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1 hour ago, Geoff the Mince said:

Dispicable actions in Yugoslavia was the  bombing of a TV studio ? 

I agree that's why Blair should be tried as a war criminal.

What do you call Russian involvement in sending milita and weapons to the Serbs ?

I didn't know there was a name for it but if you have any evidence to support this i'd be interested to see it.

You watch too much RT mate .

 

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2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

What you said was 

"The Tories in particular as a party have an issue there. But as a society as a whole we are more and more intolerant."  so you have already stated that Tories are not as inclusive and fair minded as we might hope. Your statement related society as a whole being more and more intolerant likening the rest of society to the Tories and i asked who this applied to. Almost any group in society could have been cited except the Tories because you had already mentioned them. I thought you might be alluding to Nationalists. 

I actually think our society is much more tolerant than it used to be even among Tories, clearly you have a different experience. 

  •  

 

Not at all. I said that the Tories had issues as well - must've been a typo as I usually use my iPad for this and it's not the greatest these days.

 

I think I am right in saying that various hate crimes have increased since 2015. The far right has seen an increase in support. We've seen a growth in policies like "hostile environment" and Javids recent moves on stripping citizenship without much forethought.

 

There's a wider societal intolerance towards others in society. Politically it's more and more tribal and less tolerant. 

 

Not everything is about nationalists mate. But they too are as tribal towards those who disagree with them as the rest are.

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2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 In the context of Chomsky’s comments how do you feel about former Labour MP Joan Ryan in her capacity within Labour Friends of Israel being given a million pounds from the Israeli government?

 

 

Millions?

 

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

Have you seen Joan Ryan branding people antisemitic for asking awkward questions at the LFOI stall at the conference.

Chomsky said he used to be viewed as a Zionist because of his views on Israel but now he is seen as antisemitic even though his views have not changed.

 

No. I've not. What's wrong with being a friend of Israel over Palestine in your eyes?

 

I'm neither. I support statehood for Palestine and the right of Israel to exist. I don't see those as mutually exclusive.

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2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

Why would you expect thousands of Syrians to return home if their leader was such a murdering despot? Don’t you think the main reason most are returning is because the western backed terrorists have been removed.

 

Because they're absolutely shattered by over a decade of war and death? They're returning from camps in neighbouring countries who want them out. I think the Assad Opposition being broken and in collapse does help. It means the war is coming to an end.

 

But international human rights groups have said there have been atrocities during this war. I think both sides should be investigated over them and justice brought.

 

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

It's UK policy that Corbyn opposes.

 

Including the White Helmets? Not heard a peep on that.

 

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

THE Russian news agencies obviously promote a pro Russian line and they are a lot better at it than they used to be. They have some excellent contributors and some of their stuff is particularly interesting because it’s not covered by our media. Some might say that it is the rapidly declining UK print media and increasingly US focused and deskbound BBC that often makes it a plausible source of information. Were it not for RT, Sputnik and other alternative media we would not know of the BBC’s Syria producer’s claim that the gas attack on Douma was staged.

 

Take it you don't engage in using the resources provided by shows like Reporters, BBC R4, Dispatches on C4, World Tonight, iPlayer News and Documentaries, the wealth of options to various hard edged journalism is there to be found.

 

RT is a propaganda outfit. I've seen the BBC hit UK governments hard and itself. Never seen RT attack the Kremlin or Russian media.

 

Surely if it was founded and other sources of journalism felt the grounding of the story was strong, that the sources were corroborative then it would've been widely reported...

 

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

     You might have thought, given the implications of the Douma attack that the BBC might have wanted to clear this up but I haven’t seen anything about it. Bias can be through omission too, there’s virtually nothing about the political trials in Spain, very little about the Gilet Jaune and coverage of huge anti TTIp marches in Europe a year or two ago. They never miss Corbyn though or anybody on the left of the Labour party. Thank goodness for our state funded  institute of statecraft and Integrity initiative and their sterling efforts to counter the red propaganda menace. 

 

But there's been discussion of Catalonia on Newsnight. There's been stories on their website on both that, the yellow vests and European politics. But not all media outlets cover all stories. The Telegraph and Guardian have different front pages from one another. 

 

Domestic news sources focus on stories close to their readership. So Spanish trials might not be top billing. But it's not ignored. 

