Jump to content
Hearts Daft

Dundee Merger

Recommended Posts

Hearts Daft

Not sure if there has been a thread on this previously but saw the report below about a possible Dundee merger on the Scotsman website and was wondering what the views of the ordinary Hearts supporter were. Personally, I feel that Dundee is too small a city to have two first rate clubs and that at least on paper a merger would allow a club from Dundee more scope to challenge at the top. However I'm old enough to remember the great Dundee United side of the 70s and 80s and if I were a supporter of either club (which I'm not) I would be totally opposed to a merger. I think the danger is that a merger could lead to a lot of stalwarts for both clubs giving up watching football. I know I would if ever there were an Edinburgh merger.

 

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/dundee/merger-fear-as-dundee-owners-bid-to-up-their-stake-1-4854939

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mitch41

The fans would never accept a merger. Yes it would make sense but the loyalty to these 

clubs in the city is very strong. I’ve worked on sites in the Dundee area and the subject 

has come up and no Dundee or United fan has ever been for a merger. Now if a new 

ground was to be built with the two clubs sharing it that might be a different story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DH1986

No chance of a merger. Closest they’ll get is the inevitable sharing of a stadium....they should have done that years ago.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
XB52

Share a new ground but not a merger. Obviously, if we were starting football from scratch, it would make perfect sense to have only one club in Dundee, but you can't just erase their histories.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ray Gin

If not merge at least share a stadium. 2 stadiums across the road from each other is mental.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Boris
3 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

The fans would never accept a merger. Yes it would make sense but the loyalty to these 

clubs in the city is very strong. I’ve worked on sites in the Dundee area and the subject 

has come up and no Dundee or United fan has ever been for a merger. Now if a new 

ground was to be built with the two clubs sharing it that might be a different story.

 

That would be very sensible, but actually merging the clubs would be disasterous, imo.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cruyff Turn

There is quite a few Dundee and Utd fans I know that would be happy to see one Dundee side although I don’t think this view would be shared by older generations. 

I think they are just sick of watching shite and understand the potential one Dundee side could have. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I.T.K

I dont think Dundee is big enough for one first rate club! (On a European level.)

 

However I think having 2 clubs in one city breeds competition and helps both clubs. Derby games will always bring in more money.

 

Edited by I.T.K

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Independence
6 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

The fans would never accept a merger. Yes it would make sense but the loyalty to these 

clubs in the city is very strong. I’ve worked on sites in the Dundee area and the subject 

has come up and no Dundee or United fan has ever been for a merger. Now if a new 

ground was to be built with the two clubs sharing it that might be a different story.

The fans of the two famous clubs is no different to any other....... They love their club. They love their culture and history, just as we do and would never accept a merger with H1b5! Teams such as Arbroath, Forfar and Montrose could merge. It makes sense but their fans will protect their identity by staying as one team. I suppose we could all merge and have one team in Scotland...wait a moment!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tommy Brown

I stand open to correction. but I am sure when this was close to happening 20 years or so ago.

 

Wee Jum McLean was quoted as "The new team will play at Tannadice, wear tangerine and be called Dundee United"

:lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Independence
4 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

There is quite a few Dundee and Utd fans I know that would be happy to see one Dundee side although I don’t think this view would be shared by older generations. 

I think they are just sick of watching shite and understand the potential one Dundee side could have. 

I also know several Dundee and Dundee Utd fans and they never voice this opinion. They will guard/protect  their own club with vigour.Who are we to say if other clubs merge whilst staying we would never merge with H1b5...there is no difference. Winning cups/leagues is secondary to retaining identity, culture and history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cruyff Turn
1 minute ago, Independence said:

I also know several Dundee and Dundee Utd fans and they never voice this opinion. They will guard/protect  their own club with vigour.Who are we to say if other clubs merge whilst staying we would never merge with H1b5...there is no difference. Winning cups/leagues is secondary to retaining identity, culture and history.

I agree, I can’t quite understand it. As I say, it’s more younger folk. I know quite a few older ones that would never accept it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Deek

I live in Dundee and most of my friends here support Dundee. They don’t want any form of merger. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Phil Dunphy

If someone had asked my dad if he’d ever accept a merger between the two clubs, he’d have told you to **** off. 

