Should Scotland become an independent country?

[Toggie88]

13 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

So, getting 45% of the popular vote is now a ‘mandate’ (that includes the Green vote). 

 

Mind you, that was before the 2017 UKPGE when there was a considerable swing away from the SNP which ended up with 37% of the vote. Maybe that was also a ‘mandate’. Also note that this was a year after the EU Referendum. 

 

We also hear that the vote in the EU Referendum somehow conferred a mandate. I wouldn’t be so sure...

 

 A majority of seats won in the 2016 Scottish Parliament election were won by parties which support independence. Furthermore, the SNP managed to form a government as a result of those elections. They therefor have a mandate to carry out their manifesto - that's fact. 

 

You can link to polls of 3000 people all you want, but that doesn't change what is and isn't a mandate... And swings to or away from any party doesn't mean anything outside of the larger context of the election results. If I stand one year and win 90% of the vote, and then the next time I only get 89% of the vote, does that change my mandate? No. 

 

Also, that poll actually highlights why there should be a referendum!! Over the half the people who voted no, wanted to remain inside the EU and are now being dragged out against their will... It's reasonable to suggest that some may now support independence in order to remain inside the EU.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Toggie88

[Toggie88]

12 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

No worries!  Have a good evening 

 

Likewise!?

[Thunderstruck]

6 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

 A majority of seats won in the 2016 Scottish Parliament election were won by parties which support independence. Furthermore, the SNP managed to form a government as a result of those elections. They therefor have a mandate to carry out their manifesto - that's fact. 

 

You can link to polls of 3000 people all you want, but that doesn't change what is and isn't a mandate... And swings to or away from any party doesn't mean anything outside of the larger context of the election results. If I stand one year and win 90% of the vote, and then the next time I only get 89% of the vote, does that change my mandate? No. 

 

Going by number of seats won in elections run on FPTP. Seems sound. 

 

Unfortunately for that notion, referendums work on share of the vote. 

 

If you stand in 2015 and get 50% of the vote and, 2 years later, it drops to 37% - does that change your mandate? You might think not but you might be in for a surprise?

 

There is a separate study into how many voters would move from No to Yes and vice versa. It looks like a net gain for No. 

[Toggie88]

1 minute ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Going by number of seats won in elections run on FPTP. Seems sound. 

 

Unfortunately for that notion, referendums work on share of the vote. 

 

If you stand in 2015 and get 50% of the vote and, 2 years later, it drops to 37% - does that change your mandate? You might think not but you might be in for a surprise?

 

There is a separate study into how many voters would move from No to Yes and vice versa. It looks like a net gain for No. 

 

The fact that referendums are on share of the vote doesn't make any difference to whether or not there is a mandate to hold one. 

 

Simply put, the SNP and Green Party both stood on manifestos promising another referendum (in certain circumstances) in 2016. Both parties control a majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament, the SNP was able to form a government and therefor has a mandate and moreover a duty to enact their manifesto. 

 

I can see your poll... A survey of 3000 people does not have any standing next to the results of an election and has no impact on mandate. It's also two years out of date. 

[Thunderstruck]

5 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

The fact that referendums are on share of the vote doesn't make any difference to whether or not there is a mandate to hold one. 

 

Simply put, the SNP and Green Party both stood on manifestos promising another referendum (in certain circumstances) in 2016. Both parties control a majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament, the SNP was able to form a government and therefor has a mandate and moreover a duty to enact their manifesto. 

 

I can see your poll... A survey of 3000 people does not have any standing next to the results of an election and has no impact on mandate. It's also two years out of date. 

 

Add the long-term SSAS (see the very recent update from John Curtice) to the percentage of vote in all these elections and the signs are that it will be a bigger defeat than last time and that will put an end to it. 

 

I would say say bring it on but is it really worth putting the country through another couple of years of turmoil to prove the point. 

 

 

 

 

[obua]

Vote snp

vote Nicola 

vote minimum pricing 

vote salad for dinner

vote eu still making your rules

vote independence.

[Roxy Hearts]

27 minutes ago, obua said:

Vote snp

vote Nicola 

vote minimum pricing 

vote salad for dinner

vote eu still making your rules

vote independence.

Vote WM ruling your life

Vote propaganda 

Vote stupidity

Vote May or Corbyn and their ilk! 

Vote Johnson and Rees Mogg 

Vote archaic system 

Vote idiocy 

Vote...... 

[luckydug]

12 hours ago, Harry Potter said:

Wonder what the cost would be now for a 2nd vote, was it not about 18 million the last time, monies now we cant afford.

We could always merge it with a vote on doing away with the RF.

Two votes for the price of one.

