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Blackford Hearts

Will they never stop trying? 

How is many times has this been suggested? 

 

I know now it’s only paper talk but pretty sure both arse cheeks will stop at nothing to ‘leave’ SPFL whilst leaving a colts team in the league, soon to be full team as soon as nobody is looking! 

 

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/draft-proposal-to-create-fifth-tier-league-three/

 

They use a picture of Hearts to make it look like there’s support from other clubs, however the text suggests otherwise! 

 

 

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Blackford Hearts

If the motive was to improve all sides it might be a great idea.

Do you think the SPFL care about Hearts? I’m liking your optimism. How do you think it will improve us? 

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This is major news

 

With 4 colt teams how is it decided who gets in? 

 

If there are more than 4. Is there scope for change. Say Dunfermiline want to enter in year 2. Would Celtic have to give up their place?

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I think this could be quite good for colt teams and wouldnt mind having hearts colts there.

As the article mentions, the main problems might be for the Highland league.

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Blackford Hearts
7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

This is major news

 

With 4 colt teams how is it decided who gets in? 

 

If there are more than 4. Is there scope for change. Say Dunfermiline want to enter in year 2. Would Celtic have to give up their place?

There would only be 2 colts places on offer. Is it not a given that Sevco and Celtic will be involved? 

 

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...a bit disco

At present the idea is that the new division would be made up of four sides coming up from the Highland League, four from the Lowland League and up to four colt sides to create a league of 12.

 

:lol:

 

Gretna v Wick 4 times a season. Practicality abounds.

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Blackford Hearts
18 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Sorry didn’t clarify. There’s only 2 on offer to other teams. Celtic and Sevco get 2 of the 4 places, leaving the rest to fight over 2 remaining spaces. 

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Big Slim Stylee

We’ve expressed interest in looking at this before. If the timing and structure were right I suspect we’d be on board. Not sure it would be of much benefit to the Highland league though.

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Ridiculous idea. How are highland teams expected to afford travel and accommodation when their playing lowland clubs? We need less clubs and leagues, not more.

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12 minutes ago, Blackford Hearts said:

Sorry didn’t clarify. There’s only 2 on offer to other teams. Celtic and Sevco get 2 of the 4 places, leaving the rest to fight over 2 remaining spaces. 

 

Yes 

 

And my point there has to be a clear, open system for choosing and changing the colt teams. Play offs with the 4th placed? What if only 3 are interested. Etc etc. 

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
47 minutes ago, Blackford Hearts said:

If the motive was to improve all sides it might be a great idea.

Do you think the SPFL care about Hearts? I’m liking your optimism. How do you think it will improve us? 

Instead of putting a whole team out on loan they could play and learn together under one roof. Rather than being scatttered one length of the country to the other 

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Lord Beni of Gorgie
18 minutes ago, Blackford Hearts said:

Sorry didn’t clarify. There’s only 2 on offer to other teams. Celtic and Sevco get 2 of the 4 places, leaving the rest to fight over 2 remaining spaces. 

How do you know that to be fact?

 

Lot of water to flow. Definitely a plus for Hearts and would suggest we would be very vocal on the subject 

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10 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

Instead of putting a whole team out on loan they could play and learn together under one roof. Rather than being scatttered one length of the country to the other 

 

Though Bobby Burns for example is better off playing in the Premiership than against Lowland League teams. 

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There's already a Pyramid Working Group at the SFA and one of the current issues is about integrating Junior clubs at levels below 5th Tier. The suggestion in the OP would blow all of that hard work out of the water and wouldn't get the support of the LL, HL East of Scotland, South of Scotland, Scottish Junior Football. It really doesn't have very much going for it at all.

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We have too many teams as it is. We are a very small country and already have a league where fans can be counted by fingers. 

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Blackford Hearts
31 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Yes 

 

And my point there has to be a clear, open system for choosing and changing the colt teams. Play offs with the 4th placed? What if only 3 are interested. Etc etc. 

Totally agree with you. If Hearts Hibs, Aberdeen and Dundee United want in what’s the process? 

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27 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

How do you know that to be fact?

 

Lot of water to flow. Definitely a plus for Hearts and would suggest we would be very vocal on the subject 

How does he know that the rangers and Celtic will get two of the colts places? Honestly? Because they want them.

 

It's not a good thing for anyone other than the big clubs who get a second team, and that's not good for the Scottish game. You talk about other countries, I know that in Holland colt teams were only added to the eerstedivisie because too many teams had gone bust and they preferred that to restructuring their leagues. 