 

And my dad never swore. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Toggie88

Similar views to the others on this thread. 

 

If you were to look at it as a complete outsider, you would probably argue for a merger. However, regardless of whether or not it's a good idea, the sentiment from the fans will block it.

 

You also have to ask yourself, what's the potential benefit? Both clubs fan bases are probably in the top 10 of the country - on size. Merging the two would probably still leave them behind us, Aberdeen and maybe Hibs. So a new 'Dundee City' would likely compete at a higher level than both clubs do currently, but it wouldn't be at a level to compete with either of the Old Firm. 

 

Taking off the maroon tinted specs for a brief second, the biggest pay-off in terms of potential success from a merger in Scottish football would be an Edinburgh merger. As with Mercers plan, a combined Edinburgh team which took both fan bases would probably be able to compete with the OF financially (when Mercers came up with his plan, the super clubs from Europe were still in reach). It will never happen for the same reason it will never happen in Dundee - neither set of fans want it. 

Edited by Toggie88

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hearts Daft

The entire project reeks of rich Americans coming in who have got no understanding of the culture in Scotland and how for many their club is part of their identity. It's interesting that Inverness with a bigger population than Dingwall get smaller crowds than Ross County. Many of the Inverness Thistle and Inverness Caledonian supporters probably walked away after the creation of ICT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
davemclaren

I’m not against clubs merging but not convinced on this one. If they were to merge you could, in theory, create a club at the the sameish level as Hearts/Hibs/Aberdeen. Does that really benefit Scottish football?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jr ewing

Shared stadium would make sense. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dallas Green

I don't ever get the "too small a city to have two first rate clubs" 

 

It sound football snobbish.

 

With the history these clubs have I could really never see a merger. Ground share is probably the most sensible option for them though but both sets of fans love their own ground.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
graygo
1 hour ago, Hearts Daft said:

Not sure if there has been a thread on this previously but saw the report below about a possible Dundee merger on the Scotsman website and was wondering what the views of the ordinary Hearts supporter were. Personally, I feel that Dundee is too small a city to have two first rate clubs and that at least on paper a merger would allow a club from Dundee more scope to challenge at the top. However I'm old enough to remember the great Dundee United side of the 70s and 80s and if I were a supporter of either club (which I'm not) I would be totally opposed to a merger. I think the danger is that a merger could lead to a lot of stalwarts for both clubs giving up watching football. I know I would if ever there were an Edinburgh merger.

 

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/dundee/merger-fear-as-dundee-owners-bid-to-up-their-stake-1-4854939

 

It probably wouldn't but if that was all that mattered there wouldn't be many clubs around to support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ToadKiller Dog

A merger of both clubs won't really make much of a difference both clubs on their own are capable of a top half finish and a rare cup final and at their worst being where united are now and Dundee have been. 

I really don't see a single dundee club doing much better. 

There's no guarantee they would take all the supporters of each side with them, look at the bitterness still in Inverness with that merger. 

Don't think a merger is on the cards apart from the stadium. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
davemclaren

Even a merged Hearts/Hibs would be half the size of the Old Firm. What we need is an East Coast United. ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fabienleclerq

In Scottish football terms I don't see how Dundee isn't big enough for two teams. Not ground sharing is mental though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Smithee

It's funny, it's obviously a cultural thing. In Holland and Belgium mergers have been pretty commonplace over the years, but here we're dead against it (myself included!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nookie Bear

Two medium-sized clubs merging into one laughable, diddy club.

 

I'm all for it !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kila

Just build a decent new stadium, 20-25k so it can host semis and some Scotland games (like the Nations League).

 

A modern decent ground will encourage more fans to go along.

 

Don't need to merge the clubs, bad plan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
davemclaren
2 minutes ago, kila said:

Just build a decent new stadium, 20-25k so it can host semis and some Scotland games (like the Nations League).

 

A modern decent ground will encourage more fans to go along.

 

Don't need to merge the clubs, bad plan.

Neither club needs a stadium that size. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tian447
1 hour ago, mitch41 said:

The fans would never accept a merger. Yes it would make sense but the loyalty to these 

clubs in the city is very strong. I’ve worked on sites in the Dundee area and the subject 

has come up and no Dundee or United fan has ever been for a merger. Now if a new 

ground was to be built with the two clubs sharing it that might be a different story.