[jake]

 

9 hours ago, Cade said:

Westminster is a complete shambles and the last two years have fully exposed how unfit for purpose it is in the 21st Century.

 

Many people on this thread will be arguing the question "COULD" Scotland be an independent country, which is not the question in hand.

Says the guy who holds the EU up as the answer.

 

Fek8n joke the hypocrisy from those who talk utter shite.

 

You want to break up a union wh8ch smothers smaller democracy.

 

All day long.

For me.

 

But you get Aussie and cade making a pure shop front of themselves

[jake]

55 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Vote WM ruling your life

Vote propaganda 

Vote stupidity

Vote May or Corbyn and their ilk! 

Vote Johnson and Rees Mogg 

Vote archaic system 

Vote idiocy 

Vote...... 

Vote remain

Vote independence.

 

Vote making a shop front of yourself.

 

How  can you vote Indy bit not brexit without being clueless?

Ask8ng for a un8corn

[Roxy Hearts]

6 minutes ago, jake said:

Vote remain

Vote independence.

 

Vote making a shop front of yourself.

 

How  can you vote Indy bit not brexit without being clueless?

Ask8ng for a un8corn

I voted Brexit. What do you mean? 

[Sarah O]

Interesting gauge of KB as it stands. I thought It was mostly staunch unionists here...

 

Or maybe they just continue to howl the longest.

[Rab87]

It really does depend what happens in the next two years with Brexit, my mind could be changed either way depending on how it goes. Asking the question before the dust settles feels irresponsible. 

[ri Alban]

7 hours ago, jake said:

 

Says the guy who holds the EU up as the answer.

 

Fek8n joke the hypocrisy from those who talk utter shite.

 

You want to break up a union wh8ch smothers smaller democracy.

 

All day long.

For me.

 

But you get Aussie and cade making a pure shop front of themselve

Drinking on an empty head again. If you think Wm is controlled by the EU the way Scotland is telt by Wm.  

 

I voted remain to trigger Indyref2, (which is what will happen) but unlike you, I'll be voting independence for Scotland. Independence is my goal. But, It seems to me you voted yes so we could leave the EU and you will now vote no , so you leave the EU. Brexit is your goal.

 

Just for a laugh, I hope these new trade deals are all with Africa, The Indian subcontinent and the Middle East and they all demand freedom of movement. Oh to see your face. 

[Toggie88]

8 hours ago, jake said:

Vote remain

Vote independence.

 

Vote making a shop front of yourself.

 

How  can you vote Indy bit not brexit without being clueless?

Ask8ng for a un8corn

 

A UK to EU comparison is beyond ridiculous and shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of how either operate. 

 

From a very basis starting point, the EU is a union of 28 independent member states and the UK is a unitary nation state. The EU allows member states to retain sovereignty while the UK removes sovereignty from its member countries.

The EU requires unanimity from its members to successfully pass legislation and domestic parliaments still need to enact the legislation. The UK has absolutely none of that and will willingly ride roughshod over the wishes of one of its constituent countries whenever it feels like it.

The Commissioners and Presidencies of the EU also rotate equally among its members regardless of size, so Luxembourg for example will be on an equal footing to Germany and France. The UK does not (due to its unitary set-up). 

 

Think of it this way. The EU is a bus, where everyone on the bus gets a say in where it goes, where it stops, who gets on and everyone gets a turn to drive. The UK is a car, where there is one driver who decides everything - they may have 'votes' on issues, but the driver's vote always counts more than the others combined. Would you rather be on the bus or in the car?*

 

*Should also add that the car is currently heading for a cliff and the driver can't decide between turning left, turning right or getting back on the bus. 

[redm]

1 hour ago, Sarah O said:

Interesting gauge of KB as it stands. I thought It was mostly staunch unionists here...

 

Or maybe they just continue to howl the longest.

 

Iirc it was the same in every independence poll we had on the forum in the run up to the referendum. Previous polls have had bigger numbers of participants too, this one is still quite new so might yet grow. 

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, Sarah O said:

Interesting gauge of KB as it stands. I thought It was mostly staunch unionists here...

 

Or maybe they just continue to howl the longest.

 

I said Yes but would really vote no. 

 

Thats the problem with online polls, they are open to abuse and not worthy of much attention. 

[XB52]

2 hours ago, Sarah O said:

Interesting gauge of KB as it stands. I thought It was mostly staunch unionists here...

 

Or maybe they just continue to howl the longest.

Exactly. You would expect the poll to be 75% to 25% against independence going by the amount of unionists posting on every thread. This poll shows an even bigger percentage in favour of independence as the main vocal unionists won't have a vote in the real referendum as they don't live in Scotland

[XB52]

48 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

I said Yes but would really vote no. 

 

Thats the problem with online polls, they are open to abuse and not worthy of much attention. 

