Leigh Griffiths

[Saint Jambo]

17 minutes ago, WageThief said:

 

Nobody was claiming the song wasn't offensive, nor making excuses for the song.

 

The poster I responded to was claiming the song was by definition not racist. I was explaining they were wrong. Why do people continue to claim it isn't racist (even after it is clearly explained to them why it is racist) if not to excuse it?

 

Some irony in claiming that no one us making excuses for it before going on to excuse it because people have sung songs that are worse. Not sure why you think a sectarian song is far worse than racism. Sounds to me like another weird attempt to excuse the singing of a racist song.

[WageThief]

3 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

Some irony in claiming that no one us making excuses for it before going on to excuse it because people have sung songs that are worse. Not sure why you think a sectarian song is far worse than racism. Sounds to me like another weird attempt to excuse the singing of a racist song.

 

Fair enough on the first point.  Weird 2nd point given that I explicitly explained that I wasn't excusing Griffiths but applying the same logic to us.

 

It is ironic that you who is so perplexed by racism thinks that pointing it out close to home is "excusing Leigh Griffiths".

 

FFS -The sectarian song about "fenians" and the Billy Boy gang is worse because the Irish Catholic minority were persecuted to **** in this country on so many levels for so many years.  The Billy Boys ran around murdering catholics and trade unionists.  Actually murdering that is.

 

Rudi Skacel came here via EU freedom of movement to play for us.  Czechoslovakia was dissolved peacefully into two separate states prior to that and did not have any "refugees". 

 

Or put more simply (if it helps) it is worse and more hurtful to sing a song supporting a vile murderous sectarian gang than it is to sing a song incorrectly calling me a refugee.

 

Put even more simply, it is worse (and more hurtful) to call an actual refugee "a ****ing refugee" than it is to do the same to me.  I would just go "eh...what?"

 

Now you go and look up the legal definition and find out what you think about it.

[Bazzas right boot]

58 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

Oh dear god. How is it possible to get so much wrong in a couple of posts and still be so sure you are right?

 

The definition I provided of race is based on the definition of race in the Equality Act 2010. It is not a wider catch all or umbrella definition.

 

I covered the point about whether refugee is a term of abuse. The context is important. In the song it is clearly a term of abuse. In the same way calling a black player a monkey would be a term of abuse, but calling the animal in a zoo a monkey wouldn't be a term of abuse. Context is important.

 

You can commit a criminal act without being charged and convicted of a criminal act. People speed every day. The fact they drove at 75mph on a motorway and weren't pulled over and charged doesn't mean that driving at 75mph is suddenly legal.

 

For someone who doesn't care, you've spent a lot of time trying to claim a racist song isn't racist. Why not spend much shorter amount of time admitting you were wrong?

 

 

 

 

You used law to over ride the dictionary definitions but in doing so you surely need  use law to call him a racist if that is your logic. 

 

To not do that is a contradiction. 

 

You're just moving the goal posts to suit whatever point you are trying to make. 

 

My original point was that his song, even in context was not racist it was xenophobic. 

I did Say it was splitting hairs tho. 

 

You said by law he's a racist, but to my knowledge he's not been convicted of racism. 

How does that work? 

 

 

[WageThief]

2 hours ago, Saint Jambo said:

See for example https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/racist-and-religious-hate-crime/

 

The song is racist by definition. Doesn't matter if you think that should or shouldn't be the definition of racism. That is the legal definition. 

 

Do you think using the holy Scots Law when you go abroad too?

 

Also do you apply the law retrospectively (thus incorrectly) when judging the past, or do you use the legal definitions from the relevant epoch? 

 

Finally if Leigh Griffiths was the legal definition of 'perfect' would you then go around parroting that?  Or would it matter what you thought?

[Morgan]

1 hour ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

Oh dear god. How is it possible to get so much wrong in a couple of posts and still be so sure you are right?

 

The definition I provided of race is based on the definition of race in the Equality Act 2010. It is not a wider catch all or umbrella definition.

 

I covered the point about whether refugee is a term of abuse. The context is important. In the song it is clearly a term of abuse. In the same way calling a black player a monkey would be a term of abuse, but calling the animal in a zoo a monkey wouldn't be a term of abuse. Context is important.

 

You can commit a criminal act without being charged and convicted of a criminal act. People speed every day. The fact they drove at 75mph on a motorway and weren't pulled over and charged doesn't mean that driving at 75mph is suddenly legal.

 

For someone who doesn't care, you've spent a lot of time trying to claim a racist song isn't racist. Why not spend much shorter amount of time admitting you were wrong?

