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Should Scotland become an independent country?


Toggie88

Should Scotland become an independent country?   

277 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Scotland become an independent country?

    • Yes
      185
    • No
      92


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2 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Aye, but you post on here! ?

 

I enjoy politics but I'd still never wave a Union Jack flag off a motorway every Saturday or wear badges saying No 4 years after the vote. 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

I enjoy politics but I'd still never wave a Union Jack flag off a motorway every Saturday or wear badges saying No 4 years after the vote. 

 

 

There's numpties on both sides. Lots of uj's in some shops! Can just hear the conversations with the big stores owners and their political pals. Sick of the sight of them on products. Get enough propaganda via msm. 

Edited by Roxy Hearts
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On 19/01/2019 at 20:06, Thunderstruck said:

 

There is a separate study into how many voters would move from No to Yes and vice versa. It looks like a net gain for No. 

392F38DB-049E-4A4A-8357-5E7D9AEC5F97.png

 

Not mentioned in the above graphic, but the shift from Remain NO to Don't Know/Wouldn't vote is interesting.  That's the demographic any Yes campaign has to convince.  Also shows a slight Brexit effect on voting itentions.

 

The graph also appears to show that the greatest shift has come from Remain NO voters, assuming the width of the lines is representative of numbers.

 

Also YES gets more than NO for those that didn't vote in at least one of the referenda.  Interesting.

Edited by Boris
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Thunderstruck
25 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Not mentioned in the above graphic, but the shift from Remain NO to Don't Know/Wouldn't vote is interesting.  That's the demographic any Yes campaign has to convince.  Also shows a slight Brexit effect on voting itentions.

 

The graph also appears to show that the greatest shift has come from Remain NO voters, assuming the width of the lines is representative of numbers.

 

Also YES gets more than NO for those that didn't vote in at least one of the referenda.  Interesting.

 

For me, the survey serves to debunk the notion that the Brexit vote is in some, or any, way a ‘mandate’ for another independence. 

 

If further evidence is needed, the Scottish results in the 2017 General Election showed that the two parties whose aim was to implement Brexit won 57% of the total vote.

 

Of course, that was a General Election fought on a number of issues including the SNP focus on independence instead of the ‘day job’. I have argued that GEs are a poor measure of mandate for momentous constitutional issues but, as you said “dem’s da rools”. 

 

It is also worth noting that the Scottish Greens, the party holding balance of power at Holyrood, collected 5,886 (0.2%) votes in that election. 

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1 minute ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

For me, the survey serves to debunk the notion that the Brexit vote is in some, or any, way a ‘mandate’ for another independence. 

 

If further evidence is needed, the Scottish results in the 2017 General Election showed that the two parties whose aim was to implement Brexit won 57% of the total vote.

 

Of course, that was a General Election fought on a number of issues including the SNP focus on independence instead of the ‘day job’. I have argued that GEs are a poor measure of mandate for momentous constitutional issues but, as you said “dem’s da rools”. 

 

It is also worth noting that the Scottish Greens, the party holding balance of power at Holyrood, collected 5,886 (0.2%) votes in that election. 

 

In relation to FPTP and winning a majority of MP's, iirc.

 

As I said, the image seems to show the greatest shift is with Remain No voters.  They aren't all going to Yes (that would be the real story if it were true!) but it least it shows a softening of position.

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Thunderstruck
1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

In relation to FPTP and winning a majority of MP's, iirc.

 

As I said, the image seems to show the greatest shift is with Remain No voters.  They aren't all going to Yes (that would be the real story if it were true!) but it least it shows a softening of position.

 

The election results, from a year after that study, suggests the opposite with a significant shift away from SNP with the Greens remaining an irrelevance. 

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2 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

The election results, from a year after that study, suggests the opposite with a significant shift away from SNP with the Greens remaining an irrelevance. 

 

You mean the FPTP Westminster election?  A GE that would be "a poor measure of mandate for momentous constitutional issues"?

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7 hours ago, GBJambo said:

I was referring to polls posted on here. Sorry wasn’t clear. 

 

That is a poll posted on here (as in it was a poll of JKB members in the Shed).

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Thunderstruck
20 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

You mean the FPTP Westminster election?  A GE that would be "a poor measure of mandate for momentous constitutional issues"?

 

Your are now being disingenuous. You know full well that General Elections on FPTP are a poor measure when the share of seats is out of proportion to the popular vote and the number of seats is then taken as a mandate. In this case the popular vote showed most support for Cons and Lab. 

