t have died of something as treatable as a chest infection. That baby deserved better, even if you think his mother doesn’t. 

[redm]

Just now, Zico said:

Just there for a holiday then? She is, at best, complicit in what happened to the Yazidis, Kurds, Turkmen Shias, Christians and many others. And you’re last paragraph is, frankly, nonsense. 

 

She was groomed and brainwashed. She was also 15. She’s not responsible for every atrocity ever commmitted in the name of Isis. 

 

And my last paragraph isn’t nonsense at all. Javid knows his audience. 

[Zico]

Just now, redm said:

 

She was groomed and brainwashed. She was also 15. She’s not responsible for every atrocity ever commmitted in the name of Isis. 

 

And my last paragraph isn’t nonsense at all. Javid knows his audience. 

I suppose you can always find an excuse for a terrorist if you want to.

[Sexton Hardcastle]

9 minutes ago, redm said:

 

If dozens of journalists can get in there to interview her and aid workers regularly move in and out of the area, it’s probably safe to assume it really wouldn’t have been too difficult to get in there and remove the baby. If they wanted to. 

 

Bring Shamima home to face justice as per our legal system, baby would get the right care and wouldn’t have died of something as treatable as a chest infection. That baby deserved better, even if you think his mother doesn’t. 

Why should the tax payers/victims of IS atrocities fund her to get good health care, a safe place to sleep another crack at life? We are quick to condone paying for jail for beasts or child killers so why is she any different.

 

I’d imagine sending British troops into that area would have mobilised and certainly raise the risk level from remaining IS fighters or sympathisers.

 

The politicians really don’t care about the babies death. They are just using it as a reason to stir the pot and win some votes amongst the brexit sham. It will be forgotten about next week and hopefully so will she.

[John Findlay]

3 hours ago, redm said:

 

She was groomed and brainwashed. She was also 15. She’s not responsible for every atrocity ever commmitted in the name of Isis. 

 

And my last paragraph isn’t nonsense at all. Javid knows his audience. 

Niave in the extreme. She would have had no hesitation in killing you if she believed it was for the ISIS cause. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, redm said:

 

If dozens of journalists can get in there to interview her and aid workers regularly move in and out of the area, it’s probably safe to assume it really wouldn’t have been too difficult to get in there and remove the baby. If they wanted to. 

 

Bring Shamima home to face justice as per our legal system, baby would get the right care and wouldn’t have died of something as treatable as a chest infection. That baby deserved better, even if you think his mother doesn’t. 

 

Unless you have access to the kids medical files then there is absolutely no way that you can say his condition was treatable.

Even in 1st World countries babies die from pneumonia, 58 in the 0-14 age group in 2012 died in the UK, so whilst rare it does still happen, even here.

 

You've mentioned a few times about her being an easy target, until a few weeks ago nobody knew whether she was alive or not, and it was her herself who sought out the media by approaching the Times journalist and then proceeded to tell every & any media organisation that would listen to her her story, she made herself the target, nobody else, until she approached the media she was just one of thousands of other anonymous IS brides, she could have stayed that way, but chose not to.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Niave in the extreme. She would have had no hesitation in killing you if she believed it was for the ISIS cause. 

 

And giving how much she says she enjoyed being an IS bride, I have no hesitation in believing that she'd do it all again and if her children had survived would have taken them as well.

[Mikey1874]

4 hours ago, redm said:

 

I think the point is that something probably could have been done but it wasn’t, and now a baby is dead. Javid was accused of playing totally transparent dog whistle politics with this long before the baby took ill and never should have withdrawn Begum’s citizenship. 

 

Yeah

 

You could have got some people together, gone over and brought her or her baby home. 

[Mikey1874]

Even if UK took her back it would take time. 

 

Syrian authorities would need to agree it. And we don't have any diplomatic relationship just now.

 

Could take years. 

[Captain Sausage]

So on one thread we have someone defending a kiddy fiddler, saying ‘he’s just had a hard childhood’. 

 

On this thread we’ve got someone defending a terrorist saying ‘she’s a victim of grooming and we should sympathise with her’. Trying to then call out Javid as playing to baying anti-Islamic right wing nutters as the reason for this child’s death - bordering on offensive to be honest. 

 

The state of some people in here is embarrassing. 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Captain Sausage said:

So on one thread we have someone defending a kiddy fiddler, saying ‘he’s just had a hard childhood’. 