 

But make no mistake, this is being driven by the rangers and Celtic's desire to leave for an elite league, while still leaving a second team in Scotland. And I say no!

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Blackford Hearts
28 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

How do you know that to be fact?

 

Lot of water to flow. Definitely a plus for Hearts and would suggest we would be very vocal on the subject 

Obviously it’s not a fact but my opinion. However, there are few decisions made at the top level of Scottish Football that are not made for the benefit of Celtic and Sevco 

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39 minutes ago, OTT said:

Ridiculous idea. How are highland teams expected to afford travel and accommodation when their playing lowland clubs? We need less clubs and leagues, not more.

 

This.  We only need 2 professional leagues of 16/18.  Then a regional pyramid system underneath. 

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jamboinglasgow
1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

I would Hearts to be one as well (think realistically it would be between us, Aberdeen and Hibs due to the cost of running a B team.)

 

However I am against a 5th league in the SPFL which would just cause problems. It muddies the system which already has too many leagues and makes it harder smaller teams to progress. It just cant be viewed as anything other than the SPFL trying to get the old firm colts teams into the leagues by any means. Then again, whats stopping them for applying for the lowland league (or league below that and then working their way up, are they just wanting to skip ahead of the queue?)

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It's not true tht we have too many teams. If we're to get better as a nation, we need more people playing more football in more teams. Yes, we need fewer full-time professional teams, but that's a different thing.

 

Any solution based on colt teams should not be based on priority for the Bigot Brothers. It's as if they run the game (yes, I know they do, but it isnae right).

 

Actually, it's been instructive how poorly the U2 teams from the SPFL have done in the Challege Cup, albeit Murrawell got to the QFs this season. But if two colts teams, you-know-who are guaranteed a season of games against hardened semi-pros, it;'s going to help those two teams and nobody else. Which, I expect, is the plan.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, kirkierobroy said:

It's not true tht we have too many teams. If we're to get better as a nation, we need more people playing more football in more teams. Yes, we need fewer full-time professional teams, but that's a different thing.

 

Any solution based on colt teams should not be based on priority for the Bigot Brothers. It's as if they run the game (yes, I know they do, but it isnae right).

 

Actually, it's been instructive how poorly the U2 teams from the SPFL have done in the Challege Cup, albeit Murrawell got to the QFs this season. But if two colts teams, you-know-who are guaranteed a season of games against hardened semi-pros, it;'s going to help those two teams and nobody else. Which, I expect, is the plan.

 

 

 

I think it's more about old firm having the principle of 2 teams in the league

 

I do not think players playing against Cove Rangers and Spartans are any nearer the first teams of Celtic or Rangers.

 

They want to be able to have teams in England (or a European league) and Scotland at the same time. 

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Lord Beni of Gorgie

Celtic didn't get their own way recently. Pretty sure all that want it will need to be included. 

 

I also recall Rangers starting at the bottom despite best efforts. 

 

Times are changing albeit slowly 

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I presume this is naked pandering to the sectarian wing of Scottish football.  When these two clubs finally find another league to play in, I will be absolutely outraged if they are permitted to play in any Scottish tournaments or have any teams competing in any leagues.

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Footballfirst

I would go the other way and drop Tier 4 (League 2) into a regional setup.  If as looks likely, we get the West juniors into the pyramid set up next season, I think that the current lowland league set up needs revised.

 

That would leave

 

Tier 1 : Premiership (12)

Tier 2 : Championship (10)

Tier 3 : League 1 (10)

Tier 4 : Highland League (16), Lowland League East (16 - from Lothians, Borders, Tayside, Fife), Lowland League West (16 - from Lanakshire, Ayrshire, Renfrewshire, Dumbarton, South of Scotland)

Tier 5 : North Juniors (the rest), EOS Premier League (16), WOS Premier League (16)

Tier 6 : n/a, EOS Championship (16), WOS Championship (16)

Tier 7/8: n/a, Other EOS regional leagues (the rest), Other WOS & SOS Leagues (the rest)

 

It would mean (using the current League 2 teams) Peterhead & Elgin to the Highland League; Edinburgh City, Cowdenbeath, Berwick Rangers & Stirling Albion to Lowland League East and; Clyde, Annan, Queens Park & Albion Rovers to the Lowland League West.