 

In 2017, the SNP had 40 odd % of the vote - care to remind us how many seats that got them. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Your are now being disingenuous. You know full well that General Elections on FPTP are a poor measure when the share of seats is out of proportion to the popular vote and the number of seats is then taken as a mandate. In this case the popular vote showed most support for Cons and Lab. 

 

In 2017, the SNP had 40 odd % of the vote - care to remind us how many seats that got them. 

 

 

Haha...easy Big Mon!

 

Point being, as you made, that it wasn't a "Brexit election" - if anything the Tories campaigned on one issue, no indy ref 2.

 

No one is disputing that when you add it all up, unionist parties won the majority of the vote.

 

At least we agree how farcical FPTP is.  Holyrood, is perhaps a better barometer given the proportional aspects of it?  Again, a slight Unionist majority iirc, but vagries allowed for by the proportional system e.g. second vote etc make it hard to really come to a conclusion of overall vote.

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On 21/01/2019 at 12:46, Gorgiewave said:

 

Scottish empire-building.

Didn't help that their King and Queen were traitors.

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1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Your are now being disingenuous. You know full well that General Elections on FPTP are a poor measure when the share of seats is out of proportion to the popular vote and the number of seats is then taken as a mandate. In this case the popular vote showed most support for Cons and Lab. 

 

In 2017, the SNP had 40 odd % of the vote - care to remind us how many seats that got them. 

 

 

I agree with your statement (and would vote yes) but it's also a matter of opinion. For decades, it has been unionists who have been defenders of FPTP. Margaret Thatcher famously said 'there's an independence referendum in Scotland every time there's a general election. If Scotland elects a majority of SNP MPs, then they can have their independence'. Of course at the time that was extremely unlikely and not a threat to the union. 

 

The point is, some ardently argue that FPTP is the best way to elect our representatives. All of them I'm aware of are unionists. 

 

I totally agree that FPTP should be replaced, however we shouldn't forget that the SNP was saying this well before they every benefitted from it. 

Edited by Toggie88
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Thunderstruck
51 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

I agree with your statement (and would vote yes) but it's also a matter of opinion. For decades, it has been unionists who have been defenders of FPTP. Margaret Thatcher famously said 'there's an independence referendum in Scotland every time there's a general election. If Scotland elects a majority of SNP MPs, then they can have their independence'. Of course at the time that was extremely unlikely and not a threat to the union. 

 

The point is, some ardently argue that FPTP is the best way to elect our representatives. All of them I'm aware of are unionists. 

 

I totally agree that FPTP should be replaced, however we shouldn't forget that the SNP was saying this well before they every benefitted from it. 

 

It rather depends upon which model of PR is adopted. The D’Hondt system used at Holyrood is simply a moderated FPTP system and, as we can see, doesn’t allocate seats in accordance with the popular vote. 

 

The only true PR system in use is the Single Transferrable Vote used in Council Elections. That does produce councillors in proportion to preference and usually results in a coalition. In the long-run, that will be to the benefit of council services. 

 

I don't think any party is in favour of STV at national votes. 

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2 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

It rather depends upon which model of PR is adopted. The D’Hondt system used at Holyrood is simply a moderated FPTP system and, as we can see, doesn’t allocate seats in accordance with the popular vote. 

 

The only true PR system in use is the Single Transferrable Vote used in Council Elections. That does produce councillors in proportion to preference and usually results in a coalition. In the long-run, that will be to the benefit of council services. 

 

I don't think any party is in favour of STV at national votes. 

I'd argue party list is truer. Percentage of seats based on votes cast, minimum 5% threshold. 

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1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

It rather depends upon which model of PR is adopted. The D’Hondt system used at Holyrood is simply a moderated FPTP system and, as we can see, doesn’t allocate seats in accordance with the popular vote. 

 

The only true PR system in use is the Single Transferrable Vote used in Council Elections. That does produce councillors in proportion to preference and usually results in a coalition. In the long-run, that will be to the benefit of council services. 

 

I don't think any party is in favour of STV at national votes. 

 

I'm not 100% but I believe the SNP policy was/is for the STV to be used in all elections. There was certainly chat not too long ago about it replacing D'Hondt at Holyrood, seem to remember Maureen Watt submitting a motion or something. 

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6 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All articles within the last week covering the same comments. Nice try.  

 

Also one is a Tory moaning about her talking about. Further enforcing my point that the Tories talk about it more than she does. 