Having not got involved in this thread at all, I now must.

 

Your post is excellent.

[Saint Jambo]

16 minutes ago, WageThief said:

 

Do you think using the holy Scots Law when you go abroad too?

 

Also do you apply the law retrospectively (thus incorrectly) when judging the past, or do you use the legal definitions from the relevant epoch? 

 

Finally if Leigh Griffiths was the legal definition of 'perfect' would you then go around parroting that?  Or would it matter what you thought?

 

What? Struggling to understand what you are on about. I'm in the UK, this a UK message board, Griffiths is British, the song was sung in Britain. Are you suggesting it isn't appropriate to apply a UK definition? Weird. I'm applying an Act that became law in 2010 to events in 2015. What is incorrect about that? As for the final ramblings about legal definition of perfect, I've no idea what you are on about.

 

As for your previous post, as with understanding hello hello is offensive due to the context of Irish history, to understand why the refugee song is so offensive you need to consider it in the context of post-WW2 Eastern European history.

[Saint Jambo]

46 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

You used law to over ride the dictionary definitions but in doing so you surely need  use law to call him a racist if that is your logic. 

 

To not do that is a contradiction. 

 

You're just moving the goal posts to suit whatever point you are trying to make. 

 

My original point was that his song, even in context was not racist it was xenophobic. 

I did Say it was splitting hairs tho. 

 

You said by law he's a racist, but to my knowledge he's not been convicted of racism. 

How does that work? 

 

Not sure how you think I've moved the goal posts? I've consistently said the song is racist. Your point that the song isn't racist but xenophobic isn't splitting hairs, its factually wrong.

 

All my comments have been about the song being racist. I didn't at any stage pass any comment about whether Griffiths is racist or not. It is you moving the goal posts not me. You said the song isn't racist by definition. I've just consistently pointed out you are wrong.

[Bazzas right boot]

3 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

Not sure how you think I've moved the goal posts? I've consistently said the song is racist. Your point that the song isn't racist but xenophobic isn't splitting hairs, its factually wrong.

 

All my comments have been about the song being racist. I didn't at any stage pass any comment about whether Griffiths is racist or not. It is you moving the goal posts not me. You said the song isn't racist by definition. I've just consistently pointed out you are wrong.

 

 

The song is xenophobic by definition if anything. 

 

You tried to use law to justify your stance but he wasn't convicted under the law for discrimination or racism. 

 

Look up xenophobia and then racism. 

Then decide which one it is. 

 

If using law to prove a point, then he'd have had to be convicted of racism, in this case by singing a racist song that was taped and made public. He wasn't, so unsure how you can default to discrimination law, and in fact what/ where was the discrimination? 

 

Whether xenophobia is a type of racism, I don't know and is for another debate. 

However racism and xenophobia have pretty clear definitions and are slightly different in nature. 

Both being distasteful ofc. 

 

Also, this thread is about Griffiths and subsequently being racist and the post you originally tried to correct me on was a direct response to someone else calling him a racist. 

My point was that how could he come to that conclusion when the actual song was xenophobic in nature and it's a jump to racism. 

 

Still a fud for slagging rudi, but the song was xenophobic and to my knowledge Griffiths isn't a racist as defined by the law which you seem to be defaulting to for clarification, where as I used the dictionary. 

[shed1874]

The song was sung by Hibs casuals with their hero rat boy fronting it. A young Griff along with his mates became part of that crew still are. 

 

Arguing points of law to lay a title on the ******s is excruciating viewing. 

 

Its xenophobia 

[Jamhammer]

4 hours ago, WageThief said:

 

What a load of crap.  If I stood in among 10,000 people singing "Oh Edinburgh is wonderful" but changed the words to "except for Hibs, wanks, and Tories" I'd be a good guy not contributing to a problem? 

 

"Yes officer it might look like I was throwing coins at Lennon but I was just feigning throwing coins to set an example to the idiots"

I’m not sure I understand this post at all. Are you saying people don’t sing Hibee blood or stop or that that’s just as bad?

[Kiwidoug]

Not read all this but if we had Shankland and Griffiths on our books we'd have a lot more firepower than we do now.

[Forever Hearts]

46 minutes ago, Kiwidoug said:

Not read all this but if we had Shankland and Griffiths on our books we'd have a lot more firepower than we do now.

If we had Vera Lynn and Prince Philip on our books we'd have more firepower than we do now. 