 

On this thread we’ve got someone defending a terrorist saying ‘she’s a victim of grooming and we should sympathise with her’. Trying to then call out Javid as playing to baying anti-Islamic right wing nutters as the reason for this child’s death - bordering on offensive to be honest. 

 

The state of some people in here is embarrassing. 

 

 

 

The child's death has nothing to do with the decision to withdraw citizenship.

 

Even if she wins an appeal she could be years away from being able to leave Syria. 

[Toggie88]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Even if UK took her back it would take time. 

 

Syrian authorities would need to agree it. And we don't have any diplomatic relationship just now.

 

Could take years. 

 

I thought she was being held by the Syrian Democratic Forces - which has nothing to do with the Syrian Government. If that's the case theoretically she could have been back within days. 

[Mikey1874]

11 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

I thought she was being held by the Syrian Democratic Forces - which has nothing to do with the Syrian Government. If that's the case theoretically she could have been back within days. 

 

How?

 

Send the SAS in to pick her up?

 

Suppose we could. And all the others. 

 

If we want to which we don't.

 

Can do anything if you really want to. 

 

The position is she needs to make her own arrangements. Which is how things generally work. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Toggie88]

7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

How?

 

Send the SAS in to pick her up?

 

Suppose we could. And all the others. 

 

If we want to which we don't.

 

Can do anything if you really want to. 

 

The position is she needs to make her own arrangements. Which is how things generally work. 

 

The Syrian Democratic Forces are our allies and there's no legal issues to jump through as they're not a recognised state. There are also already NATO personel imbedded with them and providing support on the ground - would not have been difficult. 

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Toggie88 said:

 

The Syrian Democratic Forces are our allies and there's no legal issues to jump through as they're not a recognised state. There are also already NATO personel imbedded with them and providing support on the ground - would not have been difficult. 

 

Saves money letting her make her own arrangements. 

 

And is part of UK's opposition to ISIS. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Mikey1874

[tcjambo]

I'm sad the child died as an innocent victime but no sympathies for any IS follower. As someone previously said the Yazidis were treated disgustingly by those scummy people.

[JimKongUno]

12 hours ago, Captain Sausage said:

So on one thread we have someone defending a kiddy fiddler, saying ‘he’s just had a hard childhood’. 

 

On this thread we’ve got someone defending a terrorist saying ‘she’s a victim of grooming and we should sympathise with her’. Trying to then call out Javid as playing to baying anti-Islamic right wing nutters as the reason for this child’s death - bordering on offensive to be honest. 

 

The state of some people in here is embarrassing. 

 

 

 

This 

 

How the **** is it javids fault. She went to a warzone to breed. Her 1st 2 had already died and she waits until the day before its born to decide she wants to bring it up in the UK. 

The blame for the babies tragic death is all on her 

[Toggie88]

12 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Saves money letting her make her own arrangements. 

 

And is part of UK's opposition to ISIS. 

 

I wasn't commenting on the morality of letting her back into the UK. I was just pointing out that the practicalities wouldn't have been as difficult and you were claiming - a British journalist flew over, met her, interviewed her and returned all within a few days. 

[doctor jambo]

7 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

I wasn't commenting on the morality of letting her back into the UK. I was just pointing out that the practicalities wouldn't have been as difficult and you were claiming - a British journalist flew over, met her, interviewed her and returned all within a few days. 

Would have been really easy , yes.

however, foreign born nationals die young every day as a result of war and poverty.

Begum had a choice to either have kids in a war zone where kids die regularly, or move to Syria .

 

[Mikey1874]

39 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

I wasn't commenting on the morality of letting her back into the UK. I was just pointing out that the practicalities wouldn't have been as difficult and you were claiming - a British journalist flew over, met her, interviewed her and returned all within a few days. 

 

UK government position is that it's not necessarily safe to send in officials to Syria to assess her application. They could be targets. 

 

Journalists generally being neutral have a free pass to travel safely. 

 

Of course people are thinking of the movies where the army just sweep in. But that isn't the procedure in immigration cases. 

[Francis Albert]

7 hours ago, JimKongUno said:

 

This 

 

How the **** is it javids fault. She went to a warzone to breed. Her 1st 2 had already died and she waits until the day before its born to decide she wants to bring it up in the UK. 

The blame for the babies tragic death is all on her 

And a small part of the blame for thousands of other childrens' deaths is also hers as an active supporter if ISIS.