Edited by Toggie88
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1 minute ago, Toggie88 said:

 

All articles within the last week covering the same comments. Nice try.  

 

But if she isn't talking about it you would think she wouldn't mention it. 

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9 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

But if she isn't talking about it you would think she wouldn't mention it. 

 

I never said she wasn't talking about it this week. For the leader of the SNP not to be mentioning independence at all at this stage would be pretty stupid. 

 

You said 'she never shuts up about it' - I said the Tories talk about it more than she does. I was expecting you to respond with a long list of quotes from her about independence over the last few years and I planned to respond in kind with more Tory comments than hers over that time period. Instead you've quoted four tweets from the last week, all highlighting the same comments and one of them is a Tory moaning about it - further making my point!!

 

One way or the other Mikey, you might not like her talking about it and might not like her in government, but she can, is, and has a democratic mandate to go even further. You can moan about her 'moaning about independence' all you like but doesn't make it any less of a credible option at this stage. 

Edited by Toggie88
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10 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

I never said she wasn't talking about it this week. For the leader of the SNP not to be mentioning independence at all at this stage would be pretty stupid. 

 

You said 'she never shuts up about it' - I said the Tories talk about it more than she does. I was expecting you to respond with a long list of quotes from her about independence over the last few years and I planned to respond in kind with more Tory comments than hers over that time period. Instead you've quoted four tweets from the last week, all highlighting the same comments and one of them is a Tory moaning about it - further making my point!!

 

One way or the other Mikey, you might not like her talking about it and might not like her in government, but she can, is, and has a democratic mandate to go even further. You can moan about her 'moaning about independence' all you like but doesn't make it any less of a credible option at this stage. 

 

She has said less about independence in last year or so

 

Presumably because

 

1. People now know a lot of SNP / independence supporters voted for Brexit. So the 'we want to be in EU / Brexit = independence' strategy became less attractive to voters. A big problem for the strategy. 

 

2. Theresa May made it clear no Indyref2 until Brexit is clarified including a period afterwards to see how things actually are. Can't get a poll without UK government approval. 

 

3. Polls are broadly unchanged on 2014 result. The 'I want around 60% in polls' may or may not be the plan.

 

4. The 2017 General Election result and leftward move of Labour. Which meant really needing to get on with the day job to show improvements. 

 

A long way to go to convince people she doesn't need independence. 

 

Edited by Mikey1874
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9 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Sturgeon trying to capitalise and wreck the UK via Brexit. Nothing but a two bit chancer and charaltan. 

Thats being kind buddie.

Its all about her .

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The independence debate is too tribal and dominated by the msm and its biased propaganda. The nuanced intellectual details are rarely discussed and don't get a fair hearing. It's a difficult sell to those who will not listen. An example was a Labour numpty a while back stated, even if Scotland was better off he still wouldn't vote for it! That's what we're dealing with. Democracy is great when it's fair and some of it is fairer than others! 

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1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

Sturgeon trying to capitalise and wreck the UK via Brexit. Nothing but a two bit chancer and charaltan. 

 

:rofl:

 

Have you seen the nick of the Tory Party????  Sturgeon really doesn't have to do anything at all!

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19 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

:rofl:

 

Have you seen the nick of the Tory Party????  Sturgeon really doesn't have to do anything at all!

 

No party is covering themselves in glory with this one. Not one. 

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Trapper John McIntyre
6 hours ago, Boris said:

 

:rofl:

 

Have you seen the nick of the Tory Party????  Sturgeon really doesn't have to do anything at all!

 

 

 

Have you seen the nick of the Scottish National Party???? Sturgeon (allegedly) may have quite a lot to do with something in particular right now!

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Space Mackerel
On 19/01/2019 at 14:51, Brighton Jambo said:

Are you being serious?  The second the Brexit vote was announced she did a press conference launching indyref2, she launched a consultation excercise with the Scottish people explicitly to understand and build the case for independence.  She pushed a motion through parliament demanding a second referendum and only this week publicly talked about Brexit strengthening the case dr independence.  I could go on and on.  

 

If you can’t or won’t accept that she raises it relentlessly you are either a liar or totally delusional.  

 

Major shockeroony as major policy of party is discussed shockeroony.

 

Do you think the Conservatives ever discuss Trade Unions at Conference? :lol:

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Space Mackerel
8 hours ago, JackLadd said:

Sturgeon trying to capitalise and wreck the UK via Brexit. Nothing but a two bit chancer and charaltan. 

