How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

[Ministry MK2]

On 19/09/2018 at 10:55, Smithee said:

I do understand that, although really what is deep shit? Years of enforced austerity? A corrupt and inept government that doesn't care? 

 

The SNP's white paper is just their idea of how it might work, it would be up to us as a nation to find the consensus on how it would actually work. At the end of the day, no one can accurately predict what will happen after independence but that's true of the UK on the same time scale too, so I don't see how it's an argument against one arrangement and not  the other.

The uk runs at a deficit, it regularly makes ridiculous projections that are nowhere near the truth and no one bats an eyelid, but if there's a hint that Scotland might not have every detail worked, that one's a terrible arrangement - it seems to me that independence is being held to a massively different standard than the status quo.

 

Not a dig at you by the way frank, I like you as a poster, I just can't make sense of where you're coming from. 

If you want to change things away from the Status Quo the burden of truth will always be on you. Generally speaking, the majority of people are quite risk averse. Like it or not, the Independance movement can’t just say - “it will all be alright on the night”. 

[Space Mackerel]

55 minutes ago, Ministry MK2 said:

If you want to change things away from the Status Quo the burden of truth will always be on you. Generally speaking, the majority of people are quite risk averse. Like it or not, the Independance movement can’t just say - “it will all be alright on the night”. 

 

I think the majority of Scots are fed up with the status quo now. There is a real belief in the country these days and quite rightly so when you see the mess England is in. 

 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Ministry MK2 said:

If you want to change things away from the Status Quo the burden of truth will always be on you. Generally speaking, the majority of people are quite risk averse. Like it or not, the Independance movement can’t just say - “it will all be alright on the night”. 

 

The independence movement isn't a single entity, it's lots of different groups with different ideas of how to do things - I believe in independence, but not the SNP's version and there are many like me. So what answer am I meant to give? How the snp see it? How experts who can't agree think it would pan out?

 

There is no single answer to the questions asked, it would be a matter for democracy to decide, including those who don't want independence! There simply isn't any way to answer the questions that unionists want answered, except to say "this is the mechanism that will decide - a democratic vote"

 

The uk is about to take the riskiest blind step in generations without any proven case and we STILL don't know what that deal will look like - so how can anyone possibly demand that from the independence movement and think it's a show stopper if don't get a specific answer?

 

I'll say again, the case for independence is being held to standards that no one else is held to, and for me, risk averse means I want away from that nasty, incompetent nest of vipers at Westminster. 

[Auld Reekin']

1 hour ago, Ministry MK2 said:

If you want to change things away from the Status Quo the burden of truth will always be on you. Generally speaking, the majority of people are quite risk averse. Like it or not, the Independance movement can’t just say - “it will all be alright on the night”. 

 

There is no 'status-quo' (or Status Quo, as one them's deid and so they've disbanded) any more: brexit has taken care of that (or will). It's now a question of how to make the best of the absolute clusterfeck with which we are now faced... The onus is equally - or even more so - on the brexiteers, or those who are now "resigned" to go with that flow, to demonstrate that their solution will be "alright on the night" as it is they who are directly and immediately responsible for the radical (and, in my view, catastrophic) changes we are about to undergo.

[Space Mackerel]

27 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

The independence movement isn't a single entity, it's lots of different groups with different ideas of how to do things - I believe in independence, but not the SNP's version and there are many like me. So what answer am I meant to give? How the snp see it? How experts who can't agree think it would pan out?

 

There is no single answer to the questions asked, it would be a matter for democracy to decide, including those who don't want independence! There simply isn't any way to answer the questions that unionists want answered, except to say "this is the mechanism that will decide - a democratic vote"

 

The uk is about to take the riskiest blind step in generations without any proven case and we STILL don't know what that deal will look like - so how can anyone possibly demand that from the independence movement and think it's a show stopper if don't get a specific answer?

 

I'll say again, the case for independence is being held to standards that no one else is held to, and for me, risk averse means I want away from that nasty, incompetent nest of vipers at Westminster. 

 

What is the SNP's vision of an independent Scotland? As I've been following them for quite a number of years, I'm still none the wiser. I think Unionists make up this claim.

 

I am wiser to the numerous of other Indy supporting people who put forward ideas, be it from the left, right or centre of the party.