 

Absolutely, everywhere you go in the town, you see people wearing Dundee or United jackets, shirts, hats, and most people Dundee support one of the local teams.  There actually doesn't seem to be as many Old Firm supporting tinks here as there are in other places in Scotland, which is good to see when compared to those supporting the City teams.

 

They would never ever accept a merger, and doing so would be complete suicide.  Supporters would rather pack it in altogether than go and support a merged club.

 

Plus orange shirts and navy shorts would be a shite combo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tian447
Just now, davemclaren said:

Neither club needs a stadium that size. 

 

True, but I would argue that the City would benefit from it the most.  Being able to host Scotland games, Cup Semi Finals and other big games would be a huge boost to Dundee.

 

I believe the proposed space for such a stadium is up by the Ice Rink / Cinema near Camperdown.  Easily accessible from the Kingsway, and although on the outskirts, Dundee isn't that big a place.

 

The hardest part would be convincing the two teams to give up their historical homes, and blend into a soulless Lego Stadium.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Icon of Symmetry

Get the great American manager ‘Fran Chisse’ in and call themselves ‘The Dundee Braves’. Job done. ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hagar the Horrible

When will people realise that what fans want and what they get can be 2 things poles apart, if the owners of both clubs decide and build a new stadium so as its a new home for both then it happens?  Fan power is a big thing but it takes a lot for it to win, 

 

When hibs were in trouble with the pubs they bought, Mercer came in and nearly wiped them out, but in truth he saved them as they had some money men rally around and save them (STF).Celtic 1 hour from extinction until wee Fergus came in,   Both got lucky, we had Mercer, then Romanov, now Ann, luck not required, we saved our club?   Sevco  one shark bigger than the next but they are still here,  Dundee twice,  and Utd only by the grace of a couple of people keep them going.  Hibs, Celtic, Livi, Motherwell and Sevco got lucky.  Gretna not so.  Apart from us  Fans played no part.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is Dundee fans and Utd fans, no matter how passionate they are, there is just not enough and if a Dundee City came along, and its a choice between shopping (in Dundee with your wife/sister - same thing) or going to a game in a new stadium and buying a tangerine and blue scarf, then its the later, or they can come and see the Jambos!!!!!!!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
davemclaren
8 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

When will people realise that what fans want and what they get can be 2 things poles apart, if the owners of both clubs decide and build a new stadium so as its a new home for both then it happens?  Fan power is a big thing but it takes a lot for it to win, 

 

When hibs were in trouble with the pubs they bought, Mercer came in and nearly wiped them out, but in truth he saved them as they had some money men rally around and save them (STF).Celtic 1 hour from extinction until wee Fergus came in,   Both got lucky, we had Mercer, then Romanov, now Ann, luck not required, we saved our club?   Sevco  one shark bigger than the next but they are still here,  Dundee twice,  and Utd only by the grace of a couple of people keep them going.  Hibs, Celtic, Livi, Motherwell and Sevco got lucky.  Gretna not so.  Apart from us  Fans played no part.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is Dundee fans and Utd fans, no matter how passionate they are, there is just not enough and if a Dundee City came along, and its a choice between shopping (in Dundee with your wife/sister - same thing) or going to a game in a new stadium and buying a tangerine and blue scarf, then its the later, or they can come and see the Jambos!!!!!!!

 

 

The Dundee supporters group still own enough shares to block amny ground sharing or merger moves I believe  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
martoon

A merger would be pointless and a tragedy for the fans of both clubs. A combined club would possibly, in time, attract fans, particularly the young and yet to be born, but I doubt the numbers would be any greater than either United or Dundee attract at the moment. Also, most Dundonians aged, say, 16+ would be lost to the game. 

 

Belgian football has a long history of mergers but few have been successful or made any significant improvement to football in the respective towns/cities. Indeed, quite a few of these new, merged clubs have gone under pretty quickly leaving a professional status vacuum with just an amateur shadow of the original club(s) playing 5th/6th tier football. 

 

With no geographical split to be considered the city of Dundee is perfect for a shared stadium but that's as far as it should go, imo. 