 

 

Screenshot_2019-01-24 Poll 60% of Scots would back ‘remain’ in new Scottish independence vote.png

Edited by Space Mackerel
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Thunderstruck
7 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

The independence debate is too tribal and dominated by the msm and its biased propaganda. The nuanced intellectual details are rarely discussed and don't get a fair hearing. It's a difficult sell to those who will not listen. An example was a Labour numpty a while back stated, even if Scotland was better off he still wouldn't vote for it! That's what we're dealing with. Democracy is great when it's fair and some of it is fairer than others! 

 

What - precisely - are you selling and what are the ‘nuanced intellectual technical details’ that rarely get discussed? 

 

Do you mean to tell us that someone magicked-up a plan or prospectus?

 

Perhaps someone got a notion of how to get the ‘difficult times’ down to only a decade. 

 

For every pro-Union voter with an entrenched view there is an equally immovable nationalist who would pursue independence even if it would result in disaster. 

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1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

What - precisely - are you selling and what are the ‘nuanced intellectual technical details’ that rarely get discussed? 

 

Do you mean to tell us that someone magicked-up a plan or prospectus?

 

Perhaps someone got a notion of how to get the ‘difficult times’ down to only a decade. 

 

For every pro-Union voter with an entrenched view there is an equally immovable nationalist who would pursue independence even if it would result in disaster. 

Why are Unionists always so negative about independence? It's natural to want to run your own affairs isn't it? UK is a disaster, it's unequal, biased, in extreme debt, divided, poor politicians, Lords and Ladies in an unelected undemocratic chamber, London!, lobbyists, Westminster!, etc etc etc. 

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4 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Why are Unionists always so negative about independence? It's natural to want to run your own affairs isn't it? UK is a disaster, it's unequal, biased, in extreme debt, divided, poor politicians, Lords and Ladies in an unelected undemocratic chamber, London!, lobbyists, Westminster!, etc etc etc. 

 

Nationalists keep using the term Unionists to categorise anyone who isn't with them.  The simple fact is that the Nationalists simply haven't made any viable case for independence.

 

Also, I think you will find that the House of Commons is a democratically elected chamber.

Edited by frankblack
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3 hours ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

 

 

 

Have you seen the nick of the Scottish National Party???? Sturgeon (allegedly) may have quite a lot to do with something in particular right now!

 

Alas, clairvoyance is not a gift I possess, if you look at when I posted.

 

Although point still stands regards the omnishambles that is the uk government.

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44 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Nationalists keep using the term Unionists to categorise anyone who isn't with them.  The simple fact is that the Nationalists simply haven't made any viable case for independence.

 

Also, I think you will find that the House of Commons is a democratically elected chamber.

Not Lords where the Lords and Ladies are! Give me a viable case for GB. Nearly 2 trillion on debt. Is every country viable or do we just have to prove it for Scotland? 

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6 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

I'd be up for giving Independence to those areas that voted for it like Scumdee and the Weedge. Fairs fair.

You can keep Larkhall. 

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9 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

You can keep Larkhall. 

 

Yup, we manufactured an artificial border in Ireland  a century ago, let's rope off nat towns like we did Ulster.

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1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

 

Yup, we manufactured an artificial border in Ireland  a century ago, let's rope off nat towns like we did Ulster.

Westminster has done enough damage with it's divide and conquer. 

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Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

Westminster has done enough damage with it's divide and conquer. 

 

At least conquering Larkhall and Greenock would not cause much noticeable damage.

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5 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

At least conquering Larkhall and Greenock would not cause much noticeable damage.

A wee lol there. As much as I want independence, I don't think it will happen soon but happy to be proved wrong. I just think the Union has run its course and both countries are going in different directions. 

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27 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

A wee lol there. As much as I want independence, I don't think it will happen soon but happy to be proved wrong. I just think the Union has run its course and both countries are going in different directions. 

 

the economic case for it is weak to non existent when you peak under the SNP bonnet. "But Brexit" might be the new rallying cry but Scotland as an EU member on the Euro with a hard border with England would see us reduced to a heavily indebted Baltic republic type situation. The new SNP govt would need to boost the population by at least 1m with decent education to raise taxation levels to get close to the current Barnet level but the reality is many more would leave and the treasury coffers shrink resulting in hardship and cuts. Not worth it. 