But hey let's blame Javid

[JamboX2]

On 09/03/2019 at 14:44, Zico said:

Just there for a holiday then? She is, at best, complicit in what happened to the Yazidis, Kurds, Turkmen Shias, Christians and many others. And you’re last paragraph is, frankly, nonsense. 

 

Thing is we pride ourselves for being a step above than the ISIS lot. For one we treat all criminals with a degree of compassion by providing a fair trial. Those with families have their families provided for. We chose not to do this here. 

 

Christ we gave the architects of Nazism fair trials in Nuremberg. 

 

We should repatriate and try these people for joining such a criminal cult. Not just allowing them to roam free and receive international aid handouts from various bodies peddling their vile dogma.

[davemclaren]

34 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Thing is we pride ourselves for being a step above than the ISIS lot. For one we treat all criminals with a degree of compassion by providing a fair trial. Those with families have their families provided for. We chose not to do this here. 

 

Christ we gave the architects of Nazism fair trials in Nuremberg. 

 

We should repatriate and try these people for joining such a criminal cult. Not just allowing them to roam free and receive international aid handouts from various bodies peddling their vile dogma.

I don’t agree with the concept of removing people’s citizenship as I think it is just avoiding responsibility. However, this baby would have died whether she had her citizenship or not. Getting her, and others similar, back to the UK from where they currently are is risky and logistically difficult. 

[JackLadd]

Islamic State  wife says Koran allows rape of Yazidi woman. Diabolical teachings plus weak minds spells trouble.

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

 

 

Christ we gave the architects of Nazism fair trials in Nuremberg. 

 

How many were found not guilty?

[Geoff the Mince]

6 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

How many were found not guilty?

Though he was guilty on a few charges Albert Speer certainly got off lightly .

 

Anyway back to the ISIS mattress , leave her to rot .

[Beast Boy]

A wee baby has just died. Surely there was a better outcome than that? Poor wee soul.

[Sexton Hardcastle]

Got to wonder the rough cost of any proposed mission to pull them both or even just the baby out. Would have ran into millions once you factor in all involved. Money which could be better spent on home shores.

 

It won’t but the principle is worth thinking about. 

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, John Findlay said:

How many were found not guilty?

A lot of those whom the US and UK thought would be useful in their upcoming battle with a (quickly former) ally which did more than anyone to defeat Germany weren't even tried. Including most of the industrialists who fed the Nazi machine.

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, Sexton Hardcastle said:

Got to wonder the rough cost of any proposed mission to pull them both or even just the baby out. Would have ran into millions once you factor in all involved. Money which could be better spent on home shores.

 

It won’t but the principle is worth thinking about. 

Or on the many victims of ISIS in Syria and elsewhere.

[JamboX2]

13 hours ago, John Findlay said:

How many were found not guilty?

 

How many people accused of murder aren't convicted a year? Or sexual assault? 

 

It's still an issue of burden of proof.

 

The fact remains we live in a rules based society and legal order. Where rules are broken we rightly amass evidence and try these people. If found guilty they're punished. Rightly so.

 

This whole thing has been a political side show to the real issues at hand. Javid wanted to act tough. So he stripped her of her citizenship despite her Bangladesh saying she wasn't a national of theirs and with would end up stateless. 

 

Why not actually confront an issue the west as a whole faces? How do we deal with these people now IS is in retreat? Do we simply let them roam free or do we actually confront the issue and do the hard thing and put them before courts?

Edited March 11, 2019 by JamboX2

[Zico]

14 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Thing is we pride ourselves for being a step above than the ISIS lot. For one we treat all criminals with a degree of compassion by providing a fair trial. Those with families have their families provided for. We chose not to do this here. 

 

Christ we gave the architects of Nazism fair trials in Nuremberg. 

 

We should repatriate and try these people for joining such a criminal cult. Not just allowing them to roam free and receive international aid handouts from various bodies peddling their vile dogma.

Godwin’s law invoked!

 

We shouldn’t spend a penny or risk any lives trying to bring Begum or British-born IS members back. They should be prosecuted for their crimes in Iraq or Syria via UNITAD or IIIM. However the latter might be a wee bit tricky just now so they can stay where they are.

[Dagger Is Back]

HO being asked to show mercy?

 

Aye right. Put her in trial over there.

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, Zico said:

Godwin’s law invoked!