 

I also have my ideas too.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Thats a debate for another day.

 

If you want to decorate the house, first you must get the keys.

 

But is it, as Sturgeon has already made it clear that she'd take Scotland back into the EU, that doesn't sound like there is going to be much or any debate.

 

I'm with Gambo on this, and the other 36% or so of YES voters who also voted to leave the EU and who want complete Independence, a total break from Westminster & Brussels and who find it totally unacceptable to give up that Independence by rushing back into joining the EU.

 

I'll tell you what would be acceptable to me and I suspect a sizable % of the above 36% as well.

That an Independent Scotland should wait for 5 to 10 years after Independence before we revisited the EU question, who knows we might not need the EU, we might be doing just fine outside of it and the people of Scotland in 5 to 10 years time might feel that we have no need or desire to join it, but either way the people of Scotland would have to be given the choice to join the EU.

If that was on the table, then I'd probably go with that.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

But is it, as Sturgeon has already made it clear that she'd take Scotland back into the EU, that doesn't sound like there is going to be much or any debate.

 

I'm with Gambo on this, and the other 36% or so of YES voters who also voted to leave the EU and who want complete Independence, a total break from Westminster & Brussels and who find it totally unacceptable to give up that Independence by rushing back into joining the EU.

 

I'll tell you what would be acceptable to me and I suspect a sizable % of the above 36% as well.

That an Independent Scotland should wait for 5 to 10 years after Independence before we revisited the EU question, who knows we might not need the EU, we might be doing just fine outside of it and the people of Scotland in 5 to 10 years time might feel that we have no need or desire to join it, but either way the people of Scotland would have to be given the choice to join the EU.

If that was on the table, then I'd probably go with that.

I'd go with that, and I'd also be up for a right good chat about the future of the queen and that mob. But these are both good examples of why it's wrong to dismiss independence just because you don't agree with the SNP's vision. 

It's something of an alien concept given our current arrangement but the Scottish people are the ones who would decide the way forward, not the snp

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

But is it, as Sturgeon has already made it clear that she'd take Scotland back into the EU, that doesn't sound like there is going to be much or any debate.

 

I'm with Gambo on this, and the other 36% or so of YES voters who also voted to leave the EU and who want complete Independence, a total break from Westminster & Brussels and who find it totally unacceptable to give up that Independence by rushing back into joining the EU.

 

I'll tell you what would be acceptable to me and I suspect a sizable % of the above 36% as well.

That an Independent Scotland should wait for 5 to 10 years after Independence before we revisited the EU question, who knows we might not need the EU, we might be doing just fine outside of it and the people of Scotland in 5 to 10 years time might feel that we have no need or desire to join it, but either way the people of Scotland would have to be given the choice to join the EU.

If that was on the table, then I'd probably go with that.

 

The worlds a scary place now. IMHO you have a disminishing USA, a powerful Russia and the new super power to be China coming through. 

 

Probably best to be under Europe’s wing. 

[Ministry MK2]

3 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

I think the majority of Scots are fed up with the status quo now. There is a real belief in the country these days and quite rightly so when you see the mess England is in. 

 

People are always fed up of the Status Quo. People are never happy unless they have something to moan about, everybody wants “jam today” and chuck their toys out the pram if they don’t get it. That’s why Governments always take a kicking in mid term elections. 

 

From that perspective being fed up is nothing new. The polls suggest support for Independance is broadly the same as it was. 

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, Ministry MK2 said:

People are always fed up of the Status Quo. People are never happy unless they have something to moan about, everybody wants “jam today” and chuck their toys out the pram if they don’t get it. That’s why Governments always take a kicking in mid term elections. 

 

From that perspective being fed up is nothing new. The polls suggest support for Independance is broadly the same as it was. 

 

It has moved. From 45 to roughly 52% now. I personally know quite a few that have changed. I’m sure there are many Yes supporters too that know people who have flipped or new younger voters coming through. 

 

Thats the reality im afraid. 

 

[Ministry MK2]

2 hours ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

There is no 'status-quo' (or Status Quo, as one them's deid and so they've disbanded) any more: brexit has taken care of that (or will). It's now a question of how to make the best of the absolute clusterfeck with which we are now faced... The onus is equally - or even more so - on the brexiteers, or those who are now "resigned" to go with that flow, to demonstrate that their solution will be "alright on the night" as it is they who are directly and immediately responsible for the radical (and, in my view, catastrophic) changes we are about to undergo.