 

Current Lowland League sides would also split on a geographical basis, with East Kilbride, BSC Glasgow, Cumbernauld Colts, Edusport, Gretna and Dalbeattie all going to the LLW, with the rest going to LLE.  That would leave more slots available for the top ex-East Junior and current West Junior sides to progress quicker.

 

I'd be happy with Tiers 2 & 3 being combined into a single national league of 20 teams (38 games), but open up promotion and relegation, with three teams relegated and a team from each of the regional leagues promoted.  Depending on the regional locations of the relegated teams, it might mean adjusting the number of teams promoted/relegated in the lower leagues.

 

If you want to enter colts teams then let them start at the bottom but with a ceiling preventing them entering the national leagues.   I'd also limit the movement of players between clubs and their colt teams to a limited no of loans during the season, or "transfers" during the windows.

 

Edited by Footballfirst
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I don't see why the colt teams can't just play in the Lowland League. Will still be the same level as proposed (tier 5) and will be decent standard once the junior teams reach it. 

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MacDonald Jardine
55 minutes ago, Swanyl said:

What's stopping us putting the reserve team in the EoS league?  Hibs had one a few years ago.

Nothing. 

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As long as:

 

1) Colts are not allowed promotion

2) If the parent lean leaves the league Set up, they go too.

 

Then I can just about make my peace with it, although I’d hate to see a situation where 1st - 3rd in the 5th tier were colts and 4th place were crowned champions. 

 

Could they not do this, and then in a couple of seasons take the eight best Championship clubs and add them to the Premiership? 

 

League 1 and 2 to be merged with the two worst Championship teams. Two worst league 2 teams join this new league.

 

Premiership:

 

Celtic

Rangers

Hearts

Hibs

Aberdeen

Kilmarnock

Dundee United

Dundee

Motherwell

St Johnstone

Falkirk

Dunfermline

St Mirren

Greenock Morton

Partick Thistle

Inverness

Ross County

Ayr United

Queen of the South

Raith Rovers

 

Championship:

 

Livingston

Hamilton

Berwick Rangers

Stranraer

Airdrie

Dumbarton

Alloa

Elgin

Annan

Edinburgh City

Queens Park

Clyde

Cowdenbeath

East Fife

East Stirling

Stirling Albion

Stenhousemuir

Albion Rovers

Forfar

Peterhead

 

Then make the next division the one with all the Colts and regional promotion and relegation etc.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Glib and Shameless Crier
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EastSideJambo
17 minutes ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

As long as:

 

1) Colts are not allowed promotion

2) If the parent lean leaves the league Set up, they go too.

 

Then I can just about make my peace with it, although I’d hate to see a situation where 1st - 3rd in the 5th tier were colts and 4th place were crowned champions. 

 

Could they not do this, and then in a couple of seasons take the eight best Championship clubs and add them to the Premiership? 

 

League 1 and 2 to be merged with the two worst Championship teams. Two worst league 2 teams join this new league.

 

Premiership:

 

Celtic

Rangers

Hearts

Hibs

Aberdeen

Kilmarnock

Dundee United

Dundee

Motherwell

St Johnstone

Falkirk

Dunfermline

St Mirren

Greenock Morton

Partick Thistle

Inverness

Ross County

Ayr United

Queen of the South

Raith Rovers

 

Championship:

 

Livingston

Hamilton

Berwick Rangers

Stranraer

Airdrie

Dumbarton

Alloa

Elgin

Annan

Edinburgh City

Queens Park

Clyde

Cowdenbeath

East Fife

East Stirling

Stirling Albion

Stenhousemuir

Albion Rovers

Forfar

Peterhead

 

Then make the next division the one with all the Colts and regional promotion and relegation etc.

 

 

 

 

 

I can see the benefits in an extended league format. Unfortunately it will never happen, largely due to the overwhelming desire in this country for 4 OF fixtures each season 

 

I'm not sure there are any other leagues in Europe with an equivalent population to Scotland with a 20 team top league. Closest are probably Denmark with 14 and Norway and Sweden each with 16 team leagues 

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21 minutes ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

As long as:

 

1) Colts are not allowed promotion

2) If the parent lean leaves the league Set up, they go too.

 

Then I can just about make my peace with it, although I’d hate to see a situation where 1st - 3rd in the 5th tier were colts and 4th place were crowned champions. 

 

Could they not do this, and then in a couple of seasons take the eight best Championship clubs and add them to the Premiership? 

 

League 1 and 2 to be merged with the two worst Championship teams. Two worst league 2 teams join this new league.