 

A lot of this is getting very conspiracy theory-ish.

 

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

Which of Miliband’s lines do you think was better, his pro bombing stance or after he changed his mind?

 

Unlike Blair when there was a sceptical public to foreign intervention and no exit plan explained to him in talks with the PM and voted against it. You'd attack him either way here.

 

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

Many seemed to think that his Syria line was disastrous prompting very undiplomatic language from politicians and civil servants as well as jeopardising the UK’s international relationships.

 

So we should've lap dogged Syria? Just done what America and France demanded?

 

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-sources-say-ed-miliband-is-a-copper-bottomed-s-who-changed-his-mind-on-syria-8789496.html

I think Miliband was a bit Gung Ho after his I am a Jew speech in Israel but then had to change his mind when he realised that Labour supporters and the public in general did not support the bombing campaign.

 

 

His "I'm a jew" speech? 

 

What's wrong with agreeing with the public not to go to war!? You bemoan Iraq and western involvement in Syria. You then attack people for not... backing that... 

 

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

Obviously I’m not suggesting that Israel has undue influence over UK foreign policy and certain elements of the Labour party as that might construed in some quarters as anti-semitic. I can only imagine that Corbyn would have done a much worse job than this though but I’m struggling to see how.

 

Well it is. If you equate Jews with Israel. You can be an anti-Zionist and not be an anti-semite. 

 

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

maybe he didn’t mean it and was  waiting for a “thumbs up”

 

He said he'd back action if the OPCW and UN could confirm it happen. So it was conditional on a "thumbs up".

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When I think about it, it is quite spiteful (Tom Watson) to ask for by-elections for the independent group. You don't always vote for a party, and these people could have been voted for despite party allegiance. But then again, if an SNP candidate did it. 

 

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It opens up a very interesting question.

 

Do voters vote for

A] The local candidate and their local policies only?

B] The party of the local candidate and that party's national policies?

C] The leader of that national party?

 

Many people always vote for the same party regardless of the local candidate.

Increasingly these days we also see voters voting on the basis of the party leader.

Then they moan that their local concerns are ignored by the national parties(!)

 

Another problem that Democracy has always faced is that it doesn't matter how well informed you are as a voter.

Someone who takes the time to examine all the local candidate's policies as well as the national parties' manifestos and makes an informed decision based on those has exactly the same voting power as someone who only votes the way a certain newspaper tells them to vote, or who always votes the same way no matter what.

This has led to parties appealing to the lowest common denominator and sloganeering rather than making policy which stands up to scrutiny, especially in the last 20-30 years.

Parties these days seek power for the sake of being in power rather than actually wanting to improve people's lives.

 

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Governor Tarkin
6 minutes ago, Cade said:

It opens up a very interesting question.

 

Do voters vote for

A] The local candidate and their local policies only?

B] The party of the local candidate and that party's national policies?

C] The leader of that national party?

 

Many people always vote for the same party regardless of the local candidate.

Increasingly these days we also see voters voting on the basis of the party leader.

Then they moan that their local concerns are ignored by the national parties(!)

 

Another problem that Democracy has always faced is that it doesn't matter how well informed you are as a voter.

Someone who takes the time to examine all the local candidate's policies as well as the national parties' manifestos and makes an informed decision based on those has exactly the same voting power as someone who only votes the way a certain newspaper tells them to vote, or who always votes the same way no matter what.

This has led to parties appealing to the lowest common denominator and sloganeering rather than making policy which stands up to scrutiny, especially in the last 20-30 years.

Parties these days seek power for the sake of being in power rather than actually wanting to improve people's lives.

 

 

The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

 

I think it was Asimov but could be wrong.

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It must be shite being a Lib Dem eh !

People leaving the two main parties to form an independent group rather than join those dullards.

What a kick in the stones that is.

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5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

When I think about it, it is quite spiteful (Tom Watson) to ask for by-elections for the independent group. You don't always vote for a party, and these people could have been voted for despite party allegiance. But then again, if an SNP candidate did it. 

 

 

It's an argument. 

 

But certainly at the last election both the Tory and Labour manifestos were popular. Tories at 42% and Labour at 40% were among the highest ever votes. Some of the MPs defecting had massive increases in majorities. 