Totally right, there is pressure on the Brexiteers to prove we can make it work outside the EU.

 

Brexit will come and pass, it will likely not be the distopian vision you portray. 

[Skinny Milinkovic]

Yes then, Yes now, Yes forever. Baffles me that there is still loyalty to the union despite everything that has transpired in the last few years. 

[Space Mackerel]

12 minutes ago, Ministry MK2 said:

Totally right, there is pressure on the Brexiteers to prove we can make it work outside the EU.

 

Brexit will come and pass, it will likely not be the distopian vision you portray. 

 

“Brexit will come and pass” ?

 

Brexit will never be forgotten again by the mass of the Scottish electorate that England rules over the 3 other nations, make no mistake about that.

 

Even if Brexit doesn’t happen, and my money is that it doesn’t, the Union is already damaged beyond repair. You can take that to the bank. 

 

[Ministry MK2]

On 20/09/2018 at 00:10, Cruyff Turn said:

It does.

 

It proves that Ireland can effectively grow their economy because they have the powers to do that where as Scotland does not despite us having a lot more going for us than Ireland does. We have lower unemployment in Scotland and a bigger workforce.

 

Ireland spends 3000 more per head on public services than Scotland does.

 

It is what it is. Accept it, don’t try and spin a negative out of it. It’s irrelevant where Ireland spends their dough. If Scotland had Ireland’s GDP we’d be running at a surplus. Which is entirely feasible if we had the same economic powers. 

Ireland’s economy growth is a house of cards built on top of a sandcastle. It was only a few years ago they had the begging bowl out to the UK and EU asking for a bail out package. Now they are the 5th richest country in the world??.

 

Ireland has positioned itself as a Corporate Tax haven. All your favourite US tax avoiding multinationals Google, Facebook, PayPal, Dell etc domicile themselves in Ireland as they can use loop holes to ensure they only pay 0-3% Corporation Tax. 

 

So now Ireland has this huge GDP making it the richest country in Europe, because on paper these eye watering profits are being registered in Ireland. Except the average salary in Ireland is still below that of the UK??

 

These US multinationals DO employ Irish Nationals, about 25% of the Irish workforce. The question is what will Ireland do if another Tax Haven crops up who are even more keen to seduce Google, Facebook et all?. Suddenly the rug will be pulled and a quarter of their workforce on the dole. These US companies have zero interest or loyalty in Ireland, just to their tax system. 

 

I didnt realise the Scotland Independance movement were now using Ireland as a template for the utopian vision. I thought the Independance movement was all about a progressive society/economy and a break away from the money greed at Westminster and in the City??. I suppose this proves that’s all BS, the Scot Nats want to whore themselves out to any tax avoiding fat cat they can get their hands on.

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Ministry MK2 said:

Ireland’s economy growth is a house of cards built on top of a sandcastle. It was only a few years ago they had the begging bowl out to the UK and EU asking for a bail out package. Now they are the 5th richest country in the world??.

 

Ireland has positioned itself as a Corporate Tax haven. All your favourite US tax avoiding multinationals Google, Facebook, PayPal, Dell etc domicile themselves in Ireland as they can use loop holes to ensure they only pay 0-3% Corporation Tax. 

 

So now Ireland has this huge GDP making it the richest country in Europe, because on paper these eye watering profits are being registered in Ireland. Except the average salary in Ireland is still below that of the UK??

 

These US multinationals DO employ Irish Nationals, about 25% of the Irish workforce. The question is what will Ireland do if another Tax Haven crops up who are even more keen to seduce Google, Facebook et all?. Suddenly the rug will be pulled and a quarter of their workforce on the dole. These US companies have zero interest or loyalty in Ireland, just to their tax system. 

 

I didnt realise the Scotland Independance movement were now using Ireland as a template for the utopian vision. I thought the Independance movement was all about a progressive society/economy and a break away from the money greed at Westminster and in the City??. I suppose this proves that’s all BS, the Scot Nats want to whore themselves out to any tax avoiding fat cat they can get their hands on.