[WageThief]

8 hours ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

What? Struggling to understand what you are on about. I'm in the UK, this a UK message board, Griffiths is British, the song was sung in Britain. Are you suggesting it isn't appropriate to apply a UK definition? Weird. I'm applying an Act that became law in 2010 to events in 2015. What is incorrect about that? As for the final ramblings about legal definition of perfect, I've no idea what you are on about.

 

As for your previous post, as with understanding hello hello is offensive due to the context of Irish history, to understand why the refugee song is so offensive you need to consider it in the context of post-WW2 Eastern European history.

 

I was more bemused that you presumably think homosexuality was wrong at it was literally illegal in Scotland until 1982.  I presume you are aware the law is sometimes an ass?

 

"Context of Irish history" What?  It is Scottish history ffs.  The billy boys murdered people in Glasgow.  Is it Irish history to you because they were catholics? It doesn't matter whether you want to ignore it and focus on a hibs bawbag.

 

I think most would say it is worse to be goaded by your oppressor than to be goaded by another.

 

I'm not sure what your "context" in post WW2 Czechoslovakia is but I find it remarkable you think that incorrectly calling Rudi Skacel a refugee (he isn't) is as offensive as shouting about killing catholics (who were).

[WageThief]

5 hours ago, Jamhammer said:

I’m not sure I understand this post at all. Are you saying people don’t sing Hibee blood or stop or that that’s just as bad?

 

I'm saying it is a bit much to be offended at the words in a song while standing around with all the horrible people singing that song, while consoling yourself that you changed the words.

 

You should not sing at all, and better still tell people to shut up.   You know, like how to actually defeat racism.

 

Would you walk through a synagogue whistling Wagner and expect praise for not singing the anti-Semitic words?

 

Hope that is clear enough.

[Jamhammer]

54 minutes ago, WageThief said:

 

I'm saying it is a bit much to be offended at the words in a song while standing around with all the horrible people singing that song, while consoling yourself that you changed the words.

 

You should not sing at all, and better still tell people to shut up.   You know, like how to actually defeat racism.

 

Would you walk through a synagogue whistling Wagner and expect praise for not singing the anti-Semitic words?

 

Hope that is clear enough.

Much clearer. I agree totally. My point was the original poster said the majority of the crowd were singing the Billy Boys song at the cup final. I don't believe that is the case and was trying to explain, probably poorly that some supporters, not me I have to add sing diluted versions. I'm not saying it's right but it happens. I don't change the words because I don't sing any version of the song. 

Some people, and I'm not including you in this seem to be under the impression that I sit on my hands at the football patting myself on the back for not singing racist/sectarian songs.  I don't. I just don't sing sectarian or racist songs and have challenged people who do on numerous occasions.

Thanks for clarifying your post, I hope I've clarified mine

 

Anyway. Leigh Grifffiths - Racist, wouldn't want him at Hearts goals or not.

[Forever Hearts]

34 minutes ago, Jamhammer said:

Much clearer. I agree totally. My point was the original poster said the majority of the crowd were singing the Billy Boys song at the cup final. I don't believe that is the case and was trying to explain, probably poorly that some supporters, not me I have to add sing diluted versions. I'm not saying it's right but it happens. I don't change the words because I don't sing any version of the song. 

Some people, and I'm not including you in this seem to be under the impression that I sit on my hands at the football patting myself on the back for not singing racist/sectarian songs.  I don't. I just don't sing sectarian or racist songs and have challenged people who do on numerous occasions.

Thanks for clarifying your post, I hope I've clarified mine

 

Anyway. Leigh Grifffiths - Racist, wouldn't want him at Hearts goals or not.

It most certainly was the case. And it's on YouTube if you need it clarified. 

[WageThief]

4 minutes ago, Jamhammer said:

Much clearer. I agree totally. My point was the original poster said the majority of the crowd were singing the Billy Boys song at the cup final. I don't believe that is the case and was trying to explain, probably poorly that some supporters, not me I have to add sing diluted versions.

 

Thank you for the conciliatory response.  I agree with all except I'd say a majority were singing the traditional version warts n all.

 

I suppose for those of us who have sung such shit, we are maybe ashamed and pretending to ourselves it is/was more widely sung than it is/was.  There is definitely a massive difference from 10 years ago which is lovely. 

 

If you go back before the my time (90s) it is difficult to know if you deserve praise for not singing and flinging, or criticism for actually being able to stomach it.  But I don't really know how bad it was tbh.

 

I'd sign Griffiths if he had shown remorse for his actions, and he wasn't inveigled with gangsters and stuff. 