 

We shouldn’t spend a penny or risk any lives trying to bring Begum or British-born IS members back. They should be prosecuted for their crimes in Iraq or Syria via UNITAD or IIIM. However the latter might be a wee bit tricky just now so they can stay where they are.

 

Those nations are not secure enough to host such courts. They need prosecuted in Geneva or the Hague. 

 

Struggle to fathom how these people are all being interviewed on the 6pm news and are living in UN backed camps but we can't somehow get them out to Turkey and back to Britain, France, Netherlands, Germany and so on for trial. 

[Mikey1874]

3 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

How many people accused of murder aren't convicted a year? Or sexual assault? 

 

It's still an issue of burden of proof.

 

The fact remains we live in a rules based society and legal order. Where rules are broken we rightly amass evidence and try these people. If found guilty they're punished. Rightly so.

 

This whole thing has been a political side show to the real issues at hand. Javid wanted to act tough. So he stripped her of her citizenship despite her Bangladesh saying she wasn't a national of theirs and with would end up stateless. 

 

Why not actually confront an issue the west as a whole faces? How do we deal with these people now IS is in retreat? Do we simply let them roam free or do we actually confront the issue and do the hard thing and put them before courts?

 

She's got an appeal on citizenship decision which is presumably something UK can get some credit for.

 

She can also get herself back here where she can make an immigration/ refugee application. She managed to get to Syria without any help. 

 

With so many supporters which is fair enough should be able to get her back here. 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Mikey1874

[JamboX2]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

She's got an appeal which is presumably something UK can get some credit for.

 

On citizenship.

 

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

She can also get herself back here where she can make an immigration/ refugee application. She managed to get to Syria without any help. 

 

She's a UK citizen so I don't think she can get back in on those terms. You don't migrate into your own nation. 

 

I'm not entirely fussed how she gets back. Imo it makes sense we repatriate her. I doubt it'll cost a fraction of the costs we sink into Syria as it is now. I do think we cannot simply remove citizenship from people in this manner though. It sets worrying precedence if we are willing to violate international law on our citizens rights. Whether you like them or not. 

[trotter]

11 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Those nations are not secure enough to host such courts. They need prosecuted in Geneva or the Hague. 

 

Struggle to fathom how these people are all being interviewed on the 6pm news and are living in UN backed camps but we can't somehow get them out to Turkey and back to Britain, France, Netherlands, Germany and so on for trial. 

As mentioned above, just because the press can get in somewhere, does not mean that it's 'safe' for everyone. Journalists are generally exempt from being targeted, whereas if we send in a bunch of government/military types to what is still a pretty dangerous place, there is no guarantee of their safety. Sounds weird I admit, but I believe that is the argument being made by the HO, and if i'm honest, it's a hard one to argue with in my eyes. 

[Zico]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Those nations are not secure enough to host such courts. They need prosecuted in Geneva or the Hague. 

 

Struggle to fathom how these people are all being interviewed on the 6pm news and are living in UN backed camps but we can't somehow get them out to Turkey and back to Britain, France, Netherlands, Germany and so on for trial. 

Agreed on your first point but can’t see it happening any time soon. Until such time, I don’t want them anywhere near the UK. On your second point, just because we could get them out doesn’t mean we should. 

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, trotter said:

As mentioned above, just because the press can get in somewhere, does not mean that it's 'safe' for everyone. Journalists are generally exempt from being targeted, whereas if we send in a bunch of government/military types to what is still a pretty dangerous place, there is no guarantee of their safety. Sounds weird I admit, but I believe that is the argument being made by the HO, and if i'm honest, it's a hard one to argue with in my eyes. 

 

Thing is we have said workers on the ground. Government officials also via the Foreign Office and Department for International Development are in Syria. I fail to see the major issue. Equally, we've allies in Syria who could extract them.

 

Not an easy issue I admit but it's one that isn't going away anytime soon. 

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, Zico said:

Agreed on your first point but can’t see it happening any time soon. Until such time, I don’t want them anywhere near the UK. On your second point, just because we could get them out doesn’t mean we should. 

 

Issue is we are safer with them under lock and key or in rehabilitation than we are with them roaming the middle east spreading their ideologies.

 

The HO still a few months back said repatriation, trial and rehabilitation were the key things to do in such scenarios. This girl and others like her weren't radicalised alone. She could help us better how and why this is happening which helps combat it in the long haul.