 

Premiership:

 

Celtic

Rangers

Hearts

Hibs

Aberdeen

Kilmarnock

Dundee United

Dundee

Motherwell

St Johnstone

Falkirk

Dunfermline

St Mirren

Greenock Morton

Partick Thistle

Inverness

Ross County

Ayr United

Queen of the South

Raith Rovers

 

Championship:

 

Livingston

Hamilton

Berwick Rangers

Stranraer

Airdrie

Dumbarton

Alloa

Elgin

Annan

Edinburgh City

Queens Park

Clyde

Cowdenbeath

East Fife

East Stirling

Stirling Albion

Stenhousemuir

Albion Rovers

Forfar

Peterhead

 

Then make the next division the one with all the Colts and regional promotion and relegation etc.

 

 

 

 

 

I’d love it but the SPFL/Sky wouldn’t want to give up their 4 OF games a season. Far too sensible an approach for the beaks up here to go for 

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The Future's Maroon

Would love the two larger divisions as suggested above, but also for the reason on the four games involving the uglies, it won’t happen.

 

Also, I don’t see how the SFA/SPFL would so happily allow The Rangers and Celtic to leave, it would cost the game far to much in revenues due to their massive fan base?

 

Lets not forget the most important factor in all this (about them leaving), NOBODY wants these two vile institutions and their bigoted fans.

 

 

Edited by The Future's Maroon
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EastSideJambo
10 minutes ago, boag1874 said:

I’d love it but the SPFL/Sky wouldn’t want to give up their 4 OF games a season. Far too sensible an approach for the beaks up here to go for 

Probably runs deeper than that in truth. Would you want to exchange a second game at home with Rangers, Celtic and Hibs for games against Morton, Ayr and QotS 

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13 minutes ago, EastSideJambo said:

Probably runs deeper than that in truth. Would you want to exchange a second game at home with Rangers, Celtic and Hibs for games against Morton, Ayr and QotS 

Yup. Can you imangine super Sunday being morton vs dunfermline followed by raith V Falkirk 

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EastSideJambo
2 minutes ago, Restonbabe said:

Yup. Can you imangine super Sunday being morton vs dunfermline followed by raith V Falkirk 

Certainly likely to see a further dilution in quality. When you look at St Mirren and Dundee this season in addition to the set up at Hamilton, there is an argument for suggesting a return to a 10 top tier with abolition of split 

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4 minutes ago, Restonbabe said:

Yup. Can you imangine super Sunday being morton vs dunfermline followed by raith V Falkirk 

 

Personally I find pish like Super Sunday irrelevant, and I’d sooner pick up three points. With our stadium capacity and recent attendances showing signs potential growth, we could fill the space left by Rangers, Celtic Hibs fans in the Roseburn with Hearts fans.

 

Priority for me is winning games not playing the OF.

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1 hour ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said:

 

Personally I find pish like Super Sunday irrelevant, and I’d sooner pick up three points. With our stadium capacity and recent attendances showing signs potential growth, we could fill the space left by Rangers, Celtic Hibs fans in the Roseburn with Hearts fans.

 

Priority for me is winning games not playing the OF.

Your priority Is wrong then imo. 

The overall improvement of quality in scotland is where the focus should be. 

The championship is the most competitive league in Scottish football and it has been for the past 8 years. 

That has 10 teams. 

The issue is strength in depth and Scottish football doesn't have it. 

There are maxium of 20 teams at a professional standard. 

Out of those 20 you have 5 that have a potential to front a title challenge. 

 

That's why there was talks of an 8/8/8 league set up over a cource of a season. 

Something needs to be done at grassroot level if the standard is to improve because the elite schools can't attract the talent for it to be successful. Without the funding there is no chance it will ever improve. 

 

Its no secret the sfa are skint. They didn't even have enough reserve to buy out Hampden from Queens Park. 

 

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If there were 4 colts teams no way we wouldn’t be one. Not sure how feel about this though.

 

Would rather our better young players learned their trade on loan in the Championship than a Sunday league league

Edited by Jammy T
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The Old Tolbooth

Personally, if SPL colt teams were admitted before teams that are actually knocking on the door to get into the league proper, then it would be a bit of a disgrace. Teams like East Kilbride, Spartans, Kelty Hearts, Brora, Cove etc, these teams play every season to try and win a place in league football and the door is practically shut for them as they have to play a play off to get there, and to parachute colt teams into the league of teams who are already represented in the league set up would be a slap in the face. 