 

Most people vote for parties. 

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16 minutes ago, Boab said:

It must be shite being a Lib Dem eh !

People leaving the two main parties to form an independent group rather than join those dullards.

What a kick in the stones that is.

 

And something for the TIGs to think about. Propping up a Tory government might harm their chances.

 

But an election soon could wipe them out. 

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40 minutes ago, Cade said:

It opens up a very interesting question.

 

Do voters vote for

A] The local candidate and their local policies only?

B] The party of the local candidate and that party's national policies?

C] The leader of that national party?

 

Many people always vote for the same party regardless of the local candidate.

Increasingly these days we also see voters voting on the basis of the party leader.

Then they moan that their local concerns are ignored by the national parties(!)

 

Another problem that Democracy has always faced is that it doesn't matter how well informed you are as a voter.

Someone who takes the time to examine all the local candidate's policies as well as the national parties' manifestos and makes an informed decision based on those has exactly the same voting power as someone who only votes the way a certain newspaper tells them to vote, or who always votes the same way no matter what.

This has led to parties appealing to the lowest common denominator and sloganeering rather than making policy which stands up to scrutiny, especially in the last 20-30 years.

Parties these days seek power for the sake of being in power rather than actually wanting to improve people's lives.

 

 

I think most concerning is they also tend to shape policies to that middle voting ground. 

 

20 years of basically the same policies on tax, benefits, business, investment, education.  

 

I think there is an opportunity to do something different and where SNP (albeit with mostly much  the same middle ground policies) and Corbyn's 2017 election manifesto struck a chord. 

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AlphonseCapone

If this group really are Centre then why aren't they just joining the Lib Dems? Maybe I'm missing something but this all smacks of attention seeking. 

 

I also love the irony that they the want a second referendum because presumably they think leaving will be bad and you are better off invoking change from the inside..... 

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1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

If this group really are Centre then why aren't they just joining the Lib Dems? Maybe I'm missing something but this all smacks of attention seeking. 

 

I also love the irony that they the want a second referendum because presumably they think leaving will be bad and you are better off invoking change from the inside..... 

It IS attention seeking.

 

The Labour ones will only stay out until Corbyn gets the boot, then they'll rejoin.

The Tory ones will only stay out until May takes No Deal off the table, then they'll also go crawling back.

 

They're also not joining the LibDems coz then their funding would have to be made public.

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1 hour ago, Cade said:

It IS attention seeking.

 

The Labour ones will only stay out until Corbyn gets the boot, then they'll rejoin.

The Tory ones will only stay out until May takes No Deal off the table, then they'll also go crawling back.

 

They're also not joining the LibDems coz then their funding would have to be made public.

But if they succeed,  then it's been purposeful attention seeking. 

 

Good luck to them.

 

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maroonlegions
On 21/02/2019 at 16:30, Craig_ said:

 

Great bunch of lads.

 

BOT. :kirk:

 

 

 

Image may contain: 1 person, text
 
 
Nasty memes the right wingers have a right seethe at them.
 
 
Image may contain: one or more people
 
Yip decent chaps eh.
 
Edited by maroonlegions
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Geoff the Mince
11 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

 

BOT. :kirk:

 

 

 

Image may contain: 1 person, text
 
 
Nasty memes the right wingers have a right seethe at them.
 
 
Image may contain: one or more people
 
Yip decent chaps eh.
 

Again you post crap without checking the facts .

 

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Am I right in saying the anti-semitism cases within the Labour Party amounts to 0.1% of the membership of 0.5 million? This can't be right because the problem is endemic. Practically swallowing the Party up. Are these figures accurate?

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Geoff the Mince
1 minute ago, Riccarton3 said:

Am I right in saying the anti-semitism cases within the Labour Party amounts to 0.1% of the membership of 0.5 million? This can't be right because the problem is endemic. Practically swallowing the Party up. Are these figures accurate?

673 anti Semite complaints made by Labour party members in 10 months .

 

That's from the BBC article the poster above quoted .

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6 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

673 anti Semite complaints made by Labour party members in 10 months .

 

That's from the BBC article the poster above quoted .

Wow. I thought after the Independent Group press conference - I was off work on Monday and saw it all - that there was a mass movement of jew hating but all it is is what you'd sort of expect in a movement with such a huge membership.  Labour needs to get the cases looked at, including background checks on the individuals concerned.