 

 

Edited by martoon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Craig Gordons Gloves

I lived in Dundee for 3 years while at uni and although this was in the early 90s i've never spoken to anyone who favors a merger.  I used to work at both grounds as a steward occasionally (for beer money) and the decline in their crowds in the past 20 years have been quite something to see.  I wonder what the % drop off in crowds has been and if it's been replicated elsewhere or if Dundee has suffered more than most because of the decline in football and the like. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kila
31 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Neither club needs a stadium that size. 

 

If you were to build a new ground, I think it'd be daft to go under 20k and totally limit it for the future.

 

Dundee as a city will continue to grow, I'm sure they can grow their fan bases by having a shiny new ground they share with better facilities etc.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jlv2004
11 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

The Dundee supporters group still own enough shares to block amny ground sharing or merger moves I believe  

Yes but the point of the article is the owners have offered to buy them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
davemclaren
1 minute ago, Jlv2004 said:

Yes but the point of the article is the owners have offered to buy them.

I know but Hagar was saying thst fans have little say. In general that is correct but Dundee fans actually have a big say in this one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jlv2004
7 minutes ago, Craig Gordons Gloves said:

I lived in Dundee for 3 years while at uni and although this was in the early 90s i've never spoken to anyone who favors a merger.  I used to work at both grounds as a steward occasionally (for beer money) and the decline in their crowds in the past 20 years have been quite something to see.  I wonder what the % drop off in crowds has been and if it's been replicated elsewhere or if Dundee has suffered more than most because of the decline in football and the like. 

I think most clubs have seen a drop.

The biggest problem in Scottish football in the last few decades is the decline of the middle sized clubs like Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Dunfermline etc.

Us, Hibs and Aberdeen have seen an increase in crowds.

The rest seem to have slumped. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jlv2004
Just now, davemclaren said:

I know but Hagar was saying thst fans have little say. In general that is correct but Dundee fans actually have a big say in this one. 

Fair point. 

I trust they won't sell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hearts_fan
2 hours ago, davemclaren said:

I’m not against clubs merging but not convinced on this one. If they were to merge you could, in theory, create a club at the the sameish level as Hearts/Hibs/Aberdeen. Does that really benefit Scottish football?

 

I think it would. We need as many strong teams as possible, and I reckon a big six of Aberdeen, Dundee 'City', Hibs, Hearts, Celtic and the rangers would be quite appealing from a branding perspective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Toggie88
9 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

When will people realise that what fans want and what they get can be 2 things poles apart, if the owners of both clubs decide and build a new stadium so as its a new home for both then it happens?  Fan power is a big thing but it takes a lot for it to win, 

 

When hibs were in trouble with the pubs they bought, Mercer came in and nearly wiped them out, but in truth he saved them as they had some money men rally around and save them (STF).Celtic 1 hour from extinction until wee Fergus came in,   Both got lucky, we had Mercer, then Romanov, now Ann, luck not required, we saved our club?   Sevco  one shark bigger than the next but they are still here,  Dundee twice,  and Utd only by the grace of a couple of people keep them going.  Hibs, Celtic, Livi, Motherwell and Sevco got lucky.  Gretna not so.  Apart from us  Fans played no part.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is Dundee fans and Utd fans, no matter how passionate they are, there is just not enough and if a Dundee City came along, and its a choice between shopping (in Dundee with your wife/sister - same thing) or going to a game in a new stadium and buying a tangerine and blue scarf, then its the later, or they can come and see the Jambos!!!!!!!

 

 

 

I don't disagree with you. A joint-stadium followed by a merger some years later would be one way of it happening, however we're a little way off that even being a reality. 

 

Is it luck however, or is it the size of the club? All the clubs you mentioned there are actually of a 'decent' size  by Scottish standards. The only one that wasn't is Gretna, who ultimately met their demise. Clydebank and Airdrie both also went belly-up, and all are smaller than the clubs that managed to pull through. The biggest of those 3, Airdrie, are also the only one that arguably carried on in a Sevco type fashion. All of that would suggest that the relative size of fan base does have an effect - that might be as simple as more fans equals more likelihood of a supporter with means to save the club when they need to. 