 

Ireland is shite now along with Scotland? ?

 

 

[Ministry MK2]

9 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

“Brexit will come and pass” ?

 

Brexit will never be forgotten again by the mass of the Scottish electorate that England rules over the 3 other nations, make no mistake about that.

 

Even if Brexit doesn’t happen, and my money is that it doesn’t, the Union is already damaged beyond repair. You can take that to the bank. 

 

Not really any point arguing about it. You think one thing about the future of Brexit I think another. Neither of us know how it will turn out. Time will tell I suppose. 

 

WRT the union being damaged beyond repair, we heard the same thing in the immediate aftermath of Indy Ref 1. And here we are 4 years later in an Independant Scotland eh.

[Ministry MK2]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

Ireland is shite now along with Scotland? ?

 

 

Never said Ireland is shite, or Scotland for that matter. Was addressing a point from a previous poster who suggested if Ireland are the 5th richest country in the world, why can’t we do the same.

[SwindonJambo]

29 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

It has moved. From 45 to roughly 52% now. I personally know quite a few that have changed. I’m sure there are many Yes supporters too that know people who have flipped or new younger voters coming through. 

 

Thats the reality im afraid. 

 

Can you post a link to polls that consistently put Yes on 52% ?

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Ministry MK2 said:

Not really any point arguing about it. You think one thing about the future of Brexit I think another. Neither of us know how it will turn out. Time will tell I suppose. 

 

WRT the union being damaged beyond repair, we heard the same thing in the immediate aftermath of Indy Ref 1. And here we are 4 years later in an Independant Scotland eh.

WRT Brexit, it accelerated Scottish independence 100 fold since 2014. Much obliged BTW ?

 

What is the UK’s future as an independent trading nation? Tell us because maybe Mrs May, Farage, D Davies, Juncker and Barnier would like to know too ?

 

 

[Auld Reekin']

30 minutes ago, Ministry MK2 said:

Totally right, there is pressure on the Brexiteers to prove we can make it work outside the EU.   Which they are failing entirely to do.

 

Brexit will come and pass, it will likely not be the distopian vision you portray.   In your opinion, which has no greater authority than mine. The point being that no-one has a fecking clue what "brexit" will actually mean (least of all the current bunch of self-serving and corrupt inadequates and incompetents who are supposed to be governing the UK), nor how it will be brought about, nor what short, medium, and long-term effect it will have on our economy and our citizen's quality of life. But - hey! - who gives a damn'?, let's just jump off that cliff and enjoy the ride, yeah?

 

[Space Mackerel]

9 minutes ago, Ministry MK2 said:

Never said Ireland is shite, or Scotland for that matter. Was addressing a point from a previous poster who suggested if Ireland are the 5th richest country in the world, why can’t we do the same.

 

“It’s a house of cards built on a sandcastle” was your opening line. 

[Space Mackerel]

11 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

Can you post a link to polls that consistently put Yes on 52% ?

 

Ministry MK2 will. He’s on your side. I can’t be bothered. 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Space Mackerel

[Ministry MK2]

4 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

The independence movement isn't a single entity, it's lots of different groups with different ideas of how to do things - I believe in independence, but not the SNP's version and there are many like me. So what answer am I meant to give? How the snp see it? How experts who can't agree think it would pan out?

 

There is no single answer to the questions asked, it would be a matter for democracy to decide, including those who don't want independence! There simply isn't any way to answer the questions that unionists want answered, except to say "this is the mechanism that will decide - a democratic vote"

 

The uk is about to take the riskiest blind step in generations without any proven case and we STILL don't know what that deal will look like - so how can anyone possibly demand that from the independence movement and think it's a show stopper if don't get a specific answer?

 

I'll say again, the case for independence is being held to standards that no one else is held to, and for me, risk averse means I want away from that nasty, incompetent nest of vipers at Westminster. 

I agree with the majority of that. It is impossible for the Independance movement to answer specific questions of how a post Indy-Scotland would work. 

 

However, I think some of the basic questions SHOULD be answered. The fiasco ahead of Indy Ref 1 with reference to currency was off pointing from an undecided voters perspective. Salmond claiming we would continue in a currency union using the GBP, when Osbourne was publicly saying that was a “no deal”. It looked amateurish. 