If course you did. Every poll on here over the years has shown a majority in favour of independence, as has every poll on other fans websites, apart from one obvious exception 

[Jambo100]

In the E U no. leave the E U yes.

[ri Alban]

2 minutes ago, Jambo100 said:

In the E U no. leave the E U yes.

We won't be in the EU. A party will have to be elected with it in their manifesto. Independence, then we decide .

[jack D and coke]

23 hours ago, Herbert said:

I want Scotland to be independent, The way Westminster is now all it would take is the SNP to do a better job running the country and that would tip the balance. Endless talk of independence is tiring though and I would rather they shut up about it until they can say were definitely having another vote.

It’s tiring I agree mate. 

Who goes on about it the most though? The SNP or the anti SNP parties/media? 

[SwindonJambo]

This poll will tell us absolutely nothing useful beyond what previous similar polls have always shown i.e.  the balance of JKB opinions expressed bear zero relation to those of the wider general public and it’s the latter that matters. It’s all hot air, or rather hot keyboards.

[jambos are go!]

Scottish MPs including SNP MPs have never had more power and control over decision making in the UK than they do over Brexit. IMO.

[GBJambo]

5 hours ago, XB52 said:

Exactly. You would expect the poll to be 75% to 25% against independence going by the amount of unionists posting on every thread. This poll shows an even bigger percentage in favour of independence as the main vocal unionists won't have a vote in the real referendum as they don't live in Scotland

Nope 

Every poll on independence prior to and after the referendum had yes as clear winner with around 80%. 

The poll is pointless.

[XB52]

2 hours ago, GBJambo said:

Nope 

Every poll on independence prior to and after the referendum had yes as clear winner with around 80%. 

The poll is pointless.

Funny how the  result of this poll is only pointless to the unionists. Of course I agree this poll changes nothing. It does however show that the very very vocal unionists on here are very much the minority on jkb 

[Cruyff Turn]

Should have always remained an Independent Country. 

[Dawnrazor]

24 minutes ago, XB52 said:

It does however show that the very very vocal unionists on here are very much the minority on jkb 

And?....... 

[Trapper John McIntyre]

24 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Funny how the  result of this poll is only pointless to the unionists. Of course I agree this poll changes nothing. It does however show that the very very vocal unionists on here are very much the minority on jkb 

And yet they are the majority in the country.

 

Life's a bitch.

[spirt of 98]

It’s time to stop banging on about an independence vote. The vote should be once in a generation. What happens after we are independent in a few years and shits going wrong do we hold another referendum to return to the union. Where does it end. This is getting silly. 

[GBJambo]

23 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Funny how the  result of this poll is only pointless to the unionists. Of course I agree this poll changes nothing. It does however show that the very very vocal unionists on here are very much the minority on jkb 

It’s pointless because it doesn’t accurately reflect the  mood  of the nation 

[jambos are go!]

44 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Funny how the  result of this poll is only pointless to the unionists. Of course I agree this poll changes nothing. It does however show that the very very vocal unionists on here are very much the minority on jkb 

Did you get involved on here during the referendum campaign or have you a short memory? This type of thread was  awash with separatist  supporters including   zealots. Same for Unionists but not as many. IMO

[Sarah O]

1 hour ago, XB52 said:

Funny how the  result of this poll is only pointless to the unionists. Of course I agree this poll changes nothing. It does however show that the very very vocal unionists on here are very much the minority on jkb 

And the wee guy waving his mum's tea towel it in the second half today at the corner of Gorgie/Wheatfield 

 

He/they looked utterly foolish. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Sarah O

[XB52]

3 hours ago, GBJambo said:

It’s pointless because it doesn’t accurately reflect the  mood  of the nation 

It's a jkb poll so reflects the mood of jkb.  We will see if it reflects the mood in the country when indyref2 happens 

[XB52]

3 hours ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

And yet they were the majority in the country.

 

Life's a bitch.

Ftfy  we will find out if they are still the majority after indyref2 

[Jim Weir]

On 19/01/2019 at 13:34, Toggie88 said:

 

Because you can't. I'm very well informed on Scottish politics, whereas I think you're just lapping up the Tories/Labour/LibDem narrative - prove me wrong.  

That's evidently not the case 

[Maple Leaf]

6 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Should have always remained an Independent Country. 

 

"Such a parcel of rogues in a nation."

[Trapper John McIntyre]

8 hours ago, XB52 said:

Ftfy  we will find out if they are still the majority after indyref2 

 

When's that happening?

[Cruyff Turn]

6 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

"Such a parcel of rogues in a nation."

True to this day. 

[Thunderstruck]

22 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Drinking on an empty head again. If you think Wm is controlled by the EU the way Scotland is telt by Wm.  