 

I'm dubious this would be as much of an issue if it was a UK national fighting for the Kurds stranded with an expectant child nor to my knowledge did we strip them of their citizenship. Christ, I don't think we even did it with IRA prisoners and fighters.

[Zico]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Issue is we are safer with them under lock and key or in rehabilitation than we are with them roaming the middle east spreading their ideologies.

 

The HO still a few months back said repatriation, trial and rehabilitation were the key things to do in such scenarios. This girl and others like her weren't radicalised alone. She could help us better how and why this is happening which helps combat it in the long haul.

 

I'm dubious this would be as much of an issue if it was a UK national fighting for the Kurds stranded with an expectant child nor to my knowledge did we strip them of their citizenship. Christ, I don't think we even did it with IRA prisoners and fighters.

I completely disagree that we’re safer with them locked up over here. More likely that they take the opportunity to radicalise others.

 

And I’m not sure what the nazis, Kurds or IRA have to do with ISIS as they’re all completely different situations and not comparable in the slightest IMO. 

[Der Kaiser]

It's a real shame the baby died but denying her and the babies return was the right decision IMHO. If ISIS were "winning" I can't imagine she'd have been trying to orchestrate her return.

 

Sometimes it feels like us humans don't want to deal with the consequences of our decisions and actions anymore. It's much easier to blame someone else or look for excuses.

Everyone makes mistakes, some bigger than others, but sometimes you just have to live with that. You ****ed up so deal with it. You made a choice.....it didn't go as you wanted it.....stop looking around for someone to blame.....because it's your fault.

 

She left to marry a soldier fighting in a warzone for a terrorist organisation that commits atrocious acts against people but still raise a healthy and safe family at the same time? 

Poor choice love.

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

[John Findlay]

Maybe San Francisco will take her.

[Dagger Is Back]

1 hour ago, Der Kaiser said:

It's a real shame the baby died but denying her and the babies return was the right decision IMHO. If ISIS were "winning" I can't imagine she'd have been trying to orchestrate her return.

 

Sometimes it feels like us humans don't want to deal with the consequences of our decisions and actions anymore. It's much easier to blame someone else or look for excuses.

Everyone makes mistakes, some bigger than others, but sometimes you just have to live with that. You ****ed up so deal with it. You made a choice.....it didn't go as you wanted it.....stop looking around for someone to blame.....because it's your fault.

 

She left to marry a soldier fighting in a warzone for a terrorist organisation that commits atrocious acts against people but still raise a healthy and safe family at the same time? 

Poor choice love.

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

Pretty well summed up for me

[luckyBatistuta]

3 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Maybe San Francisco will take her.

 

Award her citizenship surely

[JamboX2]

6 hours ago, Zico said:

I completely disagree that we’re safer with them locked up over here. More likely that they take the opportunity to radicalise others.

 

That's why education, special measures prison accommodation and de-radicalisation are key. People are more likely to be radicalised when society drops them and moves on without them. To avoid disenfranchising citizens and radicalisation of our younger citizens we really need to go back to the drawing board on quite a lot.

 

The idea they are better off radicalising an area where no real state structures exist anymore unhindered is more dangerous than them being in a British prison. 

 

6 hours ago, Zico said:

 

And I’m not sure what the nazis, Kurds or IRA have to do with ISIS as they’re all completely different situations and not comparable in the slightest IMO. 

 

With due respect, our government removed her of her citizenship for bring affiliated with ISIS. We don't know what she's done beyond affiliate herself and go live under their rule. IRA terrorists we arrested and locked up never had citizenship revoked.

 

Fighting for a foreign allied army of an established state is fine. But fighting for the Kurdish Armed Forces is fighting for a group two of our regional allies (Iraq and Turkey) view as being a terrorist and separatist movement. Yet we haven't stripped people from the UK who fought for them of their rights as British citizens.

 

ISIS are abhorrent. Medieval killers with no real morality. They've massacred and perpetrated horrid crimes. Yet we're not willing to act by our own liberal values we fight them in defence of to try these people for their crimes. Something we did do for the worst group of mass murderers in European history.

 

There are major contradictions in our approach to this situation which I don't fully see as being proportionate or justifiable to our past actions or to comparable situations elsewhere. We need to deal with this. Not let these people disappear into the night and reappear later to cause us pain in future - which they will if left to their own devices.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Legal aid to assist her.