 

If the Independance movement could put a bit more credible meat onto the bones of points like currency and EU membership, I think it would go a long way to helping win over the undecideds.

[Ministry MK2]

8 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

“It’s a house of cards built on a sandcastle” was your opening line. 

With reference to their economy.

 

I got the feeling from your post you felt I didn’t like the country. I am pretty ambivalent towards Ireland as a nation. 

[SwindonJambo]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

The worlds a scary place now. IMHO you have a disminishing USA, a powerful Russia and the new super power to be China coming through. 

 

Probably best to be under Europe’s wing. 

I think you're confusing the EU with NATO. Britain is a founder member with no plans to leave. I would hope a possible future independent Scotland would join. 

 

I don't think the US is diminished but you're right about China being a rising power. Russia is a one commodity reliant economic basket case ruled by a murderous tyrant. Oil price falls and Russia's screwed. 

 

 

[JamboX2]

9 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Something that those who voted Tory simply as a "no to indy ref" need to square with their consciences.

 

Why? They effectively voted for what they wanted. That's a legitimate choice. If you think conversely those who blindly vote SNP for independence despite policy equally have that on their consciences.

 

I'm no fan of Conservatives. But this is duplicitous stuff Boris. It's the same of any single issue vote. Side with the devil to get your way. 

Edited September 22, 2018 by JamboX2

[JamboX2]

9 hours ago, ri Alban said:

No, the DUP kept her in a job. 

 

The DUP wouldn't have mattered had Scotland not returned 13 Conservative Mps. Those 13 offset wider loses.

 

Scotland massively affected the outcome in 2017. In part because Sturgeon jumped too quickly on a second independence vote allowing Davidson's main argument of no to a second vote. 

[Space Mackerel]

16 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

I think you're confusing the EU with NATO. Britain is a founder member with no plans to leave. I would hope a possible future independent Scotland would join. 

 

I don't think the US is diminished but you're right about China being a rising power. Russia is a one commodity reliant economic basket case ruled by a murderous tyrant. Oil price falls and Russia's screwed. 

 

 

 

If you know anything about geo politics then you might know Russia provides 70% of Europe’s gas supplies, hence it has a foothold over Europe. 

 

What do you think the war is in Syria all about? Qatar wants to build a pipeline through Syria instead of sending its LPG tanker ships through the Suez canal to get its market share to Europe. All about the money. 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Space Mackerel

[Space Mackerel]

6 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

The DUP wouldn't have mattered had Scotland not returned 13 Conservative Mps. Those 13 offset wider loses.

 

Scotland massively affected the outcome in 2017. In part because Sturgeon jumped too quickly on a second independence vote allowing Davidson's main argument of no to a second vote. 

 

Whataboot if the election was a different election result  type post, again.

 

 

[JamboX2]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Whataboot if the election was a different election result  type post, again.

 

 

 

Nope. Someone asked when Scotland last affected an outcome in a general election - 2017.

[SwindonJambo]

4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

If you know anything about geo politics then you might know Russia provides 70% of Europe’s gas supplies, hence it has a foothold over Europe. 

 

What do you think the war is in Syria all about? Qatar wants to build a pipeline through Syria instead of sending its LPG tanker ships through the Suez canal to get its market share to Europe. All about the money. 

Russia supplies 37% of Europe's gas. Half of your figure, but certainly still enough to be able to cause trouble. Bunch of *******s.

[Unknown user]

27 minutes ago, Ministry MK2 said:

I agree with the majority of that. It is impossible for the Independance movement to answer specific questions of how a post Indy-Scotland would work. 

 

However, I think some of the basic questions SHOULD be answered. The fiasco ahead of Indy Ref 1 with reference to currency was off pointing from an undecided voters perspective. Salmond claiming we would continue in a currency union using the GBP, when Osbourne was publicly saying that was a “no deal”. It looked amateurish. 

 

If the Independance movement could put a bit more credible meat onto the bones of points like currency and EU membership, I think it would go a long way to helping win over the undecideds.