Edited by JackLadd
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8 hours ago, JackLadd said:

 

the economic case for it is weak to non existent when you peak under the SNP bonnet. "But Brexit" might be the new rallying cry but Scotland as an EU member on the Euro with a hard border with England would see us reduced to a heavily indebted Baltic republic type situation. The new SNP govt would need to boost the population by at least 1m with decent education to raise taxation levels to get close to the current Barnet level but the reality is many more would leave and the treasury coffers shrink resulting in hardship and cuts. Not worth it. 

Barnet! There we wouldn't be a SNP government there would be Scottish General Election and we would pick the best party with the best policies to run the country. Same border in Ireland. I know WM isn't the most mature parliament at dealing with issues and would like to see us fail but we would be stronger IMO. 

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jack D and coke
22 hours ago, Toggie88 said:

 

All articles within the last week covering the same comments. Nice try.  

 

Also one is a Tory moaning about her talking about. Further enforcing my point that the Tories talk about it more than she does. 

All the other parties talk about it more than the SNP. A very deliberate tactic for me too. Batter you over the head with it over and over and again until your sick of hearing about it. I’m sure Ruth Davidson mentioned it over 20-30 times in a leaflet for local elections. It’s defintely a tactic of the unionist parties. 

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2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

All the other parties talk about it more than the SNP. A very deliberate tactic for me too. Batter you over the head with it over and over and again until your sick of hearing about it. I’m sure Ruth Davidson mentioned it over 20-30 times in a leaflet for local elections. It’s defintely a tactic of the unionist parties. 

Absolutely. They're trying to destroy them to kill independence. Establishment tactics. 

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jack D and coke
11 hours ago, JackLadd said:

 

the economic case for it is weak to non existent when you peak under the SNP bonnet. "But Brexit" might be the new rallying cry but Scotland as an EU member on the Euro with a hard border with England would see us reduced to a heavily indebted Baltic republic type situation. The new SNP govt would need to boost the population by at least 1m with decent education to raise taxation levels to get close to the current Barnet level but the reality is many more would leave and the treasury coffers shrink resulting in hardship and cuts. Not worth it. 

Eat what your given and like it? Is that what Scotland has got to look forward to?

Stripped of all our wealth and at the mercy of what England decides forvevermore regardless of what it causes? 

Watch Boris Johnson’s and Rees Moggs telling you what’s what and be thankful for it too? 

Scotland is full of cowards. 

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3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Eat what your given and like it? Is that what Scotland has got to look forward to?

Stripped of all our wealth and at the mercy of what England decides forvevermore regardless of what it causes? 

Watch Boris Johnson’s and Rees Moggs telling you what’s what and be thankful for it too? 

Scotland is full of cowards. 

Scotland is full of traitors.

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On 22/01/2019 at 13:21, Thunderstruck said:

 

For me, the survey serves to debunk the notion that the Brexit vote is in some, or any, way a ‘mandate’ for another independence. 

 

 

The government stated they would call for another referendum in the case of UK leaving the EU. This, looks, like it will be happening so they will be sticking to their manifesto promise, for which they have a mandate. Any argument against this is just hot air. I get you are totally against an independent Scotland but they certainly have a mandate to call for a referendum

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45 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Eat what your given and like it? Is that what Scotland has got to look forward to?

Stripped of all our wealth and at the mercy of what England decides forvevermore regardless of what it causes? 

Watch Boris Johnson’s and Rees Moggs telling you what’s what and be thankful for it too? 

Scotland is full of cowards. 

Agree with this JDC. 

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On 24/01/2019 at 10:32, Mikey1874 said:

 

But if she isn't talking about it you would think she wouldn't mention it. 

every week at PMQs, every question from the SNP (which are never ever answered), result in May moaning about Independence. Every single time

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On 24/01/2019 at 10:50, Mikey1874 said:

 

She has said less about independence in last year or so

 

Presumably because

 

1. People now know a lot of SNP / independence supporters voted for Brexit. So the 'we want to be in EU / Brexit = independence' strategy became less attractive to voters. A big problem for the strategy. 

 

2. Theresa May made it clear no Indyref2 until Brexit is clarified including a period afterwards to see how things actually are. Can't get a poll without UK government approval. 

 

3. Polls are broadly unchanged on 2014 result. The 'I want around 60% in polls' may or may not be the plan.

 

4. The 2017 General Election result and leftward move of Labour. Which meant really needing to get on with the day job to show improvements. 

 

A long way to go to convince people she doesn't need independence. 

 

so now you have been shown to be wrong you change your argument????

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