 

That said, they do it in Europe with quite a bit of success, but a proper pyramid system would need to be implemented to make it work, otherwise it's just another closed shop in Scottish football. 

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2 hours ago, EastSideJambo said:

Probably runs deeper than that in truth. Would you want to exchange a second game at home with Rangers, Celtic and Hibs for games against Morton, Ayr and QotS 

100% as there would be more chance of Hearts winning the league in that scenario. As there would be for Hibs/Kilmarnock/Aberdeen. Which is why it won't happen. 

Big games may bring out fans, but winning brings out more. Look at the championship season. We had fans in the roseburn for a Tuesday night game against Alloa. We took 8000 to Livingston. 

 

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14 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I would go the other way and drop Tier 4 (League 2) into a regional setup.  If as looks likely, we get the West juniors into the pyramid set up next season, I think that the current lowland league set up needs revised.

 

That would leave

 

Tier 1 : Premiership (12)

Tier 2 : Championship (10)

Tier 3 : League 1 (10)

Tier 4 : Highland League (16), Lowland League East (16 - from Lothians, Borders, Tayside, Fife), Lowland League West (16 - from Lanakshire, Ayrshire, Renfrewshire, Dumbarton, South of Scotland)

Tier 5 : North Juniors (the rest), EOS Premier League (16), WOS Premier League (16)

Tier 6 : n/a, EOS Championship (16), WOS Championship (16)

Tier 7/8: n/a, Other EOS regional leagues (the rest), Other WOS & SOS Leagues (the rest)

 

It would mean (using the current League 2 teams) Peterhead & Elgin to the Highland League; Edinburgh City, Cowdenbeath, Berwick Rangers & Stirling Albion to Lowland League East and; Clyde, Annan, Queens Park & Albion Rovers to the Lowland League West.

 

Current Lowland League sides would also split on a geographical basis, with East Kilbride, BSC Glasgow, Cumbernauld Colts, Edusport, Gretna and Dalbeattie all going to the LLW, with the rest going to LLE.  That would leave more slots available for the top ex-East Junior and current West Junior sides to progress quicker.

 

I'd be happy with Tiers 2 & 3 being combined into a single national league of 20 teams (38 games), but open up promotion and relegation, with three teams relegated and a team from each of the regional leagues promoted.  Depending on the regional locations of the relegated teams, it might mean adjusting the number of teams promoted/relegated in the lower leagues.

 

If you want to enter colts teams then let them start at the bottom but with a ceiling preventing them entering the national leagues.   I'd also limit the movement of players between clubs and their colt teams to a limited no of loans during the season, or "transfers" during the windows.

 

I could get behind this type of set-up. There are currently too many clubs in the 'top' leagues in Scotland and regionalising the existing 4th tier and below makes a lot of sense. 

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I'm not sure how I sit with allowing Colt teams in.  Would we want them playing in the major cup competitions?

 

Mind you it would be funny if a Hearts Colt team put out the vermin.

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EastSideJambo
5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

I'm not sure how I sit with allowing Colt teams in.  Would we want them playing in the major cup competitions?

 

Mind you it would be funny if a Hearts Colt team put out the vermin.

Not sure such a scenario is possible.  Don't recall it happening in Copa del Rey in Spain. I don't think the "B" teams are permitted to enter 

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alwaysthereinspirit
1 hour ago, Dalstonjambo said:

100% as there would be more chance of Hearts winning the league in that scenario. As there would be for Hibs/Kilmarnock/Aberdeen. Which is why it won't happen. 

Big games may bring out fans, but winning brings out more. Look at the championship season. We had fans in the roseburn for a Tuesday night game against Alloa. We took 8000 to Livingston. 

 

This. After a couple of years Celtic/Newco would be unable to sign top Scottish talent in the droves used too. We'd have to assume the league they moved to is a "better" league. This means they'd require better players and their fans wouldn't allow them the time to have kids break through. Other Scottish teams would soon start picking up and playing the best Scottish talent. The league without them could be very competitive after a few years. No way should their Colt teams be allowed to stay playing in Scotland if the big team isn't.

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It's a good idea and when benefit is greatly, particularly if the 'colt teams' are capable of being promoted to atleast league 1 level.

The option to have our u-19/20's players playing at that level of competition every week while still being trained here and playing our tactics/style of play etc is far better for us than loaning them all over the place and having little control. 

Particuarly if they're also still available to the senior team, in the last few weeks we could have still had Keena for example.

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