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Geoff the Mince
6 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

Wow. I thought after the Independent Group press conference - I was off work on Monday and saw it all - that there was a mass movement of jew hating but all it is is what you'd sort of expect in a movement with such a huge membership.  Labour needs to get the cases looked at, including background checks on the individuals concerned.

673 complains is a lot regardless of the membership .

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3 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

673 complains is a lot regardless of the membership .

But you know what I'm saying. If you have a membership of half a million, many new young members to politics and the nuances of debate, if someone said the complaints amounted to 0.1% of the membership, would you be describing the entire Party as anti semitic as some defectors have?? Honestly??

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Geoff the Mince
1 minute ago, Riccarton3 said:

But you know what I'm saying. If you have a membership of half a million, many new young members to politics and the nuances of debate, if someone said the complaints amounted to 0.1% of the membership, would you be describing the entire Party as anti semitic as some defectors have?? Honestly??

I agree that the you can't call the entire party anti Semitic 

 

But it is getting pulled in a rather ugly direction (Momentum)

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Toxteth O'Grady

Seems crazy to me that the Labour Party has got itself in such a mess over this. I'm sure I'm part of a huge majority of voters in this country that never gives a thought to what is going on in Israel or Palestine. There are more pressing matters going on in the UK that I'm interested in. 

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19 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

I agree that the you can't call the entire party anti Semitic 

 

But it is getting pulled in a rather ugly direction (Momentum)

 I'd say Blair found success in the centre with the same set of tools used by any political party worth its salt. And I'll bet some of it was pretty ugly in order to get the people he wanted in place   I don't think what is happening now is anything new, just unpalatable for Labour members of Parliament (some now Independent) who hanker for the days of Blair and are not willing to work away within the Party to persuade through argument. They'd rather try any other tactic to change things that do the Party or the  vast majority of its membership no favours. This includes exaggerating the anti semitism problem within the Party imho.

 

 

 

Edited by Riccarton3
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18 minutes ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

Seems crazy to me that the Labour Party has got itself in such a mess over this. I'm sure I'm part of a huge majority of voters in this country that never gives a thought to what is going on in Israel or Palestine. There are more pressing matters going on in the UK that I'm interested in. 

And the vast majority of Labour members (99.9%) have managed to avoid putting their foot in it. Peculiar indeed how it's such a mess.

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17 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

And the vast majority of Labour members (99.9%) have managed to avoid putting their foot in it. Peculiar indeed how it's such a mess.

it's almost as if this whole story is a pile of made up rubbish, trying to discredit Corbyn.

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36 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

 I'd say Blair found success in the centre with the same set of tools used by any political party worth its salt. And I'll bet some of it was pretty ugly in order to get the people he wanted in place   I don't think what is happening now is anything new, just unpalatable for Labour members of Parliament (some now Independent) who hanker for the days of Blair and are not willing to work away within the Party to persuade through argument. They'd rather try any other tactic to change things that do the Party or the  vast majority of its membership no favours. This includes exaggerating the anti semitism problem within the Party imho.

 

 

 

They cannot work from the inside . They are being targeted and deselected 

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10 minutes ago, XB52 said:

it's almost as if this whole story is a pile of made up rubbish, trying to discredit Corbyn.

Well, it's not made up or rubbish but it's being used as a stick to beat Labour - out of all proportion to the actual problem-  when other tactics - PLP mass resignations, leadership challenges and smears - have failed.

Edited by Riccarton3
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3 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

They cannot work from the inside . They are being targeted and deselected 

Is this a new political tactic, previously unused?

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Seymour M Hersh
9 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

If this group really are Centre then why aren't they just joining the Lib Dems? Maybe I'm missing something but this all smacks of attention seeking. 

 

I also love the irony that they the want a second referendum because presumably they think leaving will be bad and you are better off invoking change from the inside..... 

 

The illiberals are pretty left wing when you examine their policies. Until Corby pitched up as labour leader it was a fair argument to say the illiberals were further left than labour.

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19 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

Is this a new political tactic, previously unused?

When a faction targets its own MPs and deselectes them en masse- even when they are long-standing successful MP’s ?

I think it without precedent. It’s a putsch.