 

Currency - we'd keep the pound in the short term whether England particularly fancy it or not, I don't see that there's a realistic alternative to that.  Consensus would be reached democratically on where to go from there. Me, I don't know what direction I'd want, I'm not a currency expert but I'd be listening carefully to the options. My initial thoughts are that EU membership would be years away, even if desired, and relying on someone else's currency is no long term solution for a serious democracy, so I'm probably in favour of a commission to investigate the options for a Scottish currency.

 

EU - we wouldn't be a member on day one and joining is a long, conditional process, so there would simply have to be a national conversation over a period of years to decide whether we'd want/need/be allowed to join.

 

But that's my view, not that of the independence movement. I don't know those guys

[Space Mackerel]

2 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Nope. Someone asked when Scotland last affected an outcome in a general election - 2017.

Maybe if you hadn’t backed the full on Union type propaganda from SLAB and Tories then May might have not won all these seats in Scotland.

 

Should I google a Labour bill board poster from that time?

 

And why are yous sitting in some of  Scotland’s local authorise together by the way? Quite the cosy thing eh.

[Space Mackerel]

6 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

Russia supplies 37% of Europe's gas. Half of your figure, but certainly still enough to be able to cause trouble. Bunch of *******s.

 

Hence why Merkel is moving to pave ways to have more economic ties with Russia rather than US these days. 

Starting to get the bigger picture? 

[Gorgiewave]

9 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Something that those who voted Tory simply as a "no to indy ref" need to square with their consciences.

 

Voting Tory is not evil or a sin. It's capitalism that's allowing us to speak to each other now, it's capitalism that saved Hearts, it's capitalism that pays for the NHS, it's capitalism that takes people out of millennial poverty, it's capitalism that pays for scientific and medical research, it's capitalism (and the Union) that pays for free university tuition in Scotland. The Conservatives are the defenders of capitalism and we should all thank them.

 

[Space Mackerel]

11 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Currency - we'd keep the pound in the short term whether England particularly fancy it or not, I don't see that there's a realistic alternative to that.  Consensus would be reached democratically on where to go from there. Me, I don't know what direction I'd want, I'm not a currency expert but I'd be listening carefully to the options. My initial thoughts are that EU membership would be years away, even if desired, and relying on someone else's currency is no long term solution for a serious democracy, so I'm probably in favour of a commission to investigate the options for a Scottish currency.

 

EU - we wouldn't be a member on day one and joining is a long, conditional process, so there would simply have to be a national conversation over a period of years to decide whether we'd want/need/be allowed to join.

 

But that's my view, not that of the independence movement. I don't know those guys

 

Scottish quid please. 

 

 

[SwindonJambo]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Currency - we'd keep the pound in the short term whether England particularly fancy it or not, I don't see that there's a realistic alternative to that.  Consensus would be reached democratically on where to go from there. Me, I don't know what direction I'd want, I'm not a currency expert but I'd be listening carefully to the options. My initial thoughts are that EU membership would be years away, even if desired, and relying on someone else's currency is no long term solution for a serious democracy, so I'm probably in favour of a commission to investigate the options for a Scottish currency.

 

EU - we wouldn't be a member on day one and joining is a long, conditional process, so there would simply have to be a national conversation over a period of years to decide whether we'd want/need/be allowed to join.

 

But that's my view, not that of the independence movement. I don't know those guys

 

Sensible. You’ll be well aware that full EU membership would commit Scotland to the Euro at some point, though that said the Poles and Czechs have held out for 14 years so far with the Zloty and Koruna respectively!. On the other hand, EEA membership would allow Scotland to keep its own currency, as Norway does. For Scotland to be truly independent, it would need its own currency and Central Bank. It might be quite weak to start with but it would float and find its level. The Euro is the Deutschmark in disguise and suits one country.

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

Scotland was formed in 843 AD, England didn’t come into being till after the Battle of Hastings 1066, that was 927 AD

 

 

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Scottish quid please. 

 

 

1707, not 1770

[ri Alban]

3 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

Scotland was formed in 843 AD, England didn’t come into being till after the Battle of Hastings 1066, that was 927 AD

 

 

Here's some useless information for you. 

 

Athelstan is considered the first king of the English from 927, tho it still had seperate kingdoms. 

In 1066 William the conqueror turned it into greater Normandy. King Malky yielded to him as overlord, (A bit of a bad habit for Scots) but Scotland remained unconquered. 