 

I voted remain to trigger Indyref2, (which is what will happen) but unlike you, I'll be voting independence for Scotland. Independence is my goal. But, It seems to me you voted yes so we could leave the EU and you will now vote no , so you leave the EU. Brexit is your goal.

 

Just for a laugh, I hope these new trade deals are all with Africa, The Indian subcontinent and the Middle East and they all demand freedom of movement. Oh to see your face. 

 

Regarding the EU, take the example of TTIP/CTEA, how many of the 28 countries had any say whatsoever in the framing of these agreements? These (CETA thus far) were arranged by Juncker and his inner sanctum and then handed down for implementation. 

 

Regarding a post-independence Scotland which you envisage as outside the U.K. and outside the EU, do you really think all of these other countries (including Scotland’s major trading partner) are going to say - ‘we love you, man, here’s a nice wee trading arrangement with no strings attached’?

 

Of course not, there are always strings attached, there is always a quid pro quo. For example, it is entirely possible that trade with the US or Canada might be at the expense of a CETA type of arrangement with all of the implications that holds for public services. 

[Gorgiewave]

No, nay, never.

[Gorgiewave]

11 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

"Such a parcel of rogues in a nation."

 

Scottish empire-building.

[geomac]

On 20/01/2019 at 08:56, Sarah O said:

Interesting gauge of KB as it stands. I thought It was mostly staunch unionists here...

 

Or maybe they just continue to howl the longest.

 

I think that's hit the nail on the head

[Toggie88]

On 20/01/2019 at 16:44, GBJambo said:

Nope 

Every poll on independence prior to and after the referendum had yes as clear winner with around 80%. 

The poll is pointless.

Aye? 

 

Yes: 47%

No: 41%

DK: 11%

 

[GBJambo]

8 hours ago, Toggie88 said:

Aye? 

 

Yes: 47%

No: 41%

DK: 11%

 

I was referring to polls posted on here. Sorry wasn’t clear. 

 

[Hasselhoff]

On 20/01/2019 at 18:55, XB52 said:

Funny how the  result of this poll is only pointless to the unionists. Of course I agree this poll changes nothing. It does however show that the very very vocal unionists on here are very much the minority on jkb 

 

Most No voters don't consider themselves as unionists and spend no time thinking about independence. They are the non-vocal majority. 

 

Scottish nationalism is like a club with badge makers, flag wavers and relentless banging on about it. A no voter doesn't need to do any of these things. 

 

As a no voter, it is not worth getting involved in arguments as pro-Indy supporters can be incredibly vindictive and seek to destroy your livelihood for having a negative opinion of Queen Nicola. I saw just yesterday some company called Graham's of Inverness had tweeted mocking Sturgeon / SNP and so had been targeted by the nationalists with the aim to destroy their business. Considering it is a Scottish business it is sad that people feel the need to do this to someone they disagree with. This is why the vocal majority stay quiet and don't get involved. 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

Most No voters don't consider themselves as unionists and spend no time thinking about independence. They are the non-vocal majority. 

 

Scottish nationalism is like a club with badge makers, flag wavers and relentless banging on about it. A no voter doesn't need to do any of these things. 

 

As a no voter, it is not worth getting involved in arguments as pro-Indy supporters can be incredibly vindictive and seek to destroy your livelihood for having a negative opinion of Queen Nicola. I saw just yesterday some company called Graham's of Inverness had tweeted mocking Sturgeon / SNP and so had been targeted by the nationalists with the aim to destroy their business. Considering it is a Scottish business it is sad that people feel the need to do this to someone they disagree with. This is why the vocal majority stay quiet and don't get involved. 

Aye, but you post on here! ?

[XB52]

3 hours ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

Most No voters don't consider themselves as unionists and spend no time thinking about independence. They are the non-vocal majority. 

 

Scottish nationalism is like a club with badge makers, flag wavers and relentless banging on about it. A no voter doesn't need to do any of these things. 

 

As a no voter, it is not worth getting involved in arguments as pro-Indy supporters can be incredibly vindictive and seek to destroy your livelihood for having a negative opinion of Queen Nicola. I saw just yesterday some company called Graham's of Inverness had tweeted mocking Sturgeon / SNP and so had been targeted by the nationalists with the aim to destroy their business. Considering it is a Scottish business it is sad that people feel the need to do this to someone they disagree with. This is why the vocal majority stay quiet and don't get involved. 

So a company mocks our first minister and gets a reaction, how strange. I would never give my business to anyone actively campaigning against independence as is my choice. That business should surely flourish with the business all these no voters will give them though.

[SE16 3LN]

Scotland is an independent country

[XB52]

1 minute ago, SE16 3LN said:

Scotland is an independent country

????