 

Out of interest, would you have the same view on McCoist?  I know he is a fat pundit, but imagine we could sign the 28 year old McCoist?

 

I think with our history, signing the sectarian hun looks worse than forgiving the racist/xenophobic hobo.

 

There is probably a greater chance of us signing the 28 year old McCoist!!

[jack D and coke]

I’m not sure why we still have fans that deny this tbh. 
Hearts have a lot of bigots in our support (I used to be one of them) and always have had as along as I’ve supported them which is over 30 odd years now. We don’t get called the wee huns and all the rest for nothing. When I worked in Ireland I stopped telling people I supported Hearts cos I got stick a couple of times for it. Yous are just the Rangers of Edinburgh you lot. 
It was rife and loud at Easter road just a fortnight ago too. I hear it all the time lol are people going around with their ears shut?
Not getting into the rights and wrongs of it btw just saying it’s still here and in good numbers. 
Im not sure how we rid ourselves of it as a club. We have a good few Irish now too it really does need to stop, fans need to think about what they’re singing. 

[cb1874]

Kickback at it’s absolute best...complete ****king roasters.

[Forever Hearts]

12 minutes ago, WageThief said:

 

Thank you for the conciliatory response.  I agree with all except I'd say a majority were singing the traditional version warts n all.

 

I suppose for those of us who have sung such shit, we are maybe ashamed and pretending to ourselves it is/was more widely sung than it is/was.  There is definitely a massive difference from 10 years ago which is lovely. 

 

If you go back before the my time (90s) it is difficult to know if you deserve praise for not singing and flinging, or criticism for actually being able to stomach it.  But I don't really know how bad it was tbh.

 

I'd sign Griffiths if he had shown remorse for his actions, and he wasn't inveigled with gangsters and stuff. 

 

Out of interest, would you have the same view on McCoist?  I know he is a fat pundit, but imagine we could sign the 28 year old McCoist?

 

I think with our history, signing the sectarian hun looks worse than forgiving the racist/xenophobic hobo.

 

There is probably a greater chance of us signing the 28 year old McCoist!!

McCoist is a "sectarian hun"?

[WageThief]

9 minutes ago, Forever Hearts said:

McCoist is a "sectarian hun"?

 

In the context of him singing sectarian songs in the past, rather than in my opinion.  I'd sign him in a second.

 

I should've used 'bluenose' rather than 'hun' admittedly.

[Tasavallan]

13 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

The song is xenophobic by definition if anything. 

 

 

My 2p worth is that it would be considered racist if he referred to Rudi as "a black refugee" or "an African refugee" or even "a Czech refugee" but not if just "a ****ing refugee". 

 

If I recall, the Hearts supporter who was arrested for calling John Hartson a "Fat Welsh b*stard" was arrested due to referring to Hartson's race.  Would have been fine if he'd called Hartson a "Fat b*stard" as that was not racist - it was fact.  

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, Tasavallan said:

 

My 2p worth is that it would be considered racist if he referred to Rudi as "a black refugee" or "an African refugee" or even "a Czech refugee" but not if just "a ****ing refugee". 

 

If I recall, the Hearts supporter who was arrested for calling John Hartson a "Fat Welsh b*stard" was arrested due to referring to Hartson's race.  Would have been fine if he'd called Hartson a "Fat b*stard" as that was not racist - it was fact.  

Did someone not get barred from Tynecastle for calling Mixu that, also technically a fact?

[Pasquale for King]

Poor Leigh can’t get a game for Celtic and nowhere near the Scotland squad, if Hibs hadn’t pissed off their parent club they might’ve got him on loan. **** the three of them.

[Bazzas right boot]

34 minutes ago, Tasavallan said:

 

My 2p worth is that it would be considered racist if he referred to Rudi as "a black refugee" or "an African refugee" or even "a Czech refugee" but not if just "a ****ing refugee". 

 

If I recall, the Hearts supporter who was arrested for calling John Hartson a "Fat Welsh b*stard" was arrested due to referring to Hartson's race.  Would have been fine if he'd called Hartson a "Fat b*stard" as that was not racist - it was fact.  

 

 

He is a Welsh ******* as well tho? 

That's a fact.... 

🙄

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

3 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

I’m not sure why we still have fans that deny this tbh. 
Hearts have a lot of bigots in our support (I used to be one of them) and always have had as along as I’ve supported them which is over 30 odd years now. We don’t get called the wee huns and all the rest for nothing. When I worked in Ireland I stopped telling people I supported Hearts cos I got stick a couple of times for it. Yous are just the Rangers of Edinburgh you lot. 
It was rife and loud at Easter road just a fortnight ago too. I hear it all the time lol are people going around with their ears shut?
Not getting into the rights and wrongs of it btw just saying it’s still here and in good numbers. 
Im not sure how we rid ourselves of it as a club. We have a good few Irish now too it really does need to stop, fans need to think about what they’re singing. 