The name England became established from the 14th century from different variations like ingland, Engleland etc...  But hey, it took us to the 13th century to establish all of Scotland. (Orkney and Shetland came a wee bit later), so... you know.  

 

Never conquered(Occupied sometimes)  but we gave our country away, twice!!  Pathetic. 

 

 

 

Saor Alba!!!

 

 

[ri Alban]

No deal Brexit is a gift from the independence gods.

[Boris]

7 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Why? They effectively voted for what they wanted. That's a legitimate choice. If you think conversely those who blindly vote SNP for independence despite policy equally have that on their consciences.

 

I'm no fan of Conservatives. But this is duplicitous stuff Boris. It's the same of any single issue vote. Side with the devil to get your way. 

 

Why not Labour, or Lib Dem? For all the Scottish Tory leaders pontification a, look at how those Tory MPs have voted at Westminster. Not the cuddly image Ruth is trying to project.

 

If folk want to vote Tory to stop the SNP. As they see it, go for it. But equally if you do, you are also responsible for the consequences of doing so. Consequences that at Westminster far outweigh stopping a second Indy ref. It's a Holyrood issue, primarily, so by casting a protest vote in favour of the Tories, you get a whole lot more into the bargain.

[Boris]

6 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Voting Tory is not evil or a sin. It's capitalism that's allowing us to speak to each other now, it's capitalism that saved Hearts, it's capitalism that pays for the NHS, it's capitalism that takes people out of millennial poverty, it's capitalism that pays for scientific and medical research, it's capitalism (and the Union) that pays for free university tuition in Scotland. The Conservatives are the defenders of capitalism and we should all thank them.

 

 

All parties support capitalism, the Tories don't have dibs on it.

 

If anything, your graph above shows how the capitalist nations got rich on the exploitation of China, India and Africa. Yay capitalism!

[Jambo-Jimbo]

7 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Scottish quid please. 

 

 

 

Only if it was on parity with Sterling, which it hasn't been throughout history.

In the 1460's 1 Pound Sterling was worth 4 Scots pounds, by the 1560's it was 5 Scots pound to 1 pound sterling and by the time of James VI (James I of England) the value of the Scots Pound was fixed at 12 Scots pounds for every one pound sterling. http://www.scan.org.uk/knowledgebase/topics/moneyandbanking_topic.htm

 

Even nowadays Scottish pounds are apparently worth less then their English counterparts.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14999096.Dubai_bureau_offers_different_exchange_rates_for__Scottish_pound__and_pound_Sterling/

 

Scroll down and read some of the first few comments, I like particuarly the idea of the first comment ?

 

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Why not Labour, or Lib Dem? For all the Scottish Tory leaders pontification a, look at how those Tory MPs have voted at Westminster. Not the cuddly image Ruth is trying to project.

 

If folk want to vote Tory to stop the SNP. As they see it, go for it. But equally if you do, you are also responsible for the consequences of doing so. Consequences that at Westminster far outweigh stopping a second Indy ref. It's a Holyrood issue, primarily, so by casting a protest vote in favour of the Tories, you get a whole lot more into the bargain.

 

I'm not absolving anyone of blame. The same applies to those who voted LibDem in 2010. But here's the catch, we should accept we live in a representative democracy and accept compromise and cross party working. We don't. Nor do people seem to vote on the basis of either the calibre of local candidates or policies. We live in an era of identity politics in Scotland on independence and in the UK on brexit. The genie is out the bottle and won't go back in for a while yet.

 

If you vote for one party to stop x doing y or to achieve z then you elevate one issue above all else and sacrifice your political nuance for one issue. Whatever that is.

 

But I would also argue the Tories are progressively being detoxified in Scotland. Brexit will massively affect that project. But we've so far seen identity politics play well for both the largest parties in Scotland to the detriment of others (Lab/Lib/Green/Rise etc). I don't see that being reversed yet.

 

Frankly the tunnel vision, echo chamber of social media hasn't helped politics as much as it should've. I would be delighted if politicians removed themselves from it. 

[jack D and coke]

12 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

But is it, as Sturgeon has already made it clear that she'd take Scotland back into the EU, that doesn't sound like there is going to be much or any debate.