 

There are benefits to having only one team in the city. Businesses and local politicians will automatically gravitate towards providing sponsorship/support and will see the club doing well as positive for the city. When you have two clubs, businesses and politicians are very aware of alienating the opposing fan base - see the amount of FOI to Edinburgh Council from Hibs.net users as case and point. I remember being in Aberdeen City Centre a few years back and quite a few local pubs had Aberdeen flags - I remember thinking it was a shame we didn't have any pubs in Edinburgh city centre with Hearts flags constantly on display, but why would you bother alienating a bunch of Hibs fans. I also wouldn't visit a 'Hibs pub' in the city centre either...

 

The success of a Dundee City would be completely dependent on the supporter reaction. If the fans of both clubs embraced it, they would arguably have a shot at becoming the 'third force' in Scottish football but would likely still fall behind us and Aberdeen. If the fans were dead opposed, decided to start their own clubs and start at the bottom (EoS league maybe) then it could be difficult for a Dundee City to surpass what DUFC regularly achieve (excluding the last few years). In 30 years time, Dundee City would probably be a decent side in a Scottish context but there would be many who would refuse to support the club as they are 'Dundee/DUFC fans'. St Johnstone would maybe benefit in a similar fashion to Ross County after Inverness Caledonian and Thistle merged. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jlv2004
2 minutes ago, Hearts_fan said:

 

I think it would. We need as many strong teams as possible, and I reckon a big six of Aberdeen, Dundee 'City', Hibs, Hearts, Celtic and the rangers would be quite appealing from a branding perspective.

But would they be a strong team?

As someone else has posted ICT get smaller crowds than Ross County because many in Inverness won't support them.

I wouldn't support an amalgamated Edinburgh team. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kila
2 minutes ago, Jlv2004 said:

But would they be a strong team?

As someone else has posted ICT get smaller crowds than Ross County because many in Inverness won't support them.

I wouldn't support an amalgamated Edinburgh team. 

 

37,149 at Hampden for their 2-1 win over Falkirk in the Scottish Cup final 2015.

 

Not sure how many were from Inverness but big numbers turned out for a big game.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BRAVEHEART1874
23 minutes ago, Craig Gordons Gloves said:

I lived in Dundee for 3 years while at uni and although this was in the early 90s i've never spoken to anyone who favors a merger.  I used to work at both grounds as a steward occasionally (for beer money) and the decline in their crowds in the past 20 years have been quite something to see.  I wonder what the % drop off in crowds has been and if it's been replicated elsewhere or if Dundee has suffered more than most because of the decline in football and the like. 

Aye the population has fallen by 40,000 since 1970 - jute mill closures etc. can't have helped the football 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ri Alban
2 hours ago, Hearts Daft said:

The entire project reeks of rich Americans coming in who have got no understanding of the culture in Scotland and how for many their club is part of their identity. It's interesting that Inverness with a bigger population than Dingwall get smaller crowds than Ross County. Many of the Inverness Thistle and Inverness Caledonian supporters probably walked away after the creation of ICT.

The The fans didn't accept the Caledonian take over. They watch clach or no one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SpruceBringsteen

Break up two clubs to make one that barely anyone will support on the off-chance that they might get a title shot once in a while - upon which Scottish referees would shag them into oblivion anyway. Great idea. :laugh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jlv2004
4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

The The fans didn't accept the Caledonian take over. They watch clach or no one.

And the old Caley fans don't regard it as a takeover. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BRAVEHEART1874
1 hour ago, tian447 said:

 

Absolutely, everywhere you go in the town, you see people wearing Dundee or United jackets, shirts, hats, and most people Dundee support one of the local teams.  There actually doesn't seem to be as many Old Firm supporting tinks here as there are in other places in Scotland, which is good to see when compared to those supporting the City teams.

 

They would never ever accept a merger, and doing so would be complete suicide.  Supporters would rather pack it in altogether than go and support a merged club.

 

Plus orange shirts and navy shorts would be a shite combo.

Aye a lot less glory hunters in dundee, apart from  lochee / charleston plenty timaloys there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jlv2004
8 minutes ago, kila said:

 

37,149 at Hampden for their 2-1 win over Falkirk in the Scottish Cup final 2015.

 

Not sure how many were from Inverness but big numbers turned out for a big game.

 

Aye the families and daytrippers who have no interest week to week.

Cup final crowds are no real indication of a club's potential support. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ri Alban
6 minutes ago, Jlv2004 said:

And the old Caley fans don't regard it as a takeover. 

The Thistle fans do.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...