 

Good Post. 

 

Said it further up, but I remember singing Edinburgh is wonderful, various versions in train stations and such. 

Not proud. 

That song pretty much covered everything - 

Sexism, racism, xenophobia and sectarianism. 

Not quite a full house, but 4 of a kind... 

 

Just missing homaphobia, but we had a song later on that covered that very well. 

 

The only constant in all that which wasn't poor taste was the mention of hibs 😂

They got it tight in every version. 

[jack D and coke]

22 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Good Post. 

 

Said it further up, but I remember singing Edinburgh is wonderful, various versions in train stations and such. 

Not proud. 

That song pretty much covered everything - 

Sexism, racism, xenophobia and sectarianism. 

Not quite a full house, but 4 of a kind... 

 

Just missing homaphobia, but we had a song later on that covered that very well. 

 

The only constant in all that which wasn't poor taste was the mention of hibs 😂

They got it tight in every version. 

I sang that song plenty after a few beers too

Not proud of it but it was all part of being a hearts fan I thought. I thought being a staunch proddy was part of it all and I got into with gusto mate. 
I have to check myself these days I’ll admit that. 

[We_are_the_Hearts]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

I sang that song plenty after a few beers too

Not proud of it but it was all part of being a hearts fan I thought. I thought being a staunch proddy was part of it all and I got into with gusto mate. 
I have to check myself these days I’ll admit that. 

Nowadays there is every chance you would have a lifetime ban and yer face all over Social Media! No such leeway for kids these days

[WageThief]

40 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

Said it further up, but I remember singing Edinburgh is wonderful, various versions in train stations and such. 

Not proud. 

That song pretty much covered everything - 

Sexism, racism, xenophobia and sectarianism. 

Not quite a full house, but 4 of a kind... 

 

Fortunately I only heard one version which I was never tempted to sing. 

 

Was the sexist version simply "except for women, something, something"?

[Bazzas right boot]

55 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I sang that song plenty after a few beers too

Not proud of it but it was all part of being a hearts fan I thought. I thought being a staunch proddy was part of it all and I got into with gusto mate. 
I have to check myself these days I’ll admit that. 

 

 

I lost the Proddy part a while ago, went to uni, met folk from all walks of life if nothing else. But being in the pub at the final before the game last season it was hard to rein the tunes, first time I struggled for a few years. 

 

I manage tho. Honestly. 

 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

25 minutes ago, WageThief said:

 

Fortunately I only heard one version which I was never tempted to sing. 

 

Was the sexist version simply "except for women, something, something"?

 

Pretty sure "tarts" was a version. 

 

Not often sung. 

I think it came about as we were walking through Glasgow and thought we had to include the women in the slagging as there was groups of them walking about. 

 

All inclusiveness at the heart of our wee group at that time. 

 

 

It was a funny, light hearted change from the usual version. That was the thinking. Pats on the back all round.. 

 

Ooh the banter 

[Bazzas right boot]

59 minutes ago, We_are_the_Hearts said:

Nowadays there is every chance you would have a lifetime ban and yer face all over Social Media! No such leeway for kids these days

 

 

It's harsh, but education, culture and laws move on. 

 

I never really shouted racism, my generation had learned or was learning from incidents like Walters. 

 

That's now progressed into homophobic, xenophobic and bigotry as well now. 

Clubs are treating it similar as is the law. 

 

All for the greater good imo. 

 

Pretty sure there are clubs were that behaviour is still welcome tho. 

Secret handshake, wink. 

 

 

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

22 hours ago, Saughton Jambo said:

The word fenian isn’t derogatory if it’s said from an Irish catholic to another. It actually means warrior. I was in a bar Tipperary a few years ago and was asked by a local if I was a ‘good fenian’ and one of them. Go further south to Limerick and if you’re not a fenian you’d better watch out. Staunch republican area and statues glorifying the IRA. I guess when it’s said from a Presbyterian to a catholic then it takes on a whole new connotation. It’s a fecked up wee country still living in the bygone days of 300 years ago. A good way to find out their level of ignorance is to ask them why they celebrate the Battle of the Boyne on the 12th July. Without google then it usually has a few of the historians stumped. 

 

You could be describing Scotland there....