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Bongo 1874

Youth

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To Be Frank
3 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I actually find it more troubling, the idea that Hearts are continually letting talent slip through their fingers, than failing to find it in the first place...That implies that the scouts are doing great and so are the junior coaches but the senior youth coaches are crap!

 

It happens at every club, not just Hearts. There have been many, many examples.

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Spellczech
3 minutes ago, To Be Frank said:

 

It happens at every club, not just Hearts. There have been many, many examples.

It does seem that coaching at age groups is a very comfy, safe  career for ex-pros.

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Famous 1874
52 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

Jamie left Hearts because Hearts didn't fancy him.

Who made that decision? Think Roger Arnott joined in the summer when Gullan was released. He would probably be the best player in our academy right now, definitely would have made the breakthrough to the first team since the likes of McDonald and Henderson have played a fair bit. Been impressed with him every time they have played our reserves, can't believe we let him go, same with Shaw and Cummings.

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DVB
1 hour ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Reminds me of a discussion I was having with a friend when he asked me to name a prolific striker that has come out of a youth set up of Premiership or premier league club in recent years. We were both finding it really hard. So suggests the issue with youth strikers is wider than just Hearts.

At my sons age group there was a striker who scored 130 goals in a season and everyone was in for him apart from Hearts.

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Footballfirst
26 minutes ago, Famous 1874 said:

Who made that decision? Think Roger Arnott joined in the summer when Gullan was released. He would probably be the best player in our academy right now, definitely would have made the breakthrough to the first team since the likes of McDonald and Henderson have played a fair bit. Been impressed with him every time they have played our reserves, can't believe we let him go, same with Shaw and Cummings.

Roger was at Hearts for at least two or three years before Jamie was released in the summer of 2015, although he only became Academy Manager when the new regime took over in 2014, following administration.

 

Jamie is one of the kids of the 1999 age group, along with Danny Baur and Callumn Morrison. Hearts didn't have the cash to offer many players full time contracts and Jamie left along with half a dozen others that summer.  I thought the best player in that age group was a midfielder called Ryan Stevenson, but he is now struggling to get into the Raith Rovers team.

 

I think Jamie had lost the best part of a season with Osgood Schlatters Disease and hadn't long returned to the team before he was released. I always liked him in the younger age groups He had a great shot on him, hence his nickname of "hammer"

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jamboinglasgow
8 minutes ago, DVB said:

At my sons age group there was a striker who scored 130 goals in a season and everyone was in for him apart from Hearts.

 

I was meaning youth strikers become prolific senior strikers.

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buzzbomb
1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

I actually find it more troubling, the idea that Hearts are continually letting talent slip through their fingers, than failing to find it in the first place...That implies that the scouts are doing great and so are the junior coaches but the senior youth coaches are crap!

It's a judgement call at the end of the day. They had Henderson coming behind and thought he was the better prospect. To a certain extent with youths it's always jam tomorrow. This one's not quite there, but look who's coming along next. I'll get stick, but I always say it's a conveyor belt of failure, which occasionally stops and some one makes it.

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Spellczech
3 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

It's a judgement call at the end of the day. They had Henderson coming behind and thought he was the better prospect. To a certain extent with youths it's always jam tomorrow. This one's not quite there, but look who's coming along next. I'll get stick, but I always say it's a conveyor belt of failure, which occasionally stops and some one makes it.

I expect you are bang on the money with that metaphor.  It just seems disjointed the imbalance between age groups and first team. That it can go from a situation where coaches have no pressure to win, to create young players than can be pitched into a situation which is high pressure on the Head Coach...For all the plaudits the club have received for introducing youngsters, I bet other clubs are sitting there saying "Glad we don't have to chuck youngsters in, in such a sink of swim style as Hearts have had to..."

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buzzbomb
Just now, Spellczech said:

I expect you are bang on the money with that metaphor.  It just seems disjointed the imbalance between age groups and first team. That it can go from a situation where coaches have no pressure to win, to create young players than can be pitched into a situation which is high pressure on the Head Coach...For all the plaudits the club have received for introducing youngsters, I bet other clubs are sitting there saying "Glad we don't have to chuck youngsters in, in such a sink of swim style as Hearts have had to..."

A first team coach really has to love a youth player for that player to make it or there has to be a clear club policy that come what may youths are being played, because outwith a very few exceptions youth players will make lots of mistakes and as you say, that puts pressure on coaches. Callum Paterson has been our most successful of late, but if management had listened to a large number of fans they'd have had him out the team. But, he was clearly liked by the management and so, got and took his opportunity.

 

In my opinion as regards academy football, it's generally technique oriented and based on possession etc. I think part of the problem with that is that it doesn't prepare the kids for the reality of first team football in scotland, which is largely based on winning second balls, headers, tackling. So, you go from passing the ball on the deck to suddenly having to win a header, win a tackle, the ball going down the channel at the first sign of pressure, things you've never had to do. So, technique suddenly isn't as important as aggression and dig. That is one aspect where I think hibs are better at academy level. Their kids seem to be more aggressive and have more dig, which in the long run may be better suited to Scottish football.

 

The sooner kids are out of the academy bubble and playing men's football the better as far as I'm concerned.

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Spellczech
25 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

A first team coach really has to love a youth player for that player to make it or there has to be a clear club policy that come what may youths are being played, because outwith a very few exceptions youth players will make lots of mistakes and as you say, that puts pressure on coaches. Callum Paterson has been our most successful of late, but if management had listened to a large number of fans they'd have had him out the team. But, he was clearly liked by the management and so, got and took his opportunity.

 

In my opinion as regards academy football, it's generally technique oriented and based on possession etc. I think part of the problem with that is that it doesn't prepare the kids for the reality of first team football in scotland, which is largely based on winning second balls, headers, tackling. So, you go from passing the ball on the deck to suddenly having to win a header, win a tackle, the ball going down the channel at the first sign of pressure, things you've never had to do. So, technique suddenly isn't as important as aggression and dig. That is one aspect where I think hibs are better at academy level. Their kids seem to be more aggressive and have more dig, which in the long run may be better suited to Scottish football.

 

The sooner kids are out of the academy bubble and playing men's football the better as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah I think you have a point there - that it is strength of mind more than strength of body that makes young professionals succeed. Paterson being a prime example: Yes he was physically strong, but he also was seriously driven. Compare him to Jamie Walker who let his head be turned whilst under contract...Paterson just quietly saw his contract out and got his move, admittedly disappointing many of us, but retaining the respect of most of us too. It was also interesting how they both carped at officials. Paterson would moan but not let it affect his game detrimentally. I always think defenders should have interaction with opposition and officials as defending is about establishing dominance. Wingers by contrast I like to be in the John Colquhoun style, where they get hammered, but don't mouth off, just get back up and embarrass the defender next time...Walker used to get stroppy then drop out of games. He didn't channel frustration in the same way that Paterson did.

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buzzbomb
1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

Yeah I think you have a point there - that it is strength of mind more than strength of body that makes young professionals succeed. Paterson being a prime example: Yes he was physically strong, but he also was seriously driven. Compare him to Jamie Walker who let his head be turned whilst under contract...Paterson just quietly saw his contract out and got his move, admittedly disappointing many of us, but retaining the respect of most of us too. It was also interesting how they both carped at officials. Paterson would moan but not let it affect his game detrimentally. I always think defenders should have interaction with opposition and officials as defending is about establishing dominance. Wingers by contrast I like to be in the John Colquhoun style, where they get hammered, but don't mouth off, just get back up and embarrass the defender next time...Walker used to get stroppy then drop out of games. He didn't channel frustration in the same way that Paterson did.

👍🏻

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