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27 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

They cannot work from the inside . They are being targeted and deselected 

I just think back to all those PLP resignations when the objective was, again, not an attempt to win support of the membership through argument/persausion,  but simply an attempt to force Corbyn to resign. It seems whatever tactic suits, suits right, left or centre.

Edited by Riccarton3
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The Mighty Thor
14 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

When a faction targets its own MPs and deselectes them en masse- even when they are long-standing successful MP’s ?

I think it without precedent. It’s a putsch.

It's very interesting to watch what was for many 'the party of the people' estrange itself from the people in the relentless pursuit of a political ideology from the 1970s. 

The glove puppetry of what's left of the trade unions is driving the PLP so far away from electability and it's been marshalled by an executive comprised of grievance politicians who can't even form a competent HM opposition. 

Is there a problem with anti-Semitism in Labour? If complaints are not being dealt with and action is not taken, then yes. Yes there is.

However it's well down the list of problems facing Labour.  

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31 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

It's very interesting to watch what was for many 'the party of the people' estrange itself from the people in the relentless pursuit of a political ideology from the 1970s. 

The glove puppetry of what's left of the trade unions is driving the PLP so far away from electability and it's been marshalled by an executive comprised of grievance politicians who can't even form a competent HM opposition. 

Is there a problem with anti-Semitism in Labour? If complaints are not being dealt with and action is not taken, then yes. Yes there is.

However it's well down the list of problems facing Labour.  

Yet people are resigning citing it as their main reason.

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17 hours ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

Seems crazy to me that the Labour Party has got itself in such a mess over this. I'm sure I'm part of a huge majority of voters in this country that never gives a thought to what is going on in Israel or Palestine. There are more pressing matters going on in the UK that I'm interested in. 

Which is why the media focus on this! 

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1 hour ago, Riccarton3 said:

Yet people are resigning citing it as their main reason.

 

I won't usually defend Labour but some in the party that wanted Corbyn out are clearly at it.

 

They can't just resign and say they want a Tony Blair clone as leader so they are making dirt up and sticking to it.  It all smacks of sour grapes.

Edited by frankblack
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31 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I won't usually defend Labour but some in the party that wanted Corbyn out are clearly at it.

 

They can't just resign and say they want a Tony Blair clone as leader so they are making dirt up and sticking to it.  It all smacks of sour grapes.

Hate to think of people being disingenuous but it wouldn't exactly be a surprise in the world of politics. What is potentially alarming is politicians using the fantastically sensitive issue of anti-semitism as much as a blunt tool to achieve some aim or other yet also having  an understanding of its  tragic historical consequences.. 

Edited by Riccarton3
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1 hour ago, frankblack said:

Apologies if its already been posted but there is a petition for Westminster to debate forcing by-elections when an MP leaves the party they were elected for:

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/242193

 

And so there should be imo.

 

I also think the hypocrisy shown by these MP's is staggering, they want a second referendum to basically check and see if the public still want brexit or not, but don't want to give the public the opportunity to check if they still want them as their MP or not, hypocrites one and all.

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The Real Maroonblood
4 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

And so there should be imo.

 

I also think the hypocrisy shown by these MP's is staggering, they want a second referendum to basically check and see if the public still want brexit or not, but don't want to give the public the opportunity to check if they still want them as their MP or not, hypocrites one and all.

No wonder lots of folk don’t vote.

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MPs are very close to being removed from parliament by the people , physically. A bunch of liars, the lot of them. (Except the Saviours, of course)

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2 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

And so there should be imo.

 

I also think the hypocrisy shown by these MP's is staggering, they want a second referendum to basically check and see if the public still want brexit or not, but don't want to give the public the opportunity to check if they still want them as their MP or not, hypocrites one and all.

 

True, and these bunch of political squatters are hiding who is bankrolling them as they aren't declaring this to parliament because of a loophole.

 

Its not just Westminster that needs to sort this out - Holyrood should also take action.

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23 hours ago, Geoff the Mince said:

I agree that the you can't call the entire party anti Semitic 

 

But it is getting pulled in a rather ugly direction (Momentum)

As a stickler for accuracy and thorough research you will i'm sure be glad to elucidate on the rather ugly direction the Labour party is being pulled by Momentum. 

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