 

I'm with Gambo on this, and the other 36% or so of YES voters who also voted to leave the EU and who want complete Independence, a total break from Westminster & Brussels and who find it totally unacceptable to give up that Independence by rushing back into joining the EU.

 

I'll tell you what would be acceptable to me and I suspect a sizable % of the above 36% as well.

That an Independent Scotland should wait for 5 to 10 years after Independence before we revisited the EU question, who knows we might not need the EU, we might be doing just fine outside of it and the people of Scotland in 5 to 10 years time might feel that we have no need or desire to join it, but either way the people of Scotland would have to be given the choice to join the EU.

If that was on the table, then I'd probably go with that.

Yeah that’s how I feel too. Let’s get independence first then see about joining. 

[JamboX2]

8 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

Maybe if you hadn’t backed the full on Union type propaganda from SLAB and Tories then May might have not won all these seats in Scotland.

 

Should I google a Labour bill board poster from that time?

 

And why are yous sitting in some of  Scotland’s local authorise together by the way? Quite the cosy thing eh.

 

I'm not in the party.

 

I replied to Coconut Doug earlier debunking a lot of this stuff. Labour are in coalition at a local level with more SNP councillors than Tory. The Aberdeen Group have been suspended and the West Lothian Group have a supply deal. The SNP have used Tory supply and confidence across Scotland and at Holyrood so I see no real issue in it.

 

I'm in favour of local democracy and autonomy of decision makers at a local level. I left the party as I'm not a tribalist and I never put in the dog work for it to be worth my membership. I don't vote Tory but that doesn't exclude me from saying where there's agreement there should be cross party working. The SNP stole Tory education policies for their shelved Education bill on school governance and testing. So it's "no just Labour" doing deals here. 

 

But then again in the majority of those 13 seats the SNP lost Labour weren't even close to winning. The Tories win rural and northern and borders seats from the SNP where 20 to 30 years ago they traditionally won seats. Labour has never done well in those areas. I don't think you can lay the blame for those loses at Labour's door (especially given at the time the SNP ridiculed a muddled campaign by Labour in the 17 election in Scotland!). 

 

But to go back to the point,  your fellow Scots saved May and had a huge impact on the outcome of that election. 

[JamboX2]

12 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

But is it, as Sturgeon has already made it clear that she'd take Scotland back into the EU, that doesn't sound like there is going to be much or any debate.

 

I'm with Gambo on this, and the other 36% or so of YES voters who also voted to leave the EU and who want complete Independence, a total break from Westminster & Brussels and who find it totally unacceptable to give up that Independence by rushing back into joining the EU.

 

I'll tell you what would be acceptable to me and I suspect a sizable % of the above 36% as well.

That an Independent Scotland should wait for 5 to 10 years after Independence before we revisited the EU question, who knows we might not need the EU, we might be doing just fine outside of it and the people of Scotland in 5 to 10 years time might feel that we have no need or desire to join it, but either way the people of Scotland would have to be given the choice to join the EU.

If that was on the table, then I'd probably go with that.

 

I cannot in all honesty think of a proposition so poorly designed and so destructive in it's consequences as this for people in the event of an independent Scotland.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

18 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

I cannot in all honesty think of a proposition so poorly designed and so destructive in it's consequences as this for people in the event of an independent Scotland.

 

Could you expand on why you think this?

 

IMO what would be destructive is to apply to join the EU immediately after, what will sadly and in all probability be a very divisive second indyref, certainly based upon the way and aftermath that recent referendum's have been conducted, Scotland would be divided and to then further divide the population along Pro & Anti EU lines would only damage the longterm stabilty of a fledgling nation.

 

What is needed is calm heads and a period of stabilty not a period of even more divisiveness amongst the electorate.

[redjambo]

Here's a little hint for those Nationalists who want to persuade folk like me to join their cause, or at least vote for Independence. We don't give a flying crap what happened in the Middle Ages or hundreds of years ago. The guys who obsess over that are the guys you already have in your ranks. It's now and the future we care about. It's practicalities. So leave that crap and the "Saor Alba!!!"'s out.

 

For those who may actually be anti-Independence but are deep behind enemy lines spouting this sort of bilge to put the rest of us off the Independence movement and its followers - well done, you're doing a great job.